Dash Grab Spacing and Why We Suck at Brawl

[Flayl]

This is a cool thread, I was visualizing this exact thing the other day for Peach. "Burst range" just sounds like good spacing, lol. This is why Peach's jab is so good - she owns that space.

This is really good but it's missing dash attack

 

[~ Gheb ~]

By my personal definition of terms Meno's picture [which is very good and should be done for more characters] shows most of Peach's "zones" ... the "burst zone" is the one that covers the character's hurtbox the most "safely". In Peach's case that zone is a line that forms an irregular circle around Peach with fair [front], ftilt [upper-front], utilt [upper] and bair [back].

Controlling the "burst zone" is what I call "spacing" ... "good spacing" means good control over that burst zone to me [although good control over the zones within the burst zone is still important].

 

[-LzR-]

So Marth is a good example of an amazing burst range? That's pretty much what the char is all about, right?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

 

[#HBC | Joker]

lol, jiggz

her space is so small

 

[-LzR-]

I would include dashattack for Puff, it's like her fastest burst option that actually reaches more than like 2 pixels.

 

[deepseadiva]

>__>

So, I went ahead and compiled a much more complete view of Peach's control zone. The last one was a doodle, this one was measured to scale and should be close to exact. Note: jab 2, Toad, Parasol, dair, and dash grab are omitted. Peach Bomber reaches as far as a standing turnip throw.

Also note that for aerials, jump has 5 frames of start-up, with Peach being airborne on frame 6. So, while nair hits on frame 3, all together with jump (5+3), it's 8 frames. Bair is frame 11. Uair frame 13. Fair frame 21.

Burst boxing or whatever is when these zones begin to overlap. Peach does this through her frame 8 turnip throws, but she does better within the scope of her ftilt, where she has several frame 6 options: grab, dsmash, and ftilt. Her only guaranteed burst area is her 2 frame jab zone, where she beats almost every attack in the game.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

So Marth is a good example of an amazing burst range? That's pretty much what the char is all about, right?

Marth's burst range isn't "amazing", just like the character isn't. It's "over aveage", just like the character is.

 

[-LzR-]

Why isn't it amazing? If you are in Marths zone he has damn great options with little lag, a lot of power and range. Though all can beat by just simply shielding but you get the point...

 

[EthereaL]

Marth is one of those characters that in theory is great, but in practice is only above average.

So, you put "burst range" into the spacing category, Gheb? I have always believed that, if anything, it's more of a zoning concept than a spacing one.


Edit: I know I'm talking about something semi-semantic, but I was curious as to why you did (most players have a different view on what zoning / spacing are, after all).

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Why isn't it amazing? If you are in Marths zone he has damn great options with little lag, a lot of power and range. Though all can beat by just simply shielding but you get the point...

The size of his burst zone is good but not very good compared to like Snake, Falco, Diddy, Olimar, MK, Fox, Pikachu ...
The number of options he has withing that zone is good but not very good compared to MK, Pikachu, Falco, Diddy, ...
The power of options he has within that zone is decent but not good or very good compared to Snake, Olimar, Fox, Wario ... and a lot of others
The flexibility of his zone is good but not very good compared to like MK, space animals, Wario, Diddy Kong, Pikachu, ...

He's good in every aspect a burst zone could have ... but there are at least 5 character who are better in each of them. It's a powerful burst zone but not top-tier.

So, you put "burst range" into the spacing category, Gheb? I have always believed that, if anything, it's more of a zoning concept than a spacing one.

Edit: I know I'm talking about something semi-semantic, but I was curious as to why you did (most players have a different view on what zoning / spacing are, after all).

If I had to define a difference between spacing and zoning I'd say it's this: Zoning means controlling a zone [burst zoning means controlling the burst zone], whereas spacing means the interactions of two characters' burst zones.
[That contradicts what I said earlier but I don't mind. I think this is the better definition]

 

[EthereaL]

I would repeat my earlier views, but you can just refer to my older post.

What do you consider "burst zone" to mean?

 

[Kewkky]

Looks like playing proper footsies to me. I dunno, there's far too much terminology thrown around these days, I come into "Competitive Smash Discussion" and there's a new thread here or there with some new terminology...

I'm pretty sure some of us did just that before this thread, we just didn't have a name for it because it still looked like some sort of spacing to us. Still, props to getting it all down into an informative post.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

What do you consider "burst zone" to mean?

Here you go:

... the "burst zone" is the one that covers the character's hurtbox the most "safely"

Very vague explanation I guess but idk how to explain it without having to type a novel or use vids to make it clear.

I'm pretty sure some of us did just that before this thread, we just didn't have a name for it because it still looked like some sort of spacing to us.

The minority of players understand this concept or know how to properly apply it. Pretty much every video of not top-level play proves this.

 

[Big-Cat]

Looks like playing proper footsies to me. I dunno, there's far too much terminology thrown around these days, I come into "Competitive Smash Discussion" and there's a new thread here or there with some new terminology...

I'm pretty sure some of us did just that before this thread, we just didn't have a name for it because it still looked like some sort of spacing to us. Still, props to getting it all down into an informative post.

And then there's how the term is explained, sometimes, in a way that's too long and/or is made more complicated than it needs to be.

The OP is a good read and a concise way to explain footsies.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

Can't believe I held off for years, to actually read through that. I usualy somewhat held off to reading through advice like these, thinking they were somewhat trivial, and that theory could only do so much. However, I have been looking through some earlier pointers, as well as Delta-cod old matches...and seeing how he pretty much applied the concept.

I still have to admit that I do feel if even the mildest confusion regarding the concept. Like, how would approaching take place? Or is one to pretty much always just force an approach, than create one? I think the concept could expand beyond just Dash Grab, as DJEL opens up even more possibilities (namely, in the air as well).

PS: yeah I'm pretty much beating a dead horse...but it's also worth noting I'm getting back into it, and I notice I had so much to improve on...and I'm somewhat finally doing it. Call it a dream.

 

[Delta-cod]

Can't believe I held off for years, to actually read through that. I usualy somewhat held off to reading through advice like these, thinking they were somewhat trivial, and that theory could only do so much. However, I have been looking through some earlier pointers, as well as Delta-cod old matches...and seeing how he pretty much applied the concept.

I still have to admit that I do feel if even the mildest confusion regarding the concept. Like, how would approaching take place? Or is one to pretty much always just force an approach, than create one? I think the concept could expand beyond just Dash Grab, as DJEL opens up even more possibilities (namely, in the air as well).

PS: yeah I'm pretty much beating a dead horse...but it's also worth noting I'm getting back into it, and I notice I had so much to improve on...and I'm somewhat finally doing it. Call it a dream.

I'm glad someone is finding some use out of this still. I definitely don't think the concepts described here are limited to any singular smash game (or fighting game, even), but I also don't think it's particularly mind-blowing stuff, just an explicit reminder of what the neutral game should(?) look like. The sheer amount of empty walking or dashing should change based off the existence of safe on shield moves/strings, I think, since it becomes a lot more reasonable to try out an approach since they don't come at a cost.

To answer your questions: Approaching kind of happens in multiple ways. You can "approach" when you find you've forced your opponent to retreat and thus to take up space. You can "approach" to close the distance so your opponent can't safely throw projectiles at you. You can also approach by attacking, trying to hit your opponent and gain immediate, tangible advantage (open up combos, deal damage, KO your opponent).

Whether or not it's better to force an approach or do the one approaching really depends on the character and even then, individual playstyles may differ. I much prefer to force approaches, but part of forcing approaches is also capitalizing on the moments you get to, in Yoshi's case, utilize your Burst Range and Dash Grab the opponent who's gotten too close. Other characters may excel more in closing distances and utilizing their huge Burst Ranges to force opponents into making mistakes because they're scared, and then capitalizing on openings.

The concept very definitely expands beyond Dash Grab, I just use it as, what I thought (and still do) of as Yoshi's classical example. DJEL is a bit slower, but kind of expands the time/speed component of the Burst Range because it mixes up well with aerials/people's natural inclination to think they can't be grabbed from the air.

 

[Luigisama]

I'm glad someone is finding some use out of this still. I definitely don't think the concepts described here are limited to any singular smash game (or fighting game, even), but I also don't think it's particularly mind-blowing stuff, just an explicit reminder of what the neutral game should(?) look like. The sheer amount of empty walking or dashing should change based off the existence of safe on shield moves/strings, I think, since it becomes a lot more reasonable to try out an approach since they don't come at a cost.

To answer your questions: Approaching kind of happens in multiple ways. You can "approach" when you find you've forced your opponent to retreat and thus to take up space. You can "approach" to close the distance so your opponent can't safely throw projectiles at you. You can also approach by attacking, trying to hit your opponent and gain immediate, tangible advantage (open up combos, deal damage, KO your opponent).

Whether or not it's better to force an approach or do the one approaching really depends on the character and even then, individual playstyles may differ. I much prefer to force approaches, but part of forcing approaches is also capitalizing on the moments you get to, in Yoshi's case, utilize your Burst Range and Dash Grab the opponent who's gotten too close. Other characters may excel more in closing distances and utilizing their huge Burst Ranges to force opponents into making mistakes because they're scared, and then capitalizing on openings.

The concept very definitely expands beyond Dash Grab, I just use it as, what I thought (and still do) of as Yoshi's classical example. DJEL is a bit slower, but kind of expands the time/speed component of the Burst Range because it mixes up well with aerials/people's natural inclination to think they can't be grabbed from the air.

Yo bloshi join the brawl bois discord.

https://discord.gg/Aez6yCD

 

[Deleted member 189823]

I'm kind of surprised you would answer- let alone see this, Delta. I admire your dedication, after all these years. It was put together nicely.

While it may not seem like rocket science, this stuff wouldn't just come across my mind. Even after having a few years under my belt, baiting whiffs while staying out of range is still a fairly new concept for me. I'm still trying to make better sense on your idea of the interaction between characters in this situation. Melee somewhat simplifies it, I guess (ironically?).

Yo bloshi join the brawl bois discord.

https://discord.gg/XmTncaB

I join.

 

[Luigisama]

He'll be missed. for and for timing out . I saw it all. A true warrior.