Corner game

[forward]

Just wondering if people think about this like I do. I know good players are aware of it, but, lesser players are always weaker in this area.

The concept is that when you are cornered you don't really have room to move but you can still defend yourself. If when you are cornered are attacked the attacker generally has to move in close to do so, as they move in is your chance to escape the corner. They can bait your escape, of course, and it creates very interesting mindgames.

 

[JesiahTEG]

Yeah, like if someone has Fox in the corner, a lot of Foxes will jump forwards and then their opponent will back off cuz they want to try and grab them when they land, but then the Fox will double jump backwards back into the corner, which is now not really a corner since their opponent is so far back. But, if the opponent predicts it, he can hit fox off with no double jump, which is basically an instant death.

 

[forward]

Depends on the Fox's percent and what aerial moves the other character has. Low % won't knock him back far enough and he will probably grab the ledge again. Sometimes dull side sex kicks can leave him enough time to do a firefox and still be able to mix up the angle.

I think that when you are cornered you have to be very patient. Make your opponent believe that you are going to stand on your ground, and when they try to punish you for that is when you make your move to escape.

I don't know how or why it is though that good players know when the person will attack them in the corner. For me, it feels like a switch goes off in my head that says "he now realizes that I'm going to stay in the corner" and then I make my move. You could also say that I'm just staying a step ahead of them by not doing when they think I will do.

 

[StoneColdBeast]

Jigglypuff doesn't get cornered.


What a broken character.

 

[darkoblivion12]

generally what i think about when i'm stuck in a corner is "what can they do to covers most of my options?" and "how can i counter it in a way they won't predict?". i usually do pretty well getting out of situations like this or turning the situation around.

 

[Violence]

Samus has it tough when she gets cornered. I have a lot of trouble getting out.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

does anyone have worse ledge options than DK for trying to get back on? short air dodge, no air move options really, his roll isn't that fast his edge attack is good below 100% and maybe DK punch but he has one of 2 maybe attacks no pomisoe. also lack of a great WD sucks for him what do you do on the edge as hi besides regrab?

 

[JPOBS]

^^^^

peach

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

unless she has a turpin or recovers orair dances to a baited attack

 

[Wretched]

I just agree with whatever forward says.

 

[forward]

Good man, but it's important to understand why and not just agree blindly.

 

[Brookman]

Samus has it tough when she gets cornered. I have a lot of trouble getting out.

wavedash backwards.

 

[Violence]

You can only wavedash so far when you're cornered!

 

[JesiahTEG]

Depends on the Fox's percent and what aerial moves the other character has. Low % won't knock him back far enough and he will probably grab the ledge again. Sometimes dull side sex kicks can leave him enough time to do a firefox and still be able to mix up the angle.

I think that when you are cornered you have to be very patient. Make your opponent believe that you are going to stand on your ground, and when they try to punish you for that is when you make your move to escape.

I don't know how or why it is though that good players know when the person will attack them in the corner. For me, it feels like a switch goes off in my head that says "he now realizes that I'm going to stay in the corner" and then I make my move. You could also say that I'm just staying a step ahead of them by not doing when they think I will do.

Sean, as always, I admire the way you're constantly playing the game: Your mind vs your opponent's mind, as opposed to, just trying to waveland with invincibility as fast as possible.

Also, this is indeed a very interesting situation, because there's always a distinct tension that you have to deal with playing in this situation. This tension is an invisible factor that affects the player's decisions, and I think this is one of those rare subtleties that separates the top players from the players below them. Also, character choice matters A LOT in these situations.

One of the reasons I've been playing so much sheik is her ability to deal with being cornered. She dominates the ledge, and when anyone tries to play that corner game with her, they are always risking getting gimped, even if they have the advantage and are trying to push it. Sheik always has that chance, she's just so dangerous.

Not to mention, she can Shino stall, and invincible waveland, making it very hard to corner her. Not to mention, if she manuevers her way from the edge and the opponent finds themselves repositioned...Like, ok, here's an example.

Say Sheik is shielding near the ledge, and Fox Ftilts her shield. Sheik decides to WD backwards onto the ledge out of shield, and shino stall. The fox moves forwards in an attempt to bait the Sheik into Fairing from ledge, but he WD's backwards to punish it. Sheik doesn't fall for the bait. She keeps Shino stalling.

Fox does it again, he moves forwards to see what Sheik does, and he WD's back. Sheik continues stalling. Now the Fox has tested the situation twice, and decides to make his move. But Sheik is ready for it.

Fox moves forwards and tries to PC edgehog the ledge in between Sheik's shino stall. Sheik Wavelands from the ledge, and now Fox is on the ledge, and Sheik is in the reverse position. And, Sheik I think is one of, if not the most threatening characters when she "corners" her opponent.

That aspect of Sheik alone is so appealing to me. Spacies have some good options too, Falco with his double lasers, although I don't think they're as well rounded as Sheik in that area, due to their ability to get gimped, making even playing that game risky.

Peach and Falcon I think get ***** in this game, although while cornering people, Peach and Falcon can do very well. Peach's floating near the edge can cover so many options, and if Falcon just dash dances in front of your face, the person who is being cornered has to be an extremely high level player, and have an insane amount of control and confidence to safely get out of that situation, since Falcon's DD can cover so many options.

Now, my main character Marth ***** when cornering people, and I LOVE that...But, he's not terribly well suited to getting out of the corner, or getting off of the ledge. He can do it just as well as many characters, but not well enough to consider this aspect of his game a disadvantage.

He does have counter from ledge, and a long sword to get off the ledge. And, when he's cornered and he's on the stage, people have to keep their distance which I guess in a way makes it harder to pressure Marth, because you can't be in that sword range. However, even though that threatens the opponent, if they're not in the range and Marth throws out an attack, his aerials are so laggy that they will instantly be punished.

So, it's a funny thing to think about. Marth has the advantage of people never wanting to be in a certain range vs. him, but what's funny about it is that, if he actually swings the sword, he gets punished, which is one of the very good and main ways people **** Marth, is juts grabbing him in lag. So, is it really that much of an advantage to have when looking at it? They're scared of that range but they're never in it, so if you do throw out an attack he gets punished.

I guess it comes down to self control and understanding what your opponent is wanting you to do, which I guess you can say about any part of Smash really. But, I still think that Marth could be better in this area, and I wish he was haha.

 

[Wretched]

Good man, but it's important to understand why and not just agree blindly.

I know.
You don't get it forward.
you just don't get it

 

[forward]

Nice analysis, Jesse.

Falcon has a good forward roll, and a good attack oos game with nair and up air being quick.

Peach, I'm not sure. I think floating is good but I'm not positive, either that or dash attack...

Marth, hmm. OOS fair and nair are good to get out of the corner. WD OOS is good. D-tilt works great but loses to shuffles, shuffles lose to fairs though so a 50/50 game is pretty good.

Sheik, yea, probably the best, behind jiggs, when cornered. Her short dash lets run d-smash quickly which is also a buffered CC. F-tilt is possibly the best ground attack in the game. Overall it has great speed, little lag, comboability, range, and duration. You could probably get away with missing it a couple of times to be honest.

And yea, I think that is a general pattern for people. Defend, bait, attack. Defend themselves from the ledge option, bait what they were defending, and if the bait is not taken then they are not thinking about using that option.

 

[MT_]

Very good thread. I'm learning a lot right now. Please keep up the discussion! Are there ever safe ways to attack someone that is cornered while simultaneously covering the escape options? Lasers spaced just outside of their counterattack range maybe?

 

[Druggedfox]

Very good thread. I'm learning a lot right now. Please keep up the discussion! Are there ever safe ways to attack someone that is cornered while simultaneously covering the escape options? Lasers spaced just outside of their counterattack range maybe?

I was about to post something just in general response to forward, but this is a perfect opportunity to answer you as well.

Especially as falco, cornering the opponent, I don't *usually* actually go in for the attack. As forward said at the beginning, you generally have to get close to the opponent, and this gives the cornered player the chance to escape --> bait escape mindgames, etc etc.

This is where using moves that pose a sort of passive-aggressive threat are great in my mind. A great example is auto-canceled bair with falco. It can easily be spaced such that if the opponent tries to move at all, it hits them, but then you can just DI it away to cover an escape towards the middle of the stage. If the cornered opponent tries to bait you into attacking, unless they catch you in the 3 or so frames of landing lag, it'll often get falco a free shine.

I've always felt like this is one of the best ways to approach a situation where you are cornering someone, generally speaking. So, as far as the whole corner game mentality, I really watch for that from both sides; it's what I think makes players like mango so amazing. The sheer number of options covered by such a simple maneuver is ridiculous. Oftentimes I won't really feel like I've out-mindgamed in such situations, but that they simply ran into one of the options they thought was an opening.

If they hold their ground, on the other hand, the entire situation is reset; one must remember, of course, that this is favorable for the person cornering because the original position was advantageous to him in the first place. In this manner, I feel like I consistently end up on top in such situations; the only way I really visualize losing a scenario like that when I'm playing and considering my options, is if my opponent literally perfectly predicts what, where, and when I'm going to do something. Essentially it comes down to: if they do any number of the majority of their options, they lose. In the one case where they perfectly read me, they might get away.

This is definitely an interesting thing to consider, hope the stuff I said was meaningful to MT and maybe Forward... you'll find this interesting?

 

[Kason Birdman]

does anyone have worse ledge options than DK for trying to get back on? short air dodge, no air move options really, his roll isn't that fast his edge attack is good below 100% and maybe DK punch but he has one of 2 maybe attacks no pomisoe. also lack of a great WD sucks for him what do you do on the edge as hi besides regrab?

^^^^

peach

was going to say this. but JPOBS beat me to it. peach is **** off the ledge.

 

[forward]

Yea, that was a good post DF, good to see other people thinking about this.

I was watching some of my vids a couple days ago and I realized how even I was with good opponents. I couldn't predict them every time and they made some good calls to escape the corner on me, but I also did the same. For some reason I think it's easier to escape the corner then it is to hit the person while they are cornered, but, that could be an in general thing in regards to the ease of hitting and evading. Evading is usually easier than landing a hit, that's why more time is spent spacing your character than doing attacks.

Oh yea, Falco's cornering game is sick, especially when they are at high %. Df mentioned the AC bairs which are good, another great one is his f-tilt. At high% the stun is long enough that they can't punish you for it, good range and little lag. It's also easy to mix up. Walk at them, at any point you can f-tilt, if you get too close then WD back and repeat. If they make a move while you are walking you're in a good position to punish, especially if you were expecting it. Falco's high jump makes it easy to hit people from the air even if they DJ.

 

[-ACE-]

I think that when you are cornered you have to be very patient. Make your opponent believe that you are going to stand on your ground, and when they try to punish you for that is when you make your move to escape.

I don't know how or why it is though that good players know when the person will attack them in the corner. For me, it feels like a switch goes off in my head that says "he now realizes that I'm going to stay in the corner" and then I make my move. You could also say that I'm just staying a step ahead of them by not doing when they think I will do.

This is such an important aspect of the game. It's true that better players have developed a sense for when their opponent is fed up with waiting. The first person to make a commitment is usually the most vulnerable, with few exceptions. Great thread forward.

 

[Pi]

it's important to know your options and your opponents options
generally your opponents options should be related to yours
so being in a corner -may- come with more predictable responses from both you and your opponent, due to the lack of options you have (at least in relation to when you are in the middle of the stage)

if you are forced to an edge, you may assume the defensive, and your mindset may be not to get hit off the edge
and your opponent may feel confident that he has you on the defensive, and may get more lax with his move choices (IE, throwing out unsafe moves because he feels you are strictly being defensive)

and while your options are limited, you shouldn't let yourself become stressed or worried, keep your head in the game and look for a means to escape, or even to attack. If your opponent gets too sure of himself and Fsmashes your shield near the edge, punish it. Don't start spamming spot dodges, or jump & dj quickly trying to get away. Play smart and look for an opening.

There's only so much your opponent can do vs. your shield, weak hits can be CC'd, grabs can be spot dodged, laggy moves can be punished, predictions can be evaded

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

I worder if you can scar jump laser and regrab the edge as falco scould be very useful I do something silmar as pichu so they can't hit you when you projectile. I know wall jumps are fun for sheik because bair covers so much range.

 

[Brookman]

You can only wavedash so far when you're cornered!

Take the edge you silly beast.

 

[forward]

One good opening to escape the corner is to walk or run out. This works when the opponent is trying to bait out an attack from you because they give you space. Take the space but do not throw out an attack and you will find yourself back on even ground with them.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Cactuar looooves to abuse this stuff. Standing still in either position is extremely intelligent, and since you aren't devoting attention to moving around/your character, it's much easier to understand/read what your opponent is doing and escape/capitalize on the situation. While I don't do this much with Falco(I think he has better things he can be doing to someone trapped, and he's too slow anyway lol), I find it a very effective strategy with other characters.

I have always been fond of viewing this situation as the advantage for the one with stage control. If I can retreat farther from an approach, cover several options(retreat/approach? mainly) more securely with an approach of my own(unless they retreat to the edge, which is forfeiting all stage control to me, which is even better), and have the space needed to use movement/moves to bait out jumps/approaches then I'd say that's a great advantage. If the object of the game is to force someone offstage and keep them offstage, then it makes sense that you having someone by the edge means you're close to successfully winning the game(only real issue there being a reversal like Marth Dthrow or whatever, but that's only if you mess up your advantage in the first place usually).

Besides this natural stage control pressure where one character has less options/stage to use, there's the added psychological pressure being by the edge brings. Most players are(consciously or sub consciously) aware of their lack of space to work with in that situation, and that doesn't help when you add in the fact that they were most likely pressured into that situation in the first place(whether by decision to camp or because they were forced back through attacks or pressure). Either way, it's natural for players to want to escape this pressure by seeking space rather than moving back and giving up the rest of it, which is why rolls behind someone in the middle are worked for and predicted more than ever these days. Players that know the game well enough fight this instinct and allows themselves to be pressured onto the edge or mix up when they roll/which direction they roll in.

Psychological pressure goes deeper than that too since people don't always approach right away, which gives the trade off of staying unpredictable while giving the opponent time to think. Sometimes the opponent can jump/shield/move backwards out of habit though, and it's better to just react to that.

I'm kind of rambling at this point, but I can come back to that farther part of it later if anyone wants me to. Maybe it's all crazy talk lol.


Anyway, I'll talk about a couple of things I like to abuse by the edge with a few characters now:


*as the one with advantage:

Falco:

-lasers to force shields and then spacing Bairs/tilts
-DD'ing to trick them into losing shield so I could shield stab if I approached and then Dair/Nair approaching(nair covers more retreats though)...usually start the DD'ing as a result of lasers but not always

Fox:

-spacing Bairs
-just DD'ing(into spaced Bairs or an approaching Nair)
-waiting(usually with back to someone to react with a FH/SH Bair depending on the situation)
-FH Nair(stuffs jumping outs people like to use, and fading away covers rolls too....verrry good on spacies but it works well on other characters as well)


Marth:

-SHFF delayed Fair'ing at an overspaced range(to allow reaction time for Utilt/Ftilt stuffs on approaches and to catch someone if they try to jump away since your lag ends quickly), can be mixed in with Dtilt followup for added IASA frames and stuffed ground approaches/run/walks past Marth
-Dtilt to DD(different than Fair'ing because it keeps the opponent from dashing into shield more often since you'll be approaching typically but it also lets you move around quicker than if you commit to all of the air time of Fair'ing)
-Nair as an approach(covers a loooot of ground and defensive options because of it)
-straight grabbing(people get afraid of Marth's sword so just running at them and grabbing and forcing them offstage is actually not as hard as it sounds)


Falcon:


-DD'ing(I don't like just waiting with Falcon since he's usually better off of a DD, but I guess you could always wait and then DD if someone moves?)....leads to grab approach or retreating Nair/Bair or Uair to stuff jumps
-spaced Bairs(aggressively or defensively[especially with FH/DJ aerial manipulation] this is too good)
-approaching Nair(should be used sparingly but it can surprise people and cut off some options), slight approaching Nair to retreating Bair has seen some success when I've used it as well.


I guess I wonder what people think about these ideas haha. I think about this kind of stuff somewhat often so some feedback on how plausible these ideas are would be cool.

 

[Rykard]

a lot of characters have more options if they just take the ledge in this situation than if they tried to make their way back into the center for the stage

for example, ganon and luigi essentially can't be hit from a ledgehopped wave dash because if invincbility frames and good length on the dashes.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

i sort of agree because of invincibility, but IMO grabbing the edge is just another form of a corner trap.

 

[JesiahTEG]

PeePee- I like your Marth stuff. One thing I like to do with Marth that is really good is to wait in front of their shield, and at the earliest sign of movement, as fast as you can react, Fsmash. The only thing that beats this is dodge and roll behind, because if they jump or WD out, they get hit by Fsmash, even if they try and WD back to the ledge if you space it right.

And, if they do dodge or roll for some reason, you prepare to properly DI the hit, and next time in that situation you just wait for it and **** it.

Also PP, with Dtilt to DD...Different types of DD's get different responses from people I've found, and say you Dtilt and do 1 DD back and forth, long strides...They're most likely going to be in their shield still, preparing to do something.

Then, very quickly, you move a little closer and do 1-2 really really tight, fast DD's in front of them. This will nearly always make someone dodge or roll, because of 2 reasons.

1.) They don't want to attack for fear that their attack will not come out fast enough and they'll get grabbed/aerial'd
2.) DD'ing faster and tighter I think has a psychological effect to induce that "fear" feeling in your opponent, or rather maybe that "sense of urgency," which can really cloud someones judgement, even great players.

Another cool thing to do is do an empty shorthop, pretending like you're going to fair...then WD forwards and grab. You have to be careful with the spacing because if you space your jump too close, it's easier for them to grab you when you land on reaction.

But, if you space the empty SH as if you were going to tip with your fair, or right inside of the tip...That range is DEFINITELY outside of every character's grab range, so they can't grab, but at that same range, Marth can waveland that far and grab them.

Rolling behind beats that option, but you can kind of tell based on the player's skill whether or not you need to worry about. Most high level players will not roll behind if Marth is in the air with a Fair, since Marth has enough time to turn around and grab when he lands. They also will not let go of their shield cuz they don't want to risk getting hit, and Marth's sword outranges everything.

Players at a little bit lower level than that may roll, which screws up this option. That's because they THINK you're actually going for the fair and they may not be fully aware that fairing someone's shield and turning around and grabbing is a good strategy. But, their lack of knowledge will work against you in this situation, mainly because this option is not a "covering" options or "baiting" option. It's based on the prediction that they think you will fair, so they don' t want to let go of their shield.

 

[Druggedfox]

PeePee- I like your Marth stuff. One thing I like to do with Marth that is really good is to wait in front of their shield, and at the earliest sign of movement, as fast as you can react, Fsmash. The only thing that beats this is dodge and roll behind, because if they jump or WD out, they get hit by Fsmash, even if they try and WD back to the ledge if you space it right.

And, if they do dodge or roll for some reason, you prepare to properly DI the hit, and next time in that situation you just wait for it and **** it.

That's a really good one, and one of my favorites that I do with marth =D

It's amazing how good reaction can be midmatch, marth can make it look like he predicted the opponent, when it's just a really nice move. Definitely a good point =]

 

[Pi]

**** you marth

also i don't think that would catch my WD OoS unless you were in UB OoS range

 

[KAOSTAR]

I like to teleport to the center or get to the edge and return back to the stage.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

i just roll towards the center until i make it there. eventually even great players will let you slip through, right?

 

[Brookman]

I just turn around and walk my character right off the stage. I'm doomed anyway, right?

 

[Tero.]

Marth is such a beast when cornering his opponent. His options are like unlimited.

 

[KevinM]

I just turn around and walk my character right off the stage. I'm doomed anyway, right?

*hugs Mike for winning everything*

 

[KAOSTAR]

tero. and brookman-do you guys have the same person in your avatar?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

yeah and there is a smasher named after the guy

 

[Wretched]

You silly kao, its from a respectable anime called Death Note.
I always feel like the game is too fast to quantify how to react in certain situations against the edge.

 

[KAOSTAR]

lol ive seen death note too, but I never got into it that much.

saw the live action movies tho lol.