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Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

7NATOR

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So I've seen people's thoughts on when CP11 will release

To be honest, I might be more optimistic, but I think we could get CP11 sometime either in June or July. CP10's Presentation is likely already been recorded by now, And I think by the time we hit June CP11's Presentation would have been recorded, or at least about to be
 

chocolatejr9

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Looks at Galaxy and Skyward Sword.

Sigh.....

To be fair, some games are harder to port than others. For example, Xenoblade Chronicles Definitive Edition is more-or-less a remake of the original Wii game, rather than a port.
 

Speed Weed

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The fact that there are Nintendo franchises like StarTropics or Pro Wrestling that still don't even have Spirits is criminal.
StarTropics is probably due to being Western-only and it's apparently really badly documented in Japan, so it's possible they might have genuinely missed it, I dunno

But literally why the **** doesn't Pro Wrestling have a spirit
 

N3ON

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Well it's not a question of actual ability, MPT has existed on two systems now and Nintendo clearly has working Gamecube and Wii emulators, it's a question of if Nintendo wants to spend the resources to reprogram the controls.

Metroid is no Zelda. But I think they will, because doing so would then give you a MP3 with standard controls for perpetuity, and let you more easily port that game and the entire trilogy for any system going forward that utilizes the standard control scheme. It's not just about the immediate payoff.

Plus the Switch is killing it. A Pikmin port sold over 2 million units in half a year. I think at this point, you'll see a pretty good return on the Prime trilogy that would justify the costs of updating the package.

CP10's Presentation is likely already been recorded by now, And I think by the time we hit June CP11's Presentation would have been recorded, or at least about to be
That might be true but the release isn't contingent on the recording of the presentation. Banjo's presentation was recorded in June but the character wasn't released until September.
 

Icedragonadam

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A character's release between gaps mostly depends on how complex or simple their moveset is.

Min Min, Hero, Steven and maybe Joker had more complex moves and required more time to work on. And it seems like the DLC dev team focuses on the most complex characters first than the simpler ones.
 

Speed Weed

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Pretty sure they got goddamn wikipedia in Japan!

/open list of Nintendo franchises
/grab at least one spirit from each entry
From what I can remember from a post in the Mike thread from a dude who, like, did his research and ****, apparently in Japanese Wikipedia:

-StarTropics isn't listed in any "lists of Nintendo games"
-Due to that, the article for the first game doesn't seem to be linked in exactly a lot of places, making it harder to find - and apparently it's a pretty shoddy article too
-There doesn't even seem to be an article for Zoda's Revenge

Yea just cause it's on Wikipedia doesn't mean it's automatically "well-documented", per se
 
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7NATOR

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That might be true but the release isn't contingent on the recording of the presentation. Banjo's presentation was recorded in June but the character wasn't released until September.
Banjo's Presentation was recorded 2 days after Hero's Presentation, and Banjo didn't release till September. the thing is that when both Presentations were recorded, The Team were still working on Hero (for Balancing I believe), so that's 2 characters that they were having their attention to

In the Case of CP10 and CP11, CP10 is most likely gonna release sometime either before E3, or will release very Shortly or on the day of the E3 Presentation. If we also get the trailer for CP11 there, that most likely means they have progress on the presentation, and since they would be focused only on CP, we could get the character faster. Which is why I lean more towards June/July, rather than August/September

Of course, The Pandemic is a thing, and forces the team to work at home, which most heavily impacts the time to balance characters. This is also going on the Assumption that we will get the Trailer for CP11 by E3 Time, and also that CP10 will release by the time of the E3 Presentation, along with the assumption that CP10's Presentation might already be done and recorded
 

Stratos

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If Pixar had not a lawsuit for Uniracers, the Uniracers could have been reported to Super Smash Bros. or maybe we would see a unicycle as newcomer. A living object as a newcomer, very interesting.
 
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SKX31

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Haven't watched the video, but I figured it might be something like this.

I dunno - I've never played Devil May Cry, so maybe Dante really warrants this sort of thing. I mean, this is a real mechanic in Devil May Cry, (low bar, I know, but most examples I've seen are under it) but in general I find stance switching, style switching, weapon switching, and character switching way way way overdone in fan movesets. Not that I'm not guilty of this myself - my rework of Samus in the SSB Infinite thread let her switch beams - but it just feels like oftentimes that step one of making a moveset is letting them switch weapons or duct-taping them to another character.
I get why a lot of people do it though - faithfulness to the source material and all. The flipside is though that making a character more complex for the sake of faithfulness does risk running a bit into an accessability problem. Yes, we have some very complex characters (:ultsteve: especially), but it can be difficult to implement those kinds of mechanics and have them be intuitive. Especially to a casual / low level player, who are not neccessarily going to have the time or patience to get comfortable with a complicated or not-exactly-straightforward mechanic.

That's not to say such a mechanic is neccesarily a bad thing, but it is to point out that the mechanic needs to be IMHO worked in with the base moveset in mind (:ultshulk: 's Monado Arts is geared towards his base character for instance, just like in Xenoblade AFAIK). Keeping such a mechanic simple and visually distinct - in your Samus rework, having the different beams hint at their properties like having the Wave Beam be depicted as a wave - is a major plus in this context.

Looks at Galaxy and Skyward Sword.

Sigh.....
His point re: how the game is structured around the Wii controls and thus they'd have to change the boss patterns to match the standard control scheme is valid, but it doesn't mean it's an insurmountable thing. If Nintendo / Retro are indeed willing to commit the resources they'll make sure it gets done.
 
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Dinoman96

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If Pixar had not a lawsuit for Uniracers, the Uniracers could have been reported to Super Smash Bros. or maybe we would see a unicycle as newcomer. A living object as a newcomer, very interesting.
Regardless of the Pixar lawsuit, Uniracers never even came out in Japan, so it more than likely would of been put on the same shelf as StarTropics anyways.
 

SNEKeater

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Looks at Galaxy and Skyward Sword.

Sigh.....

I wouldn't worry about this at all. Like, I know being pessimist with certain Nintendo series is a very natural reaction for a lot of people, and rightfully so, but they're going to release the Prime trilogy on Switch. That's for sure. It's basically a "secret" everyone knows it's gonna happen.

Even if Metroid isn't Zelda, Aonuma said similar things about porting Skyward Sword, and look where we are now.
 

True Blue Warrior

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I get why a lot of people do it though - faithfulness to the source material and all. The flipside is though that making a character more complex for the sake of faithfulness does risk running a bit into an accessability problem. Yes, we have some very complex characters (:ultsteve: especially), but it can be difficult to implement those kinds of mechanics and have them be intuitive. Especially to a casual / low level player, who are not neccessarily going to have the time or patience to get comfortable with a complicated or not-exactly-straightforward mechanic.

That's not to say such a mechanic is neccesarily a bad thing, but it is to point out that the mechanic needs to be IMHO worked in with the base moveset in mind (:ultshulk: 's Monado Arts is geared towards his base character for instance, just like in Xenoblade AFAIK). Keeping such a mechanic simple and visually distinct - in your Samus rework, having the different beams hint at their properties like having the Wave Beam be depicted as a wave - is a major plus in this context.
The key here is to never add things without regards for the overall design of the character, otherwise you get stuff like the Pokemon Trainer’s Brawl Stamina and Type Effectiveness mechanic or the Mario Tornado being replaced with FLUDD for the shallow reason of referencing Super Mario Sunshine despite the former move gelling with Mario’s core design as the easy-to-use beginner character much better than the latter move.
 

True Blue Warrior

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What makes "good" complexity in a Smash moveset? I'm curious.
:ultryu::ultken::ult_terry: are good examples of well-designed complex characters as their mechanically all about representing their moves and game history that feels surprisingly faithful despite Smash not being a traditional fighter series and rewarding if you are able to master them. Buster Wolf and Power Geyser are difficult but satisfying to execute. Playing them effectively is like beating a really hard final boss.
 
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SharkLord

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What makes "good" complexity in a Smash moveset? I'm curious.
Good complexity is unique and referential to the source materials, but not at the expense of the general gameplay. Steve provides a good example of streamlining a game's mechanics down to good complexity; You don't have to manually change your blocks, weapons are crafted all at once, and stuff like Minecarts and TNT are automatically crafted for you.
 

NonSpecificGuy

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I think the one character that just BARELY works is Steve. You have to be super attentive with all the **** he has going with him. Digging and building is one thing but figuring out what material you have to work with, which weapons have broken and which haven’t, and whether you have enough iron to use his down air and mine cart and you have a character that is just all kinds of complex.

Learning motions for the FG characters might be hard for some people but if we’re talking about sheer complexity by layers it’s gotta be Steve.
 

Pillow

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I think the one character that just BARELY works is Steve. You have to be super attentive with all the **** he has going with him. Digging and building is one thing but figuring out what material you have to work with, which weapons have broken and which haven’t, and whether you have enough iron to use his down air and mine cart and you have a character that is just all kinds of complex.

Learning motions for the FG characters might be hard for some people but if we’re talking about sheer complexity by layers it’s gotta be Steve.
It depends on the person, which is the beauty of it I think. Personally I have a much easier time playing Steve than the Shotos because he just leans into my strengths more.

It's kind of funny that the weirder Smash movesets like Steve's feel more cohesive than more "normal" characters like Ridley.
 

Gnateb

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It depends on the person, which is the beauty of it I think. Personally I have a much easier time playing Steve than the Shotos because he just leans into my strengths more.

It's kind of funny that the weirder Smash movesets like Steve's feel more cohesive than more "normal" characters like Ridley.
Yeah, it definitely differs from person to person. I main the shotos, so their inputs are second nature now. I really wanted Steve to be in Ultimate, and I was determined to main him when he was announced, but... Alas, he's complex in a way that I can't really grasp.
 

Pillow

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So basically, people complain about Steve's complexity but his general gameplan is very easy to understand even if it's weird to execute. You keep away with blocks, mine ur good weapons, then kill them (this is dumbing it down a lot but still).

Ridley was just one example, but is kind of all over the place. He's huge but not that heavy, doesn't have many great combos, has a command grab but generally isn't that good up close, has multiple jumps but isn't particularly strong in the air. I think his main focus was he's supposed to be a character that's good at getting people off the stage but it doesn't come together well in practice. He was such a popular requested character but he has a very lower player base. That's not to say he's completely unplayable or anything, or that you shouldn't use him if you enjoy him and it feels right - just that his moveset as a whole doesn't function super intuitively for most of the player base.
 

Technomage

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So basically, people complain about Steve's complexity but his general gameplan is very easy to understand even if it's weird to execute. You keep away with blocks, mine ur good weapons, then kill them (this is dumbing it down a lot but still).

Ridley was just one example, but is kind of all over the place. He's huge but not that heavy, doesn't have many great combos, has a command grab but generally isn't that good up close, has multiple jumps but isn't particularly strong in the air. I think his main focus was he's supposed to be a character that's good at getting people off the stage but it doesn't come together well in practice. He was such a popular requested character but he has a very lower player base. That's not to say he's completely unplayable or anything, or that you shouldn't use him if you enjoy him and it feels right - just that his moveset as a whole doesn't function super intuitively for most of the player base.
On the positive side, you can at least use Ridley to cheese Spirit Battles with walk-offs, especially that Giga Mac one; never doing that battle any other way again.
 

Ayumi Tachibana

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CERO carried out researches several times in the past to see how much their standards are dissociated from the general public perceptions.
They didn't change anything for that, but what they said was that they got a result says that more than 50% feels that more strict rules are needed for violence and gore than the current regulations which even CERO themselves acknowledges is rigorous, while a lot, from both men and women, feels sexual censors should be more lenient.
I've heard things like ripping off human skins or zombie looking like inflamed skins aren't welcomed if they look too realistic since they remind some people of radiation injury. But I'm not sure on this one.
Also, Sakakibara incident really affected every types of media, especially gaming media, so this is more plausible reason for how the general public sees violence and gore in games.
 

Guynamednelson

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Man, saying Doom Slayer could be an echo of Master Chief is how you know someone’s never played either series & probably shooters in general.
Anyone who's been exposed to plenty of 2000s forum posts about how Halo "ruined FPSs forever" should have enough proof already that the two green-armored shootymen NEED different movesets.
 

ahemtoday

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Regarding moveset complexity:

Honestly, I find myself in a weird position regarding this sort of thing. I think there's a sort of curve to how much I enjoy complexity in Smash. I enjoy the movesets of the simpler fighters, and tend to find stuff like Aura or the Go meter kind of... contrived. But on the other hand, I actually think once your moveset turns into Hero or Min Min or Steve, I start liking it again.

Something I'm becoming more and more aware of is that I don't like half-measures. I respect a zealous decision I disagree with more than I do a half-hearted compromise. Like, the weird lives option thing from Crash 4 is discouraging me from getting it more than if it just did or did not have lives. So maybe it's that, but... I don't know.

Maybe a better way to put it is that the sorts of gimmicks I dislike so often feel... bolted onto a character. Like, if you take away the One-Winged Form from Sephiroth, does it change much? If you take away the ammo from Inkling, is it impossible to rebalance the character? Is the zenkai boost effect really a core conceit of Lucario, or is it just a thing he gets for some reason?

Oftentimes, they don't really feel necessary to represent a character, either. If you're lucky, they're directly from the games, like Inkling. Sometimes, they're based vaguely on something, like Shulk's Monado Arts. And sometimes they're just completely made up, like K. Rool's belly armor.
 

Wyvy - Phoenix Mode

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Re: Mortal Kombat; it's not really unpopular in Japan so much as lacking localization and lacking exposure. Another put up more information, but it's much more contextual. It's still a notable series to people, all around the world. But yeah, CERO is a big reason why we don't see it outside of the US and UK at best nowadays. With how graphic it is compared to the 2D games, I can't blame them. Once 3D hit, it had a huge jump in the gore levels(due to using models instead of silly sprites. MK Trilogy is the last core 2D game outside of port-related stuff, like MK4's Game Boy port). Then later games introduced more realistic looking characters, and eventually the X-Ray mechanic, which goes beyond the normal gore, and makes it a typical thing in a battle, not just a fatality which at least can be turned off as an option(in some games, anyway). Completely fixing that massively is more than removing the fatalities, which are so damn iconic that the only thing to happen is the option to turn of blood/etc., often in the Nintendo versions.

Also, Wikipedia isn't bad, but it's not a source in itself. It has sources for most of what it says, which are generally more reliable.

...There was a third thing I meant to say, but I forgot it since it's on previous pages. Will edit in a bit. XD

Oh, right, Porky. The actual sprite is the empty capsule. They honestly probably had no idea of this, since not everyone does perfect research, and this is made more obvious by the fact they thought Nintendo owned some Rareware characters and they used the wrong Masked Man sprite. There's a tiny chance it's supposed to be actually empty as intended, but I feel it's most likely meant to represent Porky, in a joking way like Ness' Dad is.
 
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NonSpecificGuy

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He was such a popular requested character but he has a very lower player base.
With all due respect that statement is based entirely off of assumption. Just because you don’t play the character often or have seen Ridley player that often doesn’t mean he doesn’t have a large player base.
 

Wigglerman

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With all due respect that statement is based entirely off of assumption. Just because you don’t play the character often or have seen Ridley player that often doesn’t mean he doesn’t have a large player base.
At least anecdotally in my many hours of playing Smash online, I've faced more Mii's than I have Ridley's. Early on in the game I saw him way more but he's a ghost in my online ventures.
 

Arcanir

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So basically, people complain about Steve's complexity but his general gameplan is very easy to understand even if it's weird to execute. You keep away with blocks, mine ur good weapons, then kill them (this is dumbing it down a lot but still).

Ridley was just one example, but is kind of all over the place. He's huge but not that heavy, doesn't have many great combos, has a command grab but generally isn't that good up close, has multiple jumps but isn't particularly strong in the air. I think his main focus was he's supposed to be a character that's good at getting people off the stage but it doesn't come together well in practice. He was such a popular requested character but he has a very lower player base. That's not to say he's completely unplayable or anything, or that you shouldn't use him if you enjoy him and it feels right - just that his moveset as a whole doesn't function super intuitively for most of the player base.
I wouldn't use an observed playerbase as a means to conclude which characters are more cohesive as there's multiple reasons for why a character may not be played. They could be too complex, underpowered, hail from a less popular game, too stressful, and so on while conversely a character may see a lot of play despite a poor design because of the opposite. One immediate example that comes to mind is Little Mac, who is a very common sight on online due to being easy to pick up and explode things with, but has a very lopsided design that is ridiculously flawed within the mechanics of Smash and doesn't reflect his game's gameplay well.

Additionally, as said before without quantitative data to support your point you're just making assumptions based on personal observations, which is not a good way to assess how large a playerbase for a character is. It's especially the case nowadays as we're away from the game's peak activity and a number of previous players for those characters may've moved on.
 
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Pillow

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I wouldn't use an observed playerbase as a means to conclude which characters are more cohesive as there's multiple reasons for why a character may not be played. They could be too complex, underpowered, hail from a less popular game, too stressful, and so on while conversely a character may see a lot of play despite a poor design because of the opposite. One immediate example that comes to mind is Little Mac, who is a very common sight on online due to being easy to pick up and explode things with, but has a very lopsided design that is ridiculously flawed within the mechanics of Smash and doesn't reflect his game's gameplay well.

Additionally, as said before without quantitative data to support your point you're just making assumptions based on personal observations, which is not a good way to assess how large a playerbase for a character is. It's especially the case nowadays as we're away from the game's peak activity and a number of previous players for those characters may've moved on.
Sure that's fair. It's like, my opinion. :079:
 

SKX31

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Ridley was just one example, but is kind of all over the place. He's huge but not that heavy, doesn't have many great combos, has a command grab but generally isn't that good up close, has multiple jumps but isn't particularly strong in the air. I think his main focus was he's supposed to be a character that's good at getting people off the stage but it doesn't come together well in practice. He was such a popular requested character but he has a very lower player base. That's not to say he's completely unplayable or anything, or that you shouldn't use him if you enjoy him and it feels right - just that his moveset as a whole doesn't function super intuitively for most of the player base.
I feel you, that's kinda how I feel with :ultbanjokazooie: . I kinda think the duo could use some quality of life buffs to their CQC so it doesn't feel as inconsistent (Up Tilt's hitbox is smaller than expected, for example, meaning that it'll whiff quite a bit, vs. smaller characters especially). Then again they're well-rounded, so there's not that much that should be - IMHO - changed around them really.

If it helps, think of :ultridley: as a character who instead thrives off of consistent pressure. He's got a number of poking tools especially when spaced (F-Tilt, D-Tilt, N-Air) and his aerials are generally really good at maintaining pressure because they reach quite far and offer good reward mostly. His edge guarding is particularily good because of the aerials' general utility + stuff like Plasma Breath. Space Pirate Rush is a good call out option. He might not get people to the edge often, but if he gets going he can deal a lot of damage in a hurry.

Now I do agree with the fact that Ridley's kinda in an awkward position because he has Bowser's size but Ike's weight, his high risk going alongside his high reward, plus the fact that he has some issues getting places (especially in the air - his ground speed's really good though). That said, personally I stand by my opinion that Ridley only needs some QoL buffs towards his weight and a tiny bit towards the airspeed.

CERO carried out researches several times in the past to see how much their standards are dissociated from the general public perceptions.
They didn't change anything for that, but what they said was that they got a result says that more than 50% feels that more strict rules are needed for violence and gore than the current regulations which even CERO themselves acknowledges is rigorous, while a lot, from both men and women, feels sexual censors should be more lenient.
I've heard things like ripping off human skins or zombie looking like inflamed skins aren't welcomed if they look too realistic since they remind some people of radiation injury. But I'm not sure on this one.
Also, Sakakibara incident really affected every types of media, especially gaming media, so this is more plausible reason for how the general public sees violence and gore in games.
Huh, yeah that makes sense. I found a 2007 article published in the San Diego International Law Journal that talks about how the "violence and video games" controversy was talked about in Japan. Specifically, it mentions a 2005 stabbing spree that occured at an Osaka elementary school (where the resulting furor was aimed at GTA III) as well as a then-upgoing trend of violence at primary schools. Like the then-current "violence in video games" controversy in the West the then-current violence was blamed on video games. But the article also goes into detail as to why the Japanese responses differed from the American / European responses.

With all due respect that statement is based entirely off of assumption. Just because you don’t play the character often or have seen Ridley player that often doesn’t mean he doesn’t have a large player base.
At least anecdotally in my many hours of playing Smash online, I've faced more Mii's than I have Ridley's. Early on in the game I saw him way more but he's a ghost in my online ventures.
Combs through data.

In Ultimategamedata.com's dataset (which has recorded 2,6 million online matches, presumably low level 1v1s) Ridley has appeared in 45K matches so far, which is... middle of the pack at 49th (out of 84) in terms of usage rate. His online win% of 49 % is pretty normal.

In competitive play he likewise is a kinda rare (but not that rare) sight, with his online results being somewhat better than his offline (from last year granted). He does have some notable players using him - Nair^ is probably the most well-known player using Ridley - so he's not entirely invisible or anything like that.

Also, I just wanna point out this clip:



EDIT because I didn't feel like making a new post, but still noteworthy:

 
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DarthEnderX

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From what I can remember from a post in the Mike thread from a dude who, like, did his research and ****, apparently in Japanese Wikipedia:

-StarTropics isn't listed in any "lists of Nintendo games"
-Due to that, the article for the first game doesn't seem to be linked in exactly a lot of places, making it harder to find - and apparently it's a pretty shoddy article too
-There doesn't even seem to be an article for Zoda's Revenge
So what you're saying is...Japan sucks at wikipedia!
 
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