Dash Grab Spacing and Why We Suck at Brawl

[allshort17]

This is typically true, although DDD might have a sort of exception in that his Ftilt is pretty quick (I think so, anyways), and it has a lot of range. Burst Options and pokes aren't mutually exclusive, and I feel like DDD's ftilt might be one of the options that mixes the two. Even thought Ftilt might not seem like an amazingly rewarding hit to land, it pops your opponent up (changes his set of options to an aerial set) and breaks his spacing, which allows you to add more pressure.

Just to clearify, Ftilt isn't really a great poke nor burst option. Even though it does have great range, pops people in the air, and comes out on frame 12 it still can be easily shielded and punished if your character is fast enough. Also, it only effectively puts people in the air at about %60.

But thanks for the clarification. When you talked about burst range, I envisioned a circle around a character that could be applied in multiple situations. But, now I see you're thinking of more of just a horizontal line when characters are in neutral.

 

[Conviction]

A tournament set of videos for those looking to practice their knowledge on this concept. Practice your understanding by seeing if you see the concept being used and how it applys and scores them hits and how they get punished for messing it up or specific patterns they get from it.

@Allshort: Unlike Delta I think it's a circle.

So what exactly were you asking and I'll try my hand at answering it.

 

[allshort17]

A tournament set of videos for those looking to practice their knowledge on this concept. Practice your understanding by seeing if you see the concept being used and how it applys and scores them hits and how they get punished for messing it up or specific patterns they get from it.

@Allshort: Unlike Delta I think it's a circle.

So what exactly were you asking and I'll try my hand at answering it.

Now I'm not really asking anything. I just stated my thoughts.

 

[Sharky]

Just to clearify, Ftilt isn't really a great poke nor burst option. Even though it does have great range, pops people in the air, and comes out on frame 12 it still can be easily shielded and punished if your character is fast enough. Also, it only effectively puts people in the air at about %60.

But thanks for the clarification. When you talked about burst range, I envisioned a circle around a character that could be applied in multiple situations. But, now I see you're thinking of more of just a horizontal line when characters are in neutral.

if your f-tilt got read then you did it wrong.

 

[allshort17]

True actually now that I think of it Sharky.

 

[Delta-cod]

I don't think of Burst Range strictly as a horizontal line, but at neutral, the part of your Burst Range that matters is the horizontal part, because the vertical part really doesn't apply unless the state of the game isn't neutral. Like, if you're applying the vertical part, your opponent is usually above you (or you're above him...), which means he's in a disadvantaged spot AND has a limited option pool. This is where Vertical Burst Range comes in handy, because it essentially forces your opponent to do something while you're trying to juggle them without you needing to commit to anything.

MK's aerial SL is a good example of this. You're not really going to react to that move realistically (or maybe I'm just slow, lol). Since you can't react to it, you have to try and read when your opponent will use it and then you need to try and trade/dodge it. This SUCKS because it has so much speed and range and reward that your hand is pretty much forced, which means you're very liable to getting hit by the move. The best thing to try to do is to move back to a more even, horizontal plane, and then reset to neutral from there. Like, even MK hates being above MK, lol.

By the way, I editted the OP if anyone wants to check it out.

 

[Scatz]

Just to clearify, Ftilt isn't really a great poke nor burst option. Even though it does have great range, pops people in the air, and comes out on frame 12 it still can be easily shielded and punished if your character is fast enough. Also, it only effectively puts people in the air at about %60.

But thanks for the clarification. When you talked about burst range, I envisioned a circle around a character that could be applied in multiple situations. But, now I see you're thinking of more of just a horizontal line when characters are in neutral.

Ftilt IS a great poke in general characteristics, but it gets migitated from faster characters. In terms of burst options, I don't find D3 to have a fully legit burst option from the way he's designed. He's set on the clear fundamentals of footsies.

 

[Sarix]

I wish I could help, but I don't understand Samus at all

Well I can still experiment myself since I main her and report any findings I come up with . The Samus Boards are dead lately so I'll probably be the Lone Ranger in finding anything on this thread for her.

Nope, it seems like you're on a good course. I won't claim to be the expert on all things like this, but it looks like you're using this concept to enhance your baiting game at neutral, which is good.

Well that's great to know. So far it seems that using the concept definitely gives more viability in her ground game at neutral, not a ton, but more than before. I'm definitely going to keep testing this with Samus to find her best options, it might even...*gasp* give her a little bit easier time killing (Dramatic Music). With Cold Con coming up next week I plan to keep working on Burst Spacing since it already makes her Utilt and Dtilt a bit easier to land and I may surprise some people at the tourney.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Delta, if you want to talk to me you can reach me on AIM [gheb123] and Skype [Gbizzle] at any time. Just leave me a VM or PM and I'll be able to get on either messenger within ~45 minutes

 

[Z'zgashi]

Charge Shot is a good burst option for her if you have it charged all the way, but when it IS charged, people tend to be hyper-aware of all her movements, which cause them to pay even closer attention to their spacing.

Her zair is alright as an option, but most characters are too short to be hit by it without using it as you land, so it's only good for some match ups.

HOWEVER, Samus does have a VERY good Dash Attack as a burst option and if they dont DI it (which they shouldnt if you read them anyway), you can often get a follow up with uair or something as well.

Unfortunately though, Samus really doesnt have too many safe Burst Options, nor does she have many mix ups for them either, but thats unfortunately one of the main reasons she's not that great of a character. Her dash attack is your go to option for her, and it actually goes really far and puts you in a great position (it's almost exactly like Ganon's DA only you trade off kill potential for combo potential), Zair is an AMAZING option, but only works well on a fraction of the cast, and her Charge Shot is great if you have it ready, but it tends to make people pay more attention when you have it ready, which usually makes it harder to take advantage of it.

 

[Delta-cod]

Delta, if you want to talk to me you can reach me on AIM [gheb123] and Skype [Gbizzle] at any time. Just leave me a VM or PM and I'll be able to get on either messenger within ~45 minutes

I'll be adding you on Skype. I'm busy with class and stuff all the time, but I'll send you a message when I'm free. @_@

 

[Sarix]

Charge Shot is a good burst option for her if you have it charged all the way, but when it IS charged, people tend to be hyper-aware of all her movements, which cause them to pay even closer attention to their spacing.

Her zair is alright as an option, but most characters are too short to be hit by it without using it as you land, so it's only good for some match ups.

HOWEVER, Samus does have a VERY good Dash Attack as a burst option and if they dont DI it (which they shouldnt if you read them anyway), you can often get a follow up with uair or something as well.

Unfortunately though, Samus really doesnt have too many safe Burst Options, nor does she have many mix ups for them either, but thats unfortunately one of the main reasons she's not that great of a character. Her dash attack is your go to option for her, and it actually goes really far and puts you in a great position (it's almost exactly like Ganon's DA only you trade off kill potential for combo potential), Zair is an AMAZING option, but only works well on a fraction of the cast, and her Charge Shot is great if you have it ready, but it tends to make people pay more attention when you have it ready, which usually makes it harder to take advantage of it.

I do agree that Charge Shot is a good Burst Option except that the shiny blue spot on her arm cannon scares people very easily.

Zair in my opinion is more of a tool to interfere with the opponent's Burst Range/Options rather than a Burst option itself. It is incredibly safe so it lacks the commitments and punishments of a Burst Option which is why I don't consider it one.

I do agree her Dash Attack is a great Burst Option that can lead into a few combos.

I would also argue that her Dair makes for a good surprise Burst Option if you DI to pass over the opponent as the swipe begins. It's not horribly safe but it makes for good punishes and the knockdown animation gives her a second to get out of Burst Range.

 

[Z'zgashi]

I thought about including Dair/Fair, but they seemed a little too slow, however they both could work, Im not entirely sure. And I agree with Zair in the way you said it, but I think it still serves as a good Burst Option if they are too far for anything else to connect. Otherwise, your other options are always better.

 

[Sarix]

I thought about including Dair/Fair, but they seemed a little too slow, however they both could work, Im not entirely sure. And I agree with Zair in the way you said it, but I think it still serves as a good Burst Option if they are too far for anything else to connect. Otherwise, your other options are always better.

I agree that Dair is very timing dependent and good DI is a must to space it properly, I never found a Fair as reliable of a Burst Option despite it's fairly (unintentionally punny) good range it can be punished easily by a smart player. On Zair I was more going off of what Delta said and how it acts more like a projectile and that it doesn't have the punishment risks or the reads that define a Burst Option. Though it is MONSTROUS in spacing gameplay considering how fast it comes out it is fantastic in screwing with the opponent's Burst Range/Options.

Granted despite being a Samus main, I do not claim to be a top player with her. Anything I have said has potential to be wrong.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Samus' fair is actually a hard move to punish without a projectile, and if you delay it (start the move at the apex of your short hop), you'll land right before the third hit comes out, and the move will auto cancel, allowing for a jab, dtilt, sh nair, etc. It's just Samus is kinda slow and her floatyness means her short hops take longer, meaning longer start up for her fair to actually be useful.

 

[Sarix]

You're most likely I probably just thought it was easier to punish because I often go against a Zero Suit main who restricts my air game enough as is. Even though she is slow and 3rd floatiest I find a lot of people underestimate her air speed which is pretty good for transitioning into attacks. Overall I don't think her Burst Options are bad or terribly unsafe but I don't think they're amazing either, you just have to be smart about using them since she is a high effort zoning character which kinda leaves her in an average spot at most in my opinion for a Burst Spacing game.

 

[Conviction]

Oh word, the move happened. I'm happy and scared at the same time LOL

 

[Inle~Orichas]

What is the minimum start up time/disjointed range can something have for it to be considered a burst option?

(Example: Against what characters is Dash->SHFair(Retreating or not) a burst option for Marth?)

 

[Delta-cod]

There is no real distinct time you'd need for something to be a burst option.

I consider a Burst Option to have two major components: Speed and Range.

The idea is to cover as much space (range of your attack, including possible movement to get into position), with as much speed as possible, so your opponent actually can't (Realistically) react to it.

I wouldn't really consider Dash > SH Fair a good Burst Option because simply by dashing you're already putting someone on the defensive because they can see you dash towards them. It's spacing dependent, however, and the closer you are to someone, the faster you can SH Fair because you don't need to dash as far (or at all). Still, I don't think it has good enough speed and range to be a good choice.

 

[Conviction]

So potential of staying safe while closing space, we should try to figure out ways.

So what I've gotten so far.

• Dash
• Walking
• Jumps (SH/FH)
• An approaching aerial that Auto Cancels

I guess the trick is to learn when to use those 4 and how effective they are to how your opponent is playing.

 

[Sharky]

analyzing how your opponent reacts to each method is a good start

 

[Inle~Orichas]

There is no real distinct time you'd need for something to be a burst option.

I consider a Burst Option to have two major components: Speed and Range.

The idea is to cover as much space (range of your attack, including possible movement to get into position), with as much speed as possible, so your opponent actually can't (Realistically) react to it.

I wouldn't really consider Dash > SH Fair a good Burst Option because simply by dashing you're already putting someone on the defensive because they can see you dash towards them. It's spacing dependent, however, and the closer you are to someone, the faster you can SH Fair because you don't need to dash as far (or at all). Still, I don't think it has good enough speed and range to be a good choice.

I'm not sure we're on the same page here. (We are talking about Marth's heavily disjointed, 4[or 5, for max range i believe] frame hitting, fairly good ranged aerial right?)

If you have taken this into account, then are you suggesting the flaw is in the dash animation locking Marth into a limited range of options, giving the opponent a good idea of what Marth must do?

Wasn't the idea behind the burst options as being a single option for a given character, who inevitably possesses multiple? If the opponent is put on the defensive from my dash, (I would assume shielding on reaction to a dash) wouldn't that be a perfect setup for the dash grab, which I am still capable of doing in lieu of the expected SHFair?

 

[Sharky]

frames on dash>sh>fair:

dashing is probably at least 8ish frames or so by itself

add six jump squat frames for the sh

then another 5 for the fair

that's at least 19 frames, certainly above average reaction time.

 

[Inle~Orichas]

The reason I give that (SHFair) as an example is because the very act of retreating said SHFair allows for a near nonpunishable poke from when the aerial comes out. But remaining safe in case of failure isn't what this is about though, is it?

It's more about the range at which you can assail your opponent's before he can react.

In that case, how does Dash->Dancing Blade (Over B, hits on frame 4, so coupled with your approximation for dash delay, ~12 frames) measure up to the Range/Speed criteria for which burst options are weighed compared to his instant Dash attack (Frame 13) or Dash Grab (7+8ish=>15)?

 

[Orion*]

if your f-tilt got read then you did it wrong.

like. that doesn't even make sense because you could apply said statement to anything an infinite amount of times making everything read ever wrong.

seriously >_>

 

[Delta-cod]

I'm not sure we're on the same page here. (We are talking about Marth's heavily disjointed, 4[or 5, for max range i believe] frame hitting, fairly good ranged aerial right?)

If you have taken this into account, then are you suggesting the flaw is in the dash animation locking Marth into a limited range of options, giving the opponent a good idea of what Marth must do?

Wasn't the idea behind the burst options as being a single option for a given character, who inevitably possesses multiple? If the opponent is put on the defensive from my dash, (I would assume shielding on reaction to a dash) wouldn't that be a perfect setup for the dash grab, which I am still capable of doing in lieu of the expected SHFair?

Sharky explained it already, but you must take into account movement speed as well. It will always depend on spacing from the opponent, but, at least for me, whenever I see a character dash towards me, I begin to think defensively. Adding a jump and then an aerial onto this only gives someone more time to react.

Comparing our approximation to, say, Yoshi's dash grab, which is instantly performed has a grab box on frame 12, a dashing SH Fair is a bit slow. That, and the defense against it, a shield, is faster than the defense against a grab, since spotdodges have startup.

Naturally, the whole idea is to use the threat of a burst option to bait your opponent into certain options. If you find that your opponent shields when you run in because of SH Fair, then you should definitely start grabbing them. However, the options still need to be quick. I'm not an expert on Marth's frame data/range, however, but I'd imagine that Dashing > SH Fair doesn't have enough of a range advantage (if any) over dashing > Dancing Blade to make up for the loss in speed.

The reason I give that (SHFair) as an example is because the very act of retreating said SHFair allows for a near nonpunishable poke from when the aerial comes out. But remaining safe in case of failure isn't what this is about though, is it?

Correct. Usually when you make the decision to use a Burst Option, you're committing yourself to that read or approach. Ideally the move has good range (or your character is very fast) and your move has a short amount of startup (taking into account dashes and jumps as startup).

It's more about the range at which you can assail your opponent's before he can react.

Correct.

In that case, how does Dash->Dancing Blade (Over B, hits on frame 4, so coupled with your approximation for dash delay, ~12 frames) measure up to the Range/Speed criteria for which burst options are weighed compared to his instant Dash attack (Frame 13) or Dash Grab (7+8ish=>15)?

Again, I'm not an expert on Marth's entire character design, but I'd say Dancing Blade is good because it's fast and has decent range (afaik). Dash Attack may have more range and is only one frame slower, meaning it's also a good option, but the reward isn't as great (I believe). It definitely is useful, though. I know Pierce uses Dash Attack to knock me out of my zone because it sends me a good deal away, even at low percents. Thus, it's good for Stage Control.

Dash Grab doesn't have such amazing range, so it requires a bit closer spacing than the other two. This causes you to need to space closer to your opponent, thus changing available options to both you and him. This causes a shift in things players need to be aware of, and it sort of increases the pressure on both sides because it becomes even harder to react at closer distances. If you're spacing Dash Grab according to your longer ranged moves, you need to commit to closing the space when you dash in, which takes longer. However, since the other two options get beat defensively by shield, this would be a viable mixup.

 

[Conviction]

like. that doesn't even make sense because you could apply said statement to anything an infinite amount of times making everything read ever wrong.

seriously >_>

This.

The reason I give that (SHFair) as an example is because the very act of retreating said SHFair allows for a near nonpunishable poke from when the aerial comes out. But remaining safe in case of failure isn't what this is about though, is it?

Okay as Fox main and used to having Marth practice from Kadaj, P-3, and Hero. I can tell you that Fair might be a good burst zone optioin but it can be just as bad. If you whiff it...well I can Fair you back, and Fair isn't that fast for Fox. So apply that to other characters.

Be aware of your pros of cons.

It's more about the range at which you can assail your opponent's before he can react.

Yes.

In that case, how does Dash->Dancing Blade (Over B, hits on frame 4, so coupled with your approximation for dash delay, ~12 frames) measure up to the Range/Speed criteria for which burst options are weighed compared to his instant Dash attack (Frame 13) or Dash Grab (7+8ish=>15)?

Eh, DB seems soooo...risky. I think you're better of with walking and using dtilt or Nair and Fair.

analyzing how your opponent reacts to each method is a good start

Yep.

 

[theunabletable]

This is a really good concept, I'd been thinking about this stuff especially, what can and can't be blocked on reaction, and stuff back around Genesis 2.

AC actually has something good to say about it, that takes the concept a little further:

"I think that the most important tools are those which the opponent cannot do something about on reaction, or can only react to if he is expecting them (which is better, in my opinion). If your opponent can only react to something by expecting or baiting it, he is more likely to do so (expecting or baiting something). This causes mental commitment, or tunnel vision, in which he's momentarily unaware of your other options (since he is waiting specifically for something)."

 

[Conviction]

Oh wow, that is a really good quote.

 

[theunabletable]

Yeah it's really good haha. It's a take on mixups that I've never heard elaborated on like that anywhere before lol

One thing to add about "burst range" (which is a great name for it, btw, and I'm sorry if someone's already brought this up) is that... well like it's very useful to stay outside of their burst range, and in yours if possible, but you also have to mix in your expectations with it. Like people don't just stand still, they move back and forth and ****, and taking your own reaction time into account, a pre-emptive (or just something they happened to do) walk backwards can really counter your burst range, if you're like really tipping it or something, because you're still like a 1/4th or 1/5th of a second behind what they're doing (and 2/4ths to 2/5ths of a second behind what they've already committed to with their own reaction time).

It's not just important to keep them right inside your burst range, but to keep the furthest reasonable distance they can move away from you faster than your reaction time in check.

Like you don't wanna just be in range to attack where their feet are now with your burst range (sometimes you do, gotta make that judgment call lol), sometimes you really need to take into account the furthest their feet COULD be from your burst range within the next 1/4th to 1/5th of a second.

This is a really good topic, though. Piquing my interest in this game again :3

And another thing that's sort of related to burst range, in that you really need to know your burst range to take advantage of it, and it's related to reaction time and **** but it's more about baiting than anything. Make your punishes more closely based on having your hitbox inside their hurtbox right at the time the thing you've baited ends.

Like, for instance, if you're baiting MK's SH fair, and wanna punish afterwards with a dash attack, don't make the visual cue you're using, don't attempt to perform your punish after you see his sword go away. Maybe it's common sense, but make the visual cue you use to punish the witnessing of his sword actually being like out in the open; your reaction time simply isn't fast enough to do anything that would cause you to get hit by the sword. Dash the MOMENT you see he's gonna whiff with a fair, the moment you see his sword out (or earlier if possible), his sword goes away quick enough that no matter how hard you try, you could never react in time to run into his sword, the hitbox'll already be gone by the time your reaction time permits your dash. You already know how long it lasts, you don't have to wait until seeing when it ends to actually punish lol. You don't risk anything from doing this to any of it that would've whiffed, and you gain several frames of extra punishment room, taking into account your actions just happening sooner.

Apply this in as many places as you can, and you'll find, if you hadn't already done this before, anyways, that there are many more things you're personally able to punish, even with your reaction time. It's why TKD's upsmashes come out so fast when he baits an MK's fair, he starts his dash upsmash like 15 frames after (or w/e his reaction time is), so that the upsmash itself is already started by the time the fair ends. The sooner your visual cue can possibly be, in effect, the more frames/time that you simply have to punish.

Speedrunning strats work really well for baiting and punishing c:

And sorry for being mostly offtopic in these last few paragraphs, I just felt that it's vaguely related enough, and is discussed so little, that I might as well put it out there c:

 

[~ Gheb ~]

A group of people will cover this subject in greater detail but I'm not sure how much I'm allowed to talk about it. In either case, this is a subject that will surely be talked about a lot in the close future.

 

[Conviction]

It's a project or something? Lol

 

[Sharky]

like. that doesn't even make sense because you could apply said statement to anything an infinite amount of times making everything read ever wrong.

seriously >_>

If you get read, you made a mistake, plain and simple. Everyone makes mistakes, it's whether they're inconsequential or major that matters. I stand by my statement.

 

[Conviction]

But this thread doesn't need arguments over small useless stuff.

 

[teluoborg]

Woah, just stumbled upon that thread, it's very interesting and also true but that "true spacing" thing you're talking about is called zoning.

And why we all suck at zoning is because it's like ten thousands times more complex than in any other fighter. We have too many options :/

 

[Conviction]

That's why this important to understand how to limit options, no?

 

[Orion*]

If you get read, you made a mistake, plain and simple. Everyone makes mistakes, it's whether they're inconsequential or major that matters. I stand by my statement.

Making mistakes, and making decisions are two entirely different things.
There are situations in this game that you can and will be forced into that are essentially 50/50s (or 60/40s or 70/30s whatever) which essentially FORCE you to guess what your opponent is going to do. Unless at your pinnacle of play everybody has literally frame 1 reaction time (which if you argue is ******** because you said everybody makes mistakes LMAO).

It has nothing to do with making a play mistake or an error necessarily in play as far as a human reaction goes, but purely based on your intuition, reading and ability to analyze. Past a certain point you can call these ratio based rock paper scissors unreliable or whatever, but this seems pretty untrue otherwise the top players wouldnt consistently end up... well on top most of the time in these situations.

In short it's not always about you making a mistake, but your opponent just being good enough to hit you.

 

[deepseadiva]

This is a cool thread, I was visualizing this exact thing the other day for Peach. "Burst range" just sounds like good spacing, lol. This is why Peach's jab is so good - she owns that space.

 

[Sinister Slush]

The fact you drew that is pretty amazing.

 

[Sharky]

jab range is just boxing/cqc, not the same thing