Dash Grab Spacing and Why We Suck at Brawl

[Conviction]

Yeah it is the same thing lol just he's looking at it from up close, giving peach most of her options. I wonder how Peach fairs against someone who spaces around her DA range. Hmmmm...I'll try it against Hero this Friday.

 

[Cassio]

Hugs made a blog with a similar concept and similar pics once.

Zone -Green
Bad Zone - Red
Neutral Zone - Yellow (The part in front of rob is a mix of Red/Green, it is not a neutral zone)

If I was anywhere in that 33%, I left myself open to a chain grab. If I was in the right or left 33%, i had to make sure that DDD was in the middle 33%, and that I was closest to the ledge. This assures that if I did get chaingrabbed, I would only receive 1-2 grabs max. By understanding my good zones, and bad zones, I managed to employ insane amounts of stage control in the match up. I REFUSED to land anywhere in that middle 33% when the DDD was even remotely on ground defense.

I would see him in his good zone and I would say to myself "Don't fight it, he already won, retreat". You see how this knowledge works?

In this example, I am using Falco. These zones are all there assuming the falco does not change positions.
Green - Good Zone
Red - Bad Zone
Yellow - Neutral Zone

The reason there is a green zone in between the red zone is because when I place myself there, it is close enough for my ftilt to reach him, but far enough where his jabs/grabs won't. Sure, he could hit me with a shine, but if i shield it, he's open for an easy attack. Clearly falco would prefer to be farther away or much closer when I am in that green zone. If I end up behind falco, it is also a good zone.

The neutral (Yellow) zone is the zone I use to approach. I avoid lasers and move in closer to my green zone. My bad zones include the area in front of falco (lasers), directly in front (jabs), and directly above (Nairs). However, to his northeast side, I have a good zone(green) because here he cannot hit me with a nair, and he must resort to shielding any fair/Nair attempts.

Keep in mind, zones change as people move. This picture was just there to illustrate their existence.

http://allisbrawl.com/blogpost.aspx?id=16108

I know this is off topic a bit, but theres a lot of old stuff melee peeps knew that was relevant to Brawl that wasnt adopted broadly in brawl because up until recently our communities mindset was "lul brawl skillz i just play at tournaments ". Even melee players were guilty of this because they saw skill in brawl as vastly inferior to melee. People like teh spammerer came around and pushed this notion that skill was not as important if you could play mindlessly gay, and it trickled down to the communities core until japan came and woke us up.

Spoiler

I find it somewhat ironic that the gay gameplay trickled into melee after several of their players were the ones who introduced it into brawl then left

. But yeah, perusing the melee boards and some of their topics and videos on this subject and others can be very interesting.

Edit: Something else relevant from the blog:

"But HugS, aren't you just talking about 'spacing'?"

No! This blog is not about spacing. There are distinct differences between spacing and zoning.
People have made claims as to how good my spacing is. And I'm not going to lie, it's fantastic. However, spacing is just a tool that aids me in what I'm really doing.

I'm constantly trying to put myself in my good zone, and making sure you remain in your bad zone. That's what proper zoning is all about. Zoning is the big picture, spacing is just your little pal that helps you take advantage of it.

In more specific terms, spacing is for the actual combat, Zoning is what creates the opportunity for that combat to take place. You can be great at the actual combat, but if you place yourself in a zone where your entire battle is essentially done at a disadvantage, you are setting yourself up for failure.

Wish Hugs would still write about stuff like this/still played brawl

 

[Sharky]

Yeah it is the same thing lol just he's looking at it from up close, giving peach most of her options. I wonder how Peach fairs against someone who spaces around her DA range. Hmmmm...I'll try it against Hero this Friday.

Anyways, a Burst Option would be the option that you can use within a Burst Range that an opponent cannot realistically react to. Every move technically has its own burst range. Jabs, for example, are very fast burst options. However, because they're, well, Jabs, their effective Burst Range is quite small, making them not useful for the idea of spacing that I'm describing.

The Burst Range/Burst Option concept I'm talking about in this thread is at neutral. It has a lot to do with not being right in your opponent's face, as I consider that CQC or "Boxing", which works a lot differently since it's a lot more fast paced and usually deals with more active hitboxes.

Ideally, your Burst Option is the attack with the most range that the opponent cannot realistically react to, thus giving you the most Burst Range. You want to combine speed + range.

Once again, not what we're talking about

 

[Conviction]

Derp, he said not ideal spacing. Too bad we all aren't perfect and can't avoid being closed in on LOL

Anyways peach's jab does have speed and range.

 

[Sharky]

I'm not talking about ideal spacing, I'm saying that's NOT BURST RANGE -____________-

peach's jab is just like anyone else's jab....it doesn't have any sort of amazing range compared to other jabs so don't gimme that bs

 

[Kuro~]

Subscribing.

 

[Delta-cod]

This is a cool thread, I was visualizing this exact thing the other day for Peach. "Burst range" just sounds like good spacing, lol. This is why Peach's jab is so good - she owns that space.

That's an awesome picture.

jab range is just boxing/cqc, not the same thing

Not necessarily true, but in most cases, yeah. Jabbing shouldn't really be a burst range thing...

Hugs made a blog with a similar concept and similar pics once.


http://allisbrawl.com/blogpost.aspx?id=16108

I know this is off topic a bit, but theres a lot of old stuff melee peeps knew that was relevant to Brawl that wasnt adopted broadly in brawl because up until recently our communities mindset was "lul brawl skillz i just play at tournaments ". Even melee players were guilty of this because they saw skill in brawl as vastly inferior to melee. People like ispamtornado came around and pushed this notion that skill was not as important if you could play mindlessly gay, and it trickled down to the communities core until japan came and woke us up. I find it somewhat ironic that the gay gameplay trickled into melee after several of their players were the ones who introduced it into brawl then left. But yeah, perusing the melee boards and some of their topics and videos on this subject and others can be very interesting.

Edit: Something else relevant from the blog:

Wish Hugs would still write about stuff like this/still played brawl

Thanks for posting this! All these concepts are definitely related. I like the way Hugs stresses good and bad zones. I think of that more as positioning, personally, as in I put myself in a position where, if I'm going to get punished, it's not as hard a punish as it would be in a different position. But that's mainly just a difference in semantics we have.

Also, Iblis, while Peach's jab is good for boxing, it's not a burst option... It's definitely a good tool defensively, if your zone is broken, but you don't really use it to create the zone. That's what Sharky's talking about.

 

[Conviction]

So baiting the jab? Not going to work? That's what I think of as zones. But if that's the critreria you are going by then, okay I see. I'm sorry.

 

[Delta-cod]

Well, talking strictly about Burst Spacing/Options, you're looking for the move with the most range that can't be realistically reacted to (according to what I originally posted).

You're not wrong about anything, you're just extending the topic into applications of spacing/zoning (mainly baiting, which can be developed a lot once this idea is understood). You're talking about something other than what Sharky is talking about, which is where the little argument is coming from.

 

[Conviction]

Ah, okay. Let me get something straight then, is this thread strictly for the concept and this concept only? I hope not. Expansion is key, you know?

Hm, I really want to add more to the convo but like I said, I'll wait to I get a non-wifi opponent, which won't be until Friday and the tourney after.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

You underestimate the Brawl community imo

I'm **** at Brawl and I'd already seen that video, which opened my eyes in the same way it seemingly did yours. Considering it was made by a good Melee player, I'm sure top-level Brawlers understand the concept... lol

EDIT: Directed at OP

 

[Delta-cod]

Ah, okay. Let me get something straight then, is this thread strictly for the concept and this concept only? I hope not. Expansion is key, you know?

Hm, I really want to add more to the convo but like I said, I'll wait to I get a non-wifi opponent, which won't be until Friday and the tourney after.

This thread is most certainly open to expansion. I was just clearing up the little fight you two were having because you were both talking about different things.

You underestimate the Brawl community imo

I'm **** at Brawl and I'd already seen that video, which opened my eyes in the same way it seemingly did yours. Considering it was made by a good Melee player, I'm sure top-level Brawlers understand the concept... lol

EDIT: Directed at OP

I really don't, lol.

Of course top level Brawl players understand this. That's why they're top level.

The problem is is that below that level, some high and most of mid level players don't really know this concept. This thread isn't directed towards the players who know about this already (although they're very welcome to come in here to discuss things and help out). This thread is to help players who don't understand this idea, learn this idea and use it to improve themselves.

I posted this in the Yoshi boards, and I got a ton of feedback from other mains of my character that they didn't know this concept at all, and that they'd use it to step up their game. Even higher level Yoshi mains who were using this concept enjoyed the read, because they were doing it without understanding it. Once you understand a concept, you can grow with it and expand it.

Just because you understand the concept and had already seen Lucien's video doesn't mean everyone else has. Do you really think the majority of Brawl players really understand this concept well? No. If they did, I wouldn't be beating people just by abusing Burst Spacing.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I like where this thread is going now. It seems people are getting more to the very basis of the concept rather than scratching the surface with some superficial Yoshi Dash Attack nonsense.

I don't agree with HugS' terminology because the distinction between spacing and zoning remains unclear and I can't think of a way to define spacing and zoning as individual entities with the way he approaches these terms. Somebody who has contact to him should bring this thread to his attention because I'm curious to hear him elaborate on this subject.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Delta, it just seemed a bit silly to say "we've been playing Brawl wrong".

 

[Scatz]

@Gheb: It WAS posted on the YOSHI boards when it was made, and it wasn't concerning just one move. He just used Dash Grab as the best example for it.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

@Gheb: It WAS posted on the YOSHI boards when it was made, and it wasn't concerning just one move. He just used Dash Grab as the best example for it.

I know about all of that. Still I think most people on the Yoshi boards didn't quite understand the concept and were misinterpreting this as Dash Attack or Dash Grab being particularly powerful tools in regards to burst spacing, which I don't think is true at all. Yoshi's most important tools are ... Egg Lay, ftilt, aerial mobility and some Egg Toss although I maintain that that move is overrated. Still important for Yoshi though.

 

[Cassio]

Grim keep in mind being aware of the concepts is different from internalizing and applying them. I think these sorts of conceptual ideas are more difficult to understand, and so end up taking a backseat to less important but more easily understood gameplay variables like MU numbers, the 'perfect' or most 'fair' ruleset/stagelist, etc.

Gheb I dont think he meant to completely separate spacing and zoning so much as characterize spacing as a technical component of zoning. But youre right that he didnt explain spacing as it relates to zoning well, so I could be interpreting that incorrectly.

btw heres another video. Explanations are great, but unfortunately the quality is very poor x_x
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9MSV9LTHRM

 

[EthereaL]

Zoning is the relative stage control / option control given yourself and your opponent's position. This is constantly changing based on player-based tactics and positioning.

Spacing is the battle for the "sweetspots" where your moves are the most effective, and your opponents aren't (i.e. Hitting a shield outside of SG range is generally considered "good spacing").

Burst-range spacing is, simply put, the range at which you are a threat to your opponent. I don't like the term "unable to react", because, quite simply, reaction times don't matter nearly as much as it gives emphasis to. The range they have to be in order to truly make reaction impossible is insanely close, and even then, reads determine the winner of such a "burst attack" far more than reaction time.

Although, I do agree that most Brawlers suck (myself included), and the level of play that is the "human pinnacle" no player has achieved, and few players have striven for.

 

[Sharky]

I know about all of that. Still I think most people on the Yoshi boards didn't quite understand the concept and were misinterpreting this as Dash Attack or Dash Grab being particularly powerful tools in regards to burst spacing, which I don't think is true at all. Yoshi's most important tools are ... Egg Lay, ftilt, aerial mobility and some Egg Toss although I maintain that that move is overrated. Still important for Yoshi though.

10wtfftilts

 

[Yikarur]

Ftilt is a great move :D

 

[deepseadiva]

I don't agree with HugS' terminology because the distinction between spacing and zoning remains unclear and I can't think of a way to define spacing and zoning as individual entities with the way he approaches these terms.

I think it's clear. This is an excellent summary:

Zoning is the relative stage control / option control given yourself and your opponent's position. This is constantly changing based on player-based tactics and positioning.

Spacing is the battle for the "sweetspots" where your moves are the most effective, and your opponents aren't (i.e. Hitting a shield outside of SG range is generally considered "good spacing").

Burst-range spacing is, simply put, the range at which you are a threat to your opponent. I don't like the term "unable to react", because, quite simply, reaction times don't matter nearly as much as it gives emphasis to. The range they have to be in order to truly make reaction impossible is insanely close, and even then, reads determine the winner of such a "burst attack" far more than reaction time.

Although, I do agree that most Brawlers suck (myself included), and the level of play that is the "human pinnacle" no player has achieved, and few players have striven for.

 

[Conviction]

Thanks for that video Cassio I think it was very informative. Makes me wonder why Falcos don't SHDL to force people that are falling from a juggle to choose an option.

I say people don't understand it, because if they do understand it, then they should be able to apply it imo.

How is Ftilt not a burst option?

 

[Sharky]

He said it's one of our three BEST moves, that's what I'm questioning lol

 

[tarextherex]

I know about all of that. Still I think most people on the Yoshi boards didn't quite understand the concept and were misinterpreting this as Dash Attack or Dash Grab being particularly powerful tools in regards to burst spacing, which I don't think is true at all. Yoshi's most important tools are ... Egg Lay, ftilt, aerial mobility and some Egg Toss although I maintain that that move is overrated. Still important for Yoshi though.

Dash grab might be very laggy but it's still a great burst range option since it's very difficult to punish one on reaction when it's well spaced, so it still was a good exemple for burst range. Even though this and some other burst range options like Marth's DB can be unsafe in certain situations, the point of this thread was to say that knowing exactly how to use those moves is very important for higher level play, and to explain what was exactly the concept of burst range.

Yoshi's dash attack is actually a pretty underrated move that works well to punish landings and can combo to a jab or another one sometimes, it should be used like ZSS's even though it's not as good

 

[Conviction]

He said it's one of our three BEST moves, that's what I'm questioning lol

Oh, I see.

Hm, I really want to add more to the convo but like I said, I'll wait to I get a non-wifi opponent, which won't be until Friday and the tourney after.

Actually, school is not beating me over the head and I finished the Japanese bracket translations for Gheb mad early so I'll be going to Chima's in a little and I'll save some matches.

 

[RaptorTEC]

Wow I didn't know Ftilt was THAT good... Time to implement it into my game

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I think it's clear. This is an excellent summary:

I don't agree with it but the subject will be brought up sooner or later anyway. This "summary" just summarizes what the conventional meaning of these terms is but not their technical meaning imo.

He said it's one of our three BEST moves, that's what I'm questioning lol

I don't see what's wrong with that. Other than Egg Lay ... it's pretty much Yoshi's best move. Egg Toss? Nowhere near as good.

Dash grab might be very laggy but it's still a great burst range option since it's very difficult to punish one on reaction when it's well spaced, so it still was a good exemple for burst range. Even though this and some other burst range options like Marth's DB can be unsafe in certain situations, the point of this thread was to say that knowing exactly how to use those moves is very important for higher level play, and to explain what was exactly the concept of burst range.

Yoshi's dash attack is actually a pretty underrated move that works well to punish landings and can combo to a jab or another one sometimes, it should be used like ZSS's even though it's not as good

What does any of that have to do with Burst Spacing? Dash Attack is not a difficult option to cover anyway so even if this was related to Burst Spacing [in which case Egg Lay, Ftilt and other moves are still better].

 

[Yikarur]

you underrate Egg Toss' versatility.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Just noone wants to wavebounce it or risk Eggrolling offstage/get punished onstage while trying to use it.
If you don't feel like wavebouncing it... have fun using DJ to throw atleast a second egg from short hopping.

 

[Sharky]

he underestimates yoshi in general, just don't feed the troll

 

[Sinister Slush]

There's nothing to underestimate with Yoshi, he's pretty bad.
If not bad, gimmicky.

 

[EthereaL]

Their conventional meaning is the only one applicable in general.

The "technical" meaning is useless, unless you want to get stage, frame, and move-specific. In which event, the conventional meanings remain the same, only now they have specific examples.

i.e. No matter how good Yoshi's Egg-toss-slide is as a zoning tool, the definition of a "good zoning tool" remains the same.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Randomly calling somebody out for "trolling" is a very generic troll attempt, Sharky.
I like to think that I have a rather solid understanding of the subject at hand and even though I have my very own terminology for these things a lot of people agreed with it and understood it - Delta being one of them [at least in out Aim convo he didn't leave the impression that he felt like getting trolled].

 

[Sharky]

Then I'm only left to wonder at statements like this and another one in the mu thread, where you state that yoshi is one of only 3 good mu's for mario. Either your understanding of the character is poor at best or you're trolling, and I'm not wasting any more time here.

 

[Delta-cod]

While I don't necessarily agree with Gheb's opinions on Yoshi specifically, I definitely agree with his views on spacing/zoning (he uses different definitions that he could explain better than I could).

But why is this thread still about Yoshi? Let's move on please.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Cause the thread was originally made in the Yoshi boards...
You should know this.

 

[Conviction]

Damn it, shut the **** up about Yoshi.

/salt

Okay, new direction. How can acharacter can give a sense of false commitment, thus making the opponent approach?

 

[phi1ny3]

Quick question, what exactly is the distinction between zoning and pressuring or stage control? It seems like zoning is a larger, more generic incorporation of spacing, pressuring, and/or control or presence of the area/stage.

Damn it, shut the **** up about Yoshi.

/salt

Okay, new direction. How can acharacter can give a sense of false commitment, thus making the opponent approach?

LUCARIO

AURA SPHERE CHARGE CANCEL MIXUPS

Seriously, this is basically the new Lucario meta, false commitment on something that should otherwise be ridiculously hard to land but really rewarding is mainly his new thing. Any decent Lucario knows that ASC is so psychologically important to pay attention to now, because if the opponent sees ASC starting up (especially if it's of a decent size), he has several options:
A: shield the supposed incoming AS
B: attempt to dodge/reflect/absorb it, or if the Lucario was stupid in spacing, attack him out of it.

B is usually riskier, so people opt for A. Lucario can either AD cancel as he's coming down from the air and then turn it into a basic ground option, or if he's on the ground, he can grab, roll (not usually recommended since this is an old option that people look for, but still useful), or jump -> aerial oos. This has made what was a huge hurdle of a commitment into a strength, because Aura sphere from charge stance is actually fairly fast and safe (it's just immediately firing that's so slow, frame 22 in immediate fire v. frame 8 from stance firing), and being able to jackknife into a bunch of different options on the go makes it harder to make an appropriate move against AS or the moves themselves.

Feigning over-extension or commitment is also what baiting is all about. If I throw out a move with either a lot of active frames or short cooldown, the opponent can often think they can retaliate. This is usually an arm's race though, because the opponent can in turn read this and take advantage of your whiffed move with enough time or reaction in adapting (like jumping above MK's fsmash to beat it with an aerial instead of trying to shield and punish lol). This isn't just limited to one move scenarios. Things like a fast jab1 on shield -> delayed SH aerial right after is a great way to land a good hit through baiting (this is more for chars like sheik, peach, Falco, etc.)

 

[Orion*]

this is soooo coool

jab range is just boxing/cqc, not the same thing

I'm glad you understand now

There's nothing to underestimate with Yoshi, he's pretty bad.
If not bad, gimmicky.

this

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Every time Jigglypuff Bairs, it is false commitment.