RetrogamerMax
Smash Legend
I agree. But I think the DK gag will only be used for Rare created characters like Dixie, Krystal, Conker, ect since K. Rool and Banjo & Kazooie have been the only ones to have use the gag.
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Dixie Kong's Barrel Of Support Spirits. Farewell Everyone, Thank You ALL For Making This Thread An Excellent Place For DK Fans!
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Mushroomguy12
Smash Hero
Oh yeah, if they reused that montage for Chun-Li or any non Rare character they definitely wouldn’t use the DK part again, just the montage.
ChronoBound
Smash Hero
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A year ago, I made the promise to make a massive work based on some polls in relation to character support during prior epochs.
When I was writing my response a while back, I noticed many posts lamenting how the desire and focus of the Smash fanbase, has now shifted towards mostly third-party characters. As I said before this is a relatively recent phenomenon. The shift over towards mostly third-party characters is something that did not happen until the last two years.
For those of us that were around during the pre-Smash 4 speculation days, we can remember an inverse of the present situation. Most character desires were dominated by Nintendo owned characters, and there were only a few third-party characters that were among the top fanbase desires.
There are several reasons for this. One is that as I mentioned before many of the big name and well known Nintendo characters have already been added in at this point. Outside of Mario universe characters, there are very few Nintendo characters recognizable to the casual Nintendo fan. Contrast that with how many recognizable third-party characters are still not on the roster.
The other factor is how the ball got rolling on the shift towards third-party desires. Up until the announcement of the Smash Ballot, the fanbase desires were mostly relegated towards Nintendo characters and a handful of third-party character that mostly had some sort of strong connection to the Nintendo brand or hardware.
It was the advent of the Smash Ballot that gave the fanbase the direct feeling that they could influence the roster to Smash Bros., and that “any character could get in with a large enough push”. It was in 2015 where we started to begin to see very large pushes for multiple third-party character and not just one at a time like was the case with Sonic during pre-Brawl or Mega Man during pre-Smash 4. The large scale pushes for Banjo & Kazooie, Shovel Knight, Rayman, and Shantae were during the ballot period.
The next key step for the rise of third-parties among the Smash Bros. fanbase’s desires was the confirmation of Cloud. Prior to Cloud’s confirmation, many felt that third-party characters that were added in for Smash Bros. needed to have some sort of strong connection or history with the Nintendo brand (Snake was seen as a sort of anomaly that only happened only due to a personal request from Hideo Kojima).
When Cloud was confirmed, that consensus was shattered. From at that point for a growing minority, Smash Bros. was now about more than just a celebration of all things Nintendo, but for gaming as a whole. From that point on, the fanbase desires for newcomers were almost a 50/50 split between Nintendo characters and third-parties.
However, there was one last critical event that caused this even split to tilt almost entirely to third-party characters. This was the November 2018 Smash Direct and the unveil of Joker a month later. It was during the November 2018 direct where a lot of the most highly requested remaining Nintendo characters were given seeming deconfirmations (Assist Trophy roles and/or Mii costumes), as well as the belief (with the exception of Geno) that spirits were deconfirmations.
Later when Joker was confirmed, it was a reprisal of the situation with Cloud where the character had a tenuous connection to Nintendo (his only appearance on Nintendo hardware at the time was the 3DS swansong spinoff Persona Q2). Reggie Fils-Aime added to the wild speculation for the rest of the pass with a comment that Joker was emblematic of the rest of the pass, and that they were characters that we would not expect to see in Smash Bros.
It was at that point on that the Smash fanbase’s desires consisted almost entirely of third-party characters. There was also a growing sort of consensus that only third-party characters were “hype producing” or could generate mass interest. This created a negative feedback loop to which drained out a lot of remaining interest in prospective Nintendo newcomers. They were not only seen as “unlikely” but also as “not hype inducing”.
It has gotten to the point where the only four Nintendo owned characters that seem to still have a significant fanbase among the “Smash Bubble” are Bandanna Waddle Dee, Waluigi, Isaac, Dixie Kong, and Rex & Pyra. This is a significant collapse. Only three of these characters are franchise mainstays (Bandanna Waddle Dee, Waluigi, and Dixie Kong), with Isaac hailing from a series without a new game in a decade, and with Rex & Pyra it is likely the pair will have much of their fanbase depreciate once a fully new Xenoblade installment is released.
There are three snapshots that can be provided to show the drastic change over time in relation to character desires for the Smash fanbase.
pastebin.com
The first is from late October 2014. This particular poll is notable as it was the last poll published by a long time mainstay of the pre-Smash 4 speculation community on SmashBoards, Shorts/shortiecanbrawl (he tragically died in a car accident a few weeks later). His niche in Smash speculation was to make polls and spread them to different Smash communities (GameFAQs, SmashBoards, 4chan, Reddit, etc.). He was also the preeminent supporter of Krystal during the pre-Smash 4 epoch.
This last poll he did is also particularly important because many of the characters that ranked highly in it ended up being added to Ultimate’s base roster (and DLC in the case of Banjo) or even DLC for Smash 4 (as was the case with Lucas, Roy, and Bayonetta).
Many of the Top 20 consists of veterans from prior Smash titles. Five of the Top 20 are veterans, and the Top 5 alone has three veterans (with another just barely out of the Top 5).
1. Lucas
2. Ice Climbers
3. Ridley
4. Wolf
5. K. Rool
6. Snake
7. Dixie Kong
8. Black Shadow
9. Isaac
10. Paper Mario
11. Banjo & Kazooie
12. Bandanna Dee
13. Krystal
14. Roy
15. Impa
16. Kamek
17. Hades
18. Waluigi
19. Ashley
20. Skull Kid
There are only two third-party characters in the whole of the Top 20 for this snapshot into the “old desires” of the Smash community, simply Snake and Banjo & Kazooie. One of these is a veteran, and the other is basically an honorary Nintendo character. Banjo’s performance in particular is extremely impressive because the character was seen as basically impossible still, and it was not until the Smash Ballot where there were many whom thought there existed a realistic shot towards inclusion. That should tell many here everything about the state of third-party character desires back in 2014. A seemingly impossible third-party character was by far the most wanted third-party character likely as a result of meshing well with the old theme of Smash Bros., a collection of Nintendo’s all-stars.
Removing the veterans from the poll provides a bit more insight into how third-party desires use to work for the Smash fanbase:
1. Ridley
2. K. Rool
3. Dixie Kong
4. Black Shadow
5. Isaac
6. Paper Mario
7. Banjo & Kazooie
8. Bandanna Dee
9. Krystal
10. Impa
11. Kamek
12. Hades
13. Waluigi
14. Ashley
15. Skull Kid
16. Simon Belmont
17. Bomberman
18. Dark Samus
19. Bayonetta
20. Ghirahim
21. Phoenix Wright
With the additional third-party entries that managed to make the Top 20 without the veterans there, we can further see “association with Nintendo or Nintendo hardware” as a significant indicator for support among third-parties prior to the Smash Ballot. Simon Belmont, Bomberman, and Phoenix Wright (I extended it to 21 simply because he is a character that fits well with this thesis) all have very long histories with Nintendo consoles and the software they starred in on those consoles are often considered among the most memorable of their respective console libraries. For many they are considered honorary Nintendo icons. For Bayonetta, Bayonetta 2 was among the biggest exclusives that the Wii U had, and thus she was taken under the wing by many Nintendo and Smash fans.
Even if including Phoenix Wright as part of a “Top 21”, only five of the Top 21 are third-party characters. The rest are all Nintendo characters.
A small interesting side note, is how much Geno’s fortunes changed from 2014 to now. Geno is ranked at #44 in this poll without veterans, and at #49 with veterans included. I cannot state how much specific events re-invigorated interest in this character. Other “relics” or one-shots from pre-Brawl prominence all ranked higher. Isaac and Krystal were big requests during pre-Brawl that managed to hold onto a significant portion of their requests (Isaac actually improved relative to his performance during pre-Brawl) throughout the pre-Smash 4 period. Characters like Dark Samus, Midna, Lyn, and Vaati, all that were major requests during the pre-Brawl period (though Vaati collapsed once Twilight Princess was released) had more requests than Geno for this poll. It was not a factor of “impossibility” considering you look at how a character literally owned by a competitor to Nintendo (Microsoft) was by far the most requested third-party character (it was not until 2015 where Spencer made the comments suggesting he was open to the idea of Banjo & Kazooie being a part of Smash Bros.). It was basically a combination of the Mii costume and Sakurai’s own personal endorsement (“he is pretty cool”) and his stated intention to make him playable during Brawl that got him on the Smash fanbase’s radar again.
For Dixie Kong fans, if you are wondering why she is doing so well here, it is simply because of her newfound prominence from Tropical Freeze as well as the feeling that DK deserved another newcomer. For many outside K. Rool’s fanbase, he was seen as a “relic” and thus no longer relevant to the DK brand, which thus buoyed Dixie’s support at the time. The Smash Ballot is what really helped K. Rool’s support even further. However, another factor was definitely that she was a seen as an extremely important Nintendo character that still was not yet part of the roster, and this was something that was seen as a major factor for character support prior to 2015.
Other strange anomalies from this poll should also be explained. Black Shadow ranks as high as he is because one of the strongest desires at the time was for Ganondorf to gain a completely new moveset as well as finding a character that would suitably fill Ganondorf’s current Smash moveset. There was a sense of wanting to give many long time Nintendo franchises an additional playable character, and Black Shadow to many seemed like the most fitting second choice for F-Zero (while also allowing Ganondorf to gain a new moveset). This same sense of wanting to give a long time franchise an additional playable character could probably extend as to why Kamek is ranking so high (seen as the natural second playable character for Yoshi).
With all of this said, this was pretty much what was typical of what character requests looked like prior to the Smash Ballot.
sourcegaming.info
For the next screenshot into the past, we are going to look at a poll that was released in June 2018, right before the time Ultimate was formally unveiled.
1. K. Rool
2. Waluigi
3. Shovel Knight
4. Bandanna Dee
5. Crash Bandicoot
6. Banjo & Kazooie
7. Rayman
8. Rex & Pyra
9. Ridley
10. Shantae
11. Decidueye
12. Bomberman
13. Isaac
14. Spring Man
15. Dixie Kong
16. Geno
17. Sora
18. Paper Mario
19. Takamaru
20. Impa
It is from this poll that we can see much of the consequences from the Smash Ballot, the emergence of new prominent Nintendo software (Xenoblade 2, ARMS, Pokemon Sun/Moon), as well as impacts from Sakurai’s own statements (notice how much Ridley fell and how much Geno rose). The four year interval between these polls shows that there was near 50/50 parity between third-party characters and Nintendo characters for newcomer desires among the Smash fanbase.
Only half of the Top 20 from 2014 is still part of 2018’s Top 20 despite only one character (Bayonetta) having been promoted towards playable status. Of the new characters to enter the Top 20 for 2018, six of them are third-party and four of them are Nintendo (with all with the exception of Takamaru being new characters that were created less than two years prior to this poll).
It is worth noting that characters like Rayman, Shovel Knight, and Shantae first got their first major prominence in the Smash fanbase during the Smash Ballot period.
It can thus be seen as recently as two years ago, that there was a still very large demand for Nintendo characters among the Smash fanbase. Even among the third-party characters of the Top 20, many of them have a very long history or strong connection with Nintendo. However, we can definitely see from this snapshot where the tides were gradually turning toward third-party possibilities.
sourcegaming.info
The last screenshot I am going to list for this discussion is a poll that was released on June 2020. It is at this point which where we can now see see the trends that some people in this thread have lamented about.
1. Crash Bandicoot
2. Geno
3. Doom Slayer
4. Sora
5. Dante
6. Rayman
7. Minecraft Steve
8. Master Chief
9. Bandanna Dee
10. Phoenix Wright
11. Reimu
12. Waluigi
13. Shantae
14. Travis Touchdown
15. Isaac
16. Dixie Kong
17. 2B
18. Rex & Pyra
19. Ryu Hayabusa
20. Arle
Only a quarter of the Top 20 has Nintendo characters. Only a single Nintendo character (barely) within the Top 10. There are even a few third-party characters that never had a proper appearance on a Nintendo console (Master Chief and 2B).
Similarly to the 2014 poll compared to the 2018 one, half (or in this case nearly half) of the characters from the prior poll still manged to be within the Top 20 of the next one. For Waluigi and Isaac in particular it is impressive considering how both managed to stay within the Top 10 despite both being Nintendo owned characters as well as both having Assist Trophy roles already in Ultimate (Bomberman, Shovel Knight, and Takamaru all basically collapsed for the 2020 poll).
The sheer collapse of Nintendo characters in the last two years was incredible. Outside the Top 20, there are only another four Nintendo characters from #21-50 (Paper Mario at #26, Porky at #30, Skull Kid at #37, and Elma at #44). This is very demoralizing to fans of Smash Bros. as a celebration of Nintendo.
As I said countless times before, I do not think we will be getting any more Nintendo newcomers in Ultimate (barring a miracle).
However, even still, it is quite possible the present trends last well after the DLC period. Smash is now seen as a celebration of gaming as a whole, as opposed to simply Nintendo and Nintendo affiliated franchises. Of the remaining highly requested Nintendo characters, only Waluigi and Bandanna Dee look to have near guaranteed futures as highly requested characters. For Dixie Kong, her future is largely contingent on whether a future major DK is made and whether she has a major role in that title. For Isaac, his future is largely tied to whether Golden Sun has a future (if there is not a Switch Golden Sun, he might very well find himself in a similar situation where Geno was during the first half of the 2010’s in terms of requests). I think for Rex & Pyra, they are destined to fall in requests as more Xenoblade titles are made.
Ultimate in many ways is a Janus, a transition between the old Smash of Nintendo All-Stars and the new Smash of a Gaming Celebration as a whole. Nearly half of the newcomers for Ultimate are third-party characters right now (9 out of 20 are third-party). I fully expect the remaining three newcomers for Ultimate to be third-party characters, leaving Ultimate with over half of its newcomers as third-party characters (12 out of 23 I expect to be third-party).
For Bandanna Waddle Dee and Waluigi (despite both being technically being characters that have been around for a long time), they are both characters that came intro prominence during the 2010’s. Dixie Kong by comparison, is a character whose highest prominence was back in the 90’s, and during the 2000’s she only existed in the background to the DK and Mario spinoffs, and it was only until Tropical Freeze where she again got to the forefront of the DK brand, only to be hurt by there having not been another DK title for at nearly seven years now.
Dixie Kong may not be the “last Nintendo All-Star” per see, but she is the last Nintendo character that headlined games in his/her own franchise that is still not part of Smash Bros.’s roster. For a large portion of the old guard of Smash Bros. supporters, she is the last remaining piece of the puzzle to them.
In regards to “long time requests” still not in Smash, there are many of those. Even going to those just from the pre-Brawl days, there is still Isaac, Geno, and Krystal (it is peculiar to see people say Geno is the last major request from the pre-Brawl days, when Isaac still had a very large fanbase up until two years ago, and Krystal was still highly requested during the Ballot period).
Dixie Kong has never been a titan in terms of requests. There have been points where she has been a part of the Top 10 and consistently been a part of the Top 20, but she has never been at the forefront of the fanbase’s desires. Aside from E3 2013 to the Smash Ballot, she has never been within striking distance of the most highly requested characters.
However, what those snapshot of the polls from 2014, 2018, and 2020 show is this: that Dixie Kong has a fanbase that has stood beside her despite all the tribulations and titanic shifts that have occurred over the last six years. Dixie Kong does not make waves with her fanbase, but she is among the few still left standing as far as Nintendo characters go.
I do not know what the future holds for Dixie Kong and her fanbase going forward. Many of her fans in this thread (including myself) have stated intentions to leave the Smash speculation and the character support scene once Ultimate’s DLC wraps up. If Dixie Kong is going to have a future she is going to need to gain a new generation of fans. The re-release of the DKC trilogy on the Switch online certainly helps in this regard (especially considering how well DKC2 and DKC3 have held up), however, she is going to need all new source material in general for her to fill the shoes left behind by Ridley and K. Rool. In regards to that, the future is very uncertain, even if a new DK title were to be announced next year (her role and prominence in a major DK title is very uncertain considering she has a long track record of missing out on critical major DK titles, examples include Diddy Kong Racing, Donkey Kong 64, Donkey Kong Jungle Beat, and Donkey Kong Country Returns).
That is what the 2014 poll might show. Hope. Dixie Kong could possibly be the heir to the crown left behind by Ridley and K. Rool. She, just like them, is an iconic part to her franchise and fits in with the old meaning of what Smash Bros. was (a celebration of Nintendo) and in a way fits in with its new meaning (a celebration of gaming as a whole).
In the right circumstances, much like Geno has shown (look at where he was in the 2014 poll compared to where he is in the 2020 poll), she could have a massively revitalized fanbase. I do not know how this will come about, or if it will even ever come about, but I think she might given the right set of events, become one of the most wanted characters for Smash.
Dixie Kong is a rare (pun intended) heroine who somehow manages to appeal across demographics. “Cute, cool, badass.” She in many ways is the female Mario.
This sort of history lesson I hope offered some insight into how the desires to the Smash Bros. fanbase has changed over the last six years. I know it is disheartening for those who mostly support Nintendo characters to see this, but it is what it is. The fact is that things have changed, and we could can only make due with what the situation that has been given.
Even in such an undesirable circumstance for possible Nintendo newcomers, Dixie Kong still has a large base of support for her among the “Smash Bubble”.
Two years ago, I stated that I had basically lost nearly all hope in Dixie Kong being a part of Ultimate’s roster (this was after Joker was unveiled which seemed to signal the direction that most of Ultimate’s DLC would take). Since then, Ultimate’s DLC did take a few turns that I did not foresee at the time such as a second round of DLC and additional Nintendo characters added to roster. However, despite these developments, I do not feel any more optimistic on Dixie Kong’s prospects than I did in December 2018.
However, in the time since, I still tried to support Dixie Kong in small ways and this little community has continued to rally around her despite her prospects having changed very little.
However, what these polls show is hope. Look at Geno, he went from barely within the Top 50 in 2014, to the Top 3 in 2020. Very specific circumstances can drastically change not just a character’s perceived prospects for Smash but also fan demand for the character.
For Dixie Kong, while in 2014 she enjoyed a lot of support, a lot of it was based off her seeming “likely” as well as her seeming to be an obvious choice for inclusion (DK seemed long overdue for a third playable character, K. Rool’s last appearance in his own series was seven years ago at that point). However, at the same time, it shows that Dixie is indeed capable of becoming a part of the overall Top 10 most wanted characters.
For Dixie Kong, much like it took for Diddy Kong, K. Rool, and Banjo & Kazooie, she would need a lot of support in order to finally be noticed and considered for inclusion. Right now, Dixie supporters have done most of what they can given the circumstances. She is probably among the Top 5 most wanted Nintendo characters overall, but we are now in an epoch where the character desires have shifted dramatically over to third-party characters.
Secondly, prior her debut in Mario Kart Tour, Dixie’s last new game appearance was in 2014’s Donkey Kong Country Tropical Freeze. For most characters, they need a contemporary appearance in order to buoy demand for them. The re-release of the DKC trilogy for the Switch Online and her playable debut in Mario Kart Tour were positive developments, but she is going to be much more to be on the radar again for most Smash fans.
I feel Dixie Kong might be the true heir to the legacy of K. Rool and Ridley. No, she does not have the legions of passionate supporters that they do, but the fans that she does have really do like her, and many of her current fanbase is made up of those that had also supported K. Rool and Ridley. This is anecdotal, but I see many people whom had supported Ridley and K. Rool remark that Dixie seems to be “last piece to the puzzle”. Dixie Kong, much like Ridley and K. Rool, is a big part to the identity of her series, it seems fitting she was just behind those two titans in terms of votes in 2014.
A lot has changed in terms of the characters that the Smash fanbase now gravitates to, but Dixie Kong still manged to somehow still be a character that a sizable portion of the fanbase still asks for. She might not represent a new world to Smash Bros., but she like many of the newcomers added to Melee, Brawl, Smash 4, and Ultimate is a major icon to her respective franchise.
Character support can rise and fall given particular circumstances micro and macro. Particular circumstances (those circumstances pertaining only to one character or one series) or broader circumstances (trends that impact broad varieties of characters such as the shift from Nintendo characters to third-party characters). We cannot predict what circumstances might arise to hurt or help a character’s level of support, but as can be seen, there are situations that can very much hurt their support, or help them rise spectacularly.
That concludes my comprehensive essay looking at three different epochs of character support for Smash. I think Dixie Kong given the right circumstances has the potential to massively boost the support there is for her. Who knows when it might happen though, or if it will ever happen. Regardless, I wanted to make a massive work that showed how much the dynamics to character support have changed among the Smash fanbase over the past six years. It took me a year to actually get it out though. I hope it was worth it in the end and provided something interesting to consider and look at for those who chose to make it through this massive work.
Thank you very much for your time and patience in making it through this essay. I hope it was worth your time and that it might have given some of you additional insight or thoughts for consideration.
When I was writing my response a while back, I noticed many posts lamenting how the desire and focus of the Smash fanbase, has now shifted towards mostly third-party characters. As I said before this is a relatively recent phenomenon. The shift over towards mostly third-party characters is something that did not happen until the last two years.
For those of us that were around during the pre-Smash 4 speculation days, we can remember an inverse of the present situation. Most character desires were dominated by Nintendo owned characters, and there were only a few third-party characters that were among the top fanbase desires.
There are several reasons for this. One is that as I mentioned before many of the big name and well known Nintendo characters have already been added in at this point. Outside of Mario universe characters, there are very few Nintendo characters recognizable to the casual Nintendo fan. Contrast that with how many recognizable third-party characters are still not on the roster.
The other factor is how the ball got rolling on the shift towards third-party desires. Up until the announcement of the Smash Ballot, the fanbase desires were mostly relegated towards Nintendo characters and a handful of third-party character that mostly had some sort of strong connection to the Nintendo brand or hardware.
It was the advent of the Smash Ballot that gave the fanbase the direct feeling that they could influence the roster to Smash Bros., and that “any character could get in with a large enough push”. It was in 2015 where we started to begin to see very large pushes for multiple third-party character and not just one at a time like was the case with Sonic during pre-Brawl or Mega Man during pre-Smash 4. The large scale pushes for Banjo & Kazooie, Shovel Knight, Rayman, and Shantae were during the ballot period.
The next key step for the rise of third-parties among the Smash Bros. fanbase’s desires was the confirmation of Cloud. Prior to Cloud’s confirmation, many felt that third-party characters that were added in for Smash Bros. needed to have some sort of strong connection or history with the Nintendo brand (Snake was seen as a sort of anomaly that only happened only due to a personal request from Hideo Kojima).
When Cloud was confirmed, that consensus was shattered. From at that point for a growing minority, Smash Bros. was now about more than just a celebration of all things Nintendo, but for gaming as a whole. From that point on, the fanbase desires for newcomers were almost a 50/50 split between Nintendo characters and third-parties.
However, there was one last critical event that caused this even split to tilt almost entirely to third-party characters. This was the November 2018 Smash Direct and the unveil of Joker a month later. It was during the November 2018 direct where a lot of the most highly requested remaining Nintendo characters were given seeming deconfirmations (Assist Trophy roles and/or Mii costumes), as well as the belief (with the exception of Geno) that spirits were deconfirmations.
Later when Joker was confirmed, it was a reprisal of the situation with Cloud where the character had a tenuous connection to Nintendo (his only appearance on Nintendo hardware at the time was the 3DS swansong spinoff Persona Q2). Reggie Fils-Aime added to the wild speculation for the rest of the pass with a comment that Joker was emblematic of the rest of the pass, and that they were characters that we would not expect to see in Smash Bros.
It was at that point on that the Smash fanbase’s desires consisted almost entirely of third-party characters. There was also a growing sort of consensus that only third-party characters were “hype producing” or could generate mass interest. This created a negative feedback loop to which drained out a lot of remaining interest in prospective Nintendo newcomers. They were not only seen as “unlikely” but also as “not hype inducing”.
It has gotten to the point where the only four Nintendo owned characters that seem to still have a significant fanbase among the “Smash Bubble” are Bandanna Waddle Dee, Waluigi, Isaac, Dixie Kong, and Rex & Pyra. This is a significant collapse. Only three of these characters are franchise mainstays (Bandanna Waddle Dee, Waluigi, and Dixie Kong), with Isaac hailing from a series without a new game in a decade, and with Rex & Pyra it is likely the pair will have much of their fanbase depreciate once a fully new Xenoblade installment is released.
There are three snapshots that can be provided to show the drastic change over time in relation to character desires for the Smash fanbase.
Top Tier• Lucas 477 • Ice Climbers 461 • Ridley 458 • Wolf 450 • Ki - Pastebin.com
Pastebin.com is the number one paste tool since 2002. Pastebin is a website where you can store text online for a set period of time.
The first is from late October 2014. This particular poll is notable as it was the last poll published by a long time mainstay of the pre-Smash 4 speculation community on SmashBoards, Shorts/shortiecanbrawl (he tragically died in a car accident a few weeks later). His niche in Smash speculation was to make polls and spread them to different Smash communities (GameFAQs, SmashBoards, 4chan, Reddit, etc.). He was also the preeminent supporter of Krystal during the pre-Smash 4 epoch.
This last poll he did is also particularly important because many of the characters that ranked highly in it ended up being added to Ultimate’s base roster (and DLC in the case of Banjo) or even DLC for Smash 4 (as was the case with Lucas, Roy, and Bayonetta).
Many of the Top 20 consists of veterans from prior Smash titles. Five of the Top 20 are veterans, and the Top 5 alone has three veterans (with another just barely out of the Top 5).
1. Lucas
2. Ice Climbers
3. Ridley
4. Wolf
5. K. Rool
6. Snake
7. Dixie Kong
8. Black Shadow
9. Isaac
10. Paper Mario
11. Banjo & Kazooie
12. Bandanna Dee
13. Krystal
14. Roy
15. Impa
16. Kamek
17. Hades
18. Waluigi
19. Ashley
20. Skull Kid
There are only two third-party characters in the whole of the Top 20 for this snapshot into the “old desires” of the Smash community, simply Snake and Banjo & Kazooie. One of these is a veteran, and the other is basically an honorary Nintendo character. Banjo’s performance in particular is extremely impressive because the character was seen as basically impossible still, and it was not until the Smash Ballot where there were many whom thought there existed a realistic shot towards inclusion. That should tell many here everything about the state of third-party character desires back in 2014. A seemingly impossible third-party character was by far the most wanted third-party character likely as a result of meshing well with the old theme of Smash Bros., a collection of Nintendo’s all-stars.
Removing the veterans from the poll provides a bit more insight into how third-party desires use to work for the Smash fanbase:
1. Ridley
2. K. Rool
3. Dixie Kong
4. Black Shadow
5. Isaac
6. Paper Mario
7. Banjo & Kazooie
8. Bandanna Dee
9. Krystal
10. Impa
11. Kamek
12. Hades
13. Waluigi
14. Ashley
15. Skull Kid
16. Simon Belmont
17. Bomberman
18. Dark Samus
19. Bayonetta
20. Ghirahim
21. Phoenix Wright
With the additional third-party entries that managed to make the Top 20 without the veterans there, we can further see “association with Nintendo or Nintendo hardware” as a significant indicator for support among third-parties prior to the Smash Ballot. Simon Belmont, Bomberman, and Phoenix Wright (I extended it to 21 simply because he is a character that fits well with this thesis) all have very long histories with Nintendo consoles and the software they starred in on those consoles are often considered among the most memorable of their respective console libraries. For many they are considered honorary Nintendo icons. For Bayonetta, Bayonetta 2 was among the biggest exclusives that the Wii U had, and thus she was taken under the wing by many Nintendo and Smash fans.
Even if including Phoenix Wright as part of a “Top 21”, only five of the Top 21 are third-party characters. The rest are all Nintendo characters.
A small interesting side note, is how much Geno’s fortunes changed from 2014 to now. Geno is ranked at #44 in this poll without veterans, and at #49 with veterans included. I cannot state how much specific events re-invigorated interest in this character. Other “relics” or one-shots from pre-Brawl prominence all ranked higher. Isaac and Krystal were big requests during pre-Brawl that managed to hold onto a significant portion of their requests (Isaac actually improved relative to his performance during pre-Brawl) throughout the pre-Smash 4 period. Characters like Dark Samus, Midna, Lyn, and Vaati, all that were major requests during the pre-Brawl period (though Vaati collapsed once Twilight Princess was released) had more requests than Geno for this poll. It was not a factor of “impossibility” considering you look at how a character literally owned by a competitor to Nintendo (Microsoft) was by far the most requested third-party character (it was not until 2015 where Spencer made the comments suggesting he was open to the idea of Banjo & Kazooie being a part of Smash Bros.). It was basically a combination of the Mii costume and Sakurai’s own personal endorsement (“he is pretty cool”) and his stated intention to make him playable during Brawl that got him on the Smash fanbase’s radar again.
For Dixie Kong fans, if you are wondering why she is doing so well here, it is simply because of her newfound prominence from Tropical Freeze as well as the feeling that DK deserved another newcomer. For many outside K. Rool’s fanbase, he was seen as a “relic” and thus no longer relevant to the DK brand, which thus buoyed Dixie’s support at the time. The Smash Ballot is what really helped K. Rool’s support even further. However, another factor was definitely that she was a seen as an extremely important Nintendo character that still was not yet part of the roster, and this was something that was seen as a major factor for character support prior to 2015.
Other strange anomalies from this poll should also be explained. Black Shadow ranks as high as he is because one of the strongest desires at the time was for Ganondorf to gain a completely new moveset as well as finding a character that would suitably fill Ganondorf’s current Smash moveset. There was a sense of wanting to give many long time Nintendo franchises an additional playable character, and Black Shadow to many seemed like the most fitting second choice for F-Zero (while also allowing Ganondorf to gain a new moveset). This same sense of wanting to give a long time franchise an additional playable character could probably extend as to why Kamek is ranking so high (seen as the natural second playable character for Yoshi).
With all of this said, this was pretty much what was typical of what character requests looked like prior to the Smash Ballot.
Results from Mega Smash Poll (Switch Edition)
Back in March, we launched our Mega Smash Poll 2018 and before E3 we wanted to reveal all the newcomer’s fans wanted.
sourcegaming.info
For the next screenshot into the past, we are going to look at a poll that was released in June 2018, right before the time Ultimate was formally unveiled.
1. K. Rool
2. Waluigi
3. Shovel Knight
4. Bandanna Dee
5. Crash Bandicoot
6. Banjo & Kazooie
7. Rayman
8. Rex & Pyra
9. Ridley
10. Shantae
11. Decidueye
12. Bomberman
13. Isaac
14. Spring Man
15. Dixie Kong
16. Geno
17. Sora
18. Paper Mario
19. Takamaru
20. Impa
It is from this poll that we can see much of the consequences from the Smash Ballot, the emergence of new prominent Nintendo software (Xenoblade 2, ARMS, Pokemon Sun/Moon), as well as impacts from Sakurai’s own statements (notice how much Ridley fell and how much Geno rose). The four year interval between these polls shows that there was near 50/50 parity between third-party characters and Nintendo characters for newcomer desires among the Smash fanbase.
Only half of the Top 20 from 2014 is still part of 2018’s Top 20 despite only one character (Bayonetta) having been promoted towards playable status. Of the new characters to enter the Top 20 for 2018, six of them are third-party and four of them are Nintendo (with all with the exception of Takamaru being new characters that were created less than two years prior to this poll).
It is worth noting that characters like Rayman, Shovel Knight, and Shantae first got their first major prominence in the Smash fanbase during the Smash Ballot period.
It can thus be seen as recently as two years ago, that there was a still very large demand for Nintendo characters among the Smash fanbase. Even among the third-party characters of the Top 20, many of them have a very long history or strong connection with Nintendo. However, we can definitely see from this snapshot where the tides were gradually turning toward third-party possibilities.
Mega Smash Poll Ultimate: The characters YOU want for Super Smash Bros. Ultimate Fighter Pass 2!
It’s time for the first results from our Mega Smash Poll Ultimate edition! We conducted this poll back in March 2020 and asked the community a number of questions about how they play Super Sm…
sourcegaming.info
The last screenshot I am going to list for this discussion is a poll that was released on June 2020. It is at this point which where we can now see see the trends that some people in this thread have lamented about.
1. Crash Bandicoot
2. Geno
3. Doom Slayer
4. Sora
5. Dante
6. Rayman
7. Minecraft Steve
8. Master Chief
9. Bandanna Dee
10. Phoenix Wright
11. Reimu
12. Waluigi
13. Shantae
14. Travis Touchdown
15. Isaac
16. Dixie Kong
17. 2B
18. Rex & Pyra
19. Ryu Hayabusa
20. Arle
Only a quarter of the Top 20 has Nintendo characters. Only a single Nintendo character (barely) within the Top 10. There are even a few third-party characters that never had a proper appearance on a Nintendo console (Master Chief and 2B).
Similarly to the 2014 poll compared to the 2018 one, half (or in this case nearly half) of the characters from the prior poll still manged to be within the Top 20 of the next one. For Waluigi and Isaac in particular it is impressive considering how both managed to stay within the Top 10 despite both being Nintendo owned characters as well as both having Assist Trophy roles already in Ultimate (Bomberman, Shovel Knight, and Takamaru all basically collapsed for the 2020 poll).
The sheer collapse of Nintendo characters in the last two years was incredible. Outside the Top 20, there are only another four Nintendo characters from #21-50 (Paper Mario at #26, Porky at #30, Skull Kid at #37, and Elma at #44). This is very demoralizing to fans of Smash Bros. as a celebration of Nintendo.
As I said countless times before, I do not think we will be getting any more Nintendo newcomers in Ultimate (barring a miracle).
However, even still, it is quite possible the present trends last well after the DLC period. Smash is now seen as a celebration of gaming as a whole, as opposed to simply Nintendo and Nintendo affiliated franchises. Of the remaining highly requested Nintendo characters, only Waluigi and Bandanna Dee look to have near guaranteed futures as highly requested characters. For Dixie Kong, her future is largely contingent on whether a future major DK is made and whether she has a major role in that title. For Isaac, his future is largely tied to whether Golden Sun has a future (if there is not a Switch Golden Sun, he might very well find himself in a similar situation where Geno was during the first half of the 2010’s in terms of requests). I think for Rex & Pyra, they are destined to fall in requests as more Xenoblade titles are made.
Ultimate in many ways is a Janus, a transition between the old Smash of Nintendo All-Stars and the new Smash of a Gaming Celebration as a whole. Nearly half of the newcomers for Ultimate are third-party characters right now (9 out of 20 are third-party). I fully expect the remaining three newcomers for Ultimate to be third-party characters, leaving Ultimate with over half of its newcomers as third-party characters (12 out of 23 I expect to be third-party).
For Bandanna Waddle Dee and Waluigi (despite both being technically being characters that have been around for a long time), they are both characters that came intro prominence during the 2010’s. Dixie Kong by comparison, is a character whose highest prominence was back in the 90’s, and during the 2000’s she only existed in the background to the DK and Mario spinoffs, and it was only until Tropical Freeze where she again got to the forefront of the DK brand, only to be hurt by there having not been another DK title for at nearly seven years now.
Dixie Kong may not be the “last Nintendo All-Star” per see, but she is the last Nintendo character that headlined games in his/her own franchise that is still not part of Smash Bros.’s roster. For a large portion of the old guard of Smash Bros. supporters, she is the last remaining piece of the puzzle to them.
In regards to “long time requests” still not in Smash, there are many of those. Even going to those just from the pre-Brawl days, there is still Isaac, Geno, and Krystal (it is peculiar to see people say Geno is the last major request from the pre-Brawl days, when Isaac still had a very large fanbase up until two years ago, and Krystal was still highly requested during the Ballot period).
Dixie Kong has never been a titan in terms of requests. There have been points where she has been a part of the Top 10 and consistently been a part of the Top 20, but she has never been at the forefront of the fanbase’s desires. Aside from E3 2013 to the Smash Ballot, she has never been within striking distance of the most highly requested characters.
However, what those snapshot of the polls from 2014, 2018, and 2020 show is this: that Dixie Kong has a fanbase that has stood beside her despite all the tribulations and titanic shifts that have occurred over the last six years. Dixie Kong does not make waves with her fanbase, but she is among the few still left standing as far as Nintendo characters go.
I do not know what the future holds for Dixie Kong and her fanbase going forward. Many of her fans in this thread (including myself) have stated intentions to leave the Smash speculation and the character support scene once Ultimate’s DLC wraps up. If Dixie Kong is going to have a future she is going to need to gain a new generation of fans. The re-release of the DKC trilogy on the Switch online certainly helps in this regard (especially considering how well DKC2 and DKC3 have held up), however, she is going to need all new source material in general for her to fill the shoes left behind by Ridley and K. Rool. In regards to that, the future is very uncertain, even if a new DK title were to be announced next year (her role and prominence in a major DK title is very uncertain considering she has a long track record of missing out on critical major DK titles, examples include Diddy Kong Racing, Donkey Kong 64, Donkey Kong Jungle Beat, and Donkey Kong Country Returns).
That is what the 2014 poll might show. Hope. Dixie Kong could possibly be the heir to the crown left behind by Ridley and K. Rool. She, just like them, is an iconic part to her franchise and fits in with the old meaning of what Smash Bros. was (a celebration of Nintendo) and in a way fits in with its new meaning (a celebration of gaming as a whole).
In the right circumstances, much like Geno has shown (look at where he was in the 2014 poll compared to where he is in the 2020 poll), she could have a massively revitalized fanbase. I do not know how this will come about, or if it will even ever come about, but I think she might given the right set of events, become one of the most wanted characters for Smash.
Dixie Kong is a rare (pun intended) heroine who somehow manages to appeal across demographics. “Cute, cool, badass.” She in many ways is the female Mario.
This sort of history lesson I hope offered some insight into how the desires to the Smash Bros. fanbase has changed over the last six years. I know it is disheartening for those who mostly support Nintendo characters to see this, but it is what it is. The fact is that things have changed, and we could can only make due with what the situation that has been given.
Even in such an undesirable circumstance for possible Nintendo newcomers, Dixie Kong still has a large base of support for her among the “Smash Bubble”.
Two years ago, I stated that I had basically lost nearly all hope in Dixie Kong being a part of Ultimate’s roster (this was after Joker was unveiled which seemed to signal the direction that most of Ultimate’s DLC would take). Since then, Ultimate’s DLC did take a few turns that I did not foresee at the time such as a second round of DLC and additional Nintendo characters added to roster. However, despite these developments, I do not feel any more optimistic on Dixie Kong’s prospects than I did in December 2018.
However, in the time since, I still tried to support Dixie Kong in small ways and this little community has continued to rally around her despite her prospects having changed very little.
However, what these polls show is hope. Look at Geno, he went from barely within the Top 50 in 2014, to the Top 3 in 2020. Very specific circumstances can drastically change not just a character’s perceived prospects for Smash but also fan demand for the character.
For Dixie Kong, while in 2014 she enjoyed a lot of support, a lot of it was based off her seeming “likely” as well as her seeming to be an obvious choice for inclusion (DK seemed long overdue for a third playable character, K. Rool’s last appearance in his own series was seven years ago at that point). However, at the same time, it shows that Dixie is indeed capable of becoming a part of the overall Top 10 most wanted characters.
For Dixie Kong, much like it took for Diddy Kong, K. Rool, and Banjo & Kazooie, she would need a lot of support in order to finally be noticed and considered for inclusion. Right now, Dixie supporters have done most of what they can given the circumstances. She is probably among the Top 5 most wanted Nintendo characters overall, but we are now in an epoch where the character desires have shifted dramatically over to third-party characters.
Secondly, prior her debut in Mario Kart Tour, Dixie’s last new game appearance was in 2014’s Donkey Kong Country Tropical Freeze. For most characters, they need a contemporary appearance in order to buoy demand for them. The re-release of the DKC trilogy for the Switch Online and her playable debut in Mario Kart Tour were positive developments, but she is going to be much more to be on the radar again for most Smash fans.
I feel Dixie Kong might be the true heir to the legacy of K. Rool and Ridley. No, she does not have the legions of passionate supporters that they do, but the fans that she does have really do like her, and many of her current fanbase is made up of those that had also supported K. Rool and Ridley. This is anecdotal, but I see many people whom had supported Ridley and K. Rool remark that Dixie seems to be “last piece to the puzzle”. Dixie Kong, much like Ridley and K. Rool, is a big part to the identity of her series, it seems fitting she was just behind those two titans in terms of votes in 2014.
A lot has changed in terms of the characters that the Smash fanbase now gravitates to, but Dixie Kong still manged to somehow still be a character that a sizable portion of the fanbase still asks for. She might not represent a new world to Smash Bros., but she like many of the newcomers added to Melee, Brawl, Smash 4, and Ultimate is a major icon to her respective franchise.
Character support can rise and fall given particular circumstances micro and macro. Particular circumstances (those circumstances pertaining only to one character or one series) or broader circumstances (trends that impact broad varieties of characters such as the shift from Nintendo characters to third-party characters). We cannot predict what circumstances might arise to hurt or help a character’s level of support, but as can be seen, there are situations that can very much hurt their support, or help them rise spectacularly.
That concludes my comprehensive essay looking at three different epochs of character support for Smash. I think Dixie Kong given the right circumstances has the potential to massively boost the support there is for her. Who knows when it might happen though, or if it will ever happen. Regardless, I wanted to make a massive work that showed how much the dynamics to character support have changed among the Smash fanbase over the past six years. It took me a year to actually get it out though. I hope it was worth it in the end and provided something interesting to consider and look at for those who chose to make it through this massive work.
Thank you very much for your time and patience in making it through this essay. I hope it was worth your time and that it might have given some of you additional insight or thoughts for consideration.
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LiveStudioAudience
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That's some fantastic analysis ChronoBound and it really illustrates why so many of us lamented that Bandana Dee, Dixie, Isaac, Krystal, etc didn't get in prior to Ultimate because the emphasis on the newcomer DLC has been either third parties and newer first parties so much that any of them just don't feel all that likely.
I think for some of us its a additionally unfortunate because it feels endemic of a broader pattern with certain Nintendo franchises essentially falling by the wayside. Donkey Kong Country has fared best with a whopping two new games in the last 10 years, Paper Mario is irrevocably changed from what it was, Star Fox has been mishandled into irrelevancy, and the likes of Golden Sun or F-Zero are outright dead. One of the reasons getting some of those characters in Smash was so significant to people was that even if their inclusion didn't necessarily spark a revival or rehabilitation of them was that at least it would grant them some relevancy and time in the spotlight again. A Bandana Dee won't go away any time soon, but I can't safely say the same for others.
I think for some of us its a additionally unfortunate because it feels endemic of a broader pattern with certain Nintendo franchises essentially falling by the wayside. Donkey Kong Country has fared best with a whopping two new games in the last 10 years, Paper Mario is irrevocably changed from what it was, Star Fox has been mishandled into irrelevancy, and the likes of Golden Sun or F-Zero are outright dead. One of the reasons getting some of those characters in Smash was so significant to people was that even if their inclusion didn't necessarily spark a revival or rehabilitation of them was that at least it would grant them some relevancy and time in the spotlight again. A Bandana Dee won't go away any time soon, but I can't safely say the same for others.
Dinoman96
Smash Master
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Yeah, Nintendo has pretty much devalued interest and excitement in their own characters and IPs as far as Smash is concerned. It kinda make sense, as sad as it sounds: why put in a fourth stringer Star Fox or WarioWare character when you could instead put in big name third parties like Cloud, Sephiroth, Steve, etc and make the internet go crazy?
It's definitely gonna get harder and harder for smaller Nintendo characters/series from here on out, especially now with Sephiroth basically opening the door for even more big third party characters like Eggman and Chun-Li in the future.
It's definitely gonna get harder and harder for smaller Nintendo characters/series from here on out, especially now with Sephiroth basically opening the door for even more big third party characters like Eggman and Chun-Li in the future.
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RetrogamerMax
Smash Legend
While I'm acceptable of 3rd party reps even secondary ones like Sephiroth, I still majorly prefer Nintendo characters as I grew up with mostly Nintendo games. Honestly, I think the whole base game newcomer lineup should just be Nintendo reps while the whole DLC lineup could just be 3rd party reps. That way these 3rd party developers can get their while Nintendo fans like us can get more of our favorites in the base game. Sure, I would love for the newcomer lineup to be 3/4 Nintendo reps, but the Melee and Brawl days though are over. I just pray we never get a non video game character in Smash as they would make things even worse for us Nintendo fans who prefer Nintendo characters.
Justin Little
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It's the lack of mainline DK games which is the contributing factor Dixie keeps falling down in the polls. I remember Diddy being lower than usual in the polls during the Melee and Brawl days simply due to the lack of major titles (and the way RARE properties were treated during that era). Sure Diddy was lucky enough to be included in Mario Sports titles, but it's nothing compared to being in a mainline title.
I don't know what the hell Nintendo was doing during the Wii U days. After Tropical Freeze released, you think they would have plans set in motion to promote the damn game. Dixie in Smash For would've probably helped, but nah let's reveal Little Mac instead. How about putting her in Mario Kart 8? Nah, hell we'll take Diddy Kong out of the game too. Alright, the least you could do is put her in Mario Maker as one of the costumes right? Nope. Shaun the Sheep, Baby Metal, and literal vomit from Earthbound are more worth the effort.
I know people will mention the location distances between Retro and Nintendo, and that plans are set years ahead of time, but Tropical Freeze was one of their biggest games that year. It's just strange to me despite those hurdles. Is communication between Retro from Texas and Nintendo from Japan really that bad that it hindered a major title like TF? If the rumor is true, perhaps that is one reason why the new DK is being made in-house.
I don't know what the hell Nintendo was doing during the Wii U days. After Tropical Freeze released, you think they would have plans set in motion to promote the damn game. Dixie in Smash For would've probably helped, but nah let's reveal Little Mac instead. How about putting her in Mario Kart 8? Nah, hell we'll take Diddy Kong out of the game too. Alright, the least you could do is put her in Mario Maker as one of the costumes right? Nope. Shaun the Sheep, Baby Metal, and literal vomit from Earthbound are more worth the effort.
I know people will mention the location distances between Retro and Nintendo, and that plans are set years ahead of time, but Tropical Freeze was one of their biggest games that year. It's just strange to me despite those hurdles. Is communication between Retro from Texas and Nintendo from Japan really that bad that it hindered a major title like TF? If the rumor is true, perhaps that is one reason why the new DK is being made in-house.
RetrogamerMax
Smash Legend
Hopefully if Dixie doesn't make it into Ultimate she will have a huge supporting fanbase in Smash 6 bigger than the one right now since K. Rool and Banjo & Kazooie are already out of her way.
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LiveStudioAudience
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A lot of this is just a general fallout of Nintendo being inconsistent/slow in embracing the Rare elements of DKC that were so popular even to now. I've speculated before that after Rare's departure that Nintendo attempted to somewhat rebrand the DK series in their experiments like Donkey Konga and Jungle Beat. The relative modest success those games in comparison to how big the 90s games were (to the point where some of them were getting outsold by decade old DKC ports on the GBA) put an end to much of that, but even then DK has felt mishandled in its reach, and the Country sub brand especially.
The DK vs. Mario subseries is a good example of that. They're some decent titles and no doubt have an audience, but in the broader gaming landscape they've left virtually no significant impact. There's no strong clamoring of their elements to get into games like Smash in comparison to others and among both the Mario and DK fandoms, they're rarely brought up. I don't say this because I feel like attacking a series that likely wasn't meant to do huge numbers to begin with, just to highlight that Nintendo (and a core development team at that) had no problem consistently putting a relatively niche puzzle platformer release with DK several times over a 12 year period, yet seemed unwilling to even attempt a mainline platformer (or even any type of Country spin-off) without handing it off to Retro.
Basically its hard to escape a sense that Nintendo sees DK's IP in a specific way and will put out new content for it if it fits that vision versus a lot of dragging of feet if the game is outside that vision. Of the nine Donkey Kong oriented platformer games that have come out in the last 20 years (Jungle Beat, GBA Trilogy, Jungle Beat Wii, DKC Returns, DKC Returns 3D, Tropical Freeze, Tropical Freeze Switch) six of them were ports of older titles. Outside Mario vs. DK, there's not been a single spin-off in the last decade.
Nintendo will certainly put the Country name to use for re-releases (because whatever brand efforts there have been these past two decades it is the one that sells), but going big and bold with it in terms of new titles, or even elements within existing games like Mario Kart or Mario Party? There's very little sign of that.
The DK vs. Mario subseries is a good example of that. They're some decent titles and no doubt have an audience, but in the broader gaming landscape they've left virtually no significant impact. There's no strong clamoring of their elements to get into games like Smash in comparison to others and among both the Mario and DK fandoms, they're rarely brought up. I don't say this because I feel like attacking a series that likely wasn't meant to do huge numbers to begin with, just to highlight that Nintendo (and a core development team at that) had no problem consistently putting a relatively niche puzzle platformer release with DK several times over a 12 year period, yet seemed unwilling to even attempt a mainline platformer (or even any type of Country spin-off) without handing it off to Retro.
Basically its hard to escape a sense that Nintendo sees DK's IP in a specific way and will put out new content for it if it fits that vision versus a lot of dragging of feet if the game is outside that vision. Of the nine Donkey Kong oriented platformer games that have come out in the last 20 years (Jungle Beat, GBA Trilogy, Jungle Beat Wii, DKC Returns, DKC Returns 3D, Tropical Freeze, Tropical Freeze Switch) six of them were ports of older titles. Outside Mario vs. DK, there's not been a single spin-off in the last decade.
Nintendo will certainly put the Country name to use for re-releases (because whatever brand efforts there have been these past two decades it is the one that sells), but going big and bold with it in terms of new titles, or even elements within existing games like Mario Kart or Mario Party? There's very little sign of that.
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Dinoman96
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It's very apparent that Donkey Kong Country just isn't really apart of Nintendo's cultural DNA in the same way stuff like Mario, Zelda, Splatoon and Animal Crossing are. DKC is really the kind of series that needs an external dedicated developer behind it, just as series like Kirby and Fire Emblem have with HAL Labs and Intelligent Systems respectively...or well, how DK use to with Rare back in the 90s. But obviously they're gone now. And now the series will probably never reach the heights of what it did in the 90s again.
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LiveStudioAudience
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It terms of almost being a very public face of Nintendo like Mario (and Yoshi) were in the mid 90s, yeah that's not likely to happen great games or not given how big Pokémon and Zelda now are. But even a very prominent presence seems more of a pipe dream as time goes on given the company's focus elsewhere and that they don't have much interest or understanding towards building upon where most fan interest in the series lies.
Justin Little
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With the DK theme park underway at Universal Japan, Nintendo are at least attempting to put DK back in the forefront. Whether it will succeed, let's hope so.
Speaking of the theme park, I remember reading park goers would be able to interact with a talking animatronic at the DK area. I think it was referring to Squawks, but how cool would it be if the Kongs had voices. They've already experimented it with Zelda. I could easily see them doing it with DK too.
Speaking of the theme park, I remember reading park goers would be able to interact with a talking animatronic at the DK area. I think it was referring to Squawks, but how cool would it be if the Kongs had voices. They've already experimented it with Zelda. I could easily see them doing it with DK too.
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I mean what it really comes down to is neglecting the DK franchise since Melee. Diddy Kong really should have been in Melee and it's baffling he wasn't considered at the time. Remember Melee came out in 2001, right after the DKC trilogy, Diddy Kong Racing and Donkey Kong 64. Hell Melee came out only 1 year after DK64 in 2000.
If we had gotten Diddy in Melee, then Dixie probably would have been considered for Brawl. K. Rool probably still wouldn't have gotten in till the ballot and demand for him between Smash U and Ultimate was a thing though.
But yeah, it all comes down to the Melee/Brawl era where Dixie got screwed over the most.
If we had gotten Diddy in Melee, then Dixie probably would have been considered for Brawl. K. Rool probably still wouldn't have gotten in till the ballot and demand for him between Smash U and Ultimate was a thing though.
But yeah, it all comes down to the Melee/Brawl era where Dixie got screwed over the most.
Jurae818
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ChronoBound
Great post! You summed up everything I felt about Smash starting with Snake but you managed to bring up another point with Cloud: If Snake opened the door for 3rd parties, Cloud kicked it in. Do you guys remember those fake rosters back in the Brawl days? All those 3rd parties littered among Nintendo faces? Now, those rosters are not so outlandish. Hell, look at Brawl modding and how far it's come; you can literally put all those outsiders on a Smash Roster alongside the Nintendo fare. Ultimate to me seems like a direct response to all those mods and Project M mainly and it's not surprising to see so many people push for 3rd parties. This is why the next game will piss a lot of people off, mainly those fans who came in due to the mutual relationship of their 3rd party series. At this point, it's just a matter of seeing what other 3rd party hype machine will grace Smash and everyone groaning at the actual Nintendo rep which may or may not be an advert, justifying their disdain.
With all the progress Brawl Modding made in the last few years, it wouldn't surprise me if Ultimate wasn't just Sakurai's way of trying to please everyone, but Nintendo themselves trying their hand to counter said modding scene by doing their own compilation of Smash, from newcomers like Simon and K. Rool to renowned relics like Young Link and Pichu in the context of Smash itself. Naturally, they can't really shut down these mods entirely but Ultimate didn't flop sales-wise. This is also why I'm not too mad about official Smash games neglecting Nintendo characters; if I have an alternative, I'm going to take it. It beats crying and regurgitating the same talking points to the same brick walls for the umpteenth time.
Ridley_Prime
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That was some depressing talk/realizations.
Back to DKC3, finished my 1P file last night (will try to go through it with a friend online later), and I think where it really suffers is mostly the soundtrack compared to the first two games, not so much the level design. Kiddy is fun to use, and surprisingly faster than Dixie when you would think it'd be the other way around. I know he's typically crapped on for not being DK, but in gameplay Kiddy was in fact better designed than DK in the first game; filled that heavier Kong niche while being fast. People that couldn't get past his appearance won't admit as much though.
That said, DK himself going back to the forefront with 2D platforming was overdue and Retro was right to do that, but still unfortunate none of these other Kongs and lesser names will never be seen again. If Rare was still with us they would be, but y'know.
Back to DKC3, finished my 1P file last night (will try to go through it with a friend online later), and I think where it really suffers is mostly the soundtrack compared to the first two games, not so much the level design. Kiddy is fun to use, and surprisingly faster than Dixie when you would think it'd be the other way around. I know he's typically crapped on for not being DK, but in gameplay Kiddy was in fact better designed than DK in the first game; filled that heavier Kong niche while being fast. People that couldn't get past his appearance won't admit as much though.
That said, DK himself going back to the forefront with 2D platforming was overdue and Retro was right to do that, but still unfortunate none of these other Kongs and lesser names will never be seen again. If Rare was still with us they would be, but y'know.
Mushroomguy12
Smash Hero
Some DKC3 streams coming out by GameXplain and Good Vibes Gaming!
Dukemon102
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Took around two days to finish it due to how beefy the post-game is. It feels like the prototype of what would become the collectathon genre when you go for every item for the Brother Bears (Which needs bear coins), the Bonus Coins (I played with the Xmas code, I've never done it before), DK Coin and Banana Birds.
Kiddy has the same run speed as DK/Dixie and the same jump distance Diddy had in previous games. Making him a mix of DK and Diddy's best attributes and more valuable than many would think.
Justin Little
Smash Ace
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Thread of cool sprite sheets from the Super Nintendo World portion of the Universal Japan app. pic.twitter.com/RvyGLrd606
— Jack (@Wipeoutjack7) December 19, 2020
Here are some images datamined from the Super Nintendo World app. No Dixie unfortunately, but it looks like Rambi will more than likely make an appearance and finding Kong letters might be an activity at the play area.
Edit: Puzzle pieces as well. Missed that one.
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Vez
Smash Apprentice
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I remember reading early on that Donkey Kong's family and friends would appear during the minecart ride, so I'd assume that's where Dixie would show up, along with Cranky and Funky.
Also as much as I wish Nintendo would acknowledge Dixie more, I'm so happy they seem to have at least fully embraced Diddy. He's one of the only non-EAD characters that seems to be treated like one of their own creations.
Also as much as I wish Nintendo would acknowledge Dixie more, I'm so happy they seem to have at least fully embraced Diddy. He's one of the only non-EAD characters that seems to be treated like one of their own creations.
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Justin Little
Smash Ace
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Funky is for sure going to be there considering Funky Flights is there. Aaand maybe Ellie the Elephant? It was quite weird to see her, of all animal buddies, in that diorama that was leaked. If she's indeed planned to be there, surely the more popular animal buddies like Enguarde and Squitter will be there too.
Mariomaniac45213
The Nintendo Villain main!
I love Returns for bringing back DKC but hate it at the same time as it seems its the only thing Nintendo seems to enjoy referencing. I hate the Tikis and lack of Kremlings, Kongs, and animal buddies. Will be really disappointed if DK portion in Super Nintendo World features no other Kongs besides the standard DK & Diddy or animal buddies besides Rambi. K.Rool and Kremlings probably have no chance in hell at appearing which is sad.
Its bittersweet cause as a kid having a Nintendo theme park was a dream come true and DK minecart ride was always the star attraction in my eyes. While we are getting that its surrounded by the DK I didnt grow up with. I get that Nintendo has to appeal to the newer crowd/kids but theme parks appeal to all age ranges and I just wish Nintendo would blend both the new and the old together so people of all ages can see what they loved growing up come to life.
Its bittersweet cause as a kid having a Nintendo theme park was a dream come true and DK minecart ride was always the star attraction in my eyes. While we are getting that its surrounded by the DK I didnt grow up with. I get that Nintendo has to appeal to the newer crowd/kids but theme parks appeal to all age ranges and I just wish Nintendo would blend both the new and the old together so people of all ages can see what they loved growing up come to life.
KirbyWorshipper2465
Smash Legend
One thing to take into consideration is that as far as A-list Nintendo newcomers go, they are clearly running dry of them at this point. Nearly all the major 
characters are in, pretty much just had theirs done since Melee and mostly leaves out secondary and tertiary ones, Metroid is basically done (Sylux is essentially gravy should Prime 4 be done by the time FP2 ends), is in Sak's comfort zone until further notice, and more recent series got at least one of their required characters included.
If 4's ballot factors into anything, at least some of the newcomers for Smash 6 will pool from the players' suggestions, since there's nowhere else left to go other than more third parties (which gets more difficult the further they branch out for negotiations) or B/C-list Nintendo characters.
In the event that Retro or any other developer releases a new DKC in the meantime, that would further bolster the chances for more of the DK Crew to show up as playable in the future, especially if those that haven't been used in years make an official reappearance. Until then, it's important to keep up support for Dixie/Funky/Cranky.
characters are in, pretty much just had theirs done since Melee and mostly leaves out secondary and tertiary ones, Metroid is basically done (Sylux is essentially gravy should Prime 4 be done by the time FP2 ends), is in Sak's comfort zone until further notice, and more recent series got at least one of their required characters included.If 4's ballot factors into anything, at least some of the newcomers for Smash 6 will pool from the players' suggestions, since there's nowhere else left to go other than more third parties (which gets more difficult the further they branch out for negotiations) or B/C-list Nintendo characters.
In the event that Retro or any other developer releases a new DKC in the meantime, that would further bolster the chances for more of the DK Crew to show up as playable in the future, especially if those that haven't been used in years make an official reappearance. Until then, it's important to keep up support for Dixie/Funky/Cranky.
That sounds right. Same principle as the Square-Enix characters only showing up in SE character trailers (for legal reasons, in their case).
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Dinoman96
Smash Master
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It's unfortunate but it does kinda make sense. Keep in mind Nintendo and Universal have been planning Super Nintendo World since 2015. The most relevant Mario/DK platformers at the time were 3D World and Retro's DKC games. Thus the Mario and DK segments in SNW draw from them heavily.
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BirthNote
Smash Master
ZeroJanitor
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Made a little something to celebrate DKC3 on the Switch, as well as the colder weather we're getting in the Northern Hemisphere (and the Northern Kremisphere)!
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Fatmanonice
Banned via Warnings
Just popping in real quick just to say that I feel the table is set really, really well for Donkey Kong going into 2021. DKC3 finally coming to the NSO and a buttload of DK stuff being datamined from the official Super Nintendo World app a few days ago just added more to the pile this month and someone brought to my attention last month that DK games and merch were greenlit for sale in China in mid November. All of these are pretty big deals in my opinion and like Kremling Kampaigner has said on Twitter multiple times since September: the writing is on the wall, whether people choose to see it or not. With that, I'll excuse myself back to my plane wreckage but say Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays, and I hope you all have a monkey filled 2021.
Justin Little
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With all of the talk of something big happening for DK next year, it's going to be extremely aggravating and disappointing if they're working on some weird experimental spin-off 2D game and not an ambitious 3D DK or DKC 6. Considering with what we've all been through, I wouldn't put it past Nintendo to do exactly that.
LiveStudioAudience
Smash Master
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I'm optimistic that the overt experimentation with mid-tier franchises has hopefully tapered off. Stuff like Yoshi and Kirby have been more mainline in the past 10 years and the combination of Star Fox Zero and Federation Force's commercial failures has hopefully curbed the impulse for being too wacky with the gimmicks or overt focus on odd spin-offs during major game gaps. The big question to me is that if another DK game is coming whether its form will be 3D or 2D.
In terms of making a big splash 3D would be more significant, but with Nintendo not releasing a non Maker 2D Mario game in the last 8 years (with NSMBU Deluxe obviously being a port) there's a big gap that another quality two dimensional game could fill. Especially in an era of stuff like Ori doing amazing things with its visuals, a Country game that did something similar and built upon what Tropical Freeze did would be fantastic at effectively completing a second DKC trilogy.
In terms of making a big splash 3D would be more significant, but with Nintendo not releasing a non Maker 2D Mario game in the last 8 years (with NSMBU Deluxe obviously being a port) there's a big gap that another quality two dimensional game could fill. Especially in an era of stuff like Ori doing amazing things with its visuals, a Country game that did something similar and built upon what Tropical Freeze did would be fantastic at effectively completing a second DKC trilogy.
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Just finished DKC3 with both on normal with kids and tufst myself. Still think it's a good game but worst DKC. Would give it 8/10.
Soundtrack is a bit poor compared to earlier DKCs and atmosphere ain't as good than it was in previous games.
Kiddy is the worst Kong along with Chunky and should be euthanized immediately/used as a meat shield. Everyone of my friends thinks Kiddy's design just sucks and he stole DK's rightful spot. Everything Kiddy does DK does it much better.
Then there's Ellie... Worst animal buddy imo. Makes one really miss Rambi. Just tell her location to poachers...
But Dixie is one of the best parts of the game and it's nice that DKC3 is her game. I understand that if DK was in the game she would have been only a sidekick.
This is a bit of a rant but i just wanted to say my honest opinion (once again)about DKC3.
Soundtrack is a bit poor compared to earlier DKCs and atmosphere ain't as good than it was in previous games.
Kiddy is the worst Kong along with Chunky and should be euthanized immediately/used as a meat shield. Everyone of my friends thinks Kiddy's design just sucks and he stole DK's rightful spot. Everything Kiddy does DK does it much better.
Then there's Ellie... Worst animal buddy imo. Makes one really miss Rambi. Just tell her location to poachers...
But Dixie is one of the best parts of the game and it's nice that DKC3 is her game. I understand that if DK was in the game she would have been only a sidekick.
This is a bit of a rant but i just wanted to say my honest opinion (once again)about DKC3.
BirthNote
Smash Master
Fatmanonice
and
S
Strong DK
legitimately had me lol pretty hard. Euthanizing Kiddy sounds like a hilarious idea, and it's only been a handful of months, but Fatman's comment about the plane wreckage was oddly nostalgic LMAO. I just had to chime in.Heard it and left a like. Great work! I encourage everyone to at the very least leave a comment on Zero Janitor's vid; it'll boost the vid's chances with the algorithm
Justin Little
Smash Ace
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I wonder if they made Kiddy actually cute he would be better received.
Let's see, we have DK who is cool and handsome, Diddy and Dixie who are cool and adorable, and Kiddy who is... just fugly all around. Dixie deserves a better sidekick than that. What if Lanky Kong was her sidekick instead. I say he fits all of those criteria mentioned. Yep, even fugly and handsome. What can I say, he's deep that way.
Let's see, we have DK who is cool and handsome, Diddy and Dixie who are cool and adorable, and Kiddy who is... just fugly all around. Dixie deserves a better sidekick than that. What if Lanky Kong was her sidekick instead. I say he fits all of those criteria mentioned. Yep, even fugly and handsome. What can I say, he's deep that way.
LiveStudioAudience
Smash Master
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I think they could have something from making Funky playable back then. There would be a size difference between him and Dixie so the same contrast in weight would have been there, he was a known (and relatively well liked) character, and you could even play it off as the laid back Funky finally deciding to get involved directly against the Kremlings.
Even stuff like the boat/jet/helicopter upgrades could have been done via Cranky owning some sort of old Kong junkyard and refusing to give the pair vehicles unless he's paid. It stays true to the character and would have continued the association between him and the DK coins.
Even stuff like the boat/jet/helicopter upgrades could have been done via Cranky owning some sort of old Kong junkyard and refusing to give the pair vehicles unless he's paid. It stays true to the character and would have continued the association between him and the DK coins.
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BirthNote
Smash Master
ChronoBound
I read your essay. My state had a big blizzard and so I've spent the last few days dealing with that; I was too exhausted to read it at first but I just finished it.I think your analysis of the speculation trends was excellent and completely accurate. I remember during post-Brawl speculation I'd dream up "rule-free" roster picks that had characters from Sony, Microsoft and other companies, only to be dismissed because they had no hope of ever joining. Not even Rayman. It's crazy how much things have shifted. Years later, during pre-Ultimate speculation I'd point at Cloud and Snake, as well as the Celebration of Gaming to justify speculation about Ratchet & Clank. I knew their odds were next to non-existent, and I know what kind of....."dynamic" Sony and Insomniac Games have with Nintendo, but I stopped caring. I was more interested in having fun with the idea than seriously speculating on their chances. It's just crazy that while those 2 and some of my other rule-free choices won't make it, they no longer seem unreasonable. Even Ori now has a legit shot since Microsoft and Nintendo have a working relationship.
It's completely true that the fanbase's tastes have changed; my Top 3 requests are simply Dixie, Crash and Rayman. I've already gotten my Diddy Kong, Bowser Jr., K. Rool, Little Mac and Mega Man. Now I look at the characters people speculate on and go "Sure, why not." I personally don't have many characters I want, and the handful I do want aren't even Nintendo.
As a side note though, I knew Shorts had passed away years ago but I didn't know it was due to a car crash; back in 2016 I visited the pages of people who were regulars in the Official SSB4 Discussion thread to see what they've been up to. When I got to Shorts's page I saw nothing but mournful comments and pieced it together. I didn't know exactly what happened until today; it's a weird feeling to get the answer to a question I wondered about 4 years later, long after I stopped pondering. Rest In Peace, Shorts.
It's really heartwarming that Dixie stayed strong despite all her circumstances, but it's also bittersweet. I'm keeping a cautiously optimistic eye on what fatmanonice has said in regards to DK having a big game on the way, but as for Dixie's chances in Smash, I'm still skeptical. Years ago, I THOUGHT I had given all I could to show support for Dixie, but Ultimate's debut showed me I barely did anything, so I cooked up more ideas. I'm happy with what I've done now and there'll be more, but I'm also really glad I'm not the only fan showing support in unique ways. Speculating on a character I really want has been stressful and disappointing, but not being the only person who wants Dixie, as well as not being the only one to come up with ideas, is really reassuring. Less pressure I suppose. We're doing a solid job keeping Dixie "alive" but we're at the point where Nintendo's gotta do something.
After this DLC cycle, I probably won't be speculating anymore...even though I barely bother to do it now. I'm cracking 30 and there's other stuff I'll spend time on. Just for fun though I'll probably post moveset ideas for random characters who may or may not ever show up in Smash. I would like to be excited about an upcoming DK game though, but that's up to Nintendo.
Gengar84
Smash Hero
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I have a pretty unpopular opinion on what I want for Dixie’s inclusion in Smash. I think it would be really interesting to represent the tag and team mechanics of the classic trilogy so I’m actually hoping she is paired with Kiddy Kong. Being able to tag in and out as well as the ability to throw your partner to attack would be a really interesting and unique play style that would make them a kind of hybrid between Ice Climbers and Pokémon Trainer. I know most people hate Kiddy Kong but I think he would help make Dixie stand out on the roster.
Ridley_Prime
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Ellie the worst animal buddie? Definitely disagree there. Kiddy I can understand not liking (even though I stand by him being better than DK in DKC1) but she was a breath of fresh air. Her being pretty much the only new animal friend introduced for DKC3 was kinda weak though.
Phoenix Douchebag
Smash Lord
I find it ironic Ellie is not a Rambi Expy in strenght, even though Elephants are among one of the strongest Mammals on Land.
LiveStudioAudience
Smash Master
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I think Ellie just needed one more interesting feature about her playstyle to really make her work. The water shooting was novel, but being a land animal that could pick up barrels didn't make her that different from the Kongs and the scared of rats gimmick was a bit much to deal with. Something like the ability to grab certain enemies with her trunk and fling them at enemies might have made her stand out more.
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ChronoBound
I have read your essay here too, and I can't help parroting with others on how just deeply comprehensive and professionally analyzed it just is. You really went all way and out with this one.
I wish I could voice out my own thoughts and opinions on the analysis itself, but I'm deeply afraid I might end up writing something deeply frothed in embitterment and even passive-aggressively "spiteful" wishes against whatever currently is the audience enjoying getting acknowledged by Smash-franchise these days, while I feel like I had been played like a damn fiddle for even thinking I had even come close anywhere same, and made also a pointed target of mercilessly toxic mockery for investing it on characters that were destined too deceased in their long-running dormancy or insignificance in moveset potential to be added in.
I might consider writing my full thoughts out though incase folk here really feel interest on hearing it - I still want to practice unbiased and non-judgmental view of others, over even thinking of spitting back the same ignorant, envy-filled spite on others out there, even if receiving that long before.
My God... that Shorts? I happen now to remember him back in those days as that chippery, youthful horsetail frequenting that thread so often. What a fine time of endless possibilities and good times that was during my high school years...
I can't believe his passing somehow flew by my horizons, since I had kinda forgotten about him as Smash 4-speculation era thrusted me to completely different communities. Really hits me kind of hard now that I had come far since.
It's definitely way due belated... may he rest in peace.
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Mamboo07
Smash Hero
Rare picture of unidentified simians (2020, colourised)
(Found this cursed abomination.)
(Found this cursed abomination.)