Confirmed Character Discussion (Part 2)

[Red Exodus]

I wonder why Nintendo doesn't have it's own magazine...

 

[Devastlian]

Eh...I don't know. We'll probably see the info sometime before then, like maybe two weeks before the issue comes. But, Nintendo has kept some exclusive info for Nintendo Power as of late so it could very well be in there. You probably wouldn't have to buy it since the top Nintendo blogs'll have the news up pretty quickly like they always do. Also, NP has gotten better especially with it's redesign (whenever that was). I'm actually considering resubscribing.

Nintendo Power is Nintendo's magazine. <.<

 

[Red Exodus]

I thought it was an unoffical magazine, I don't remember ever reading one since they don't sell in stores.

 

[Devastlian]

Yup. Look at the bottom of the page:
http://www.nintendopower.com/home

 

[Red Exodus]

Ooooooh, I guess I heard incorrectly. Well at least I got proof, I'm sure other people would have just flamed me. Thanks for keeping it clean.

 

[Lord_Deathborne]

It's kinda weird that you think Pit is "gay" but believe Soma and Simon need to be in.

Pit gay? C'mon... We ALL know he totally wants to score with Palutena...

Eh...I don't know. We'll probably see the info sometime before then, like maybe two weeks before the issue comes. But, Nintendo has kept some exclusive info for Nintendo Power as of late so it could very well be in there. You probably wouldn't have to buy it since the top Nintendo blogs'll have the news up pretty quickly like they always do. Also, NP has gotten better especially with it's redesign (whenever that was). I'm actually considering resubscribing.

Nintendo Power is Nintendo's magazine. <.<

In Japan, Nintendo Power is a cartridge download service for SNES and GB titles not unlike the VC, except with a back catalog it can only dream of having - which ironically enough is being discontinued as of this month... Sad really...

 

[Rhyme]

Note to self, EpF likes Pit. And has a temper. This makes me smile.

I don't get it.

You know, I might just change my posting habbits. After reading 2 pages of nonsense back and forth, I get the feeling that maybe other users feel this way when Iplsne and I talk. Oh well, can't change the past.

 

[btk Ace]

Woooo. Go the RAGEING POWER OF LINK
and the bomb jump
Link And Mario will be top tier in Brawl

 

[Devastlian]

In Japan, Nintendo Power is a cartridge download service for SNES and GB titles not unlike the VC, except with a back catalog it can only dream of having - which ironically enough is being discontinued as of this month... Sad really...

Ya, I found that out today, too. Guess I could've worded that differently:

Nintendo Power (the magazine) is Nintendo of Amercia's official magazine.

 

[mario-man]

Woooo. Go the RAGEING POWER OF LINK
and the bomb jump
Link And Mario will be top tier in Brawl

Yes!!! Yes!!! "Mario for top tier in Brawl!!" I couldn't care less about Link, but in honor of your great post, "Link for top tier in Brawl!!"

 

[Lord_Deathborne]

Ya, I found that out today, too. Guess I could've worded that differently:

Nintendo Power (the magazine) is Nintendo of Amercia's official magazine.

No, no. I think everyone knows what NP you're referring to anyway. I just thought I'd throw that out - ****, I wish we had something like that over here... SNES and GB were my all-time favorite Nintendo platforms... (the ones I grew up with)

 

[Devastlian]

Ya, that'd be awesome. Definately a ton of games I miss from the SNES days. VC updates too slow. :/

On the subject of tiers...see my sig.

 

[The rAt]

As far as tiers go, I have to be honest; I think classifying characters into them is a waste of time. Why? Because it is 100% subjective. A bunch of people sat down and agreed that if two hypothetical people who were supposedly exactly matched in skill (which is impossible to measure) sat down and had a match the one with character A would win over character B. I take pride in defying that sort of system by owning people with Pikachu, who I usually see on the bottom rung. And by absolutely sucking with some of the top tier characters. Really, I think its all about play style, about the player's strengths and weaknesses and how they match up to the character's. Tiers, to me are an oversimplification.

Rhyme, I wouldn't be too worried. First of all, the reason EpF made me smile was because I've been making a conscious effort to be nicer in my posts. EpF went on a verbal rampage not unlike what I have done in the past, but have resolved to do less. Thus, I smile because I am assured that stupidity will not go unchallenged just because I try and be nicer to people, and that SSWF's rage quoata will not be forced to suffer for my politeness.
Second of all, I'm not going to lie, I didn't read most of your and Ipslne's back-and-forths. Not because I was annoyed, or secretly smiling in contempt (although in retrospect, smiling in contempt is not a bad way to be passive aggressive, yet still maintain a reputation for being nice), but rather, I've had been gone for a month and catching up on who said what seems to be a task incompatable with the level of ADD I happen to be afflicted with.
Third of all, honestly, people don't matter half as much as they think they do. Myself included. Within reason (I can point out a bad example if you like ), sometimes it's just best to say let everyone think what they will. Because they will. So let 'em.

Later all,
Andy

 

[Rhyme]

Andy, you cannot say tiers don't exist, because they do! Some characters do in fact have very clear-cut advantages over other characters, and this is no one's fault but the people who sit in excess of 12 hours in front of a cube and figure out every weakness of every character. For example, Marth is horrible with items and Mewtwo is awesome with them. Shiek can possitively own Falcon with her tilts. IC's can chainthrow DK 0-death and the only thing DK can do is try to not get grabbed. These advantages helped to form the tier list.

But do not allow yourself to be mislead. The tier list says what advantages characters have over eachother. What it does not take into account is the people using those characters. Some people just can't play certain characters, no matter their position on the tier list. I have a friend who's worst character is Fox. That doesn't mean Fox should drop down in the tier list, it means my friend can't L cancel with fastfallers. If you are good with Pikachu than that's the character who best fits your playing style. The tier list exists whether or not you choose to acknowledge that it exists.

Just breaking your balls, nothing personal.

Also, I'm glad that someone else out there took the initiative to remind me of how insignificant I already realized I was. Thankyou!

 

[shadowmm151]

Andy, you cannot say tiers don't exist, because they do! Some characters do in fact have very clear-cut advantages over other characters, and this is no one's fault but the people who sit in excess of 12 hours in front of a cube and figure out every weakness of every character. For example, Marth is horrible with items and Mewtwo is awesome with them. Shiek can possitively own Falcon with her tilts. IC's can chainthrow DK 0-death and the only thing DK can do is try to not get grabbed. These advantages helped to form the tier list.

But do not allow yourself to be mislead. The tier list says what advantages characters have over eachother. What it does not take into account is the people using those characters. Some people just can't play certain characters, no matter their position on the tier list. I have a friend who's worst character is Fox. That doesn't mean Fox should drop down in the tier list, it means my friend can't L cancel with fastfallers. If you are good with Pikachu than that's the character who best fits your playing style. The tier list exists whether or not you choose to acknowledge that it exists.

Just breaking your balls, nothing personal.

Also, I'm glad that someone else out there took the initiative to remind me of how insignificant I already realized I was. Thankyou!

I completely agree! tiers exist to show in general what characters have advantages over others. the key words are IN GENERAL. for example i play with falco, an already high ranked character. only fox, sheik, marth and i believe peach (they keep swapping on the tier list so i'm unsure who's higher right now) are above him. Now while i can combo with falco til the end of time and enjoy his ridiculous offensive abilities, it does not change that he has clear disadvantages from the others. that's recovery. falco falls just as fast as fox (maybe even a little faster) but his recovery can't touch fox's. falco has one of the best offenses but worst defenses. he is easily comboed due to his fast falling ability. the characters above him on the list have an advantage because of his recovery and fast falling. fox can combo him very efficiently and has better recovery. sheik and marth can chain grab him and also have better recovery. peach's middle name is recovery and her dsmash wrecks falco who normally take more than floatier characters. Now does this stop pros like bombsoldier from winning matches and even holding his own against ken? no it doesn't but the tiers do show some GENERAL trend.

 

[Zook]

whats thats supposted 2 mean dude look at you either you have belonged 2 this site for 15 years or you have no life
you have more posts then Pam anderson has screwed guys.
You really dont have room to talk

I've been here over two years.

I have no life.

I regulate at a post rate of 1.97 posts per day.

I believe I do have room to talk. I'm cool.

 

[shadenexus18]

I've been here over two years.

I have no life.

I regulate at a post rate of 1.97 posts per day.

I believe I do have room to talk. I'm cool.

I wouldn't worry about him Zook. He's like totally envious of you bro. He's drinkin that haterade, but I'm sure he'll come around.

 

[LemonManX]

I wish quietmuse would be more quiet, but hey? I might be asking too much, haha.

 

[Brawlmatt202]

As far as tiers go, I have to be honest; I think classifying characters into them is a waste of time. Why? Because it is 100% subjective. A bunch of people sat down and agreed that if two hypothetical people who were supposedly exactly matched in skill (which is impossible to measure) sat down and had a match the one with character A would win over character B. I take pride in defying that sort of system by owning people with Pikachu, who I usually see on the bottom rung. And by absolutely sucking with some of the top tier characters. Really, I think its all about play style, about the player's strengths and weaknesses and how they match up to the character's. Tiers, to me are an oversimplification.

Rhyme, I wouldn't be too worried. First of all, the reason EpF made me smile was because I've been making a conscious effort to be nicer in my posts. EpF went on a verbal rampage not unlike what I have done in the past, but have resolved to do less. Thus, I smile because I am assured that stupidity will not go unchallenged just because I try and be nicer to people, and that SSWF's rage quoata will not be forced to suffer for my politeness.
Second of all, I'm not going to lie, I didn't read most of your and Ipslne's back-and-forths. Not because I was annoyed, or secretly smiling in contempt (although in retrospect, smiling in contempt is not a bad way to be passive aggressive, yet still maintain a reputation for being nice), but rather, I've had been gone for a month and catching up on who said what seems to be a task incompatable with the level of ADD I happen to be afflicted with.
Third of all, honestly, people don't matter half as much as they think they do. Myself included. Within reason (I can point out a bad example if you like ), sometimes it's just best to say let everyone think what they will. Because they will. So let 'em.

Later all,
Andy

...So you're saying tiers don't matter? I agree!

 

[Wrath`]

Andy, you cannot say tiers don't exist, because they do! Some characters do in fact have very clear-cut advantages over other characters, and this is no one's fault but the people who sit in excess of 12 hours in front of a cube and figure out every weakness of every character. For example, Marth is horrible with items and Mewtwo is awesome with them. Shiek can possitively own Falcon with her tilts. IC's can chainthrow DK 0-death and the only thing DK can do is try to not get grabbed. These advantages helped to form the tier list.

But do not allow yourself to be mislead. The tier list says what advantages characters have over eachother. What it does not take into account is the people using those characters. Some people just can't play certain characters, no matter their position on the tier list. I have a friend who's worst character is Fox. That doesn't mean Fox should drop down in the tier list, it means my friend can't L cancel with fastfallers. If you are good with Pikachu than that's the character who best fits your playing style. The tier list exists whether or not you choose to acknowledge that it exists.

Just breaking your balls, nothing personal.

Also, I'm glad that someone else out there took the initiative to remind me of how insignificant I already realized I was. Thankyou!

Finnaly more people who think teirs can be thrown out the windo.

I saw too many people at my school turny(got second,my friend who is a shinespike fiend beat me)trying to use top tier characters and sucking hard.They wernt playing with who they flowed with.




On a second thought,It's wierd i'm good yet i dont shine and wavedash and L cancel.The only somewhat tecnical term i use is shorthop for my arial assalt.So i think i'm one of those good down to earth players.

 

[Rhyme]

Finnaly more people who think teirs can be thrown out the windo.

You're barking up the wrong tree my friend. I'm the one supporting the tier list. Go quote Andy.

So, my guess is, you play a rather unorthodox Fox?

 

[Wrath`]

You're barking up the wrong tree my friend. I'm the one supporting the tier list. Go quote Andy.

So, my guess is, you play a rather unorthodox Fox?

No i play a mean arial assalt with falco,gannon,ness.

You sounded like you were against the teirs.My bad.

 

[urban_shinobi]

that is because you havenot played someone of great technical and mindgame skill. trust me, i havent played anyone on that calibur, and know i'll need alot of practice to come close. i main falcon, and have seen the best falcons play on videos online, as well as read guides on this forum.

and really, tiers do not matter. I still can see why you would do that, it only confuses noobs. I remember the earlier times i started playing, and a friend told me falco was best. and that guy had used falco for a few weeks before me. I tried him, and sucked. I liked CF in the last game, so I picked him up again, and beat the mess out of that person, who was actualy alitle better than me. I won because of (although i did not know at the time) mindgames. Tiers may "" show "" how the char. rank if people were on the same level to some, but to me it's pointless to rank char, because everyone's playing style is different, somewhat ( not totaly) what Rhyme is saying

i'm still cracking up at Brawlmatt's post.

 

[quietmuse]

I've been here over two years.

I have no life.

I regulate at a post rate of 1.97 posts per day.

I believe I do have room to talk. I'm cool.

no, my friend you dont you are a loser and you need a job and a gf so please get out of you moms basement and stop beatin it to starwars

I wouldn't worry about him Zook. He's like totally envious of you bro. He's drinkin that haterade, but I'm sure he'll come around.

no im not drinkin any thing but bawls

and ur friend is a loser

 

[quietmuse]

It's kinda weird that you think Pit is "gay" but believe Soma and Simon need to be in.

dude you cant compare Pit to one of the best games freaking ever. Castlevania and everyone in it Pwn pits FACE

 

[Rhyme]

No i play a mean arial assalt with falco,gannon,ness.

You sounded like you were against the teirs.My bad.

Andy, you cannot say tiers don't exist, because they do!

dot dot dot

The tier list exists whether or not you choose to acknowledge that it exists.

I don't believe myself to be vague, but it is a possibility that I'm to tired to know better. Now The rAt, definately anti-tier. It is mearly a function contingent on one's perception of their environment.

 

[Devastlian]

dude you cant compare Pit to one of the best games freaking ever. Castlevania and everyone in it Pwn pits FACE

I wasn't comparing their games. Simon and Soma are rather effeminate, especially compared to Pit who is obviously a boy.

It is mearly a function contingent on one's perception of their environment.

What she said.

 

[Chibiwaffle]

Yeah I don't think ANY characters are going to be removed. The first 2 Smash Bros. kept every character I just don't think the guys at Nintendo have made more detailed versions of some characters (Lol notice how Kirby is the only one that doesn't go high-def in the trailer)

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Eternal, I think ignorence is spelled "ignorance." Just for future reference.

Well anyway, I don't know why some people don't approve of Pit's outfit. It's perfect, even though a halo above his head would be nice. Other than that, I don't see the problem.

Ooops,thanks for the spell check.=D

 

[The rAt]

Rhyme, I don't think the tier lists don't exist. I know they do. People sat down and made them. What I question is objectivity involved in their construction and their usefulness in a practical sense. You're right that the tier rating is supposed to transcend the person using the character, and that's just my point; it can't. Because as I understand it, the idea is to quantify these advantages. And these advantages, in my observation have been situational. Therefore, any conclusions drawn from those observations would be situational, too. Granted, you are right that some characters have advantages over others. It would be stupid to say that Pichu doesn't have a disadvantage in most situations because of the damage he takes from himself. Read Sensei's sig if you want to know my exact thoughts on the Pikachu/Pichu problem. However, I ask you, current example aside, how many of those advantages can be chalked up to the character itself or the person you watched use that character, the style with which they played that character? I am trying to make the point that making a list of situational advantages of X character over Y character is different from saying in an objective match, X character would win because of those advantages over Y character is moot (which I percieve to be the object of creating a tier list), because there is no objective match, there is no objective advantage, but all of that aside, I haven't met anyone yet who is objective enough about it to make such an assertion.

So, yeah, they exist. Do they tell us anything? Honestly, I don't think so.

I don't mean any of that to cut down your opinion, just to clarify mine.

Chibiwaffle, I'd agree that Kirby didn't seem to be much more detailed as of yet. Also, I'd note that the almighty rAt, may he live forever, (no not me, Pikachu ) seems to have actually gone down in detail from my vantage point. In regards to characters being ommitted, while it's true that no characters were ommitted between the original and Melee, aside from the questionable Luigi, no clones were in the original, whereas now we have six. Not only that, but if the character roster increases for Brawl like it did for Melee, we're looking at quite a hefty character list. If all 25 characters from Melee return, then we are already looking at 30 characters, and that's not even mentioning any unlockables, 29 if you count Zamus and Samus as the same, 32 if you don't and count Sheik (someone correct me if my math is off). Anyhow, my point is, I'm going to disagree with you on this one, because from my vantage point, something's got to give. Not a bad first post, though.

On a side note, does it amuse anyone else that quietmuse thinks he's (he? she?) winning?

Later.
Andy

 

[Red Exodus]

Is the tier list based on which characters are used to win in tournaments? I can't remember what data is used to determine a character's position, I'll go check.

 

[Rhyme]

OK, I understand where you're coming from. Depending on the person playing the character depends on that character's advantage over the other character. It is also unfair to make a list which neglects play style because, in reality, such a match will never exist. I just think that the tier list is a good vantage point for general assertions.

I also understand that there is no sense in debating with the unwavering. You can think what you like, I'll believe what I want, and both of us may then attempt to convert the non-believers to our respective sides.

Also, with regards to the quietmuse saga, I wasn't aware that either side was prominantly victorious.

P.S. I believe your math is off, but then again the number varries depending on what you consider a character. Melee's data records says that there are only 25 playable characters. Assuming ZSS shares a character slot, she doesn't add to the total either. That leaves 25 from Melee plus the 4 new announcees, or 29. Either way you look at it, you could add a maximum of 2 characters to that number, so you are looking at 29, 30, or 31 characters. I was just picking at your number "32" which I believe to be a logical impossibility.

 

[Ipslne]

Alright, no quoting spree for me this time. I've missed way too much, and am not in the mood to go ape**** on this subject.

My two-cents here:

I'm pretty sure the tier list is just a representation of how characters are being developed by players in tournament play. In no way is it a list of "who is the best." It's more of a list of who's been adapting and changing gameplay with a certain character for the better outcome.

For example, the reason Luigi is no longer high tier is because there hasn't been much change in his tournament play recently. He's been being used in the same ways, no new interesting techniques, combos, etc... coming from him.

As far as I'm concerned, the Space Animals are currently top tier because they generally have far more potential for gimps (low% kills) and combos leading to gimps. Same effect as the N64 combo-to-kill, though much more complicated to pull-off.

This is why the tier list is important, and why it is always changing. You can be pro with a low-tier character, but considering the lack of development or development potential (as seen to that point) the character becomes predictable. To counter this you have to add your own mindgames to the character, which sadly aren't considered in the making of the tier list.

 

[the_air_up_there7]

I think all the original characters will comeback like yoshi, DK, zelda, luigi, peach, maybe they are not confirmed but eventually they will come back. I wonder who will be the new ones.

 

[shadenexus18]

no, my friend you dont you are a loser and you need a job and a gf so please get out of you moms basement and stop beatin it to starwars


no im not drinkin any thing but bawls

and ur friend is a loser

He's not my friend, he's more like an...err....acquiantance. Anyway, there's no need to flame bro. Just chill.

Also, I don't understand why you hate Pit so much. He's an archangel, & he looks so revamped. The developers put there heart, soul, & then some to make him come out so tight. I'm so looking forward to a gothic fallen angel Pit as well. If the developers make his outfits like I think there going to make his outfits then he's gonna be a winner in my book.

 

[The_Corax_King]

actually pit isnt an archangel...

is he even an angel, or just a mythical guy with chicken feather wings?

 

[shadenexus18]

I consider him an archangel & he's not a guy with chicken feather wings Corax.

 

[urban_shinobi]

mmmmm.........chicken [/hunger]

i really like how they remade him. you gotta be good t make a real scale like drawing of a character that you;ve never seen in......actual up to par graphics like we ahve today....

also, does kirby have hair?

 

[shadenexus18]

Yeah, Nintendo's really peeked my interest with revamped old school characters. They've got to have peeps with wild imaginations to pull off tight looking retro characters like Pit. I wonder who there going to revamp next?

 

[DarkStevenX]

Hey i was wondering....
I was reading the new GamePro mag earlier and for SSBB it says a Nintendog will be a actual character...kinda hard for me to believe tho...but have any of you guys heard anything about this????