DDD Social: we livin' in smash 4

[ZTD | TECHnology]

I can kinda see his point because of 4GOD's perspective on the MUs and he does very well against Kismet and Player-1. Granted, I don't agree but he's clearly way better at those MUs than I am.

I've just never heard anyone try to argue we beat TL.

 

[Coney]

top level of play here:

-3
-2
-1
+0:
+1:

i may seem pessimistic but let me ask you something:

do you see any ddd, ever, beating any of the top -3s?

willing to change my mind if something comes along...

(btw that something might be 4god. he plays a competent diddy and falco pretty often, but i can't help but think the tops of those characters would just demolish him, as well as any other ddd)

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Coney, you have the most depressing MU spread, I have ever seen lmao.

Then again, you've been where no other Dedede has.

But two things:

as -3? Did fighting Gnes at Apex really sway your opinion that much?

And what do you base off of? Just curious.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I've actually seen DDDs beating Falcos here and there.

-4 (srsly? A grab= infinite?)
-3
-2
-1
-0 (could be -1)
0
+0 (sliiiiiight advantage, imo)
+1

 

[allshort17]

top level of play here:

-3
-2
-1
+0:
+1:

i may seem pessimistic but let me ask you something:

do you see any ddd, ever, beating any of the top -3s?

willing to change my mind if something comes along...

(btw that something might be 4god. he plays a competent diddy and falco pretty often, but i can't help but think the tops of those characters would just demolish him, as well as any other ddd)

Don't you beat Logic and Lie regularly? And 4God beats Kismet and Player-1. And Atomsk has taken out the whole world I think. You guys seem to beat your "-3's" a fair amount of times. No one else beats them because no one else is you, or 4God's, or Atomsk's level (well maybe Co18 in his prime and 9B when he played Dedede.)

 

[Coney]

Coney, you have the most depressing MU spread, I have ever seen lmao.

Then again, you've been where no other Dedede has.

But two things:

as -3? Did fighting Gnes at Apex really sway your opinion that much?

And what do you base off of? Just curious.

i've played gnes twice in tourney and both times it was a complete wash, ADHD too. just literally...SO little options if played right, very little risk on diddy's end. then again, i'm admittedly pretty bad at the matchup, so i may be exaggerating

theorycraft, mostly. i do okay against falcos typically but there's no denying it's an uphill battle and i have no doubt that if i were to fight one of the best in tourney, i'd get molested. it's just so hard to do anything when he's better than you both up close and far away.

Don't you beat Logic and Lie regularly? And 4God beats Kismet and Player-1. And Atomsk has taken out the whole world I think. You guys seem to beat your "-3's" a fair amount of times. No one else beats them because no one else is you, or 4God's, or Atomsk's level (well maybe Co18 in his prime and 9B when he played Dedede.)

1) not anymore, they just camp me harder :/

2) the first time he beat kismet, it's because of some advice i gave him about the matchup...4god's hella good but i think he's getting a lot of what i got, which is people just not camping him hard enough. maybe i'm wrong and like i said, i'd love for him to prove me wrong on this.

3) why do you think atomsk stopped playing ddd? couldn't win against that bull**** anymore.

4) maybe, but i'm not talking about player-1 or kismet. i'm talking dehf, adhd, dabuz, them...you put a top DDD against a top any-of-those, the DDD will lose. that's what top-level play is

i mean, me being able to beat logic or lie or whatever doesn't matter because even if i am the top of my character, they're not even widely considered top 3 with theirs

i know it seems depressing, but prove me wrong. i've been there and i don't think this character can do it.

then again

i think when i was in practice, in my prime, i did a lot of **** i never thought i could, so maybe i'm just so far away from that i've forgotten all about it. this is just how i see it for now, though

 

[allshort17]

Fine. I accept your challenge. But, I want something cool in return if I complete it.

 

[Player-1]

adhd and gnes suk tho

 

[~ Gheb ~]

You have a Dedede?

I did not know this.

Also...

How do you figure we beat ?

I'm curious about that one.

Yeah, I bust him out here and there when I feel like an opponent's playstyle just begs to be ***** by DDD or when I'm against characters that I'm not sure about what to do with other characters. He's also one of my favorite characters to use in friendlies and the people in my areas are quite the tier *****s [two Diddies, one good Falco, an IC player who seconds Olimar, a Snake player who is good at the match-up and everybody has a pocket MK] and also use second characters like ZSS, GW, Wario, Marth ... I feel like I know most high / top tier match-ups sans Olimar and Pikachu rather well. I'm trying to keep my DDD up on a level where I can use him as a viable 2nd character.

Regarding Toon Link:
Since DDD's technical requirements are limited it's important in his match-ups to find the right tactic. Keep the following in mind when playing Toon Link:
- He can throw out a lot of attacks in rapid succession, which allows him to counter sidestep
- Rolling towards him generally doesn't work and rolling away removes stage control from you
- His grab isn't only poor but his throws are unrewarding as well

Conclusion: Shield is the preferred defensive option. Sidestep only when it looks like your shield can't stand anymore pressure [learn to angle it!] and rolling backwards when you have a lot of stage control to not put yourself in a disadvantaged position. Generally, I believe it's better to shield too long in this match-up and accept that you might get grabbed here and there than to use another defensive option and get put in a worse situation / under pressure through it.

How to approach him:
- Ftilt is probably not safe on block against him but it's a good interceptor for his aerial stuff [if he's not up high].
- Bair beats or trades with his aerials, is faster than zair and can hit through it from slightly below, cancels boomerang and can catch bombs. Look out for situations like this - if you catch him in a spot where bair hit through his zair he has to make a decision between getting hit [bad for him, especially at low %] or dodging in the air [DDD can punish those hard by either catching his landing or trap him with a 2nd bair]. The risk is minimal: getting hit by zair or a bomb doesn't do that much to you.
- Always stay closer to the ground than TL does, even if you challenge him in the air. If he camps in the air with projectiles I typically try to shield bombs coming from above and walk towards the area Toon Link is gonna land. It's not about punishing his landing from then on but keeping him in that position, where you are in his face [it's the only one where you can fish for grabs]. It's hard for him to reset it and if you get a hit it it's almost always rewarding.
- Juggling him doesn't work but you can ledge trap him hard. Try to create situations where TL has to go to the ledge. The two previous points give you an idea how to go about this.
- Watch Atomsk vs MJG for reference.

That's what your curious about? I'm more concerned on why he thinks Diddy and Falco to be -1.

top level of play here:

-3
-2
-1
+0:
+1:

i may seem pessimistic but let me ask you something:

do you see any ddd, ever, beating any of the top -3s?

willing to change my mind if something comes along...

(btw that something might be 4god. he plays a competent diddy and falco pretty often, but i can't help but think the tops of those characters would just demolish him, as well as any other ddd)

I've seen DDD beating Diddy enough times ... and it's come close many times so anything beyond -2 is simply not backed up by results. Even if your personal results against Diddy are so bad. We still have 4god having a slight winning record (?) over P1 and in Japan Isotaku also came last hit against Suinoko's Diddy. I'm pretty sure there's a video of Addy's DDD on youtube somewhere that should give people a really good idea on how to play it on FD even.
Falco vs DDD generally doesn't happen in tourney anymore but from personal experience I can't see it as worse than -2 either. But I'm leaning towards -1 too because 4god seems to do just fine against kismet.

If anything I'd move Fox to -2 before I'd move Falco / Diddy there.

 

[Player-1]

4god doesn't have a winning record against me, we're like 5-2 or something like that, it's just that the 2 times he's beaten me were the last 2 times we've played.

 

[hichez50]

Yeah more recent game carry more weight. Sure DDD has major problems versus MK, Olimar, and IC, but so do a whole bunch of other characters.

 

[Exdeath]

top level of play here:

-3
-2
-1
+0:
+1:

I'd move to -2 and I think that might be a -1, but other than that this is pretty much what I've been thinking.

The only top representative(s) of the respective -3 characters to lose to -- that I can recall -- is , and I don't think that anyone here disagrees that he's ~+3 with . 9B was using the infinite against Nagahari toward the end and still getting wrecked. CO18 traded wins with Dekar back when CO18 was considered top 10 in the world. CO18 and Coney are the best representatives of vs. and I don't think that either have or could have -- defeated a of DEHF's caliber. CO18 considered to be 's worst match-up and I sometimes share the opinion. I believe that Coney already pointed out , and considering that he's the best at the match-up, I'm going to take his word on it. I'm confused as to how 4GOD going to last hit against Kismet when Kismet obviously SDs twice at low % translates to "The Falco match-up isn't that bad."

 

[Doc King]

Matchup Chart imo (Ordered):

-3:
-2:
-1:
0:
1:
2:
3:
4:

 

[Seagull Joe]

@Doc King: definitely +3's . That's a matchup that feels hopeless because all your options can be shut down so easily, you get gimped, and you never can kill him. Even without Cg would still lose to like -2 probably. Dthrow>Dtilt still guaranteed and Bthrow does a ****load. As someone who has played the top 's I can say it's not a -2, but definitely a -3. I'm just excellent at the matchup.

Coney may be pessimistic and I agree more with Gheb's spread (Though I'd switch and ), but I back him as the actual who has always brought in the fried penguin snackings.

THOUGH, I'll never agree to being even with . forever winning. Look at how Jbandrew wrecked Fatal recently who is supposed to be good vs . Or how Atomsk has always wrecked or YOU.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

DDD really doesn't beat Snake, Joe. I don't care what you think about Fatal vs JBand, the overall set count is very close to even like everywhere in the world and you can't exactly claim that Fatal is a s good right now as he used to be. I could point out the mistakes Fatal made in the set and how much they cost him but it'd be hypoctical because I know I couldn't do any better. Watch stuff like Ganbaranai vs 9B though and you really get an idea what Snake can do to DDD.

All the stuff that people claim that DDD supposedly has against Snake, Snake has against DDD as well. People say Snake can't land vs DDD but do you think DDD can land against a good Snake? Nope. One Dthrow x2 -> ftilt easily makes up for a CG and most people don't even know that Snake can edgeguard DDD quite decently. Oh, and if DDD can juggle Snake, Snake can juggle DDD easily just as much.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Hello there. I've really decided im gonna co main d3 with my peach. Do I will be here from now on.

Heya there! I've seen your Peach, it's impressive and inspiring! I do hope you enjoy your stay here at the Dedede boards! :3

Ally plays Dedede!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kv_sQxQ1wdQ&feature=relmfu

Welcome to the future of the metagame.

Wooot. Dedede getting some rep.

Oh snap! You took a game? Aerodrome's gettin' up there now.

I'm happy that you made fifth and took a game from him, sincerely.

Thanks <3

Who does Amaterasu play? I've heard of him but know virtually nothing about him.

Good stuff either way Aero.

This reminds me...I want a name change but I fear its too late. I want an epic one word name though.

Ammy uses Snake.

God I ****ing hate wifi sfjsojfoajfaoj

So ****ing annoying as a D3 main

Wi-Fi is the worst as most characters >.>

Hey fellow DDD's !
I've kinda like started playing DDD to counter some annoying *** middle- and low tiers

Hello thar! Welcome to the boards!

top level of play here:

-3
-2
-1
+0:
+1:

i may seem pessimistic but let me ask you something:

do you see any ddd, ever, beating any of the top -3s?

willing to change my mind if something comes along...

(btw that something might be 4god. he plays a competent diddy and falco pretty often, but i can't help but think the tops of those characters would just demolish him, as well as any other ddd)

Disagree with Diddy, but only because Zelda goes -2 with him so I can't see Zelda having better options than Dedede tbh.

Probably not very watertight logic, but that's just my opinion anyway lol.

 

[White91]

If its a negitive matchup with ddd, its hell. I don't need intergers to tell me that falco isn't as hard as mk or olimar or ics. Falco ics and olimar can either go really well, or incredibly bad



But ofcourse it usually always goes completly awful

 

[allshort17]

Dedede would beat Snake if we could do the CG things. Bair, Upsmash, the infinite. Oh, how I await the day.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

Um, hey DDD boards. o/ I may start hanging around here more often in my quest to start using DDD well (at least better than I have been doing up until now). Not really a DDD main, but I sometimes use him. Going to be learning him because he's an amusing character to me, I like the Kirby series, heavyweights, CGs and the U-Tilt.

Oh, and I need to get rid of a Snake player and DDD's the one up to the task.

 

[Doc King]

@Doc King: definitely +3's . That's a matchup that feels hopeless because all your options can be shut down so easily, you get gimped, and you never can kill him. Even without Cg would still lose to like -2 probably. Dthrow>Dtilt still guaranteed and Bthrow does a ****load. As someone who has played the top 's I can say it's not a -2, but definitely a -3. I'm just excellent at the matchup.

Coney may be pessimistic and I agree more with Gheb's spread (Though I'd switch and ), but I back him as the actual who has always brought in the fried penguin snackings.

THOUGH, I'll never agree to being even with . forever winning. Look at how Jbandrew wrecked Fatal recently who is supposed to be good vs . Or how Atomsk has always wrecked or YOU.

I've been kind of disagreeing with the good Dedede matchup spread I've did. You are pretty much right.

It's kind of like the Mario matchup but except Wolf is faster and can land moves more easily.

Dedede would beat Snake if we could do the CG things. Bair, Upsmash, the infinite. Oh, how I await the day.

He would.

Here's what I think a theory matchup spread would be (Ordered):

-4:
-3:
-2:
-1:
0:
1:
2:
3:
4:

 

[Deleted member 189823]

Oh please, even I know Fatso-MK isn't THAT bad.

 

[Doc King]

Theory mk can just get a quick hit and just plank for the rest of the match.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

If that were to be applied to everything, every MU would be +4 in his favor. There's also a limit to planking in some tournaments.

 

[Seagull Joe]

I've been kind of disagreeing with the good Dedede matchup spread I've did. You are pretty much right.

It's kind of like the Mario matchup but except Wolf is faster and can land moves more easily.

He would.

Here's what I think a theory matchup spread would be (Ordered):

-4:
-3:
-2:
-1:
0:
1:
2:
3:
4:

I said it was -3 for , but not -4. still has as good a chance as those in the -3 category ( should probably be a +3 for as well to be honest). and get 0-deathed by 1 grab, which makes sense for being +4, but does not...

In theory would avoid each grab with spaced Bairs on shield and shine when he has to making the matchup even. I dislike theory brawl.

 

[Doc King]

If that were to be applied to everything, every MU would be +4 in his favor. There's also a limit to planking in some tournaments.

Kind of like how the climbers would go +4 against everyone. I mentioned it was theory. Climbers would go even with themselves and mk (One mistake from both = loss) and go +4 against everyone else.

I said it was -3 for , but not -4. still has as good a chance as those in the -3 category ( should probably be a +3 for as well to be honest). and get 0-deathed by 1 grab, which makes sense for being +4, but does not...

In theory would avoid each grab with spaced Bairs on shield and shine when he has to making the matchup even. I dislike theory brawl.

King Dedede could just buffer pivot grab him 5 times and then walk off chaingrab him. This gives Dedede a grand lead. Also once Wolf reaches a certain percent (Which will happen with a bunch of d throws Dedede does) Dedede can just lock him. I'm pretty sure Dedede can just pivot grab Wolf or spot dodge the shine and get the grab.

Some of the +3's I've put could be considered +4's.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

I said it was -3 for , but not -4. still has as good a chance as those in the -3 category ( should probably be a +3 for as well to be honest). and get 0-deathed by 1 grab, which makes sense for being +4, but does not...

In theory would avoid each grab with spaced Bairs on shield and shine when he has to making the matchup even. I dislike theory brawl.

You know, even though Bowser is huge (the biggest character in the game), that doesn't mean he's that easy to get grabbed if the Bowser player knows what he's doing. There are viable options to avoid getting grabbed and approach safely (Klaw hopping) and Fortress OoS and Firebreath as defensive mechanisms. 0-death could just be overdoing it. DK, like Wolf, has a good-ranged and speed B-Air to space.

 

[1PokeMastr]

Treats for my fellow Penguins.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWysxpCVQkE&feature=youtu.be

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnVzdQwknyU&feature=youtu.be

 

[ぱみゅ]

Shameless promotion http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=323048

 

[Doc King]

Treats for my fellow Penguins.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWysxpCVQkE&feature=youtu.be

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnVzdQwknyU&feature=youtu.be

No offense, but this stuff is old and really not needed. Plus you forgot to mention Dedede's infinite on Yoshi and Snake and some others. He also has other stuff like this slope infinite on Wario and this d throw to up smash on Peach on slopes.

I can never understand why some AT's I've found about Dedede ages ago is like never referenced to at all like it doesn't exist and why many ppl don't know about it after bull****ting and overrating it to the extreme just to make it noticeable. Other situational and theory things like Zelda's d tilt to bair on D3 and ZSS's air release chaingrab on D3 are sometimes mentioned but for Dedede stuff, nothing.

I've been holding this back a while, but it's really starting to piss me off. Even top Dedede players don't use his moveset to the fullest. Sometimes not even the simplest AT's that most people know about.

I know he has a stupid easy move but just because you have something like that doesn't mean finding new stuff is useless. It just doesn't make sense and I'm like confused about it and want to know why.

Every other character ppl explore (Lucas, ZSS, Yoshi, etc.). I don't see why Dedede doesn't get anything. If you're reading this and are just saying "**** this" then you might as well just not bother to play Dedede or even look at him.

I really don't care too much, but I just don't get the point. It seems like Brawl is so fanbased that some characters theorys are ****ed because of bad fanbase and hatred.

I'm leaving the boards. It's just dumb in here.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

By e.

 

[Bobwithlobsters]

^ aerodrome is my favorite.

 

[4GOD (JJV)]

4god doesn't have a winning record against me, we're like 5-2 or something like that, it's just that the 2 times he's beaten me were the last 2 times we've played.

Pretty sure we're even. Here's our chronological tournament history (correct me if I'm wrong):

The name of the tournament where we first played (POOLS): I won
MOMOCON (MM): You won
Iron Brawl II (BRACKET): You won
HASL II (BRACKET): You won
Salt Mines III (BRACKET): I won
Salty Spitoon (BRACKET): I won

So we're either 2-2 or 3-3 depending the importance of MM's and pool matches.

No hate, just friendly rivalry <3

 

[Doc King]

You guys seriously just quit playing Dedede. You will only get worse and end up failing. It's just ****ing ******** why you wouldn't want to expand someones metagame that depends on you.

Wouldn't you Dedede's want Dedede to rise in the tier list, get more money, become more famous, develop this awful and limited metagame? I just wanna say this, but I'm not doing this just for me but for you guys. But if you don't want help that's fine and I'll find other AT's for different characters to use on your ignored potential character.

I know it's not game breaking, it's just something helpful. You should take advice from people, it can help out in situations.

R.I.P. King Dedede

And you guys wonder why Dedede keeps dropping in the tier list. In fact, this doesn't affect me at all and you guys life actually depends on it. Kind of sad how you guys wouldn't help yourselves.

Just keep down throwing while having no other options, eventually gonna get beat by Zelda and Jigglypuff, and Squirtle -5. Can't wait till that happens.

 

[ぱみゅ]

gb2melee...

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

You guys seriously just quit playing Dedede. You will only get worse and end up failing. It's just ****ing ******** why you wouldn't want to expand someones metagame that depends on you.

Wouldn't you Dedede's want Dedede to rise in the tier list, get more money, become more famous, develop this awful and limited metagame? I just wanna say this, but I'm not doing this just for me but for you guys. But if you don't want help that's fine and I'll find other AT's for different characters to use on your ignored potential character.

I know it's not game breaking, it's just something helpful. You should take advice from people, it can help out in situations.

R.I.P. King Dedede

And you guys wonder why Dedede keeps dropping in the tier list. In fact, this doesn't affect me at all and you guys life actually depends on it. Kind of sad how you guys wouldn't help yourselves.

Just keep down throwing while having no other options, eventually gonna get beat by Zelda and Jigglypuff, and Squirtle -5. Can't wait till that happens.

I thought you were leaving...?

Regardless, let me address a few points.

For starters, I highly doubt that anyone wonders why this character to drop on the tier list. His weaknesses and bad matchups are as clear and his playstyle.

Now basically from what I'm getting from your 2 part *****fest is that you're butthurt that no one is actively using you discoveries. While they are appreciated, you have to remember how situational ALL of them are. As Coney and any other great Dedede will tell you, gimmicks are nice to have but they're not going to win you sets. You're advocating that we start making your discoveries staples and that's just not practical at high levels of play. Nearly every Advanced Technique has its time and place but they will never replace good ol' fashioned fundamentals and reads.

Lastly, this is no one's life. Not even my own....the man who has put more time into reviving these boards and researching the character more than anyone since 2009. I work and go to school full tim. Many others here do at least one of those things. So you're statement is off base.

I'm not going to waste my time insulting you because it's not worth it and it not what I am attempting to do. Plus, someone else is going to do it anyway.

Anyway Dedede will never be an overly popular character without the discovery of something absolutely ground breaking. However, we're far from dead. I have ensured that. As long as people like myself, 4GOD, DewDaDash, Exdeath, Bubba and all the other regulars continue to keep growing, we will always maintain a presence. In what little spare time, I will keep trying to help these boards. I'm always going to main this character or at least play him competitively. He's fun and that's what it should be about.

If you can't respect that, then get the **** out of our boards.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Why do you care so much about 'getting ddd up on the tier list' and 'getting ddd money' and 'make ddd more famous'

Its a fictional character dude, your going way too hard for a person that doesn't really exist. Actin like this is yo momma or your wife or something...

 

[Doc King]

I actually don't care. I was just curious why you guys don't use certain AT's or explore. I was kind of mad how some cool stuff I've found never gets talked about when other stuff do.

 

[DewDaDash]

We probably just don't find it practical to use dude. I'd love to use the infinite on snake but that **** ain't practical one bit.

if you feel your stuff is good then use it in tourneys, record it, win money, and prove us wrong. Personally I feel explaining MU situations and what tactics work is better, but that's just me.

Not really sure why your going H.A.M. with your argument, just chill out lol.

Huh... so i took the time to read back to see what this was about. I found the 1st video useful xD. I thought the upsmash could work on snake but apparently not, thanks for the clarification =). Also kind of forgot that tactic since its been awhile since ive played, ty.

lmfao, i took the time to read this, and this right here killed me.

And you guys wonder why Dedede keeps dropping in the tier list. In fact, this doesn't affect me at all and you guys life actually depends on it. Kind of sad how you guys wouldn't help yourselves.

How does my life depend on this rofl.

 

[da K.I.D.]

I'm sorry doc. Good players tend to focus first and foremost on solid fundamentals and tactics that work on all or most character/players, and then match up specific stuf against the best or biggest problem characters. In terms of ranking over all importance, the vast majority of stuff you talk about ranks about the same as that 'uses for jet hammer' thread that I read a while back.

 

[jbandrew]

DDD really doesn't beat Snake, Joe. I don't care what you think about Fatal vs JBand, the overall set count is very close to even like everywhere in the world and you can't exactly claim that Fatal is a s good right now as he used to be. I could point out the mistakes Fatal made in the set and how much they cost him but it'd be hypoctical because I know I couldn't do any better. Watch stuff like Ganbaranai vs 9B though and you really get an idea what Snake can do to DDD.

All the stuff that people claim that DDD supposedly has against Snake, Snake has against DDD as well. People say Snake can't land vs DDD but do you think DDD can land against a good Snake? Nope. One Dthrow x2 -> ftilt easily makes up for a CG and most people don't even know that Snake can edgeguard DDD quite decently. Oh, and if DDD can juggle Snake, Snake can juggle DDD easily just as much.

This x10. Joe... you can ask me, you can ask Atomsk. Obviously, all the snakes are going to cry about DDD because nobody likes getting chaingrabbed/juggled, and DDD does have some really good tools against snake. But snake has the same tools against DDD with his powerful camping game, ridiculously damaging tilts, and stage control/landing traps. If you take this into consideration it means that Snake can juggle DDD as well as DDD can juggle snake if not WORSE due to DDD's fatness.

I use snake at a high level too, and using both characters, and playing the matchup from BOTH sides of the spectrum, it's definetely even-ish because of how hard it is for DDD to get in if the snake is constantly/correctly camping walling DDD out. The only reason DDD would be able to get in is because of human error (usually the case), or a read, which benefit EVERY character in the game. This matchup is even in my opinion. DDD does not beat Snake. So please stop <_<. If you had payed attention to the bracket of that tournament you would have seen that I did beat Fatal, but further into the bracket I lost to Bizkit in losers. So yea.