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Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

Phoenixio

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 2, 2019
Messages
188
Pretty sure that was some weird fearmongering, IIRC. From my experience, Wikipedia is a pretty reliable source (it's helped me do research for essays on more than one occasion).
It's not fearmongering, it's because anybody can edit it, and those edits are not peer reviewed. So using Wikipedia as a reference is really bad: whoever told you otherwise should be fired.

What you can do though is learn the big lines of a topic on it, because there is a lot of information on there after all, and then use some of the references on Wikipedia itself to deepen your knowledge.

This is especially relevant for hot topics, pop stuff, history, or for example anything that is up to interpretation. Other topics, like the more sciency ones, are a bit safer as references are more solid, and few would bother sabotaging the math (and if you understand it, you can check if it holds), but you should still check the references and publishes papers/books instead of citing Wikipedia.
 

LiveStudioAudience

Smash Champion
Joined
Dec 1, 2019
Messages
2,421
It depends on the person, which is the beauty of it I think. Personally I have a much easier time playing Steve than the Shotos because he just leans into my strengths more.
Definitely. A character's complexity so often just comes down to how it gels with one's play style or just general familiarity. I took to Steve far more than I ever did with the likes of Olimar, simply because the former fit most of my preferred methods in matches. I enjoy the Shotos as a novelty, but as some who loved Smash because it didn't require directional motions like traditional fighters, mastery of such characters being dependent on that kind of input was never going to have the same appeal to me as a Mega Man whose functions and best use just feel more natural.
 
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DarthEnderX

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 10, 2014
Messages
5,167
What makes "good" complexity in a Smash moveset? I'm curious.
Ones where the complexity is there for those who want to engage in it, but the character is still perfectly functional if you don't/cant.

Ryu/Ken/Terry were good examples. Those characters are fine on their own, their mechanics just give them a little "extra" if you choose to use them.

Bad examples are Hero and Steve, where they don't even function properly if you don't engage in their finnicky mechanics.
 
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Slime Master

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 16, 2019
Messages
515
Location
Boingburg, SL
Pretty sure there's like, three different definitions of complexity floating around in this conversation and it's hard to tell what I do and don't agree with since I don't know who is using what version.

The way I see it, the three things people are discussing are:
Mechanical complexity: the amount of mechanics you have to juggle in your head to play them well. e.g. Olimar micromanaging his pikmin.
Implementation complexity: How much work it took make the character. Not actually important to gameplay and I don't think anyone's really thinking about this, but I think it's an important distinction to make since this does matter to speculation.
Technicality: The difficulty in actually executing your gameplan. e.g. The shotos are actually very simple characters mechanically, but they're very technical.

IMO Steve does go a little overboard in mechanical complexity. There are just a few things that could be implemented more gracefully. It doesn't come up every game or anything, and he works well enough unoptimized that he's not as hard to play through it as, say, Megaman, but from a design standpoint I do think he's kinda clunky.
 

Sage of Ice

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 27, 2012
Messages
569
Location
reminiscing back in Subspace
NNID
SageofIce
there are a lot of Assist Trophies that i can see as super fun and deserving roster additions, including two of my three most wanted characters since Brawl. if Waluigi was the one and only Assist they decided to promote to playable, i would be disgruntled >:C

that said, i do want him to show up someday! just not if they'd be leaving behind Midna, Krystal, Ghirahim, Bomberman, Shovel Knight, Isaac, Ashley, Jeff, Phosphora, Skull Kid...
 

3BitSaurus

Smash Master
Joined
May 6, 2019
Messages
3,812
Location
Nowhere (no, not the Islands)
Any new Sonic/Mario crossover game? New sports game in general? New Mario Party in the works? WHO KNOWS!

...Confirmed for Smash.
Probably Golf, since it was already announced. Doesn't answer why he's not wearing golfing gear, tho.

Don't think it's for Smash - the lighting looks way different from other renders, as well as the texture on his overalls.

Which is a shame because that pose is ******* glorious
 

SharkLord

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 20, 2020
Messages
6,762
Location
Pangaea, 250 MYA
Probably Golf, since it was already announced. Doesn't answer why he's not wearing golfing gear, tho.

Don't think it's for Smash - the lighting looks way different from other renders, as well as the texture on his overalls.

Which is a shame because that pose is ******* glorious
Yeah, I noticed it didn't seem to fit the other renders too
1620438321922.png
1620438335274.png

Look at their overalls. Look at Waluigi's. Based on the differences, we can safely conclude this new render has nothing to do with Smash.
 

N3ON

Devil's Avocado
BRoomer
Joined
Jan 6, 2008
Messages
20,642
Location
Vancouver
Camelot are usually the ones who give Waluigi the rose, so it being for Super Rush wouldn't be surprising, despite the lack of golf attire.

Makes it higher utility this way though, can use the render again and again.

there are a lot of Assist Trophies that i can see as super fun and deserving roster additions, including two of my three most wanted characters since Brawl. if Waluigi was the one and only Assist they decided to promote to playable, i would be disgruntled >:C

that said, i do want him to show up someday! just not if they'd be leaving behind Midna, Krystal, Ghirahim, Bomberman, Shovel Knight, Isaac, Ashley, Jeff, Phosphora, Skull Kid...
There are a lot of good choices to mine with the ATs, though if only one got upgraded, it being Waluigi certainly would make sense. He is the most popular.
 

Gnateb

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 20, 2021
Messages
342
After DLC has ended, do you think Smash will survive alright?

It's become kind of commonplace to think the game is stale, and it's kind of a downer. To be honest, I hope Ultimate is the last one for a long time, so we can keep coming back when we feel like it.
 

Louie G.

Smash Hero
Joined
Aug 21, 2013
Messages
7,968
Location
Mars
Wasn't there a new high quality Diddy Kong render recently too?

Could be gearing up for that new Mario Party that they confirmed was in the works some time back.

He was such a popular requested character but he has a very lower player base. That's not to say he's completely unplayable or anything, or that you shouldn't use him if you enjoy him and it feels right - just that his moveset as a whole doesn't function super intuitively for most of the player base.
I used to think Ridley felt pretty weird for a while too but I've been playing him quite a bit recently and I've been enjoying him. It still rubs me the wrong way a bit that Ridley only has three jumps and that his recovery is not very good - Side B and Up B are fun moves but both highly telegraphed - but all in all there's some really rad stuff you can do with him and he clicks with my general playstyle surprisingly well.
 
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Gnateb

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 20, 2021
Messages
342
If anyone wants to help bolster the Game Builder Garage online community, I think spreading the word of this is a good idea. Someone is already working on a public sharing website for day one!


Just to clarify, I still find Smash fun. I'll always love it. I was bringing it up because it seems to have fallen off a little over the course of the pandemic, and some content creators have recently stopped making Smash content.
 
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Icedragonadam

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 16, 2014
Messages
4,075
Switch FC
SW-5227-6397-6112

In other news Baten Kaitos and Baten Kaitos Origins has been trademarked in EU. The games have never been released there.
 
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DevaAshera

Smash Champion
Joined
Dec 22, 2013
Messages
2,896
To be perfectly honest Sora would feel a bit empty without Disney references. Especially without his two partners in crime, Donald and Goofy.
I'd disagree..Sora was fine without them in Dream Drop Distance and his various Final Fantasy appearances..he'd be fine in Smash without them..and I'd rather have him without the Disney characters than not have him at all.
Oh they might be making a second Mario Party on Switch? That's nice...

Still waiting for a new Mario Kart game that isn't a port, wallet-abusing mobile game, or weird toy thingie
I'd honestly rather have more DLC for Mario Kart 8 Deluxe rather than another Mario Kart on Switch..I feel a new Mario Kart would just have less to offer than MK8D has..and we don't really need two Mario Karts on the same system.
 

Cosmic77

Smash Hero
Joined
Dec 17, 2017
Messages
9,422
Location
On a planet far far away...
Switch FC
2166-0541-5238
I'd honestly rather have more DLC for Mario Kart 8 Deluxe rather than another Mario Kart on Switch..I feel a new Mario Kart would just have less to offer than MK8D has..and we don't really need two Mario Karts on the same system.
I'm the opposite. I honestly don't care if I have to say goodbye to some of my favorite tracks. I'd rather get an entirely new game with 32 new tracks, a bunch of new characters, new battle courses, and possibly some type of new mechanic over whatever kind of DLC they could bring to MK8D.

I know people have a hard time saying goodbye, but we'll never be able to get a lot of new stuff in large quantities if we keep clinging on to the same game.
 

JustKindaBoredUKno

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 19, 2007
Messages
1,605
Location
Southeast Michigan
know people have a hard time saying goodbye, but we'll never be able to get a lot of new stuff in large quantities if we keep clinging on to the same game.
I'm with you there. I also don't like the idea of Nintendo getting TOO cozy with sticking to the same game for too long. They're supposed to innovate, that's what Nintendo does.
 

DevaAshera

Smash Champion
Joined
Dec 22, 2013
Messages
2,896
I'm the opposite. I honestly don't care if I have to say goodbye to some of my favorite tracks. I'd rather get an entirely new game with 32 new tracks, a bunch of new characters, new battle courses, and possibly some type of new mechanic over whatever kind of DLC they could bring to MK8D.

I know people have a hard time saying goodbye, but we'll never be able to get a lot of new stuff in large quantities if we keep clinging on to the same game.
I suppose, but it could also be worse..I mean, Nintendo really isn't the best at choosing characters for Mario Kart..and I just don't think we really need two Mario Kart games on the same system, even if MK8D is an enhanced port.

I'm sure I'd like it, just like I like every Mario Kart game, but I can't say that whatever new gimmicks or ideas they add will make me have it as a preferred game over the quantity of content in MK8D..its kinda like how Mario Kart Wii came out and it was exciting for me..but eventually I got bored of it and stuck with MK8/MK8D or even went back to Double Dash or Mario Kart 64..granted, that might just be that I wasn't that into MK Wii after a while..kinda like I wasn't with MKDS or MK7.
 

BlondeLombax

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 29, 2018
Messages
2,523
Location
plr_highertower
Friends, I know just the background for a Halo spirit board.
I forget, have we had an3 full 3D spirit board backgrounds with any of the other DLC characters? I'm drawing a bit of a blank.
 

Calane

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 5, 2015
Messages
689
Ones where the complexity is there for those who want to engage in it, but the character is still perfectly functional if you don't/cant.

Ryu/Ken/Terry were good examples. Those characters are fine on their own, their mechanics just give them a little "extra" if you choose to use them.

Bad examples are Hero and Steve, where they don't even function properly if you don't engage in their finnicky mechanics.
Eh, Hero's gimmick isn't very difficult to use. It's as easy as pressing down-b and using the c-stick to direct where you want your spells/attacks to go. It's also easily cancelled by blocking or jumping, so you don't even have to commit to it or anything.

The randomness of it is really it's only "problem", I guess. This could have easily been solved by giving the menu "pages" you could memorize and scroll between, but that's just what I would've done. That said, I think it works fine as it is.

Though, really, the menu is only one move in a full moveset, and the Heroes have plenty of other useful and powerful attacks outside of it. I think they function just fine without their down-b, but that's just me.

If you were talking about the MP bar, all one has to do is land more physical attacks instead of relying entirely on magic. It's pretty straightforward, I think.
 

BlondeLombax

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 29, 2018
Messages
2,523
Location
plr_highertower
Woah, cool render they made. I do gotta ask: Why'd Nintendo make a new render for him? I hope it'd be a sneak peak at his Smash reveal; that vid's starting to get me hyped for that possibility.
Well, to be frank, the Japanese Nintendo website was updated with a new Diddy Kong render; it's the same pose as a previous one, but the fur looks like actual fur and not just polymer.
 

Zachmac

But...DRAGONS!
Joined
Nov 2, 2014
Messages
8,657
Location
Southern California
NNID
AbsolBlade
3DS FC
4210-4109-6434
Switch FC
SW-1754-5854-0794
After DLC has ended, do you think Smash will survive alright?

It's become kind of commonplace to think the game is stale, and it's kind of a downer. To be honest, I hope Ultimate is the last one for a long time, so we can keep coming back when we feel like it.
As long as the last DLC characters aren't Smash 4 Bayo/Cloud level toxic to the community, I think the competitive community should be able to keep Ultimate alive. Things might not look great for the competitive scene right now in the wi-fi era but that's true for most of the FGC right now and I'm confident things will return to normal as events start opening back up.
 

Bobthealligator

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 20, 2018
Messages
503
As long as the last DLC characters aren't Smash 4 Bayo/Cloud level toxic to the community, I think the competitive community should be able to keep Ultimate alive. Things might not look great for the competitive scene right now in the wi-fi era but that's true for most of the FGC right now and I'm confident things will return to normal as events start opening back up.
The thing is, Cloud and Bayonetta were only as damaging as they were because Smash 4 wasn't well balanced. It had a really small number of viable characters and then two characters come along that completely outclass anything in the game already. Ultimate has more viable characters than not so even if we got a character as broken as those two, it probably wouldn't be a huge deal.

Now that I think about it, as Ultimate had already entered development at that point, I do have to wonder if they were designed as Ultimate characters rather than Smash 4 characters.
 

Rie Sonomura

fly octo fly
Premium
Joined
Jul 14, 2014
Messages
17,282
NNID
RieSonomura
Switch FC
SW-4976-7649-4666
Some Nintendo video games whose characters do not appear as as newcomers, assist trophies or spirits:

Warlocked
Karkurenbo Battle Monster Tactics
Tin Star
Uniracers
StarTroppics
Geist
Devil's Third
Fun fact there WERE supposed to be Devil’s Third spirits but they were scrapped
 
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