Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[StrangeKitten]

How exactly has the generic fall in place vulnerability change actually changed fighters?

Not one bit, I don't think. Because I'm pretty sure what they meant by that was, getting hit by attacks like Focus and Skewer that send you into a slow knockdown. I watched Beefy Smash Doods video on it and it looks like the characters affected can now act the slightest bit sooner, but it's not enough to make any difference.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

How exactly has the generic fall in place vulnerability change actually changed fighters?

It's about crumple, you know, when getting hit by Focus Attack or Skewer. Apparantly not every character had the same length of the animation so they just standardized it, the fact nobody seemed to notice there was a difference suggests that it doesn't change much, if anything

 

[Lancerech]

Anyone have ideas how Pyra and Mythra fare in certain matchups?

I've been mainly playing Pyra for a while. Surprisingly, I think Pyra is actually pretty good in the Snake matchup. Side B is nice for limiting Snake's options due to popping grenades and controlling space on the ground. It also makes the Min Min matchup tolerable to an extent. I wouldn't claim she wins by any stretch of the imagination, but Side B makes the matchup go from hellish to at least workable, although you'd likely just go Mythra against her instead.

 

[meleebrawler]

It's super early to say much conclusively. But they feel very similar to Lucina or Roy. Though they have the possibility of faring even better than them due to Mythra's excellent speed and Pyra's projectile

I'd just like to mention some of the interesting behaviour on Blazing End; it seems the move is only considered a projectile while it is moving forward, and the moment it stops in place it instead seems to become a stationary, transcendent hitbox. During the travel time it hits rather low, and I've noticed that the shotos Ryu & Ken seem to be able to fly over it with their hurricane kicks. And as a final tip mentioned in the game, there's a Wolf-like melee hitbox at the start.

 

[duxx]

Anyone have ideas how Pyra and Mythra fare in certain matchups?

I went online with villager yesterday, and the matchup was brutal for me. pyra's side b pretty much walled me out completely due to me not being able to get in with lloids, and having my slingshots eaten up wasnt much fun either. In addition to this, my stubby range on things like u tilt, nair, and f tilt made it near impossible to start combos or set up for jab locks

 

[meleebrawler]

I went online with villager yesterday, and the matchup was brutal for me. pyra's side b pretty much walled me out completely due to me not being able to get in with lloids, and having my slingshots eaten up wasnt much fun either. In addition to this, my stubby range on things like u tilt, nair, and f tilt made it near impossible to start combos or set up for jab locks

Speaking of, were you not able to pocket Blazing End at all? Obviously you can't when the move stops being a projectile at it's destination, but what about during it's travel? I could also see this being an exception so as to not leave Pyra completely defenceless for long periods of time...

Also, I'm glad some people are already starting to see the merits of Pyra versus zoners and other defensive play.

 

[Thinkaman]

Blazing End cannot be Pocketed. It can be DDD Inhaled.

I went online with villager yesterday, and the matchup was brutal for me. pyra's side b pretty much walled me out completely due to me not being able to get in with lloids, and having my slingshots eaten up wasnt much fun either. In addition to this, my stubby range on things like u tilt, nair, and f tilt made it near impossible to start combos or set up for jab locks

Come to think of it, Villager/Isabelle do probably hate them. Buzzing around at slingshot range isn't a winning plan, and while most ranged characters have either dominant projectiles to answer Pyra side-b -OR- a reflector, Villager/Isabelle's normally superior "reflector" does not apply. Timber is also of no help, and Lloid trap I'm assuming gets eaten by a number of options for either of them.


Jury is out on Incineroar. He is my favorite person to play against swords, and this held true for Byleth and Sephiroth. He loves that Mythra is about throwing out hitboxes constantly, has weak punish options when he whiffs, and that both have unappealing grabs. But I had trouble maintaining the spacings I like, especailly against Pyra. The punishment for missing something like a neutral-b can be unusually harsh.

Not sure on Mac either--nothing so far seems obviously egregious, but we'll see how easily Mythra can take him on an adventure he doesn't want.

 

[DrCoeloCephalo]

Well that's not what I meant to suggest. I was trying to talk about offline and how Wario was one of the most-repped characters in addition to consistently getting top placements. It's true that it took the devs a long time to respond to that, but they finally have. Others in the thread here have been able to provide the data that backs up Wario being a bit too successful. That's why I feel like having a move that kills at 40 with a multitude of true lead-ins to it was unhealthy for the meta, and only would have gotten worse over time.

The more recent tier lists by pros with Wario not in the top tiers anymore suggests otherwise and they responded in a horrible way to boot as said 40% kill setup wouldn't even be as much of an issue if they removed the stupid crutch mechanic of rage and reduced the knockback, and charge time to make it more of a pseudo Smash attack combo akin to Project M since the Smash attacks he has in Ultimate currently suck so hard on top of the setup still requiring a ton of skill and game sense to properly make use of with less convenient UI than characters like Villager and Robin that for whatever reason get the privilege of more convenient UI for their unique abilities.

It's all the more infuriating with the character having lost more and more good options since Brawl no differently from characters people continue to pity like Diddy Kong and Meta Knight.

Plus, if UAir setups only get better optimized as time goes on, the 40% death is still going to be there anyway.

I kinda think you're overselling Mac's guaranteed combo and underselling Wario's Waft a bit. While everything you said about Mac's KOmbo Punch is true, there are additional factors which mollify its severity--the most obvious being that it can be extinguished from damage received. Couple this w/ the character's fairly straightforward gameplan (e.g. no projectiles, flaccid air game, "what's edgeguarding?" -Little Mac, 2014), and it becomes a bit easier to anticipate when and how a Mac player will choose to engage when that KO meter is full.

Now that's not to say it's a terrible move or anything: any attack that can turn the tide of battle w/ a single button press will make even the most seasoned Smasher just a little bit more cautious... but, I suppose what I'm ultimately (heh... hehheh... ha... HAHAHAHA) getting at is that, between the 2 moves, I am immeasurably more worried when Wario's colon reaches max capacity than Little Mac's KO Meter ;p

Buff KO Punch to not be lost at the drop of a feather and the character is more justified and less terrible and if the game had edgehogging instead of autosnapping letting so many recoveries come back for free safely, edggeguarding would be less of an issue. No reason for both characters to be more frustrating and unenjoyable than they already are in a game where so many characters are already frustrating and unenjoyable.

 

[SKX31]

Anyone have ideas how Pyra and Mythra fare in certain matchups?

Tried out with my Cloud. Of course, I'm just an Elite Smash player at the 9,1 million GSP range (I face those at the top, 9,2 million, pretty often), so what I can say will not say much at all - it's WiFi at the end of the day. Still:

* While Cloud will likely struggle with hitting Mythra due to her speed and frame data, Mythra can't really afford to take a lot of hits herself from Cloud because Cloud can convert one hit into follow ups pretty solidly. Mythra will likely juggle Cloud pretty well, but she might also struggle with escaping Cloud's comboes even if they occur more rarely. I can also see Mythra having some issues with Cloud's Back Air, Up B and F-Tilt, which can in some situations wall her out a bit. Neither do a lot vs. shields, so it'll become a OOS game, and Mythra might have an advantage there.

* Pyra might struggle a bit more. While she has a lot of range - something Cloud kinda struggles with, she's possibly vurnerable to Cloud's whiff-punishing. If Pyra throws out Blazing End, Cloud can choose to hang back and charge Limit. Prominence Revolt might be one thing Pyra has going for her, since it's a seemingly great OOS option - but it's somewhat difficult to see what else she can threaten Cloud with other than perhaps Flame Nova and F-Tilt. Also, she doesn't weigh a lot more than Mythra. Meaning that she'll die only a bit later from Cloud's stuff than Myhtra - negating one of Cloud's weaknesses (struggles with killing heavyweights).

* Mythra and Pyra will likely gimp Cloud super well - Mythra via Back Air / Photon Edge in some edge cases, Pyra via Blazing End and Flame Nova, but Cloud can also counteract Mythra's / Pyra's recoveries consistently. Back-Air, Limit Cross Slash, as well as 2 frame D-Tilt / Dash Attack can work vs. them.

I'd say the Cloud vs. Pyra / Mythra matchup looks even, although it could swing either way really.

 

[Lancerech]

Also, I'm glad some people are already starting to see the merits of Pyra versus zoners and other defensive play.

Speaking of that, I found Pyra difficult to use against Hero. He just finds a lot of opportunities to get Bounce up and he just walls you out easily with superior mobility and Zap spells. I'd definitely leave the heavy lifting to Mythra for that matchup.

 

[Gunla]

Blazing End cannot be Pocketed. It can be DDD Inhaled.

It can be pocketed during the initial throw, but not while it's active - same rules for Dedede. When it is pocketed, Pyra will just automatically regain her sword.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

Not one bit, I don't think. Because I'm pretty sure what they meant by that was, getting hit by attacks like Focus and Skewer that send you into a slow knockdown. I watched Beefy Smash Doods video on it and it looks like the characters affected can now act the slightest bit sooner, but it's not enough to make any difference.

Of course. I need to test it out a bit more, but as a main I’ve noticed Wonder Wing come out a bit faster when challenged during free fall. Probably is nothing.

 

[StrangeKitten]

The more recent tier lists by pros with Wario not in the top tiers anymore

???

ESAM tier list with Wario at #3

Dabuz tier list with Wario at #1

MVD Tier list with Wario at #2

MockRock tier list with Wario in unordered top tier

MkLeo tier list with Wario at #5

Raito tier list with Wario at #3

Tweek tier list with Wario at #10

 

[The_Bookworm]

Mew2King has released a pretty well made video focused on Pyra specifically. (Btw, Mew2King isn't the one who makes the thumbnails. )

He will release the Mythra video soon, but he believes the duo together might potentially be the best character in the game.


-------------------

On a side note, there has already been a game-breaking glitch discovered with .
When you complete Century Smash with the duo, switch to the other character right before the end cards show up. Spam switching might work the best. The end result is that you will gain full control the duo, but the camera will be stuck and the blastzones will be deactivated.
You will essentially softlock the game.

Not competitive relevant since it involves Century Smash, but I find it funny that almost every DLC character so far has had a game-breaking glitch at some point.
He softlocked the game if we won a game in Classic mode with his final smash.
His final smash had the potential to KO the opponent twice and potentially create zombie characters with no stocks.
He had a Freeze Glitch with Nana by using Buster Wolf.
She had the ability to be stuck in T-Pose on command.
His blocks sometimes caused opponents to fall through the stage (+ much more).
Shadow Flare in conjunction with Pokemon Trainer broke every single visual animation in the game. This might still be in the game.


---------------------


Finally, there are actually two more shadow changes in the game not mentioned in this thread.

Fully-charged Waft received a fairly significant buff to its super armor.
Pre-patch Wario Waft had its super armor from frames 5-10. Duration of 6 frames.
Post 11.0.0 Wario Waft now has its super armor from frames 4-13. Duration of 10 frames.
Not only the armor starts a frame earlier, but its overall duration is much higher than it is before. A nice buff to help compensate for the significant nerf to its frame data.

As we all know, Header pretty much got all of its landing lag removed, now only having the universal 4 frames of landing lag.
However, this change also fixes a glitch where Header is no longer briefly disabled after using Header in the air, charging neutral B or down B while still airborne, and canceling the move as Wii Fit lands.


Not a shadow change, but there is something I like to mention.
While forward smash, forward air, and forward throw pretty much got its 3.1.0 recoil nerf reverted, Agility is actually special.
Agility actually now deals less recoil damage than it did prior to 3.1.0.
Pre-3.1.0: -- 0.6% (first zip); 1.4% (second zip); 2% (total)
3.1.0: ------- 0.9% (first zip); 1.4% (second zip); 2.3% (total)
11.1.0: ------ 0.5% (first zip); 1% (second zip); 1.5% (total)
Considering that this is Quick Attack that has no hitbox, yet it deals recoil damage to Pichu and is easier to 2 frame, this is nice change.

 

[Thinkaman]

It can be pocketed during the initial throw, but not while it's active - same rules for Dedede. When it is pocketed, Pyra will just automatically regain her sword.

Huh, thanks!

 

[Rizen]

Anyone have ideas how Pyra and Mythra fare in certain matchups?

This is theory based on playing as the Ras and against them as lv9 CPUs, which are much worse than people.
First I have to say Mythra's advantage state is crazy; she's so fast and has Lucina like aerials in range making her one of the hardest characters to land against. Someone earlier said she has the best advantage state in the game.
Wolf's blaster is extremely useful but this is bad for Wolf for the same reason Chrom is hard for him. Wolf is usually good vs swordies due to his great airspeed but Mythra is faster. She basically can create a circle around her representing hitboxes that is extremely hard to get past. Wolf's usually good at midrange but Pyra and Mythra's side Bs both control this area extremely well. It's very hard for wolf to get in.
probably does the best of all my characters because he has projectiles that Mythra has to get around. Up close she out ranges and out buttons him hard. I can see this as even or slightly in Ra's favor.
loses. His projectiles and mobility aren't enough to keep Mythra out and she out buttons him. Seriously, who thought giving Myth amazing mobility and frame data with a sword was a good idea? Like I said with Wolf, she basically is this fast moving circle of pain. She destroys Link in disadvantage.
get bopped around like beach balls; there's not much else to say. Although K.Rool does have much better tools than the other 2.
has the same problem as Link; Mythra is faster in both mobility and frame data. Byleth by nature can explode her advantage with strong kill power off a good read.

I talk a lot about Mythra because she's by far the hardest one to deal with but Pyra's not bad at all. SideB is excellent for controlling midrange and hard to punish. She's also been described as Ganon with a sword and kills much sooner than she should. Using Pyra to seal stocks takes away the closest thing to a weakness Mythra has.
People who doubt this character's busted are in denial.

 

[BlazGreen]

I know there's still two characters to go but I must say that I'm impressed how much better on average the Fighter Pass 2 characters are viability wise compared compared to the first. You can make a case for all of them being at least high tier while the first pass only had one great character (), one good character () and three somewhat underwhelming characters. When offline comes back the meta is gonna look quite a bit different than it did a year ago and I'm excited to see it.

 

[duxx]

I know there's still two characters to go but I must say that I'm impressed how much better on average the Fighter Pass 2 characters are viability wise compared compared to the first. You can make a case for all of them being at least high tier while the first pass only had one great character (), one good character () and three somewhat underwhelming characters. When offline comes back the meta is gonna look quite a bit different than it did a year ago and I'm excited to see it.

I'd argue that 's a good character as well

 

[StrangeKitten]

I'd argue that 's a good character as well

He's a rough one to place. His neutral is somewhat rough because he doesn't have great mobility and the frame data on his normals is bad, but his projectiles are really good and he can get a lot of great stuff from his Menu. And he severely lacks representation, so we have little data to go off of. Hope to see Salem's Hero when offline comes back, because he's the only one I've seen push the character and demonstrate his strengths to their fullest.

 

[Lancerech]

I wonder myself if Pyra is actually that good for killing. Maybe it's just lack of experience talking, but it feels like a lot of her moves are less powerful than you'd expect. Up B is heavily susceptible to DI and you can live hits from it at pretty high percents around 120-130% even on lighter characters. Ftilt and most aerials won't kill around 150% center stage without DI. Admittedly, her ledge trapping seems to be pretty good and that's where she'll get most kills, but even with no DI, lighter characters can survive her Ftilt at 115% at ledge roll range. Her jab is also surprisingly strong and seems to have just a small amount less knockback than Ftilt.

 

[meleebrawler]

I wonder myself if Pyra is actually that good for killing. Maybe it's just lack of experience talking, but it feels like a lot of her moves are less powerful than you'd expect. Up B is heavily susceptible to DI and you can live hits from it at pretty high percents around 120-130% even on lighter characters. Ftilt and most aerials won't kill around 150% center stage without DI. Admittedly, her ledge trapping seems to be pretty good and that's where she'll get most kills, but even with no DI, lighter characters can survive her Ftilt at 115% at ledge roll range. Her jab is also surprisingly strong and seems to have just a small amount less knockback than Ftilt.

Prominence Revolt feels stronger than that to me, though at times I wonder if the edge of the pillar is less powerful. Oftentimes you will have the assistance of platforms.

But when Mythra is as good as she is at racking damage and putting opponents in bad spots, does Pyra really need her safer moves to kill much earlier than they already do? I myself get a lot of mileage from Flame Nova for early kills, a lot of times the pressure Mythra exerts leads to opponents taking options that Pyra is just the right position to eat with a long-lasting spin. In that regard it is similar to Doctor Tornado.

There is a point in your concerns, though; as has been mentioned with Pokemon Trainer, one should not just arbitrarily change based on damage percents, it's limiting, makes you more predictable and you could be giving up on a winning gameplan. Opponents like Fox or Sonic make a strong case for playing as Mythra as much as possible to minimize vulnerability; in the former's case he also happens to be light enough that Mythra can reasonably kill him with her power moves.

 

[DrCoeloCephalo]

???

ESAM tier list with Wario at #3

Dabuz tier list with Wario at #1

MVD Tier list with Wario at #2

MockRock tier list with Wario in unordered top tier

MkLeo tier list with Wario at #5

Raito tier list with Wario at #3

Tweek tier list with Wario at #10

Seems I've been out of the loop pretty long and only went by Tweek (The one that actually plays the character) putting him in #10 so that's my own fault for being ignorant towards a game I haven't had any reason to play and still don't.

Doesn't change it still demanded actual skill and game sense to to make use of or any of my other points.

 

[Thinkaman]

I've been testing various interactions, perhaps to atone for my hasty error on Pocket.

Specifically I was looking for "things that interact (beat) either/both Mythra and Pyra side-b." We've talked about how Photon Rush can be a free 20% for simple callouts, but what characters have neutral tools (or potential neutral tools) that throw a monkey wrench into that?

Obviously, any projectile--especially meaty--stuffs Photon Edge, any reflector beats Blazing End, and there's always shield or jumping for both, when available. I'm talking strictly about other, unique options that might be overlooked.

's low-grade armor on tilts is enough to tank a single Photon Edge swipe and punch Mythra in the face, should the two collide within those 3 frames. Not very important.
bombs can interrupt Photon Edge; most important for Snake.
can side-b through both Photon Edge and Blazing End. This isn't something they would be doing in the neutral, but it's an alternative option to shield or down-b I suppose. (And a lethal one, so worth noting)
Flare Blitz should similarly destroy either move, though I haven't tested it yet.
now we're getting to the good stuff:

Straight Lunge appears really good against Mythra, probably the best matchup in the game for this usually situational-at-best move. Mythra's entire deal revolves around low damage combo starters that Lunge's weak f1 armor covers. Of Mythra's entire moveset, almost nothing breaks Lunge! Uniquely, Photon Edge has such a long animation that it allows Mac to continue building armor such that he can armor the entire thing! (And then delete Mythra on release) The key is that unlike other characters who rely on lots of low-damage moves, Mythra doesn't have an attractive grab.

Lunge is also more usable than usual against Pyra, as it can tank her up-b, up-smash (grounded scoop hit), and is generally an answer against Blazing End.

is also a star. Kart armor beats both Photon Edge and Blazing End cleanly, a big win for him. What's more, Mechas on the field interrupt Photon Edge, which is great. Two moves that Jr. wants to be doing all the time anyway are super applicable.

has it rough. Other projectiles beat Photon Edge, but the dog is not so lucky. Can is not made for this at all, nor Gunmen--you can make them work, but it's not great. Disc is the saving grace, but it's not a consistent win and you have to be ahead of them for any hope of winning the interaction.

crown armor shines--sure, any projectile normally wins here, but K Rool can be late and still win.

wins more than you might think. Only the final hits of either side-b can destroy trap--Photon Edge will otherwise get interrupted! With Pyra, at the range to destroy the trap, Isabelle will be unable to Pocket the sword; she'll have to call it out and jump forward past the safety of her mine with Pocket as Pyra goes for it. And of course, Fishing Rod beats Photon Edge cleanly, just like Wonderwing and Buster Wolf and Octoslash and...

Revenge works against Photon Edge, what did you expect. I've used Cross Chop armor to beat both Photon Edge and Burning End in actual play, but that's more of a hard read than these other things being discussed.

Ptooie will typically fall on Mythra during Photon Edge, as it does to many aggressive approaches. Nothing unique, but relevant.

Wonderwing behaves as duh, obviously a lethal callout to anything.

deserves special mention as someone whose normal moves break the rules of mid-range to begin with.

 

[Rizen]

Mewtwoking posted the frame data in his Pyra video.

Pyra/Mythra Frame Data for YouTube

docs.google.com

I want to show you a comparison, not just between the two but with Lucina who was (inaccurately) ranked the #1 character in that reddit tier list a few pages back. I have a lot of experience so I could eyeball these things earlier but this gives me reference to make my point.
Pyra/Mythra/Lucina
Weight 98/92/90
Jab1 3/2/5
Ftilt 12/8/8
Utilt 11/7/6
Dtilt 9/5/7
DA 17/9/13
Dsmash 12/8/6
USmash 15/9/13
Fsmash 20/14/10
Grab 7/6/6
Nair 11/8/6
Fair 11/8/6
Bair 16/10/7
Dair 17/13/9
Uair 13/9/5

Take a look at that frame 2 jab- same as Fox! Usually sword characters are balanced by having f4-6 jabs but not in this case. It's not low damage either; rapid jab can deal about 12%. Being able to out button opponents is huge. That's why you see Fox chain into it so much.
I should aslo point out that the Ra's Dtilt combos where Lucina's doesn't.

Mythra's frame data is on par with Lucina's. She has better mobility than Lucina, better weight and can transform into Pyra for kills. There really isn't any competitive reason to play Corrin, Chrom, Lucina or other true sword characters when Ra is just better.

One way sword characters are balanced is by having their attacks poke out or swing on the Z axis so they only have thin hitboxes. Sephiroth is a great example of this. But not the Ras. All their sword attacks have wide arcs. I've used this as an example of why Lucina is so good; she can hit anywhere in a large circle around her. The Ras can too.

Lets talk about swap mechanics. Why are Shulk's arts so good when they all add downsides? It's because smash has neutral, advantage and disadvantage states. Is the opponent offstage or in disadvantage in general? Swap to smash art and it has huge reward with no real downside. Mythra being able to swap to Pyra is like Shulk's smash art; great for kills and advantage. But wait, Pyra was thrown into disadvantage! Swap to Mythra with better mobility and recovery options. Just like PT the whole is greater than the sum of is parts. Pyra adds a ton to Mythra's game. Pyra's kill power is overtuned and has been described by multiple people as Ganon with a sword. But she also has access to Lucina like frame data. It's crazy.

Mythra's neutral is great for the same reason ZSS is so good, amazing mobility. Mobility is huge in smash; just look at how Mario ranks compared to Dr.M. It also helps her advantage and disadvantage. With 2 recovery burst options and fast air speed, Mythra's recovery is hardly a weakness although if they get swatted offstage they're probably dead. Mythra's mobility:
Run Speed - 2.41
The 5th fastest run speed. In-between Sheik and Fox.

Initial Dash - 2.45
The fastest initial dash in the game.

Air Speed - 1.22
The 11th fastest air speed. In-between Greninja and Captain Falcon.

Air Acceleration - 0.01/0.06/0.07 (Base/Additional/Max)
The 48th-53rd fastest air acceleration. Tied with Mewtwo, Incineroar, Cloud, Ridley, and Banjo.

Fall Speed - 1.87
The 7th fastest fall speed. In-between Pichu and Captain Falcon.


Not only do the Ras have excellent CQC but they both have great mid range options. Like Emblem Lord said, Myth's sideB is an extremely braindead and good punish for a huge area. Pyra's sword throw is an excellent projectile that stops other projectiles, lingers yet is hard to punish because she can move around! Speaking of moving during specials, she can move with up and neutral B too making them harder to punish. The Ras in general don't give you very big punish windows.

As promised this is my in depth post as to why they are busted. M2K also said they probably are the best character in the game. Expect to see them everywhere as players like MKLeo and Cosmos pick them up. To be clear I am NOT saying to nerf them until after they dominate tournaments. Counter play should always come before nerfs. But I'd be shocked if the old nerf hammer doesn't come down on them in time.

 

[Lancerech]

Prominence Revolt feels stronger than that to me, though at times I wonder if the edge of the pillar is less powerful. Oftentimes you will have the assistance of platforms.

But when Mythra is as good as she is at racking damage and putting opponents in bad spots, does Pyra really need her safer moves to kill much earlier than they already do? I myself get a lot of mileage from Flame Nova for early kills, a lot of times the pressure Mythra exerts leads to opponents taking options that Pyra is just the right position to eat with a long-lasting spin. In that regard it is similar to Doctor Tornado.

There is a point in your concerns, though; as has been mentioned with Pokemon Trainer, one should not just arbitrarily change based on damage percents, it's limiting, makes you more predictable and you could be giving up on a winning gameplan. Opponents like Fox or Sonic make a strong case for playing as Mythra as much as possible to minimize vulnerability; in the former's case he also happens to be light enough that Mythra can reasonably kill him with her power moves.

I'm not saying that she should be stronger than that or anything considering her range and how safe certain moves. It's just a general trend I noticed playing as or against her. Neutral B is really good for intercepting certain recoveries and is good enough in those cases. But there's a lot of matchups where it feels like either I can't kill with her at 150%, or I'm surviving against her at around 150% or higher.

 

[DJ3DS]

I've been testing various interactions, perhaps to atone for my hasty error on Pocket.

Specifically I was looking for "things that interact (beat) either/both Mythra and Pyra side-b." We've talked about how Photon Rush can be a free 20% for simple callouts, but what characters have neutral tools (or potential neutral tools) that throw a monkey wrench into that?

Obviously, any projectile--especially meaty--stuffs Photon Edge, any reflector beats Blazing End, and there's always shield or jumping for both, when available. I'm talking strictly about other, unique options that might be overlooked.

You haven't touched on it, but ROB's gyro doesn't stop Photon Edge. It sadly gets carried with the move and thrown elsewhere, which makes it somewhat dangerous in this matchup as Mythra has a powerful callout for it..

On a brighter note (or not, depending on your perspective) Arm Rotor is capable of beating Photon Edge as well as Blazing Edge. It's not a real neutral tool, but if it is in any way consistent (which I haven't tested; this information is gathered from friendlies) then it has edgeguarding applications for sure.

 

[DrCoeloCephalo]

One of the stupidest things I've read in regards to the Wario Waft nerf was someone saying "Wario players have to actually try now."

It angers me beyond belief because the character wasn't easy even before the nerf.

UAir is so frustratingly hard to fall with and even hit meanwhile I've seen people whom play Byleth of all characters complain about that UAir.
Plus with DAir being as unsafe and weak as it is, TRYING to land it when you had rage and an opponent at a high percent was equally trying meanwhile I've seen players of Greninja or Simon complain about it. I've already gone into detail about the frustratingly bad Smash attacks and jab which are the most basic options most characters get to make use of in some way.

I guess what really angers me most of all is that I'm this upset about a game I don't even play as much as I used to and has done nothing to affect my mood being way happier until recently with this but it just comes off to me as the same situation as King K. Rool where only unskilled players whined loud and hard enough to get what they wanted.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Seems I've been out of the loop pretty long and only went by Tweek (The one that actually plays the character) putting him in #10 so that's my own fault for being ignorant towards a game I haven't had any reason to play and still don't.

Doesn't change it still demanded actual skill and game sense to to make use of or any of my other points.

Tier List Ultimate 9.1
Feel free to debate about it, just my opinion after all pic.twitter.com/ibn3hNLXd6

— SLY | Glutonny (@GlutonnySSB) November 6, 2020

The best Wario placed him at 4th, not to mention this just feels like you're ranting, especially as you compared Waft to KO Punch ignoring that by Tweek's estimate, the one you looked it, you felt the 10th best character in the game's best move being nerfed meant the worst character in the game also needed to be nerfed, especially as Waft doesn't get severly nerfed when used in the air

i made a tier list, admittedly i didn't put much effort into it but i think it's my general thoughts

maybe? lol pic.twitter.com/MPD7Q9gjky

— LG Tweek (@TweekSsb) November 30, 2020

Also, regardless of how these two will play out, I guarantee that the next balance patch will buff Pyra's up B for consistency stuff

 

[DJ3DS]

I guess what really angers me most of all is that I'm this upset about a game I don't even play as much as I used to and has done nothing to affect my mood being way happier until recently with this but it just comes off to me as the same situation as King K. Rool where only unskilled players whined loud and hard enough to get what they wanted.

I'm not really sure how K Rool is an appropriate parallel. He has subsequently been buffed to the point I'd argue that he's better than at release yet still doesn't have results remotely comparable to what Wario consistently gets.

We've also yet to see how Wario performs after this. I'd imagine you'll still see Glutonny getting consistent results with him even if there is an exodus otherwise.

 

[Minix0]

This is theory based on playing as the Ras and against them as lv9 CPUs, which are much worse than people.
First I have to say Mythra's advantage state is crazy; she's so fast and has Lucina like aerials in range making her one of the hardest characters to land against. Someone earlier said she has the best advantage state in the game.
Wolf's blaster is extremely useful but this is bad for Wolf for the same reason Chrom is hard for him. Wolf is usually good vs swordies due to his great airspeed but Mythra is faster. She basically can create a circle around her representing hitboxes that is extremely hard to get past. Wolf's usually good at midrange but Pyra and Mythra's side Bs both control this area extremely well. It's very hard for wolf to get in.
probably does the best of all my characters because he has projectiles that Mythra has to get around. Up close she out ranges and out buttons him hard. I can see this as even or slightly in Ra's favor.
loses. His projectiles and mobility aren't enough to keep Mythra out and she out buttons him. Seriously, who thought giving Myth amazing mobility and frame data with a sword was a good idea? Like I said with Wolf, she basically is this fast moving circle of pain. She destroys Link in disadvantage.
get bopped around like beach balls; there's not much else to say. Although K.Rool does have much better tools than the other 2.
has the same problem as Link; Mythra is faster in both mobility and frame data. Byleth by nature can explode her advantage with strong kill power off a good read.

I talk a lot about Mythra because she's by far the hardest one to deal with but Pyra's not bad at all. SideB is excellent for controlling midrange and hard to punish. She's also been described as Ganon with a sword and kills much sooner than she should. Using Pyra to seal stocks takes away the closest thing to a weakness Mythra has.
People who doubt this character's busted are in denial.

Ridley seems to do just fine against them in my experience. Especially against Pyra.

Mythra's combos are pretty annoying I guess, but idk she doesn't really kill well.

 

[Nah]

One of the stupidest things I've read in regards to the Wario Waft nerf was someone saying "Wario players have to actually try now."

I guess what really angers me most of all is that I'm this upset about a game I don't even play as much as I used to and has done nothing to affect my mood being way happier until recently with this but it just comes off to me as the same situation as King K. Rool where only unskilled players whined loud and hard enough to get what they wanted.

I'm pretty sure that Waft has been complained about at all levels of play, so I don't think that this is a case of like....whiny noobs cried until Daddy Sakurai gave them what they wanted. And personally, I don't think that moves like Waft and KO Punch and all that should even exist.

Though I do agree that people shouldn't be saying that "Wario players have to try now". Literally nobody in the current roster is so completely braindead that people get 100% carried.

 

[blackghost]

If mythra had the same design principles and reasoning as banjo you'd only be able ot switch three times per life and foresight wouldn't exist.
characters in season 2 have not had balance at the forefront of their design they have made these characters accurate to source material and will attempt to fix problems later, in other words, this is smash 4 DLC design choices.

does anyone think any characters do well vs them? I have nothing really to support this but i think both sepiroth and joker will be fine vs Ras for different reasons.

sephiroth is an elite edge guarder and when offline returns in wide play i think he will take the biggest leap forward in general. he will require precision but th epayoff vs Ra will be great IMO.

joker is still such a solid character through and through I have a hard time seeing him get blown out by anyone. and with proper projectile play he can slow the game down while mythra has to be on pyra to have any projectile.

 

[meleebrawler]

If mythra had the same design principles and reasoning as banjo you'd only be able ot switch three times per life and foresight wouldn't exist.
characters in season 2 have not had balance at the forefront of their design they have made these characters accurate to source material and will attempt to fix problems later, in other words, this is smash 4 DLC design choices.

does anyone think any characters do well vs them? I have nothing really to support this but i think both sepiroth and joker will be fine vs Ras for different reasons.

sephiroth is an elite edge guarder and when offline returns in wide play i think he will take the biggest leap forward in general. he will require precision but th epayoff vs Ra will be great IMO.

joker is still such a solid character through and through I have a hard time seeing him get blown out by anyone. and with proper projectile play he can slow the game down while mythra has to be on pyra to have any projectile.

If Sephiroth was accurate to source material he wouldn't need to tag a target with a beam to get Shadow Flare orbs circling, and would be super-heavy to simulate his ridiculous boss endurance. Also Steve being great isn't a sure thing as of yet.

 

[Thinkaman]

Min Min probably does well. Other swords probably have a promising time, with favorable trades and better off-stage safety. I wouldn't be surprised if Monado Armor ruins Mythra's strings.


People who can frequently pressure people hotizontally and gimp them will find their talents disproportionately rewarded here. If Puff didn't hate swords, she'd have a field day. But Puff or not, I have been getting way more % of my KOs as gimps than in most matchups, as if I'm fighting Ganondorf--and I don't think it's entirely day 1 recovery mistakes, there's not a ton of ways to bake this particular cake.

 

[duxx]

I think pika will do well against them. t jolt zoning, pika edgeguarding them, them not being to edgeguard him super well, combo potential (including bair chains/nair loops)

 

[Thinkaman]

You haven't touched on it, but ROB's gyro doesn't stop Photon Edge. It sadly gets carried with the move and thrown elsewhere, which makes it somewhat dangerous in this matchup as Mythra has a powerful callout for it...

Yeah, I just assumed gyro, header ball, and Gordos lose to these things like they would to any hitbox. Cause for concern for all three characters, but ROB in particular is probably not impacted much.

 

[ARISTOS]

Min Min probably does well. Other swords probably have a promising time, with favorable trades and better off-stage safety. I wouldn't be surprised if Monado Armor ruins Mythra's strings.


People who can frequently pressure people hotizontally and gimp them will find their talents disproportionately rewarded here. If Puff didn't hate swords, she'd have a field day. But Puff or not, I have been getting way more % of my KOs as gimps than in most matchups, as if I'm fighting Ganondorf--and I don't think it's entirely day 1 recovery mistakes, there's not a ton of ways to bake this particular cake.

Funny, I think it's actually the opposite - I feel often other sword characters do not deal well with Mythra's overall speed and juggling potential, often having to retreat to the corner due to a lack of good protective lower hitboxes. I've found it easy to get in on swords and force options out of them in disadvantage by mixing between empty hops, uair and rising fair.

The main limitation in neutral is a lack of a good pressuring hitbox (though this is similar against the entire cast). Fair coming from under Mythra means you often have to fade back to remain safe, and the lack of damage on it just makes that scenario worse. So far, getting around that has required a lot of cross up grabs, which opponents respond to by not biting to anything lol.
______________________________________________________________________________

I don't know if it's been mentioned but Pythra have longer air dodges, rolls and spot dodges than most characters, and cannot spot dodge cancel

 

[Space thing]

Funny, I think it's actually the opposite - I feel often other sword characters do not deal well with Mythra's overall speed and juggling potential, often having to retreat to the corner due to a lack of good protective lower hitboxes. I've found it easy to get in on swords and force options out of them in disadvantage by mixing between empty hops, uair and rising fair.

The main limitation in neutral is a lack of a good pressuring hitbox (though this is similar against the entire cast). Fair coming from under Mythra means you often have to fade back to remain safe, and the lack of damage on it just makes that scenario worse. So far, getting around that has required a lot of cross up grabs, which opponents respond to by not biting to anything lol.
______________________________________________________________________________

I don't know if it's been mentioned but Pythra have longer air dodges, rolls and spot dodges than most characters, and cannot spot dodge cancel

She can spot dodge cancel. I think gimr just miscounted. Her regular spot dodge is around 31 frames, and she can cancel into an attack after around frame 25. She does have worse dodge data though.

It basically feels like they put foresight as at the start up and basically put normal dodge data afterwards. This basically means her 2 frame jab on landings and in tight situations as well as just jump should be her fastest anti grab options over spot dodge because you can grab her during foresight frames, similar to bayo bat within. I'm interested in how that will affect counter play against her, but considering her mobility and overall frame data, it probably won't be a huge issue.

 

[meleebrawler]

I've been testing various interactions, perhaps to atone for my hasty error on Pocket.

Specifically I was looking for "things that interact (beat) either/both Mythra and Pyra side-b." We've talked about how Photon Rush can be a free 20% for simple callouts, but what characters have neutral tools (or potential neutral tools) that throw a monkey wrench into that?

Obviously, any projectile--especially meaty--stuffs Photon Edge, any reflector beats Blazing End, and there's always shield or jumping for both, when available. I'm talking strictly about other, unique options that might be overlooked.

's low-grade armor on tilts is enough to tank a single Photon Edge swipe and punch Mythra in the face, should the two collide within those 3 frames. Not very important.
bombs can interrupt Photon Edge; most important for Snake.
can side-b through both Photon Edge and Blazing End. This isn't something they would be doing in the neutral, but it's an alternative option to shield or down-b I suppose. (And a lethal one, so worth noting)
Flare Blitz should similarly destroy either move, though I haven't tested it yet.
now we're getting to the good stuff:

Straight Lunge appears really good against Mythra, probably the best matchup in the game for this usually situational-at-best move. Mythra's entire deal revolves around low damage combo starters that Lunge's weak f1 armor covers. Of Mythra's entire moveset, almost nothing breaks Lunge! Uniquely, Photon Edge has such a long animation that it allows Mac to continue building armor such that he can armor the entire thing! (And then delete Mythra on release) The key is that unlike other characters who rely on lots of low-damage moves, Mythra doesn't have an attractive grab.

Lunge is also more usable than usual against Pyra, as it can tank her up-b, up-smash (grounded scoop hit), and is generally an answer against Blazing End.

is also a star. Kart armor beats both Photon Edge and Blazing End cleanly, a big win for him. What's more, Mechas on the field interrupt Photon Edge, which is great. Two moves that Jr. wants to be doing all the time anyway are super applicable.

has it rough. Other projectiles beat Photon Edge, but the dog is not so lucky. Can is not made for this at all, nor Gunmen--you can make them work, but it's not great. Disc is the saving grace, but it's not a consistent win and you have to be ahead of them for any hope of winning the interaction.

crown armor shines--sure, any projectile normally wins here, but K Rool can be late and still win.

wins more than you might think. Only the final hits of either side-b can destroy trap--Photon Edge will otherwise get interrupted! With Pyra, at the range to destroy the trap, Isabelle will be unable to Pocket the sword; she'll have to call it out and jump forward past the safety of her mine with Pocket as Pyra goes for it. And of course, Fishing Rod beats Photon Edge cleanly, just like Wonderwing and Buster Wolf and Octoslash and...

Revenge works against Photon Edge, what did you expect. I've used Cross Chop armor to beat both Photon Edge and Burning End in actual play, but that's more of a hard read than these other things being discussed.

Ptooie will typically fall on Mythra during Photon Edge, as it does to many aggressive approaches. Nothing unique, but relevant.

Wonderwing behaves as duh, obviously a lethal callout to anything.

deserves special mention as someone whose normal moves break the rules of mid-range to begin with.

Wouldn't Little Mac prefer to Jolt Haymaker over Blazing End instead? I already mentioned that it only hits low moving forward.

Funny, I think it's actually the opposite - I feel often other sword characters do not deal well with Mythra's overall speed and juggling potential, often having to retreat to the corner due to a lack of good protective lower hitboxes. I've found it easy to get in on swords and force options out of them in disadvantage by mixing between empty hops, uair and rising fair.

The main limitation in neutral is a lack of a good pressuring hitbox (though this is similar against the entire cast). Fair coming from under Mythra means you often have to fade back to remain safe, and the lack of damage on it just makes that scenario worse. So far, getting around that has required a lot of cross up grabs, which opponents respond to by not biting to anything lol.
______________________________________________________________________________

I don't know if it's been mentioned but Pythra have longer air dodges, rolls and spot dodges than most characters, and cannot spot dodge cancel

If you've got your opponent scared, shielding and waiting for Mythra to make a move, why not swap to Pyra with the momentum-carrying swap to use something like Flame Nova and threaten that?

 

[StrangeKitten]

Seems I've been out of the loop pretty long and only went by Tweek (The one that actually plays the character) putting him in #10 so that's my own fault for being ignorant towards a game I haven't had any reason to play and still don't.

Doesn't change it still demanded actual skill and game sense to to make use of or any of my other points.

So wait, you barely even play Ultimate? I'm now wondering how much Wario you've played, and if you've ever had to play around the threat of Waft, because having to do so was not fun. My apologies if you know this already, but let's take a deep look at Ultimate Wario specifically:

Character weaknesses:
- Lack of range means a lot of his moves can get beaten out by disjoints. This is not the worst weakness in the world, as many characters who lack range such as Pikachu, Mario, Squirtle, and Fox consistently saw great success in the offline meta. It is, however, still a noteworthy weakness that leaves him with a somewhat lacking and awkward-feeling neutral that is pretty unfriendly to newcomers or people who seldom practice the character. He requires time and loyalty, moreso than a lot of other characters.

- He also has his share of struggles against projectiles. While he boasts great airspeed, and Chomp now eats most projectiles unlike in past games, neither are the most solid of answers, imo.

- He has a handful of bad moves, which I wouldn't be against improving. Namely, jab (frame 8 for a jab is bad, particularly for one with such low range), forward smash (the hitbox doesn't match the animation and is deceptively smaller. While strong, this attack is also pretty slow), and down smash (worst down smash in the game imo). That being said, there's nothing forcing you to use these moves, so you can just, y'know, not use them. I'll point out here that I think Wario has a pretty good up smash. It's like an ever-so-slightly-worse Mario up smash, and that ain't bad when Mario has a great up smash!

- Not going to happen often once a player is comfortable with him, but Corkscrew doesn't go that high and goes nowhere horizontally. I'll get into why his recovery is great when I go over strengths, but will there be times when you've expended your Bike and can't make it back.

-While his air speed is great, his run speed is on the slower side, hindering his grounded mobility.

Character strengths:
- His excellent air speed gives him great aerial mobility, in Ultimate, the game in which aerials are very strong. Additionally, it makes him one of, if not the best camper in the game because the less he interacts, the more he builds up Waft. This forces his opponent to approach.

- Small and heavy. He's not much bigger than Pichu, with a weight of 107! A great trait to have. The superheavies start at only 9 units heavier than that! And this ain't Smash 4. This is Ultimate where rage is toned down and blast zones are generous (and of course I'm referring to legal stages such as PS2 and Battlefield). Even if Wario loses neutral, he ain't dying any time soon. Especially when you factor in...

- Great recovery! Air speed is probably the most important thing when it comes to recovering in Ultimate. It's the reason why I can miss recoveries I feel like I should have made if I'm playing as Incineroar or Ganondorf, and make recoveries I feel like I shouldn't have if I'm playing as Joker or Sonic. Not only does Wario have great air speed that allows for a lot of drifts and successful air dodges, he has Corkscrew on top of it, and then Bike on top of all that! Bike gains Wario loads of distance in the air and an additonal double jump when he jumps off of it in the air! This is probably one of the best recoveries in the game, now that I think more about it.

- One of the strongest combo games! His routes are kinda difficult and require practice and fastfalls, but he can crap out so much damage once you get it all down! Better combo game than Pika and Joker imo, who themselves have superb combo game. Being able to put on a swift 70+ means Wario is able to make comebacks very easily. Up tilt was kind of a dummy good move, lingering a lot and comboing into itself, up airs, and even Corkscrew. I might not be against giving it some of its former glory back in the future, but for now I'd like to see what happens with its current nerfed version.

- Not the strongest kill options when not factoring in Waft, but he still has a lot of them! Down tilt to dash attack confirm, raw strong hit of dash attack, f-tilt which can two-frame, Chomp at ledge, Bike Throw, fair and especially dair offstage which are very good at intercepting recoveries. And a strong bair that autocancels.

- Loads of safety on his moves when they're used right. Nair and fair can be thrown out in retreating fashion to avoid oos punishes, and up air is -2! Bair also kinda bounces him back, making it very safe as well.

- Let's not overlook that Chomp is a command grab, which means he's among a handful of characters to be able to grab you in the air! This is especially useful for platforms, where his opponent is kinda forced to shield because platforms are frustratingly sticky in Ultimate, and sharking with up tilts/up smashes/ up airs is strong. I had also forgotten that it heals Wario a bit when he eats an opponent or projectile. Won't matter much but I'm sure there are situations in which this can get you out of kill%. He's one of very few characters capable of healing in the entire game!

Going over all of this again, plus all the research I did on the character for this post, plus my in-depth knowledge of Ultimate... man, it really is easy to see why Wario was top tier. And he still has all these strengths, so I'd say there's a good chance he may still be. DrCoeloCephalo , I hope this all helps you realize what a strong character Wario is in Ultimate's meta. I'm sorry you don't love that he has lost strong tools he had in Brawl, but quite frankly, he's a menace in his own right in Ultimate.

I'd like to end this by saying that, after going over Wario's weaknesses and strengths, do I think he should have Waft? It may surprise you, but my answer is actually...

I think he has enough weaknesses that it's fair that he gets to kill really early sometimes! While I do think such a strong move should be less of a combo finisher and more of a whiff punish tool, I don't even mind if he has some combos into it!

My issue is that he had such a multitude of true combos into Waft at so many %s. I found it very stressful to play against, a stress that is tangibly felt by even top players (I can tell by their play in such situations). Such stress only means making a mistake is all the more likely. That would be alright for a % window or two, I think. But I really took issue with the fact that the % window was the whole stock. Do I have to avoid the true setup at 10%? Okay phew, I avoided it! Now I still have to avoid a true setup at 30%. And 50. And 80. And so on... In a game where strong kill options such as Lucina fair, Peach fair and Side-B, Pichu f-tilt, and so on have all gotten nerfs and forced the characters to play far more honestly, Waft just felt increasingly polarizing.

Lastly, I'd like to address your UI complaints... I don't really understand why it would be needed for Wario? I mean it's a fine thing to want I guess, but you do realize he glows browner and browner the more Waft charges, right? And his stomach gets bigger? And there's a twinkle near him, as well as on his eye in his character portrait, to give a small visual cue that Waft is ready? You play with a time limit on your matches, right? If not, they're sure what's used in competitive. Half Waft is ready to go at 55 seconds, and full Waft at 110 (and sooner than that if you eat stuff with Chomp). So you just need a decent sense of timing to help you realize when it's ready to go. Or heck, just forget about it for the first stock and plan on using it during the second stock since it'll probably take around that time to clear your opponent's first stock anyway. And don't forget, you have good camping ability to stall that timer at least a bit!

I'd like to leave you with this. If you're having trouble realizing the insane combo potential of Wario, including true combos into Waft, please take a look at this, and maybe you'll realize why it was honestly kinda busted:

I am sorry that this post is so long. I would like to thank everyone in the thread for coming to my WAHTalk.