Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Ziodyne 21]

The Marss vs Esam set . I get why peole can say ZSS struggles with small characters like Pikachu. However things like ZSS having a proper rising airiel as well as f-tilt now actullay being a reasonably safe poke likely makes the MU better than it ever was in Smash 4

 

[The_Bookworm]

In probably one of the most random turn of events I have seen in a long time, Konga DQ'ed himself out of Port Priority 5, and announced his retirement.

Quitting ult after this weekend ggs

— Konga (@DonkeyKong98123) September 8, 2019

 

[Ark of Silence101]

DreamHack Montreal 2019 (B Tier)

1st: Marss
2nd: ESAM
3rd: Gen
4th: Blacktwins
5th: Xcal
5th: Sandstorm
7th: SuperGirlKels
7th: Jayy
9th: Dunston
9th: Z
9th: Stas
9th: Venom
13th: Sensuell
13th: LA GRIMACE
13th: FSharp
13th: Hoe


So many Ken players. lol



During the development of Brawl, Snake was intended to be a lot bigger than he was in the end. However, towards the end of Brawl the devs decided to decrease his size to be more similar to other human-like characters (i.e. Link, ZSS, Marth, etc.).

However, some aspects of Snake was kept the same by accident. That is why Snake ended up being the 3rd heaviest character in Brawl, and has disproportionately large hitboxes in quite a bit of his moves (hello up tilt), despite the size decrease.

Snake's return in Ultimate allowed the developers to correct the mistakes left by the last-minute change in Brawl, which is why Snake is noticeably lighter (now being 17th-19th heaviest character) and his hitboxes are more streamlined.

That explains why a fair deal of his hitboxes reach further than they have any right to.

 

[Nate1080]

In probably one of the most random turn of events I have seen in a long time, Konga DQ'ed himself out of Port Priority 5, and announced his retirement.

Quitting ult after this weekend ggs

— Konga (@DonkeyKong98123) September 8, 2019

Just looked at his Twitter and holy hell does he moan and whine about DK being bad.

He definitely needs a break from the game.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Tra$h Koopa God 3-2 Mr E

 

[|RK|]

Just looked at his Twitter and holy hell does he moan and whine about DK being bad.

He definitely needs a break from the game.

He's upset that his favorite character sucks.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

He's upset that his favorite character sucks.

DK is not even the worst super-heavy. But he is arguabally the super-heavyweight with the worst disadvantage state and among the worst disavantage in the game. Which may basically be almost as bad as the former considering the mechanics of this game.


After the K.Rool hype died down everyone moved to saying DK was the best super-heavy and a high-tier character.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Just looked at his Twitter and holy hell does he moan and whine about DK being bad.

He definitely needs a break from the game.

I mean I don’t blame him. DK went from a strong clutch character in 4 that could steal games due to ding dong to frankly bad. I don’t like to say many characters in Ultimate are flat out bad because they aren’t but DK is pretty close to being able to be called flat out bad. It’s hard to go from being a player who could sure fire make top 16s at majors and steadily dominate your region to struggling to make it through top 64 in losers in regionals in your region. That definitely will affect your psyche.

DK losing Ding Dong was good for the game, it was frankly a awful way to design a character around such vital tool because without it the character loses the ability to compete and Ultimate DK proves this. DK did not lose aside Ding Dong a lot in the transition to Ultimate, he still has his top tier bair, strong tilt game, etc. hell he got buffs to his cargo throw but frankly none of it could replace the importance of Ding Dong to his viability.

None of the top and high level DKs from 4 have been able to come close to their success with the character and these aren’t bad players by no means, Hikaru still does very well with Trainer for example but it shows how bad DK really is in this game.

 

[Bobert]

Bowser losing his up throw kill confirm hardly mattered because flying slam basically replaced it and Bowser still has whirling fortress OoS. DK lost ding dong and pretty much got nothing for it in return while still having a horrid disadvantage in the same game where a lot of character's advantage states got a lot better. I completely understand Konga's frustration. His favorite character is getting shafted really hard and I know the feeling(Ganondorf..).

 

[The_Bookworm]

Middy 3-0 Big D

None of the top and high level DKs from 4 have been able to come close to their success with the character and these aren’t bad players by no means, Hikaru still does very well with Trainer for example but it shows how bad DK really is in this game.

Well none of the top DK players from SSB4 are very active in Ultimate, with Konga is one of those players. He doesn't compete that much, and he wasn't playing for 6 months straight during Ultimate's lifespan.

HIKARU is one of the few top DK players (who is still active anyways) that straight up switched different characters (which is probably the right call, cause Trainer is crazy in this game). DK is currently ranked #46 (with Wii Fit) on the TTS, which is sort of surprising considering that most top DK players from SSB4 are inactive throughout the entirety of this game. He is still pretty popular in low/mid level play and has seen decent success in those areas.

 

[KirbySquad101]

Konga made that post right after he lost to Middy in the Winner's Side; he then disqualified himself from the tournament against Stodge.
As for himself, I don't even think it's Ding Dong alone that crippled him; is doing just fine in this game without his similar shenanigans, even winning a C-Tier event just a few days ago.

However, if we're looking what they got from 4 to Ultimate....

Bowser nerfs:

- His massively disjointed pivot grab having less range.
- Losing his up throw KO confirm.

Bowser buffs:

- Getting F6 command grab that deals 22% damage on hit.
- Getting an NAir kill confirm.
- Getting an arguably much stronger mobility buff than anyone else in the cast (now amazing initial dash and air speed)
- Getting stronger tough guy armor that invalidates almost any rapid jab in the game.
- Getting +30% easy damage off of ledge-hogging Fire Breath
- Getting stronger KO power on pretty much every ground attack.

As for DK...

DK buffs:

- Armor on Headbutt
- A less laggy and stronger Dash Attack
- Less landing lag on Hand Slap
- Stronger cargo throws

DK nerfs:

- Losing Ding-Dong.
- Losing invincibility on aerial Spinning Kong, making him one of the easiest characters in the game to edgeguard.
- Less grab range on pivot grab.
- Making pretty much every ground move weaker except his smash attacks and dash attack.

Even taking Ding Dong out of the equation, the first and third points just introduce such a massive boatload of problems for DK: barely anything on the ground kills now besides sweetspotted UTilt and his smash attacks, which all require a hard read to get, he now has a ground game that's somehow even worse than Palutena on the premises that you get PUNISHED for winning neutral, while also lacking the versatility of Palutena's aerials outside of BAir and UAir, and one of the most exploitable recoveries in the game for how linear and vulnerable DK is from above.

Meanwhile, Bowser's casually taking stocks at 80%, and about a good chunk of that damage was probably off of his command grab.



Even if DK weren't a bad character, he's a character that almost feels unfinished half of the time you play him, and I think that's where a lot of people's frustrations come from when they talk about him, or a character like or for that matter. Major difference between DK and those two, though? DK is performing far worse than both those characters; I get that constantly criticizing your main can be annoying sometimes (believe me, there's only so much I can take from the constant #BuffCloud/#FixFalcon movements), but when you have a character that's feels neither good OR complete, can you really blame Konga for feeling the way he does about his character?

 

[L9999]

is totally low tier, a potato in every definition of the word. Has a big hurtbox, has no landing options, has no ledge options, has an exploitable recovery, his kit is not safe on hit at 0%, he has no projectiles or reflector.



Take DK and think how he does against the relevant characters. DK is pretty much a free win for a lot of them. His MUs against mid tier hell likely aren't good either, for example being near unwinnable (according to Konga anyway). You may say "DK is not that bad..." OK, who does he beat? If a potato can only beat potatoes like him is the character not bad enough? Someone has to be the worst by law, and DK has too many negative traits to be good.

DK is not even the worst super-heavy. But he is arguabally the super-heavyweight with the worst disadvantage state and among the worst disavantage in the game. Which may basically be almost as bad as the former considering the mechanics of this game.

I don't think judging a character by archetype has any merit. Does it matter if is better than for example? DK still sucks on his own merits.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Konga made that post right after he lost to Middy in the Winner's Side; he then disqualified himself from the tournament against Stodge.

The interesting thing about is that despite lacking a ton of reps, he's still ranked 46 on OrionStats over a fair chunk of the cast; I'm guessing it's mostly YMCA that's churning out the results?

As for DK himself, I don't even think it's Ding Dong alone that crippled him; is doing just fine in this game without his similar shenanigans, even winning a C-Tier event just a few days ago.

However, if we're looking what they got from 4 to Ultimate....

Bowser nerfs:

- His massively disjointed pivot grab having less range.
- Losing his up throw KO confirm.

Bowser buffs:

- Getting F6 command grab that deals 22% damage on hit.
- Getting an NAir kill confirm.
- Getting an arguably much stronger mobility buff than anyone else in the cast (now amazing initial dash and air speed)
- Getting stronger tough guy armor that invalidates almost any rapid jab in the game.
- Getting +30% easy damage off of ledge-hogging Fire Breath
- Getting stronger KO power on pretty much every ground attack.

As for DK...

DK buffs:

- Armor on Headbutt
- A less laggy and stronger Dash Attack
- Less landing lag on Hand Slap
- Stronger cargo throws

DK nerfs:

- Making UTilt, Jab, DTilt weaker and laggier to a point that they're all punishable on hit at low percents.
- Losing Ding-Dong.
- Losing invincibility on aerial Spinning Kong, making him one of the easiest characters in the game to edgeguard.
- Less grab range on pivot grab.
- Making pretty much every ground move weaker except his smash attacks and dash attack.

Even taking Ding Dong out of the equation, the first and third points just introduce such a massive boatload of problems for DK: barely anything on the ground kills now besides sweetspotted UTilt and his smash attacks, which all require a hard read to get, he now has a ground game that's somehow even worse than Palutena on the premises that you get PUNISHED for winning neutral, while also lacking the versatility of Palutena's aerials outside of BAir and UAir, and one of the most exploitable recoveries in the game for how linear and vulnerable DK is from above.

Meanwhile, Bowser's casually taking stocks at 80%, and about a good chunk of that damage was probably off of his command grab.



Even if DK weren't a bad character, he's a character that almost feels unfinished half of the time you play him, and I think that's where a lot of people's frustrations come from when they talk about him, or a character like or for that matter. Major difference between DK and those two, though? DK is performing far worse than both those characters; I get that constantly criticizing your main can be annoying sometimes (believe me, there's only so much I can take from the constant #BuffCloud/#FixFalcon movements), but when you have a character that's feels neither good OR complete, can you really blame Konga for feeling the way he does about his character?

I think Cloud actullay still works fine. I mean he is definelty not his Smash 4 self but all of his attacks and tools still technically work. Definetly moreseo than Ultimate Bayo or Corrin.

Just becuase he does not have an OP nair/ up-air or permanent Limit anymore does not mean he . Possibly the one Ool thing he needs is have his Limit meter run-down like Jokers Arsene meter so you dont have to count the 15 sec time-limit in your head

#Buffcloud is almost as silly as the "ZSS sucks" meme Marss started.

Characters like Falcon or Sonic have legit arguments since even as of version 5.0.0 they have attacks that do not work/connect as they should.

I still find it hillarious now that basically all big notable Smash 4 Cloud mains instantly abandoned him as soon as Ultimate came out. The execption being Spargo, but he really only started to make a name for himself near the end of Smash 4


I mean even most Smash 4 Bayo mains at least tried to stick with her and her work for Ultimate. That puts it really into perspective.
But the reaction to Ultimate Cloud wa like " Oh he no longer has infintie limit time? Then he isnt worth it anymore.

 

[The_Bookworm]

DK nerfs:

- Making UTilt, Jab, DTilt weaker and laggier to a point that they're all punishable on hit at low percents.
- Losing Ding-Dong.
- Losing invincibility on aerial Spinning Kong, making him one of the easiest characters in the game to edgeguard.
- Less grab range on pivot grab.
- Making pretty much every ground move weaker except his smash attacks and dash attack.

Minor nitpicks, but I am not sure if the changes to up tilt, jab 2, and down tilt is what causes them to be unsafe on-hit at low percents.

When you look at the precise changes, they aren't changed that much: up tilt deals 1% less damage; down tilt has 1 frame decreased startup, but two frames more endlag; jab 2 has 2 frames less startup, but 2 frames less endlag. Other characters in the game have this phenomenal as well. It might have more to do with the game engine imo.


Either way, things aren't looking the brightest for DK in the current moment. As a matter of fact, most other super-heavyweights aren't really doing too hot right now, with the major exceptions being Bowser, Dedede, and K. Rool (the latter of which is because he was never hot to begin with ). DK has been in a similar situation back in pre-patch SSB4 before receiving the Ding Dong, so maybe it can happen again? The devs definitely heard DK mains' cries for help when they fixed all of Giant Punch's issues through updates, so maybe time will tell.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Either way, when looking at things again, I pretty much realized how much better is in comparison to all the other super heavyweights.

Bowser is solidly in the upper-mid/high tier section, with his mains gaining success with him that all of his other iterations can only dream about. LeoN outright winning 2GG: Run it Back this weekend further boosting this.
Dedede is doing alright right now. One of the more popular characters in low/mid level play, and players like Zaki and Atomsk has put some work into him at high level. Solid mid tier imo, but definitely not at the same heights as Bowser.


Now for the unfortunate right now:
DK has some pretty solid rep in low/mid level play, emphasis on why he is at 46th at Orion Stats right now, but the game engine has definitely not done any favors, with very low success at high level play. Probably at the upper low tier right now, unfortunately. Definitely an example where you could have some solid QoL buffs, but then you have nerfs (direct or indirect) that hit you right on the spot.
Incineroar has not been doing too well lately either, but unlike DK, doesn't have the representation at lower level play. Now one could argue that he has obtained more success than DK at higher levels of play thanks to Magister, but Magister hasn't been doing too hot lately, with his sporadic attendance not doing much favors either. Probably upper low tier as well imo.
Ganondorf continues to be supported by some top players, but he has made very little to no impact in high level play after the Light upset. Has some decent rep in low/mid level play (not to the same extent as DK), but it doesn't really save him right now. He might also be at the low tiers.
PPlant is in an awkward spot. It is a big topic of discussion now after Brood's performance at Umebura SP 4, but it hasn't really done much outside of that. Brood hasn't yet matched that performance, and PPlant hasn't really done anything else really significant. He is most likely not in the bottom 5 anymore after that performance, but still not in a pretty good spot right now, especially considering that it still has a myriad of weaknesses left unanswered. Probably still a low tier. Now gotta go before $.A.F. finds me.
...do I even need to talk about him...

So yeah, super heavies aren't really doing nearly as well as we envisioned, except for our special flower: , who is ironically the super-heavyweight that everyone thought that the devs "ruined" back at the e3 demo. The sad part is that each of one of them, except for Ganondorf and maybe K. Rool, are easily fixable.

 

[SwagGuy99]

is totally low tier, a potato in every definition of the word. Has a big hurtbox, has no landing options, has no ledge options, has an exploitable recovery, his kit is not safe on hit at 0%, he has no projectiles or reflector.



Take DK and think how he does against the relevant characters. DK is pretty much a free win for a lot of them. His MUs against mid tier hell likely aren't good either, for example being near unwinnable (according to Konga anyway). You may say "DK is not that bad..." OK, who does he beat? If a potato can only beat potatoes like him is the character not bad enough? Someone has to be the worst by law, and DK has too many negative traits to be good.


I don't think judging a character by archetype has any merit. Does it matter if is better than for example? DK still sucks on his own merits.

Might as well throw into that list as well. DK can't really do anything against half of the cast and the only reason he does well against the rest of the characters is the fact that he's slightly better at running away than they are thanks to his half-way decent mobility.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Prodigy 3-1 Elegant
Kind of surprising considering Elegant's track record against Mario players.

Nicko 3-1 Dabuz
Between this and Dabuz's loss against Salem's Shulk, I think Dabuz has a bit of a Shulk problem.

Ouch!? 3-2 Lemmon to eliminate him at 17th place.

 

[Rizen]

Take DK and think how he does against the relevant characters. DK is pretty much a free win for a lot of them. His MUs against mid tier hell likely aren't good either, for example being near unwinnable (according to Konga anyway). .

Lol, what? First of all saying any character is free sounds really uninformed. You (the reader, not you personally) do that and a good Isabelle or Bowser Jr will wreck you. In this game you can't sleep on anyone. Too many times I've had to reevaluate MUs after playing a good player and thought "so that's how this character should be played". This is just Konga bellyaching about DK, not that I blame him.

Second, YL doesn't even have "nearly un-lose-able MUs". The closest would be DDD but I still consider that a solid advantage. This is the kind of complaining and bad theory that got projectiles universally nerfed. YL's number 31 on Orion stats. He's lower high tier imo but not anywhere near broken or close to as good as top tiers and his meager results show it. People always complain about him because he's good at zoning but do they ever stop and think he HAS to be? His frame data is comparable to hero's, his sword's small and all his projectiles lose to hitboxes. He also has to deal about 60% more damage on average per stock to close one. People need to learn the MU and most characters can deal with YL.

Third IMO the DK/YL MU is even.

YL has some solid advantages, in neutral his projectiles zone DK hard. The thing is YL's advantage state vs DK isn't much better than vs other opponents. YL's Uair is extremely weak, lasts a long time and pokes strait up. He can't keep juggling DK like characters with big swinging Uairs. DK's air speed is better than YL's (he's more mobile in general) he can veer to the side after being hit once and try to reset. YL's advantage looks strong because he works from combos that work on any character but when those end he doesn't have ideal tools to keep DK in disadvantage like other characters.
YL has no way to spike DK and can't take advantage of his linear recovery as hard as other characters. He can try to FF Nair on top of spinning kong at best. The strongest kill confirm YL has is Bair 1 to Fsmash but that's risky because DK wins CQC. DK however can wreck YL offstage. DK's Bair goes through everything YL has, boomerangs lose to it.
DK generally wins CQC and lives a lot longer. A grab at 80-90% will kill YL from a cargo throw. Although YL wins neutral, he has to win much more than DK.

So it ends up fairly even. YL has the better neutral but not a strong enough advantage state. DK only has to win a few exchanges and can wreck YL offstage. It's all about character tool interactions.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Minor nitpicks, but I am not sure if the changes to up tilt, jab 2, and down tilt is what causes them to be unsafe on-hit at low percents.

When you look at the precise changes, they aren't changed that much: up tilt deals 1% less damage; down tilt has 1 frame decreased startup, but two frames more endlag; jab 2 has 2 frames less startup, but 2 frames less endlag. Other characters in the game have this phenomenal as well. It might have more to do with the game engine imo.


Either way, things aren't looking the brightest for DK in the current moment. As a matter of fact, most other super-heavyweights aren't really doing too hot right now, with the major exceptions being Bowser, Dedede, and K. Rool (the latter of which is because he was never hot to begin with ). DK has been in a similar situation back in pre-patch SSB4 before receiving the Ding Dong, so maybe it can happen again? The devs definitely heard DK mains' cries for help when they fixed all of Giant Punch's issues through updates, so maybe time will tell.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Either way, when looking at things again, I pretty much realized how much better is in comparison to all the other super heavyweights.

Bowser is solidly in the upper-mid/high tier section, with his mains gaining success with him that all of his other iterations can only dream about. LeoN outright winning 2GG: Run it Back this weekend further boosting this.
Dedede is doing alright right now. One of the more popular characters in low/mid level play, and players like Zaki and Atomsk has put some work into him at high level. Solid mid tier imo, but definitely not at the same heights as Bowser.


Now for the unfortunate right now:
DK has some pretty solid rep in low/mid level play, emphasis on why he is at 46th at Orion Stats right now, but the game engine has definitely not done any favors, with very low success at high level play. Probably at the upper low tier right now, unfortunately. Definitely an example where you could have some solid QoL buffs, but then you have nerfs (direct or indirect) that hit you right on the spot.
Incineroar has not been doing too well lately either, but unlike DK, doesn't have the representation at lower level play. Now one could argue that he has obtained more success than DK at higher levels of play thanks to Magister, but Magister hasn't been doing too hot lately, with his sporadic attendance not doing much favors either. Probably upper low tier as well imo.
Ganondorf continues to be supported by some top players, but he has made very little to no impact in high level play after the Light upset. Has some decent rep in low/mid level play (not to the same extent as DK), but it doesn't really save him right now. He might also be at the low tiers.
PPlant is in an awkward spot. It is a big topic of discussion now after Brood's performance at Umebura SP 4, but it hasn't really done much outside of that. Brood hasn't yet matched that performance, and PPlant hasn't really done anything else really significant. He is most likely not in the bottom 5 anymore after that performance, but still not in a pretty good spot right now, especially considering that it still has a myriad of weaknesses left unanswered. Probably still a low tier. Now gotta go before $.A.F. finds me.
...do I even need to talk about him...

So yeah, super heavies aren't really doing nearly as well as we envisioned, except for our special flower: , who is ironically the super-heavyweight that everyone thought that the devs "ruined" back at the e3 demo. The sad part is that each of one of them, except for Ganondorf and maybe K. Rool, are easily fixable.

Yeah I mean at the start was saying Bowser would suck and not accomplish anything. Heck no one even considered him the best Superheavy until LeoN rose up.

At the beginning almost everyone bought into being the best super-heavy. He is so broken plz nerf Sakurai.

Then as the K.Rool hype died . was thr best supereavy and a high-tier character at leaar

Heck..I think people were saying or were the Top uperheavies over Bowser at some point in the meta.

But in the end. Bowser showed all his fellow superheavies to the real big-bad boss is

 

[KirbySquad101]

I think Cloud actullay still works fine. I mean he is definelty not his Smash 4 self but all of his attacks and tools still technically work. Definetly moreseo than Ultimate Bayo or Corrin.

Just becuase he does not have an OP nair/ up-air or permanent Limit anymore does not mean he . Possibly the one Ool thing he needs is have his Limit meter run-down like Jokers Arsene meter so you dont have to count the 15 sec time-limit in your head

#Buffcloud is almost as silly as the "ZSS sucks" meme Marss started.

Characters like Falcon or Sonic have legit arguments since even as of version 5.0.0 they have attacks that domt work/connect as they should.

I still find it hillarious now that basically all big notable Smash 4 Cloud mains instantly abandoned him as soon as Ultimate came out. The execption being Spargo, but he really only started to make a name for himself near the end of Smash 4


I mean even most Smash 4 Bayo mains at least tried to stick with her and her work for Ultimate. That puts it really into perspective.
But the reaction to Ultimate Cloud wa like " Oh he no longer has infintie limit time? Then he isnt worth it anymore.

Oh, make no mistake, I think both (and ) is good, it's just the issues he seems to suffer from issues (his sword clipping through characters and the jostle mechanics making his Up B way worse against going through bodies) that feel more unintentional than anything.

I will agree the second thing is kind of a problem, but sword clipping issues are common to every sword character ( can literally slice through 's toes with DTilt, and nothing will happen).

Minor nitpicks, but I am not sure if the changes to up tilt, jab 2, and down tilt is what causes them to be unsafe on-hit at low percents.

When you look at the precise changes, they aren't changed that much: up tilt deals 1% less damage; down tilt has 1 frame decreased startup, but two frames more endlag; jab 2 has 2 frames less startup, but 2 frames less endlag. Other characters in the game have this phenomenal as well. It might have more to do with the game engine imo.

Ah, you might be right; I ran some calculations on the Smash Ultimate Calculator, and not much changed as far as hitstun or knockback is concerned (at lower percents) is concerned. Guess I gotta do more research lol.

Prodigy 3-1 Elegant
Kind of surprising considering Elegant's track record against Mario players.

Nicko 3-1 Dabuz
Between this and Dabuz's loss against Salem's Shulk, I think Dabuz has a bit of a Shulk problem.

Salem 3-1 Tra$h Koopa God
This isn't anything too notable, but Salem notably had to switch over to Snake in order to get this victory.
Salem's persistence in pushing Hero's metagame is very admirable, but it is honestly not going to cut it for him.

Ouch!? 3-2 Lemmon to eliminate him at 17th place.
I might be mistaken, but I think Ouch!? is a Meta Knight main. Can someone confirm for me?

DW said on his Twitter that Ouch?! used against him.

EDIT: Dabuz 3-1s Pokepen to eliminate him at 17th place. Pokepen forced the switch out of Dabuz after he defeated his Olimar, and then afterwards, Dabuz defeated him pretty convincingly with Rosalina.

 

[Game7a1]

Salem 3-1 Tra$h Koopa God
This isn't anything too notable, but Salem notably had to switch over to Snake in order to get this victory.
Salem's persistence in pushing Hero's metagame is very admirable, but it is honestly not going to cut it for him.

He started the set with Snake and only went Snake. Salem didn't do so well game 1, but he figured out what to do for the next 3 games.

 

[Impax]

Minor nitpicks, but I am not sure if the changes to up tilt, jab 2, and down tilt is what causes them to be unsafe on-hit at low percents.

When you look at the precise changes, they aren't changed that much: up tilt deals 1% less damage; down tilt has 1 frame decreased startup, but two frames more endlag; jab 2 has 2 frames less startup, but 2 frames less endlag. Other characters in the game have this phenomenal as well. It might have more to do with the game engine imo.


Either way, things aren't looking the brightest for DK in the current moment. As a matter of fact, most other super-heavyweights aren't really doing too hot right now, with the major exceptions being Bowser, Dedede, and K. Rool (the latter of which is because he was never hot to begin with ). DK has been in a similar situation back in pre-patch SSB4 before receiving the Ding Dong, so maybe it can happen again? The devs definitely heard DK mains' cries for help when they fixed all of Giant Punch's issues through updates, so maybe time will tell.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Either way, when looking at things again, I pretty much realized how much better is in comparison to all the other super heavyweights.

Bowser is solidly in the upper-mid/high tier section, with his mains gaining success with him that all of his other iterations can only dream about. LeoN outright winning 2GG: Run it Back this weekend further boosting this.
Dedede is doing alright right now. One of the more popular characters in low/mid level play, and players like Zaki and Atomsk has put some work into him at high level. Solid mid tier imo, but definitely not at the same heights as Bowser.


Now for the unfortunate right now:
DK has some pretty solid rep in low/mid level play, emphasis on why he is at 46th at Orion Stats right now, but the game engine has definitely not done any favors, with very low success at high level play. Probably at the upper low tier right now, unfortunately. Definitely an example where you could have some solid QoL buffs, but then you have nerfs (direct or indirect) that hit you right on the spot.
Incineroar has not been doing too well lately either, but unlike DK, doesn't have the representation at lower level play. Now one could argue that he has obtained more success than DK at higher levels of play thanks to Magister, but Magister hasn't been doing too hot lately, with his sporadic attendance not doing much favors either. Probably upper low tier as well imo.
Ganondorf continues to be supported by some top players, but he has made very little to no impact in high level play after the Light upset. Has some decent rep in low/mid level play (not to the same extent as DK), but it doesn't really save him right now. He might also be at the low tiers.
PPlant is in an awkward spot. It is a big topic of discussion now after Brood's performance at Umebura SP 4, but it hasn't really done much outside of that. Brood hasn't yet matched that performance, and PPlant hasn't really done anything else really significant. He is most likely not in the bottom 5 anymore after that performance, but still not in a pretty good spot right now, especially considering that it still has a myriad of weaknesses left unanswered. Probably still a low tier. Now gotta go before $.A.F. finds me.
...do I even need to talk about him...

So yeah, super heavies aren't really doing nearly as well as we envisioned, except for our special flower: , who is ironically the super-heavyweight that everyone thought that the devs "ruined" back at the e3 demo. The sad part is that each of one of them, except for Ganondorf and maybe K. Rool, are easily fixable.

Northcals incineroar Brandon recently made a matchup list. I think he only gave the character one winning matchup

Edit:
https://mobile.twitter.com/brandonssbu/status/1169003506260414470

 

[KirbySquad101]

Big D 3-0s DW , eliminating him at 17th place.
Mr E 3-2s Elegant , eliminating him at 17th place.

It always feels like anytime a Mario player falls short (Dark Wizzy) in a tournament, another one shows up to take the helm (Prodigy) lol.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Big D 3-0s DW , eliminating him at 17th place.
Mr E 3-0s Elegant , eliminating him at 17th place.

It always feels like anytime a Mario player falls behind (Dark Wizzy), another one shows up to take the helm (Prodigy) lol.

Mr E 3-2 Elegant

I legitimately think that this is the first time DW has ever fought an Ice Climber player, so I guess this isn't too much of a surprise.

Top 5 at S tier to 17th at B tier. Im sorry guys, i really don’t know what made me feel so shaky today. My performance today was really pathetic. Disappointment to myself and many others

— ⚔️ Stride | Dark Wizzy ⚔️ (@Dark_Wizzy_) September 9, 2019

He started the set with Snake and only went Snake. Salem didn't do so well game 1, but he figured out what to do for the next 3 games.

Thanks for letting me know. Seems like Salem is thinking to himself now: "Now, I will try."

 

[Minordeth]

Y’all are being so bizarrely cautious about Bowser.

“Maybe is almost sort of kinda maybe a low high tier!”

“Yeah! He could easily be high-mid!”

Come on.

How much more does this turtle have to do to be considered a really good character? Take big names among different players? Make top 8 appearances at majors? Win whole tournaments over other top players? Have a great toolset and attribute package that can deal with a variety of opposing styles?

Cause Bowser checks all those boxes. Maybe it’s time to let the stigma of a “Smash super heavy” go and realize that Bowser is the real deal.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Also not that it apparently matters. But Bowser got a nerf to his recovery from Smash 4 in that it has a bit less distance or a slightly smaller hitbox
But as it was mentioned the buffs he got in Ultimate far outweigh any of the nerfs

 

[The_Bookworm]

Deci 3-0 Big D
He then got reverse 3-0'd by Nicko. Still a valiant performance, getting 9th here.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Deci 3-0 Big D
He then got reverse 3-0'd by Nicko. Still a valiant performance, getting 9th here.

Robin has actullay been getting fairly decent results as of late. Worth noting at least since He/She is generally considered low-mid tier

 

[Cheryl~]

Salem 3-0s BestNess using instead of Snake to get into Top 8 Winners Side. I'm guessing his plan is to co-main Snake and Hero for this tournament, with a slight chance for Shulk or whatever else he decides to pull out if things get rough.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Salem 3-0s BestNess using instead of Snake to get into Top 8 Winners Side. I'm guessing his plan is to co-main Snake and Hero for this tournament, with a slight chance for Shulk or whatever else he decides to pull out if things get rough.

When watching Salem vs BestNess, the latter was definitely doing some sketchy stuff during the matchup, such as predictably landing in Salem's line of sight in quick succession only to get side B'd multiple times, and generally not pushing his advantage not as well as he could've. Considering that BestNess has having some difficulty with a random Hero player a few weekends ago, he may have some difficulty in the matchup overall.


Edit:
Port Priority 5 Top 8

Winner's
yeti vs Maister
Stroder vs Salem

Loser's
Nicko vs Prodigy
MVD vs Dabuz

 

[KirbySquad101]

Dang, everytime Prodigy had a lead, Nicko would quickly take it back preeeettttyy quickly.

Nicko 3-1s Prodigy , eliminating him at 7th.

 

[SwagGuy99]

Y’all are being so bizarrely cautious about Bowser.

“Maybe is almost sort of kinda maybe a low high tier!”

“Yeah! He could easily be high-mid!”

Come on.

How much more does this turtle have to do to be considered a really good character? Take big names among different players? Make top 8 appearances at majors? Win whole tournaments over other top players? Have a great toolset and attribute package that can deal with a variety of opposing styles?

Cause Bowser checks all those boxes. Maybe it’s time to let the stigma of a “Smash super heavy” go and realize that Bowser is the real deal.

Yes. People are too busy speculating on how bad Bowser's disadvantage state and recovery are compared to the rest of the super-heavies to actually see that his strengths are absurd to the point where they can sometimes negate those issues in some matchups.

For example, Bowser's disadvantage is absolutely horrendous against Fox. However, Bowser destroys Fox offstage and if Fox is in disadvantage, then Fox is taking a lot of damage. And since Bowser's disadvantage is so bad against Fox it is likely that Bowser has already taken a lot of damage, and is going to have a lot of rage because of that.

This is just one example of how Bowser's weaknesses aren't as bad as they are made out to be and (like I pointed out earlier today) we need to stop being cautious about Bowser's placement just because super-heavyweights are normally bad.

Is Bowser the best character in the game or anything? No. Could he be considered a top tier in a few months/years given that his results keep climbing at the steady rate they have been or if certain top tiers get nerfed in future patches? Possibly.

 

[Nobie]

I don't know about all the superheavies, but I strongly believe Bowser is going to have long-term success.

Just casually pointing out that I've believed in Bowser since Day 1...

Moving on to the topic of Banjo & Kazooie, Wonderwing is a really interesting mechanic to add and balance around.

In some ways, it's similar to Witch Time, in that it punishes predictability hard. If you get complacent with your projectiles, or you whiff an attack, there's a good chance you're getting Wonderwinged. Because of this, I imagine that light characters are way more afraid of BK than heavier ones.

At the same time, it's probably the strictest form of meter/ammo management in Smash because it doesn't recharge outside of death. Every Wonderwing used on offense, successful or otherwise, is one that can't be used for defense anymore and vice versa. In a way, it's a beginner-friendly move for BK users that transforms dramatically in the hands of an expert.

I think the scariest characters for BK will be the ones who can go out and challenge his recovery blow for blow. As Thinkaman pointed out, his recovery tools are versatile but not especially impressive outside of Wonderwing. So characters like Mewtwo, Meta Knight, Pikachu, and maybe Ridley could be problems. I'm really curious about the Ridley-BK matchup, as Ridley Side B seems an ideal counter to Wonderwing.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

I think it safe to say Bowser is proven himself to be a high tier. On the lower of it right now? fine. But its still a Super-Heavy in high-tier solely getting though thier own merits and strong fundaments rather than anything like ding-donging .

 

[Goodstyle_4]

Here's a hot take, but Mii Gunner without the Grenade launcher special is a whole tier down from where he would be with it.

 

[The_Bookworm]

So as JaDX in Ciphercord discovered watching Treta 2019, if PT switches in a team with Joker after being damaged, it will fill Rebel gauge and call Arsene faster.

I believe this is because the game registers each Pokemon as a new character and dumps in free meter to compensate. pic.twitter.com/gAOqXThqSY

— Fiend /̵͇̿̿/’̿’̿ ̿ ̿̿ ̿̿ ̿̿ Full Moon 🌕 Full Life (@SonicfiendFGC) September 9, 2019

This is going to make the team so evil to deal with.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Also, why is Stroder going against Nicko? Some people in Twitch chat is saying that Stroder is throwing the match according to his twitter, but can someone confirm it for me?

 

[Anomika]

Stroder / StroKaze is like Rizeasu Jr, he has a lot of characters he uses in tournaments, and will likely change the roster again soon. I remember StroKaze sticking with some time ago but could've changed.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Port Priority 5 (B Tier)

1st: Salem
2nd: Nicko
3rd: yeti
4th: Dabuz
5th: Stroder
5th: Maister
7th: MVD
7th: Prodigy
9th: BestNess
9th: Mr E
9th: Myran
9th: Deci
13th: Big D
13th: Ouch!?
13th: Pandarian
13th: Captain L
17th: Dark Wizzy
17th: Tra$h Koopa God
17th: Elegant
17th: Middy
17th: Fatality
17th: Pokepen
17th: Active
17th: jaredisking1


This is definitely a good wake up call for Snake, with MVD placing 7th here, and Salem winning the whole thing with an extra side of Hero for specific matchups.

Shulk's results and notoriety have been soaring the past two weekends, with Kome's performance at Switchfest and Nicko's performance here. Definitely a step in the right direction for the character. (Has the Xenoblade HD announcement powered them up?)

 

[Impax]

Port Priority 5 (B Tier)

1st: Salem
2nd: Nicko
3rd: yeti
4th: Dabuz
5th: Stroder
5th: Maister
7th: MVD
7th: Prodigy
9th: BestNess
9th: Mr E
9th: Myran
9th: Deci
13th: Big D
13th: Ouch!?
13th: Pandarian
13th: Captain L
17th: Dark Wizzy
17th: Tra$h Koopa God
17th: Elegant
17th: Middy
17th: Fatality
17th: Pokepen
17th: Active
17th: jaredisking1


This is definitely a good wake up call for Snake, with MVD placing 7th here, and Salem winning the whole thing with an extra side of Hero for specific matchups.

Shulk's results and notoriety have been soaring the past two weekends, with Kome's performance at Switchfest and Nicko's performance here. Definitely a step in the right direction for the character. (Has the Xenoblade HD announcement powered them up?)

I believe nicko won this tournament last year. He may just do well here

 

[ZephyrZ]

When talking about what makes a character "good", I think it can be easy to get a little swept up in the buffs/nerfs they've received in the past and forget the big picture of how their kit all works together. Whether or not you think he's High or High Mid tier, I think we all agree that he's pretty good. But for all of this talk about how he's been buffed, I've barely seen anyone really mention how its played into his neutral gameplan.

I've been binge watching Leon sets for the few hours because I'm a huge fan of Bowser and I really want to understand how that character ticks. And I think what a lot of what Bowser's buffs did for him as a whole was give him a much stronger aerial approach.

There's his mobility buffs, obviously. He's received a significant increase to air speed and his jump squat was cut by more then half, allowing him to fly at you much faster then he ever could have before.

He has his Fair, which has always had a crazy good hitbox, has had 10 frames shaved off it's landing lag since Sm4sh making it a much safer move to throw out. Its arching hitbox gives it great vertical coverage, making it a very effective air-to-air approach while still being able to hit grounded opponents. LeoN uses this move an awful lot in neutral. It also has strong reward and can even lead into a grab or tech chase against a grounded opponent. It's not really safe on shield but with weaker shields in this game I'm not seeing it get blocked nor punished often.

Then there is his Nair, and I don't think I need to explain why that's good. It may not have Fair's forward arching hitbox but it is a crazy good combo starter that can even kill confirm early near the ledge.

Then there is Flying Press, the glue that holds his kit together. Not only is this move an amazing punish tool, but it also has a ton of synergy with his Nair and Fair. It adds a layer of ambiguity when Bowser jumps at you - while neither of his aerial approaches are really that safe on shield, the fact that he can always mix you up with this makes shielding against Bowser very scary. Most often when LeoN uses this move in neutral he jumps towards his opponent first, making his opponent expect and aerial and hitting them with the side b on the way down. This combination also makes Bowser very good at aggressive conditioning.

All of this amounts to the point that that I'd dare say that Bowser is more of a rushdown character in this game then he is a "bait and punish" character like we've always viewed him in the past. In Smash 4, Bowser played a largely grounded game where he mostly just fished for grabs, but in Ultimate his game plan seems to be more about catching you off guard with an explosive approach then uses his massive hitboxes to trap you in the corner.

On that note his kit is amazing for corner pressure (as traditional grapplers are meant to be) but that's for a different rambly post on another day.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

What's the deal with smash tournament names? Port Priority 5? Really.