Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[chocolatejr9]

The sad thing is that the Microsoft Characters would be the least likely to return followed by Square-Enix who always seems to be difficult to deal with (although they have been great working with Sakurai). I don't see Capcom, Namco, or Sega pulling their reps. I think those three like having their IP in Smash for name recognition. Konami is a mystery. I think Snake was pulled from 4 because of the situation with his developer leaving Konami and the bad blood. Although Snake is a great add, I felt like Simon Belmont is an even better fit for Smash than Snake.

I still cannot believe that Rayman and Ryu Hayabusa have NOT made it in. Both Komei-Tecmo and Ubisoft are very active on Nintendo consoles and both characters just make too much sense for Smash. Rayman has been in the top 25 in most Smash Ballots pre-Ultimate (more than half the characters in front of him have been added to Smash to date).

To be fair, Rayman is a literal who as far as Japan is concerned...

 

[Dinoman96]

The sad thing is that the Microsoft Characters would be the least likely to return

Why?

 

[Guynamednelson]

sell people on the characters you want to see so people will be excited for them

yeah nah that's impossible they'd focus too much on qualities like being assists or their grandmas not recognizing them

 

[3BitSaurus]

I can definitely understand why people think the last one will be more low key. People love to point to Bayo, but looking at all of the other cycles (), it's very easy to understand why it's hard to see "bigger" picks being last. If Sora or Crash happens as CP11, they happens and I'll be happy, but there's a big difference between wanting a character and seeing them as likely.

Actually sell people on the characters you want to see so people will be excited for them instead of going "Oh yeah they'd be disappointing therefore they're likely to happen" which just turns people away or throwing yet ANOTHER tantrum because people aren't expecting who you expect.

Grow the **** up already.

...The thing that several users have tried, but almost never succeed because most people will only talk about things they're familiar with?

Honestly, you're not making things any better.

 

[MooMew64]

View attachment 317233

In the smash fanbase?...

it's a bold new direction

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

Given how Nintendo and Microsoft are on great terms and Steve actively promotes both Smash and Minecraft, I’d say Microsoft characters have a very high chance of returning next Smash.

 

[Bobthealligator]

Speaking as probably the #1 Cinderace guy here, yeah, peeps would be mad. Pokemon ain't in good graces with people at the moment, and a Pokemon is viewed as a doomsday scenario by the Smash community.

However...Why not just...Respect each other's opinions? And also not take these opinions and takes about video games so personally? Like, real talk: If people get mad at a character you like, just laugh it off and realize it ain't important. It really isn't. If you like the character, and they bring you joy...Why does it matter if it's the same for the other person?

Don't get me wrong, if Cinderace makes it in, I'll definitely find the expected salt hilarious, but I'm also not gonna be antagonistic towards people. Heck, I'd rather talk about why I think they'd be cool:

- Cool moveset potential behind an anime as heck rabbit that shoots giant flaming soccer balls.

- Speedy character, which is always a blast to play.

- Adorable as heck.

I could go on and in much more detail, but ya get what I mean.

TL;DR: Stop gettin' upset at other people's Smash opinions. Coming from someone that let the Byleth hate get under their skin: It ain't healthy, it'll make you miserable, and quite possibly, ruin the game for you. Just...Learn to let things go.

I don't want a Pokemon (I also hate Cinderace's design, sorry) but I wouldn't be upset if we did get a Pokemon. A lot of the Pokemon characters feel distinct and there are definitely ways to make most of them work in a fun and interesting way, and Sword and Shield's soundtrack is bangin'

 

[MooMew64]

Given how Nintendo and Microsoft are on great terms and Steve actively promotes both Smash and Minecraft, I’d say Microsoft characters have a very high chance of returning next Smash.

Steve and Banjo both feel pretty safe assuming this is a partnership that lasts. Bonus points if Phil is still head of Xbox come next Smash.

 

[Dinoman96]

Given how Nintendo and Microsoft are on great terms and Steve actively promotes both Smash and Minecraft, I’d say Microsoft characters have a very high chance of returning next Smash.

Yeah that's the thing, I don't see a world where Nintendo doesn't bring back Steve and Minecraft for Smash Bros., especially considering how much time they put into negiotating for it to happen in Ultimate.

And obviously if they get Steve back, then no reason to not get Banjo as well.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

The thing that several users have tried, but almost never succeed because most people will only talk aabout things they're familiar with?

Idk man, Trapezium got over 50 likes about Timesplitters, something most pwople here wouldn't be able to recognize without him constantly hyping it up. Meanwhile Nelson only talks about what he likes when saying everyone's part of a wicked hivemind because they don't agree with him on likelyhood even if everyone would like the character. It's one thing to sell people on something, like, if I said "We should talk about Miriam BUT YOU CULTISTS WON'T ACCEPT THAT SHE'S HAPPENING AND YOU MUST PREPARE FOR THE DAY OF RUIN WHEN YOUR FALSE IDOL CRASH DOESN'T MAKE IT IN", chances are people wouldn't be too thrilled about giving me the time of day to talk about my favourite

 

[volbound1700]

Why?

Microsoft is technically a rival company to Nintendo with the whole Xbox thing. They are also a US-based company and it is harder for the Smash team to work with groups outside of Japan. I think any Western-based company will always be iffy with Smash representative (in fact I think Banjo and Steve are the only two pure Western characters that we have on the game to date).

 

[PK Duststorm]

There is some truth to the business model of having the moneymakers early, but if you subscribe to that...

Well sure maybe you can say Byleth was a letdown to you after all third parties, but remember we started dlc wave 1 with Plant.... and started wave 2 with Min Min.

I absolutely adore everything about Min Min and what she brought to the table. I will probably never play Arms, but I love the music and character design. Min min was personally a huge hype refill for me after byleth.
Plant wasn't part of a pass, sure. He didnt have to sell early copies of Pass 1 and copies of the game like Joker, Hero and Banjo did. But Terry and Byleth still have to sell not only their own packs, but help sell the Pass as a package deal.
That's why you can buy individuals or the pass. Pass 1 ended with a first party, but it doesnt indicate a budget being pushed or an easy spot to throw in a dud. To the team who made these fighters, they arent duds. And if passes need to be front loaded to maximize sales, well Min Min starting one surely means shes at least as viable as Joker right? Or does that require some goalposts to be moved? My point being that each of these fighters have been placed on the same pedestal.


And comparing previous games' "finales" is a bit off as well. The first 3 games didnt have development and advertising cycles like 4 and Ultinate have. Brawl started the overall cinematic approach to character introductions, but Rob wasnt there to serve as a finale. A lot of Brawl development cycle misinformation still lingers here: Sonic didnt delay brawl, wolf Tink and Puff were the last characters in development as stated in interviews and the CSS in ultimate. Game and Watch wasnt the finale of melee, he was the last surprise bonus character.


And even going for the stretch that is recognizing Duck Hunt, Bayo/Corrin, Incineroar/Ken/Plant, and Byleth as finales is failing to recognize something obvious: none of them are finales. The development cycle and advertising model established by 4 is still ongoing. Sure, these characters might be the conclusions to an arc of development, and I'd much rather debate that perspective.

Smash gives spotlight to everyone included. The last reveal will just be that to me: the final reveal.

 

[Dinoman96]

Microsoft is technically a rival company to Nintendo with the whole Xbox thing. They are also a US-based company and it is harder for the Smash team to work with groups outside of Japan. I think any Western-based company will always be iffy with Smash representative (in fact I think Banjo and Steve are the only two pure Western characters that we have on the game to date).

Yeah, but Microsoft also owns Minecraft, an IP Nintendo very clearly has lots of interest in and was probably the key to getting Microsoft involved with Smash.

Minecraft isn't just some popular IP, it's the most popular game IP of all time and I don't see Nintendo willing to part ways with it, thus they'll continue to have a relationship with Microsoft.

 

[volbound1700]

To be fair, Rayman is a literal who as far as Japan is concerned...

Kind of. He isn't totally unknown because he has scored high in Worldwide Smash ballots, not just Japan. Either his Western appeal was so high that it bumped him over other characters or he does have a following in Japan. I did a Google Search to try to find something. You can read this post that provides something of a summary about his Smash Ballot performance:

Reddit - Dive into anything

www.reddit.com

I think he was one of the highest third-party requests after Banjo. Not sure Nintendo uses the ballot a lot though because a lot of characters that didn't score high on the ballot (even third-parties) have made it in over him.

 

[Bobthealligator]

Kind of. He isn't totally unknown because he has scored high in Worldwide Smash ballots, not just Japan. Either his Western appeal was so high that it bumped him over other characters or he does have a following in Japan. I did a Google Search to try to find something. You can read this post that provides something of a summary about his Smash Ballot performance:

Reddit - Dive into anything

www.reddit.com

I think he was one of the highest third-party requests after Banjo. Not sure Nintendo uses the ballot a lot though because a lot of characters that didn't score high on the ballot (even third-parties) have made it in over him.

So sort of like how Reimu is talked about a lot in Western Smash Circles?

 

[3BitSaurus]

Idk man, Trapezium got over 50 likes about Timesplitters, something most pwople here wouldn't be able to recognize without him constantly hyping it up. Meanwhile Nelson only talks about what he likes when saying everyone's part of a wicked hivemind because they don't agree with him on likelyhood even if everyone would like the character. It's one thing to sell people on something, like, if I said "We should talk about Miriam BUT YOU CULTISTS WON'T ACCEPT THAT SHE'S HAPPENING AND YOU MUST PREPARE FOR THE DAY OF RUIN WHEN YOUR FALSE IDOL CRASH DOESN'T MAKE IT IN", chances are people wouldn't be too thrilled about giving me the time of day to talk about my favourite

I mean, Trapezium is the exception rather than the rule. There's a reason we say he literally memed Cortez inside our hearts (which he truly has, btw).

And here's the thing: literally yesterday, Nelson was talking about how he doesn't think one of my MWs is likely or wanted by him. There's no reason for me to take it personally. He's also tried what you and Schnee suggested more than once in recent times, but as usually happens when you comment on someone outside of this thread's expertise, it got ignored pretty quickly.

Which is okay too - I can't comment on Lara Croft's chances to save my life, but a lot of people here can't comment on LoL either.

A lot of people here have far different expectations than me, but that's okay. And even though imo Nelson is a bit guilty of being a bit too pessimistic at times, I can look beyond that and see the general point that's being made.

TLDR: y'all need to chill, please. There's no need to keep bashing each other and assuming bad faith in arguments about funny haha party fighter.

 

[PeridotGX]

I think the best option for the next game, assuming that a lot of characters are cut no matter what, is to add as many newcomers as possible to make up for it. Here's a roster I made.

50 characters, and almost half of them are newcomers. There are some tough cuts, but the large number of newcomers should make up for it.

 

[JustKindaBoredUKno]

(On Microsoft characters) IMHO it's still up in the air. They have gotten along very very well lately, but money is money and licensing is licensing. I've got a handful of Xbox buddies that aren't big Nintendo fans, complaining that Microsoft isn't getting enough out of it. To paraphrase; why is Microsoft simping so hard for Nintendo when Xbox players don't get anything?

And to be fair, it does seem pretty one sided so far. As stated above me, Phil has been the key component in most of this for sure. Should he leave that position, or should some shareholders and bigwigs start asking the same questions, it could fall apart pretty quickly.


That all changes, of course, if Game Pass actually does come to Switch.

 

[SKX31]

I'd prefer him to release as CP10 - I could see him getting utterly insane in the hands of professional players, in ways that the developers (or I) might not expect/anticipate, so having more time to release balance patches seems like it might help. I think they've learned their lesson from Smash 4 Bayonetta and have a better idea of how to balance characters like that (none of the DLC characters so far have been especially overpowered), but there's no way to know for sure.

FTR, that's already happened to a large extent with , where professional players discovered a lot of different (likely unintentional) things like Elytra being able to hit any ledgehangs from the ground, and Steve being able to loop certain attacks as part of his combo strings. Wunderwaft has chronicled them in the competitive thread. I'm pointing out since yes, Dante would probably experience a lot of the same stuff.

We'll have to see how impactful those actually are, but chances are pretty good it won't be as overpowered / overcentralizing as Brawl MK or 4 Bayo were because they learned their lesson. And because Steve hasn't been overwhelming the online (or the local offline) tourneys so far. Dante would be probably in the same boat as Steve where it isn't overpowering given how they handled Steve.

Yeah, but Microsoft also owns Minecraft, an IP Nintendo very clearly has lots of interest in and was probably the key to getting Microsoft involved with Smash.

Minecraft isn't just some popular IP, it's the most popular game IP of all time and I don't see Nintendo willing to part ways with it, thus they'll continue to have a relationship with Microsoft.

Incidentally, that unwillingness to part with something is going to play a factor if Nintendo wants to continue expanding or anything like that. I'm not just talking about Tencent (although Nintendo's current alliance with them is certainly part of it) but also their workings with Microsoft, Universal or other partners where it's multipronged; I get the impression that those cases are for the long haul.

 

[volbound1700]

Yeah, but Microsoft also owns Minecraft, an IP Nintendo very clearly has lots of interest in and was probably the key to getting Microsoft involved with Smash.

Minecraft isn't just some popular IP, it's the most popular game IP of all time and I don't see Nintendo willing to part ways with it, thus they'll continue to have a relationship with Microsoft.

Microsoft may not want to go back on Nintendo. You don't know the future. I just think the Microsoft, as well as possible Square-Enix, characters are the least likely to be back for the next Smash.

So sort of like how Reimu is talked about a lot in Western Smash Circles?

So sort of like how Reimu is talked about a lot in Western Smash Circles?

Reimu has a shot. I think Rayman is more well-known in Japan than we think. Ubisoft loves to spam him everywhere kind of like Sega and Sonic (which isn't necessarily a bad thing). I will give it to you that he is probably more obscure than some of the other third parties added.

 

[Dinoman96]

Microsoft may not want to go back on Nintendo. You don't know the future.

I sincerely doubt Minecraft will stop appearing on non-Xbox platforms.

 

[N3ON]

What people are looking past is that if Nintendo rebuilds the Smash roster in the next title, which is usually how they do things, characters aren’t going to make it back simply because they won’t be able to achieve the same numbers as Ultimate. Mix that with the fact that they need to provide a pool of newcomers who take priority and the stable of veterans is going to be eaten into even more. And that’s going to be the reason a lot of characters don’t return: simply because time and resources are finite, and they weren’t priority.

And that will affect first and third parties alike, even if the relationship between companies hasn’t changed one bit.

 

[3BitSaurus]

FTR, that's already happened to a large extent with , where professional players discovered a lot of different (likely unintentional) things like Elytra being able to hit any ledgehangs from the ground, and Steve being able to loop certain attacks as part of his combo strings. @Wunderwaft has chronicled them in the competitive thread. I'm pointing out since yes, Dante would probably experience a lot of the same stuff.

We'll have to see how impactful those actually are, but chances are pretty good it won't be as overpowered / overcentralizing as Brawl MK or 4 Bayo were because they learned their lesson. And because Steve hasn't been overwhelming the online (or the local offline) tourneys so far. Dante would be probably in the same boat as Steve where it isn't overpowering given how they handled Steve.

Hmm, what if they gave Dante low damage on normals, but fixed or low knockback for some moves? In theory, that would allow him to focus on combos even at high percents, no?

I've only played the beginning of DMC3, so I could be wrong, but the crux of combat is about juggling and comboing - even more than Bayonetta, where I kinda wanted to get Wicked Weaves or Torture Attacks as frequently as possible for more damage.

 

[Schnee117]

yeah nah that's impossible they'd focus too much on qualities like being assists or whatever

That's not an excuse.

...The thing that several users have tried, but almost never succeed because most people will only talk about things they're familiar with?

Honestly, you're not making things any better.

Then people aren't trying enough or they're going about it the wrong way.
You people want change? Then be the change you want to see, keep trying instead of giving up on the first go.

Falcom didn't get traction because SharkLord stopped going on about it, they kept talking about it where possible in a positive manner, no dragging anyone or anything else down to prop it up. No "Oh wouldn't it be terrible if it were a guessing game" type deals or whatever.

Just sheer positive vibes and persistence.

 

[Louie G.]

I think there are a few things to acknowledge about the whole "ending on a low note" thing. The most interesting one is probably that we've never been in the position where we may very well be completely done at E3 - everyone seems to have different opinions of what E3 entails too, but more often than not we see at least one major "hype" crowd-pleaser reveal. I think if we only get one new reveal at E3 people's expectations will be tempered further for the final pick, but if we get two then one of those reveals is bound to be pretty exciting at large. At least IMO.

And then there's of course Bayonetta, the character people often (rightfully) point toward to show the final character doesn't need to be arbitrarily underwhelming. But in the opposite defense, Ryu and Cloud came before Bayonetta and gives her VERY steep competition hype-wise. I feel like with where we're at right now, Steve and Sephiroth provide a similarly lofty standard. There are plenty of characters who would generally not be underwhelming in a vacuum but will be judged up against what came prior and seen as a bit less exciting by proxy. I guess if you're speaking relative, it's safe to say that MOST of the characters we could see aren't quite on the level of well... the mascot of the biggest game in the world, and one of the most iconic villains in gaming.

I'd buy into the low expectations stuff myself if Nintendo had stronger options right now. It seems unlikely we'll get a Corrin or a Byleth - the stars just aren't aligning for any promotional Nintendo pick at the moment (Pokemon is moving on from Gen 8, Octoling is uncertain because of the Callie and Marie costumes, Ayumi is cool but... not seeing it), and with two first parties already in tow I'm convinced they're just not following that trend that has apparently been set by Smash 4 DLC and FP1 prior. Pretty sure we'll end on two third parties, which by default will probably be received better than a flavor of the month Switch character. But I dunno. That's just my two cents on the sentiment.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I mean, Trapezium is the exception rather than the rule. There's a reason we say he literally memed Cortez inside our hearts (which he truly has, btw).

And here's the thing: literally yesterday, Nelson was talking about how he doesn't think one of my MWs is likely or wanted by him. There's no reason for me to take it personally. He's also tried what you and Schnee suggested more than once in recent times, but as usually happens when you comment on someone outside of this thread's expertise, it got ignored pretty quickly.

Which is okay too - I can't comment on Lara Croft's chances to save my life, but a lotof people here can't comment on LoL either.

A lot of people here have far different expectations than me, but that's okay. And even though imo Nelson is a bit guilty of being a bit too pessimistic at times, I can look beyond that and see the general point that's being made.

TLDR: y'all need to chill, please. There's no need to keep bashing each other and assuming bad faith in arguments about funny haha party fighter.

Ok but everyone here's familiar with Adol after a good amount of shilling. Everyone here's somewhat familiar with League after a good amount of shilling. The core difference is how much effort you're willing to put into shilling your character, I know I did that for a while with Sol about a year and a half ago as he didn't get talked about much and now Sol's discussed somewhat commonly and when it happens, very favourably. And when your form of character shilling ends up being to insult people who like a popular character, people just won't be interested. If I said "Kiryu would be great and anyone who likes Arle should be punched in the face", would you or other Arle fans want to talk about how cool Kiryu would be after I **** on you? Doesn't help that lack of familiarity isn't the issue with who Nelson wants, it's that Nelson wants a character everyone knows enough about and has been discussed for well over a decade in Smash speculation, at some point, people will have talked about everything they could talk about involving the character, meaning it's not lack of interest in the character but lack of interest in discussion, which Isaac has a unique case like with Waluigi.



Also speaking of Arle, Trails of Azure has a Puyo Puyo minigame which I've sunk about half an hour into today and I must say, I'm kinda hooked now

 

[MooMew64]

A big thing that helps Steve is Minecraft has a huge audience in Japan. Not to mention MC's audience and Nintendo's audience compliment each other perfectly, TBH: MC itself has a very Nintendo vibe about it.

I really don't see us ever losing third parties like , , , ,or : Nintendo relations with these companies are, at the moment, super healthy. As I myself stated last night, these things can obviously change, but I feel something catastrophic would have to happen between Nintendo and these companies to lose these IPs.

If they're cut, it would most likely come down to resources rather than relations or negotiations, and even then, I really feel at the barest minimum characters like , and are pretty safe given how iconic they are to the Nintendo community and how big a deal they are to Nintendo fans.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

The certainty that the final character would be as expensive as earlier ones is based on desire and nothing else. Bayonetta might be "proof" that finales aren't lame, but she would be cheaper than Ryu and Cloud. Byleth doesn't require the same licensing fees as the four third-parties in FP1. Incineroar didn't have a stage made for it. People wanted the ESRB leak to be fake because of the characters it included, some of which were clones and a character that was this close to being cut, and even then he kinda feels incomplete. Wolf was initially hated, and being able to reuse Fox assets was why he got in.

And yes, I know what you addressed wasn't the cost of the fighters, but hype and cost can be usually connected. Steve and Sephiroth are two major hype bombs in FP2, and guess what? They'd be ****ing expensive.

That is...a really good point. I hadn’t considered the budget spread and I can definitely see the budget for the final two being on the non-Sepiroth side.

I guess it's because a lot of the games/DLC have ended on a relatively "low" note.

Not sure who the N64 game's last reveal was - I'd guess Ness, since I believe he's toughest to unlock, but I don't think the original site acted like a blog (unless the Japanese site was different).

The last Melee reveal was, from what I recall, Mr. Game & Watch (he's the last character that you unlock), which was probably an example of a character where people would literally respond to with "who?" (I know that the Game & Watch galleries on the Game Boy were a thing, but I don't think people would expect an amalgamation of 20+ unrelated Game & Watch games to be the final character)

Brawl's reveals ended with either Wolf or ROB. I think the last few characters wound up getting leaked, and they were met with disbelief, to say the least.

The last base game reveal for Smash 4 was the dog from Duck Hunt, or Dark Pit considering that he didn't get his own trailer and we didn't even know that he was playable until the 3DS version came out. The last Smash 4 DLC reveal was Bayonetta, though the Smash Ballot muddies that up a bit. (the last one fully picked by Nintendo/the developers was Corrin)

Then for Smash Ultimate, the base game ended off with Ken and Incineroar, while the first season pass ended off with Byleth.

All of these characters have their fans, to be sure, and plenty of people wanted to see them (I voted for Bayonetta in the Smash Ballot, and I think that when the concept of echo fighters was announced, a lot of people expected that we'd get Ken), but compared to the likes of Bowser, Sonic, Mega Man, Cloud, Ridley/K. Rool, and Banjo (among others), they weren't the highest points of their respective groups. (Bayonetta was extremely exciting for me, but I can see how people not familiar with the franchise might view her as a disappointing pick after Cloud and Ryu - I can't recall what kind of reaction she got for her inclusion, since most of the complaints that I recall were about her gameplay)

That is true, but I’d argue base game is a different beast when it comes to release schedules since DLC characters are worked on in batches of three whereas base game is more of a free-for-all if I’m not mistaken, though the base games ending with Incineroar et al doesn’t help the image of course.

It mostly stems from how badly people got burned by the base roster and by Byleth. I think people have gradually turned more cynical, I know I have because I don't want to get burned again. I believed the Grinch Leak and I really thought Doomguy was FP5 because people were inspecting the area around Sakurai in the preview tweet for the presentation and people saw orange which was from Byleth's sword but I really thought it was from Doomguy's armor. Just mistakes like those have taught me to be more cautiously optimistic.

And another thing is that it just makes business sense to put all the hype characters anywhere but the very last spot. I do believe that Crash will be next because Nintendo planned this pass out two years in advanced. But as for the last spot? No. It makes much more sense to have characters like Steve, Sephiroth, and Crash in the beginning and even in the middle but not at the very end because at that point Nintendo got the majority of the sales that the pass was going to get in so at that point they could throw in a shill pick if they wanted to. They wouldn't care, they already got the positive press and sales from earlier characters. So if they wanted to throw in Ayumi for example, they can do that. Characters like Crash and Master Chief are just too big of a deal to save for the very last, even if I would love for this game to end on a high note but keep in mind Smash reveals have historically ended on a lesser note. That has been the case even before Smash 4 and Ultimate like with Brawl revealing characters like R.O.B and Wolf at the end.

As a hype-checking measure I can see people erring on the side of caution, but to see it as an inevitability that leaves no room for hope either has to be a very cynical and burned person or something I missed. Turns out budget is a pretty good reason to be sceptical on more than a personal “expect the worst, hope for the best” scenario. Pass sales also makes sense, though at the tail end of the pass already I don’t see how a swap of CP10 and CP11 would be a drastic change. Overall, I can see why people would push the idea that CP11 isn’t going to be hype based on budget and pass sales, but I always raised an eyebrow when people would bring it up as a natural continuation of a pattern set in the time of unlockable characters and base game newcomer batches.

 

[osby]

I think the best option for the next game, assuming that a lot of characters are cut no matter what, is to add as many newcomers as possible to make up for it. Here's a roster I made.

View attachment 317239​

50 characters, and almost half of them are newcomers. There are some tough cuts, but the large number of newcomers should make up for it.

I mean, a lot of newcomers are nice... But this looks like you just cut as many characters as possible for the sake of it.

Dark Matter and Gardevoir are cool but those people really want them over Meta Knight and Mewtwo? Or why some characters are directly replaced by less popular characters from their series?

 

[volbound1700]

I think there are a few things to acknowledge about the whole "ending on a low note" thing. The most interesting one is probably that we've never been in the position where we may very well be completely done at E3 - everyone seems to have different opinions of what E3 entails too, but more often than not we see at least one major "hype" crowd-pleaser reveal. I think if we only get one new reveal at E3 people's expectations will be tempered further for the final pick, but if we get two then one of those reveals is bound to be pretty exciting at large. At least IMO.

And then there's of course Bayonetta, the character people often (rightfully) point toward to show the final character doesn't need to be arbitrarily underwhelming. But in the opposite defense, Ryu and Cloud came before Bayonetta and gives her VERY steep competition hype-wise. I feel like with where we're at right now, Steve and Sephiroth provide a similarly lofty standard. There are plenty of characters who would generally not be underwhelming in a vacuum but will be judged up against what came prior and seen as a bit less exciting by proxy. I guess if you're speaking relative, it's safe to say that MOST of the characters we could see aren't quite on the level of well... the mascot of the biggest game in the world, and one of the most iconic villains in gaming.

I'd buy into the low expectations stuff myself if Nintendo had stronger options right now. It seems unlikely we'll get a Corrin or a Byleth - the stars just aren't aligning for any promotional Nintendo pick at the moment (Pokemon is moving on from Gen 8, Octoling is uncertain because of the Callie and Marie costumes, Ayumi is cool but... not seeing it), and with two first parties already in tow I'm convinced they're just not following that trend that has apparently been set by Smash 4 DLC and FP1 prior. Pretty sure we'll end on two third parties, which by default will probably be received better than a flavor of the month Switch character. But I dunno. That's just my two cents on the sentiment.

Although this might not be underwhelming, the stars are aligning for a potential Zelda character. The franchise is probably overdue for a new character. I just hope it isn't another Link/Zelda/Ganon character but a unique one. Impa makes the most sense. The character played a decent role in the Originals, OOT, Skyward Sword, and BOTW.

Regarding the next Smash, it is going to be hard to beat the Character push from Ultimate. The content in the actually Multi/Smash mode was amazing in Ultimate and will be hard to match. Where Ultimate was a little thin was the Single Player content. It had a lot more than Wii U but feels small compared to Brawl's content. The new game could put more of a focus on the Single Player modes to distinguish itself from Ultimate.

 

[SpectreJordan]

also, even though we got the big three of Ridley, K. Rool and Banjo, there will always be “successors”

anyone with a good enough following can be the successor to any of the newcomers in Ult

Kinda hope Fiora’s the new Chrom for next game...

I’d say we already have the successors with Crash & Sora. The third might be weird this time with Doom Slayer in the West & Arle in Japan.

 

[Bobthealligator]

Reimu has a shot. I think Rayman is more well-known in Japan than we think. Ubisoft loves to spam him everywhere kind of like Sega and Sonic (which isn't necessarily a bad thing). I will give it to you that he is probably more obscure than some of the other third parties added.

I imagine Nintendo publishing some of the games helped somewhat

 

[WeirdChillFever]

I’m not sure how E3 factors into the hype factor of our last characters considering the fact that even if characters were chosen and arranged with reveal time in mind, Min Min and overall COVID-shenanigans probably messed up the timing. They can’t save the best for E3 because these are just...the last two characters.

 

[Paraster]

Here's my take on the Smash 6 cuts discussion: A forum game. If you had to cut half of Ultimate's roster (well about half, since it'd be either 44 or 45), who would you cut?

I've been working on a concept for a post-Ultimate Smash in my off time, and made some choices on characters to cut. I only cut 20 (though this is subject to change), but I'll use that as a starting point.

Spoiler: List

Bolded ones are the ones I decided to cut before this. Also, I'm counting "combo characters" as separate (i.e. Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Charizard are counted separately).

I tried to balance my own opinions with what I think would realistically happen.

1. Daisy
2. Dr. Mario
3. Bowser Jr.
4. Piranha Plant
5. Diddy Kong
6. Sheik
7. Young Link
8. Toon Link
9. Dark Samus
10. Wolf
11. Pichu
12. Mewtwo
13. Squirtle
14. Ivysaur
15. Charizard
16. Lucario
17. Greninja OR Incineroar (Greninja's way more popular, but Incineroar is currently my #1 favorite Pokemon)
18. Lucas
19. Ice Climbers
20. Lucina
21. Chrom
22. Ike
23. Corrin
24. Byleth
25. Palutena
26. Olimar
27. R.O.B.
28. Villager
29. Wii Fit Trainer
30. Pyra
31. Mythra
32. Little Mac
33. Duck Hunt
34. Snake
35. Cloud
36. Sephiroth
37. Bayonetta
38. Simon
39. Richter
40. Joker
41. Hero
42. Banjo & Kazooie
43. Terry
44. Steve

Honestly, I WOULD have cut the Square Enix characters just because I think the odds of them getting cut are fairly high, but I kept Cloud and Hero for my game concept to justify adding Neku lol

 

[3BitSaurus]

That's not an excuse.

Then people aren't trying enough or they're going about it the wrong way.
You people want change? Then be the change you want to see, keep trying instead of giving up on the first go.

Falcom didn't get traction because SharkLord stopped going on about it, they kept talking about it where possible in a positive manner, no dragging anyone or anything else down to prop it up. No "Oh wouldn't it be terrible if it were a guessing game" type deals or whatever.

Just sheer positive vibes and persistence.

...Quite frankly? You talk about positive vibes, but those answers are anything but.

In fact, you're more likely to get people away from trying by being agressive. And "going about it the wrong way" is extremely vague. This isn't political science, it's a bunch of people talking charactes they want in a video game. "Keep trying" isn't good advice imo.

It's why I've had the LoL threads in my sig for a while. If people are interested, they'll click and read more, maybe post questions there. If not, they won't. It's that simple. There's no need to stress over this - if people also see LoL as a dark horse like me, they will, if they won't, they won't. That's it.

 

[Guynamednelson]

It seems unlikely we'll get a Corrin or a Byleth - the stars just aren't aligning for any promotional Nintendo pick at the moment

See that's the issue, trying to convince people that characters that aren't first parties from the past six months can still join the battle. We still don't want to believe Nintendo characters could get in for any other merits, even when ARMS proved that first-parties older than that could join the battle as DLC, the goalposts were moved so that we could still think all first-party DLC was 1000% like Corrin.

 

[volbound1700]

Regarding Fighter Pass, I am scared we will end on a thud as well like most Smash stuff. (Brawl, Wii U, Smash Ultimate Base Roster), etc.

FP#10 gives me hope that it will be a character we want.

FP#11 will likely be a thud.

Fire Emblem seems to be the theme. I think another MAJOR issue with Fire Emblem is that the Smash Representatives actually do not represent Fire Emblem games that well for the # of characters provided. Nearly all of them use a sword in some form in their move while only 1/6 of the FE characters use swords. The paper-rock-scissors melee fighters in FE are Axe, Sword, and Spear. Byleth is the only one that (kind of) uses a spear and none of them use an Axe. Then there is the Green, Red, Blue magicians which are kind of represented by Robin (who is the most original FE character IMO) but they even stuck him with the sword. There is then Archer, Animals/Transformation, and Thief classes. Corrin was supposed to be transformation for Dragon but once again he is stuck with a sword and the sword moves account for 50% of his attacks.

Sakurai/Smash do a great job with most franchises but really haven't done well with Fire Emblem. I think there would have been less heat had Corrin and Byleth not had swords and introduced some of the other fighting mechanics from FE.

It also doesn't help that Mythra and Pyra (sp) are sword users as well from Xenoblade. There just isn't much originality with the First Party characters. I remember watching the announcement with my wife and it was sad how underwhelming it was when both characters where announced. Granted, I guess Xenoblade 2 deserved a rep but it was just nothing fun or new. I did love Min Min as a first party rep because it added something new and was a new franchise but the other two stunk. Combine that with the over preference for JRPG too date and it has been a recipe for salt for some people.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

...Quite frankly? You talk about positive vibes, but those answers are anything but.

In fact, you're more likely to get people away from trying by being agressive. And "going about it the wrong way" is extremely vague. This isn't political science, it's a bunch of people talking charactes they want in a video game. "Keep trying" isn't good advice imo.

It's why I've had the LoL threads in my sig for a while. If people are interested, they'll click and read more, maybe post questions there. If not, they won't. It's that simple. There's no need to stress over this - if people also see LoL as a dark horse like me, they will, if they won't, they won't. That's it.

Actually, signatures don't show up on mobile, so personally, I never noticed that and I can assume this goes for others considering how often I ended up answering people asking why their signature didn't show up on the thread

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Actually, signatures don't show up on mobile, so personally, I never noticed that and I can assume this goes for others considering how often I ended up answering people asking why their signature didn't show up on the thread

Tilt your phone sideways and you can see signatures

 

[Guynamednelson]

Actually, signatures don't show up on mobile, so personally, I never noticed that and I can assume this goes for others considering how often I ended up answering people asking why their signature didn't show up on the thread

And I have signatures disabled even on my desktop.