• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

?


  • Total voters
    585

Nate1080

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 17, 2015
Messages
131
Location
New York
NNID
Nate1080
Who is Armada? I've never heard of him placing in tournaments.
Retired top Melee player (best Melee Peach). One of the early top Inkling players in Ultimate, but took a break from competitive Ultimate until recently iirc.


Several things came up in my last tournament.

Someone was complaining about :ulthero:'s magic burst killing them twice and brought up an interesting point: "Hero's RNG is not a problem in high level play but it is in mid level play." I can see this because mid level players are less safe and more likely to get hit by Hero's menu spells, which kill stupidly early. I've had hatchet man kill Wolf at 20% from across the stage. Hero's not going to win any major tournaments but he can be disruptive to certain unlucky players.

Food for thought.
As someone who has grinded the hell out of Hero, if you get hit by his menu spells a lot of the time, it's your fault 9 times out of 10 tbh. Mainly when you're on stage, if he catches you in the air: tough nuggets. People need to learn to shield and pay attention to his options in the menu, other than hatchet man they all lose to shield (or reflectors/some counters if you have the option) and are all completely reactable. People need to learn the match up in general tbh, as Hero is only good when you don't know what he does; the Hero player needs hard reads to be able to do anything real because he's a very honest character.


Stealth burst can't be seen if you don't know it's coming.
Uhhh...I think that's the point. I know what you mean, but this sentence was just funny to me.
 

$.A.F.

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 13, 2018
Messages
426
Location
The Plant Gang HQ
Retired top Melee player (best Melee Peach). One of the early top Inkling players in Ultimate, but took a break from competitive Ultimate until recently iirc.




As someone who has grinded the hell out of Hero, if you get hit by his menu spells a lot of the time, it's your fault 9 times out of 10 tbh. Mainly when you're on stage, if he catches you in the air: tough nuggets. People need to learn to shield and pay attention to his options in the menu, other than hatchet man they all lose to shield (or reflectors/some counters if you have the option) and are all completely reactable. People need to learn the match up in general tbh, as Hero is only good when you don't know what he does; the Hero player needs hard reads to be able to do anything real because he's a very honest character.




Uhhh...I think that's the point. I know what you mean, but this sentence was just funny to me.
Hero is a lot of things but he really isn't honest. I don't believe he should be banned or even that he's good, and there really isn't a chance of him being banned now, but he is one of the least honest characters in the game if not the most.
 

Nate1080

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 17, 2015
Messages
131
Location
New York
NNID
Nate1080
Explain, because all of his moves are telegraphed and laggy. He literally has a menu that everyone can see and read.

Hero literally cannot trick or lie to the opponent.
 

Zinith

Yoshi is Thicc in S P I R I T
Joined
May 13, 2018
Messages
24,712
Location
All around you, awaiting to consume your soul
Switch FC
SW-4624-0132-9722
Armada releases his 4.0/5.0 tier-list. There isn't much difference between both versions, so yeah:
S-tier::ultsnake::ultlucina::ultpeach::ultzss::ultpokemontrainerf::ultjoker::ultinkling::ultwario::ultmegaman::ultpikachu::ultolimar:
A-tier::ultwolf::ultpichu::ultroy::ultchrom::ultfox::ultshulk::ultpalutena::ultmario::ultgreninja::ultrob:
B-tier::ultgnw::ultpacman::ultken::ultike::ultlink::ultbowser::ultwiifittrainer::ultryu::ultfalco:
C-tier::ultduckhunt::ultness::ultyoshi::ultluigi::ultyounglink::ultdiddy::ulthero::ultfalcon::ulttoonlink::ultbanjokazooie:(l wouldn't rank him, yet):ultlucario::ultmarth::ultsamus::ultkingdedede::ultridley:
D-tier::ultrosalina::ultcloud::ultmetaknight::ulticeclimbers::ultganondorf::ultrichter::ultlucas::ultsheik::ultincineroar::ultdk::ultdoc:
E-tier::ultmewtwo::ultpit::ultpiranha::ultvillager::ultjigglypuff::ultcorrinf::ultbowserjr::ultzelda::ultlittlemac:
F-tier::ultisabelle::ultkrool::ultkirby:
Unranked: :ultsonic::ultbayonetta::ultbrawler::ultgunner::ultswordfighter::ultrobinf:

There are some odd placements, but yeah. I guess it looks pretty decent for the most part, though.

What this tier-list seperates from Void's are placements of PP or Shiek to only name a few. So it seems that Armada doesn't weigh in tournament results as much as Void does and he doesn't seem to hype these characters up, which is good.)
Ness looks kinda low in both lists. It doesn't really surprise me, however Gackt and BestNess do really place well in recent tournaments. The big Ness player in Fow isn't going to (m)any tournaments outside of Vegas, though. Same for Awestin which I think holds Ness back quite a bit. Fow was ranked 12th on the Sm4sh PGR at some point and he's still pretty good but yeah.

Young Link seems rather low but he isn'T used as much as in season 1 and it seems that the trend continues. He does well at some smaller tournaments (see SKITTLES for example) but I also don't see him that often at C-tiers or higher. So I guess C-tier looks justified.

Overall, it seems that the tier-list is mostly on par with the Orion Stats on the lower ranked characters (except Zelda by a very large margin which is kinda baffling to me).
Yoshi seems quite low in comparison to his Orion Stats...
 

Rizen

Smash Legend
Joined
May 7, 2009
Messages
14,908
Location
Colorado
As someone who has grinded the hell out of Hero, if you get hit by his menu spells a lot of the time, it's your fault 9 times out of 10 tbh. Mainly when you're on stage, if he catches you in the air: tough nuggets. People need to learn to shield and pay attention to his options in the menu, other than hatchet man they all lose to shield (or reflectors/some counters if you have the option) and are all completely reactable. People need to learn the match up in general tbh, as Hero is only good when you don't know what he does; the Hero player needs hard reads to be able to do anything real because he's a very honest character.
In neutral sure but menu is a lot better when Hero's in advantage (and in doubles imo). You don't want to shield magic burst either. TBT there's not much most characters can do in disadvantage vs magic burst and some of his spells have big hitboxes like thwack. There's all kinds of theory crafting and hindsight's 20/20 but disadvantage is called that for a reason. You don't have good options.

Hero's not a good character but he has rediculously OP jank. Zoom is pretty janky too, returning Hero to the stage for free and thwarting every edge guard. Hero's just a poorly designed character who is weak 95% of a match then kills you at 20% of a lucky read. Like I said, I'm not for banning him.
 

Dream Cancel

It's just good business
Joined
May 10, 2015
Messages
247
Location
Texas
NNID
DreamXX
3DS FC
4571-1273-3502
Switch FC
SW-4309-2808-7588
-snip-
_____________________________
Several things came up in my last tournament.

Someone was complaining about :ulthero:'s magic burst killing them twice and brought up an interesting point: "Hero's RNG is not a problem in high level play but it is in mid level play." I can see this because mid level players are less safe and more likely to get hit by Hero's menu spells, which kill stupidly early. I've had hatchet man kill Wolf at 20% from across the stage. Hero's not going to win any major tournaments but he can be disruptive to certain unlucky players.

Food for thought.
___________________
-snip-
If I may draw parallels to another game; League of Legends (and I imagine games like Overwatch/CS:GO) have characters (called champions in that game) who are notorious at lower ranks. Some champions dumpster lower levels of play due to a variety of factors, but the main one is:

Not knowing your MU, and general/character-specific counter-play

This seems basic, but remains telling, imo. Statements like, "Hero is weak to rushdown," "Heavies are combo food," or "Just throw Mac/Chrom/Cloud off-stage," are pretty useless if you don't know how to execute them, and why you should or shouldn't do them to begin with.

Even top-level players like Samsora are still figuring out some fairly straightforward strategies. In a recent video called, "The Mind of Samsora: Bait and Punish," he describes one of his improvements in the Joker MU (at 5:09 in the video). "You know Joker is going to dash towards you [to use Arsene]... Wow, he's [MKLeo] going to dash towards me, I can just hit him out of his dash."

This is a top 5 player in the world figuring out and applying a simple but different approach to handling Arsene Joker. This seems like obvious counter-play to accomplish "waiting out Arsene." But, if even top level players are ironing out their strategies, it's no wonder lower levels of play (which everything is lower than top level, lol) struggle with standard counter-play. Players are still playing "how they want to play," versus "how they want to win."

Which is... adaptation in a nutshell. We can look at older, more refined games to see optimized game states and win conditions. (Like specific MUs in Melee)
 

Locke 06

Sayonara, bye bye~
Joined
Oct 2, 2014
Messages
2,725
Location
Grad School
NNID
tl.206
Note that hero's 30% projectiles do not lose to shield. You've wasted some of hero's meter and taken shield damage, but you haven't directly punished him. And some of these projectiles he's probably + on block.

And anyone who's been hit by sizzle in neutral can tell you that is not easily reactable.
 

KirbySquad101

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 7, 2015
Messages
927
From what I gathered from ultimateframedata.com, most of :ulthero:'s specials on block are -15 frames or worse; the major exception to this is his Kaboom, which is +2 on block (basically another reason why it's one of the best spells to get from the Command Selection). As far as I know, the only other projectile attack that's plus on block is :ultsamus:'s nearly fully charged Charge Shot, which is +4 on block (oh yeah, can we talk about Samus and why in the world is this move so damn good?).

To be fair, most projectiles in the game don't really lose to shields in general, especially with Power Shields cut; it's a large part of what makes zoning characters like :ulttoonlink:, :ultsnake:, :ultduckhunt:, :ultpacman: (and :ultpikachu: if you consider Thunder Jolts enough to make him a zoning character) work as well as they do: Even if you do shield their stuff, you're still not out of the woods. You still need to find a way to break their wall, and if you don't know how to do it, the zoner will most certainly profit off of it, which in turn is what makes certain match-ups like Duck Hunt or Zelda such a frustrating experience, even if it feels like it shouldn't be one.

-------------------------------
On the subject of tier lists and stuff, I have to give props to VoiD and Armada in showing restraint when ranking :ultshulk:; I imagine Kome's recent performances would've made it really tempting to start labeling him as an easy top tier. Outside of a few bizarre placements in Armada's tier lis (I wouldn't rate :ultcloud: or :ultness: that low), I think his in particular gives a pretty good gist of what our meta looks like.

I'm not too surprised that he finds :ultlink: to be the best Link given his experience with Izaw, but it's an interesting thing to think about, nonetheless; out of all the three Links, he has the least representation, but he arguably has the strongest player out of all them in the form of T, who continues to do very well in Japan tournaments (for the most part).

I think T's usage and handling of Link's Remote Bomb in tournaments is probably why Armada thinks so highly of it compared to :ultyounglink:'s and :ulttoonlink:'s Bombs. T doesn't use it all the time, but the times that he does use it, he incorporates it so well into his gameplay, whether it's to use it as a KO confirm into Spin Attack, a ledge trapping option, or what looks to be a really hard-to-interrupt recovery option, just because of how fast Link flies from the thing (something I feel makes :ultbanjokazooie:'s version of this recovery tactic more exploitable in comparison). It's a large contribution to why T has such a good Link and why he's basically the only Link around making it far in the big leagues.

Because of this, I do agree that Link doesn't seem very natural as a secondary, especially if you're specifically looking for a secondary to cover up problematic match-ups in particular. Outside of the fact that I can't really think of a lot of match-ups Link hard wins in (except maybe :ultkirby: or :ultjigglypuff:?), Link is a very technical character that does require the player to consistently pull off his Bomb shenanigans effectively, something that even Link mains haven't fully gotten the hang of (i.e. Bernie at Smash Factor 8, or heck, T at Prime Saga); for a more simple, but effective secondary, :ultpalutena::ultchrom::ultroy::ultlucina::ultwolf: (and maybe :ultcloud:?) are all characters who fit this mold pretty well.
 
Last edited:

Ziodyne 21

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 11, 2016
Messages
1,681
Ok I may be super late on my thoughts on :ultbanjokazooie: is that they are the most "Un-DLC" like newcomer characters introduced thougout the history of Smash DLC.

Well maybe I am talking from the later end on Smash 4 etc. To Ultimates DLC Fighter Pass

Where they just feel fairly restrained yet solid and effective. They dont have any notalble crazy gimmicks or flashy looking shenanigans like Smash 4 Bayo/Cloud, or Ulitimate's Joker/Hero. Or even the odd WTF factor of Plant. They just play like well, an average smash character. To be honest it does feel a bit refreshing in a way.
 
Last edited:

Nate1080

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 17, 2015
Messages
131
Location
New York
NNID
Nate1080
I’m starting to notice that banjo has to work really hard to get a kill.

Wonderwing is the only move I’ve found so far that can somewhat consistently kill under 100. Everything else kills at about 130-140 reliably.

Because everyone expects Wonderwing and grenade shenanigans, people block and jump a lot at high percents against Banjo in my experience. You have to fish and bs the opponent for a while before many people open themselves up for a kill.
 

Arthur97

Smash Master
Joined
Jun 7, 2016
Messages
3,463
I mean, in an alternate history where Microsoft didn't buy Rare, they probably already would have been in the game. Them being normal is just right. They feel like they really belong.
 

RonNewcomb

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 29, 2014
Messages
449
Ok I may be super late on my thoughts on :ultbanjokazooie: is that they are the most "Un-DLC" like newcomer characters introduced thougout the history of Smash DLC.

They just play like well, an average smash character. To be honest it does feel a bit refreshing in a way.
Yeah, kinda like they were introduced in this form in Smash 64, then ported to this timeline...

(Edit: A timeline in which I didn't just get ninja'ed.)
 
Last edited:

Rizen

Smash Legend
Joined
May 7, 2009
Messages
14,908
Location
Colorado
Interestingly, Kobe won the:
Gainesville Stock Exchange 100 (256 entrants) (Gainesville, Florida)

1. Kobe :ultyounglink::ultlucina:

With a combination of YL and Lucina. This ties into what I was saying about YL needing a secondary but being a good CP character.

_____________________________________
:ultlink:'s a weird character. IMO he's the worst of the 3 Links and that shows on orion stats as well.
His strong points are good zoning with both a big sword and projectiles. Great landing trapping with a huge Utilt and Usmash. Great offstage intercepting with bombs, arrows and Nair. Great landing game with only 6f lag on N/Bair plus the highest increase in ff speed in the game. A fast f6 grab that's not a tether. Good kill power. And a versatile recovery he can mix up with bombs at higher %s.

Link's weak points are slow frame data, even slower than Hero's in many areas. No fast GTFO option. Poor all around mobility. Aerials poke out and have big blind spots at diagonal angles. Poor approach options.
That last one makes up a lot of Link's bad MUs. He often can force approaches and play defensively but when the opponent shuts that down, like TL or Olimar out-spamming him, Falco with lasers and reflector, etc he can really struggle vs defensive opponents. Because Link's slow frame data and blind spots I don't think he wins vs relevant swordsmen either.

Link's got a good but not great neutral, good advantage and decent disadvantage. He's too slow for anything to be stellar. As such I see him in upper mid tier.
 
Last edited:

Spinosaurus

Treasure Hunter
Moderator
Joined
Sep 6, 2010
Messages
3,655
NNID
WarioLand
Banjo and Kazooie feels like they're cut from the same cloth as characters like Pac Man and Duck Hunt to me. I don't really think they're orthodox.
 

Rizen

Smash Legend
Joined
May 7, 2009
Messages
14,908
Location
Colorado
Banjo and Kazooie feels like they're cut from the same cloth as characters like Pac Man and Duck Hunt to me. I don't really think they're orthodox.
The only reason any character seems orthodox in smash is so many came from clones, lol.
 

Ziodyne 21

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 11, 2016
Messages
1,681
The only reason any character seems orthodox in smash is so many came from clones, lol.

B&K are certianally the most "orthodox" character that was introduced in the game via DLC along with possibly Corrin. Honestly they are no less werid or play "different" then say G&W or IC's who have been around since Melee.
Honestly thats a good comarison for Banjo and Kazooie, they play feel like they could of always been in Smash since the beginnimg
 
Last edited:

The_Bookworm

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 10, 2018
Messages
3,205
Not sure if anyone noticed, but three pretty notable events are going on right now under people's noses: 2GG: Run it Back, DreamHack Montreal 2019 and Port Priority 5.

2GG: Run it Back basically consists of some of the players who was at Switchfest, plus LeoN. Seems like B tier at best.
Tea:ultpacman:
WaDi:ultrob:
LeoN:ultbowser:
Kome:ultshulk:
Umeki:ultdaisy:
Mystearica:ultzelda:
Gomakenpi:ultolimar::ultmario::ulthero:
colinies:ultyounglink:
Darkshad:ultshulk::ultwolf:
Ksev:ultsnake:
Geist:ultbayonetta:

DreamHack Montreal seems like a solid A tier tournament:
Marss:ultzss:
ESAM:ultpikachu:
Gen:ultpalutena::ultken:
Blacktwins:ultpichu:
Venom:ultken::ultjoker:
BreaD:ultpalutena:
FSharp:ultken:
Sandstorm:ultryu::ultken:
Jayy:ultmetaknight::ultpokemontrainer:
Smokk:ultganondorf::ultwolf:
Z:ultpalutena::ultdiddy:
Fwed:ultfox:
SuperGirlKels:ultsonic:


Canada really loves their Ken and Palutena, do they? lol

Port Priority 5 also seems like a solid A tier:
Dabuz:ultolimar::ultrosalina:
Myran:ultolimar:
MVD:ultsnake:
Salem:ulthero: (Maybe?)
Strokaze:ultgreninja::ultroy::ultmario:
Dark WIzzy:ultmario:
Mr E:ultlucina:
Fatality:ultfalcon:
Maister:ultgnw:
Elegant:ultluigi:
yeti:ultmegaman:
Prodigy:ultmario:
Lemmon:ultjoker:
Pandarian:ultpokemontrainer:
Captain L:ultpikachu:
Big D:ulticeclimbers::ultkingdedede:
BestNess:ultness::ultpalutena:
Nicko:ultshulk:
LetsTickle:ultinkling:
Phantom:ultjoker::ultpalutena:
Konga:ultdk:
SilentRain:ultmario:
Locus:ultken::ultridley:
Comet:ultfox:
Snickeldorf:ultgnw:
Pokepen:ultike::ultcloud::substitute:


The only notable upset I found so far is at DreamHack Montreal 2019:
Gen:ultpalutena: 0-2 Xcal:ulttoonlink:
 
Last edited:

SwagGuy99

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 28, 2016
Messages
713
I’m starting to notice that banjo has to work really hard to get a kill.
Agreed. His most powerful kill moves are slow or punishable (f-smash, f-air, down-smash, side-b) and his fastest kill moves kill past 130% on most characters (up-smash, up-tilt) with his only reliable kill move under about 110% on most characters being back-throw near the ledge (which is actually really really strong).

If Banjo wasn't so heavy, his lack of kill power would be a pretty big issue but his survivability helps him survive long enough to land a kill most of the time.
 
Last edited:

bc1910

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 26, 2013
Messages
1,915
Location
London
NNID
bc1910
3DS FC
1478-6611-0182
Do Mii costumes really have that big of an impact on how much they're actually played?
Not usually, but I would say yes in this case.

A big part of why Miis are so underplayed is that they are just blank avatars with no character or personality. I'm pretty sure the Miis could be high tier (Gunner before the projectile shieldstun patch probably was, tbh) and still get virtually no use simply because they aren't attractive in a game where you can literally play as A-list gaming icons from like 25 different series. Also most Mii costumes are obscure side characters or niche picks and often don't look that great given they are in a "hat" and "clothes" pair that usually make it very clear you're still playing a Mii.

Enter Sans. Not only is Sans incredibly well known through a combination of memes and genuine popularity, the surprise factor of actually having him in Smash makes him all the more appealing. His Mii costume is easily the best given it covers the entire fighter and makes you forget you're even playing a Mii. Sans gives Mii Gunner the illusion of personality and this will be a big draw for people. This plays into the theory that Emblem Lord Emblem Lord talked about a while ago - most of us don't play Smash for the mechanics, we play because Nintendo. Smash is special because it throws so many famous gaming characters together and whilst we might stay for the gameplay it's definitely the concept and characters that draw you in. This now extends to third party characters like Sans. People aren't robots, emotions play a big part in choosing characters and the ability to play Sans even in this form will be enough for many players.

We can see this trend already. VGBC has been uploading matches where GimR is playing Sans among others and a Japanese player (Nest I believe) was also playing Sans at that tourney where Zackray got second with Banjo. The Mii Gunner discord has been renamed Mii Gunnertale, has a Sans role and accepted tons of new members as soon as he got announced. Whether Sans's popularity will last is another story but we can certainly expect a surge of Sans Gunners over the next few weeks at least.

---

On BK, I think they are really fun. They are far less annoying to fight than Joker or Hero (despite being a better competitive pick than Hero, I'd wager) and they feel like a base roster Smash character already. Dare I say it already feels like they've been in for years.

A lot of their moves seem to be budget versions of better moves on other characters. Usmash acting like Bowser's whirling fortress was touched upon, but they also have budget Mega Man pellets and a budget Palutena Nair. Whilst none of these moves are anywhere near as good as their "premium" versions, having worse versions of some of the best moves in the game certainly doesn't hurt. Nair in particular is much better than I gave it credit for at first; as soon as I accepted that it doesn't really lead to combos but started using it like Palu's anyway, I had a lot more success. Back throw is really strong by the way, it's definitely stronger than moves like Mario's Bthrow which it keeps getting compared to, its strength seems closer to Palu's.

Grenade egg seems like a pretty deep move which could be scary when optimised. Pellets are seen as pretty bad right now, but they can work for walling and cancelling out of them is very quick, so I think they have room for development. The standard neutral B egg is decent. Side B is pretty crazy as others have mentioned, it's definitely Banjo's most "DLC" move though it is balanced by the limited uses. This isn't a problem in neutral or advantage as you will rarely need more than five chances to use this move per stock before ending theirs, but it does hurt Banjo's recovery a bit.

My biggest gripe with BK overall is not knowing what to do in advantage. I feel like they have some decent tools for winning neutral but once they get their hit they are too slow in the air to chase effectively. Whilst they can chase under opponents using their excellent ground speed, their premier juggling tool in this situation is Uair which doesn't do much damage and will pretty much never kill. I need to find some ways to optimise their damage output and consistently land big moves like Fair and Side B; again I feel grenade egg will be crucial here.

My gut instinct is that Banjo & Kazooie are mid tier with high tier potential if their setups can be optimised. A welcome addition to the roster overall.
 

NotLiquid

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 14, 2014
Messages
1,341
Don't sleep on the synergy of the eggs. I mean, feel free to sleep on Breegull Blaster because that thing is bad, but the regular eggs are the fireballs Mario wishes he had.

It's a bit wild to go between Banjo and Piranha Plant and see how much privilege Banjo gets in terms of moves that can reliably invoke the frametrap situations they so desperately want. Specifically it's the amount of things he's allowed to do per interaction without compromising much of his mobility (not only owed to some generally solid frame data but the fact that he has three jumps to work with). Banjo's lack of a particularly congealing combo game is offset pretty violently by how much he can force approaches. He's like an anti-Mario. I've found that half of the time, picking up a grenade isn't even the optimal option in neutral; rather let it bounce to maintain coverage alongside the use of regular eggs that forces the opponent into an exploitable opening. Up smash might as well be a button for how much range, damage and speed it has, though even his other smash attacks find plenty of utility due to their relatively good startup/recovery, making him exceptionally good at whiff punishing with proper spacing. Up tilt is like a balanced version of Snake's up tilt (i.e still pretty decent). His throws, which aren't even that great, are still something you have to respect since half the time you'll find yourself shielding as a panic option when anticipating Wonderwing.

Down tilt is dumb. I can tell why the knockback angle was altered from the preview version (in the E3 trailer, the attack sent at an upward angle that looked extremely combo friendly); the distance it covers, the low-profile and the disjoint makes for one of the most vexing "get off of me" moves you can throw out, and I think it's one of his most underrated moves with how much he's allowed to get away with. Even his forward tilt offers a generous disjoint that's relatively easy to just throw out in succession. SHAC FAir and BAir allows Banjo at least some leeway for a move that can double for KO + pressure purposes, though specifically the former stands out. It's like a baby version of Peach/Ganon FAir.

Banjo capitalizes on his advantage almost entirely on his capacity to harass and condition people back into easy punish situations, which for that reason makes him one of those dubious characters who's gonna have to win neutral a lot; but I don't think it's actually that hard to do that with him because of how easy and flexible his buttons are (just about the only "mediocre" attack he has is DAir, though NAir is also debatable).
 
Last edited:

The_Bookworm

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 10, 2018
Messages
3,205
DreamHack Montreal Top 8

Winner's
Marss:ultzss: vs Xcal:ulttoonlink:
ESAM:ultpikachu: vs Blacktwins:ultpichu::ultroy:

Loser's
Sandstorm:ultken::ultryu: vs Jayy:ultpokemontrainer:
Gen:ultpalutena: vs SuperGirlKels:ultsonic:


Oh, and Jul has recently took a set off of Dabuz's:ulthero::ultrosalina: recently in a local event.


Not usually, but I would say yes in this case.

A big part of why Miis are so underplayed is that they are just blank avatars with no character or personality. I'm pretty sure the Miis could be high tier (Gunner before the projectile shieldstun patch probably was, tbh) and still get virtually no use simply because they aren't attractive in a game where you can literally play as A-list gaming icons from like 25 different series. Also most Mii costumes are obscure side characters or niche picks and often don't look that great given they are in a "hat" and "clothes" pair that usually make it very clear you're still playing a Mii.

Enter Sans. Not only is Sans incredibly well known through a combination of memes and genuine popularity, the surprise factor of actually having him in Smash makes him all the more appealing. His Mii costume is easily the best given it covers the entire fighter and makes you forget you're even playing a Mii. Sans gives Mii Gunner the illusion of personality and this will be a big draw for people. This plays into the theory that Emblem Lord Emblem Lord talked about a while ago - most of us don't play Smash for the mechanics, we play because Nintendo. Smash is special because it throws so many famous gaming characters together and whilst we might stay for the gameplay it's definitely the concept and characters that draw you in. This now extends to third party characters like Sans. People aren't robots, emotions play a big part in choosing characters and the ability to play Sans even in this form will be enough for many players.

We can see this trend already. VGBC has been uploading matches where GimR is playing Sans among others and a Japanese player (Nest I believe) was also playing Sans at that tourney where Zackray got second with Banjo. The Mii Gunner discord has been renamed Mii Gunnertale, has a Sans role and accepted tons of new members as soon as he got announced. Whether Sans's popularity will last is another story but we can certainly expect a surge of Sans Gunners over the next few weeks at least.
Fun fact about the Sans costume: it is the only Mii costume in the entire game that is a fully modeled character.
 

KirbySquad101

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 7, 2015
Messages
927
Dabuz :ultolimar::ultrosalina: vs LetsTickle :ultinkling:
Captain L :ultpikachu: vs Nicko :ultshulk:
yeti :ultmegaman: vs DAMN :ultryu::ultken:
Pandarian :ultpokemontrainer: vs Active :ultfalco:
Maister :ultgnw: vs Focus :ultken:
Big D :ulticeclimbers: vs Middy :ultpacman:
Elegant :ultluigi:vs H4Ds :ultpikachu:
Prodigy :ultmario: vs Deci :ultrobin:
MVD :ultsnake: vs Jory :ultyoshi:
Fatality :ultfalcon: vs pokepen :ultike::ultkirby:
Stroder :ultgreninja::ultmario::ultroy: vs Duwang :ultmario:
Myran :ultolimar: vs jaredisking :ultshulk:
Dark Wizzy :ultmario: vs Ouch?! :ultchrom:
BestNess :ultness: vs Lemmon :ultjoker:
Salem :ulthero: vs biggymouth :ultrob:
Mr E :ultlucina: vs Koop Tra$h God :ultbowserjr:

Notable Players in Losers Top 64:

Konga :ultdk:
Widget :ultgnw:
SilentRain :ultmario:
Dragoomba :ultrob:
Locus :ultken:
JTBreezy :ultincineroar:
QFex :ultdiddy:

:ultmario:,:ultshulk:, and :ultken: just seem to be everywhere recently, especially in the Top 64/32 areas lol; that said, the Top 64 of Port Priority 5 is looking very diverse: top tier threats are limited to just 1-2 major reps (MVD for :ultsnake: , Pandarian for :ultpokemontrainer:, Lemmon for :ultjoker:) and a lot of character specialists (pokepen :ultike:, Fatality :ultfalcon:, Big D :ulticeclimbers:, Active :ultfalco:, Deci :ultrobin:) are coming out of the woodwork.
 
Last edited:

The_Bookworm

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 10, 2018
Messages
3,205
Upsets at 2GG: Run it Back:

Darkshad:ultken: 3-2 Kome:ultshulk:
Katakiri:ultgunner: 3-1 Umeki:ultdaisy: (Out at 9th)


Top 8

Winner's
Mystearica:ultzelda: vs LeoN:ultbowser:
Darkshad:ultken::ultshulk: vs WaDi:ultrob:

Loser's
Tea:ultpacman: vs Katakiri:ultgunner: (Tea won 3-0)
Kome:ultshulk: vs Toast:ultyounglink: (Kome won 3-0)
 

meleebrawler

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 8, 2014
Messages
8,158
Location
Canada, Quebec
NNID
meleebrawler
3DS FC
2535-3888-1548
Banjo & Kazooie's Breegull Blaster's use is situational depending on the matchup (very annoying for some to deal with, trivial for others), but they have a key advantage over Megaman's pellets in that close hits pop enemies up in a prime juggle position. It can be part of a trifecta of tech-chase options he has, with down-tilt as the main starter. Breegull Blaster, dash attack and Wonderwing have increasing amounts of risk, but also reward.
 

Goodstyle_4

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 25, 2014
Messages
278
Mysterica really showing how degenerate Zelda is as a character, but if you're going to go up against the king of degeneracy :ultbowser:, you best not miss.
 

|RK|

Smash Marketer
Moderator
Joined
Jan 6, 2009
Messages
4,033
Location
Maryland
Bowser, forever a mid-tier, just won Run It Back

On a serious note, good stuff to LeoN and Tea. They went back and forth almost the whole time lol
 

NairWizard

Somewhere
Joined
Oct 28, 2014
Messages
1,935
Bowser, like Fox, is a character with extreme advantages and extreme disadvantages. Both Fox and Bowser have speed; tight, reactive neutral options; and devastating advantage states. Both Bowser and Fox get completely demolished in disadvantage. The difference between them is that Bowser gives up Fox's ability to contend with certain projectile characters in exchange for having 2-3 times the range and the ability to take stocks even when the opponent is shielding.

Am I saying that Bowser is better than Fox? Maybe not, on the axis of solo viability.

But if you're allowed to co-main or secondary (as you should be)?

Yes, Bowser is likely better than Fox.

I would expect, for example, average top player X who plays Bowser + [insert high-tier-decent-against-projectiles here] to place better than Light going solo Fox. Light could add a secondary such as Lucina and I would still expect the Bowser player to do better on average, simply because Bowser has more extreme advantages in the matchups where he does well - and there are a lot of those.

Bowser's good.
 

Lacrimosa

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 31, 2019
Messages
1,255
Location
Germany
Mysterica really showing how degenerate Zelda is as a character, but if you're going to go up against the king of degeneracy :ultbowser:, you best not miss.
And I'm sure she'll stay being treated as a bottom 10 character.
Whelp.
I mean, don't get me wrong, she has serious flaws that are holding her back (I think saying she'S high-tier at some point is an overexaggeration) quite a bit but she's not as bad as a bottom 10 character.
And LeoN is really good. Looking forward to that set since it was way past midnight in Europe when it happened.
 
Last edited:

Rhus

We're going top speed!
Joined
May 17, 2014
Messages
529
Location
Canada, MB
I still think :ultfox: is a top tier...he is a little bit on a decline but still insane to me.
He might be - but he lacks a lot of consistency. In the case of a lot of the other top tiers, they are more well rounded and rely less on pure mental games and consistent vortexing than Fox. Fox has some great combos, but a lot of his neutral hit conversions lead to vortexes rather than true combos like we see from Peach's Dtilt combos and Joker just Uthrow>Uairing you till 60-70.

Fox has to put himself in a lot of danger to continue his conversions. While his advantage is arguably one of the best in the game because he is competing to be the overall fastest character in the game, Fox's follow ups are fully dependent on your ability to read you opponent. His main kill confirm, Nair > Usmash has a narrow % window of success, and pushing them out of that range can be very detrimental to sealing stocks.

I would agree that Fox is top tier material, but his window of his execution is so tight and difficult. I think Fox's huge skill ceiling is catching up to him.
 

Lacrimosa

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 31, 2019
Messages
1,255
Location
Germany
Ok, I don't think I'm capable of analyzing the Tea vs. Mystearica match but I feel like Tea has no real knowledge of fighting Zelda. I think Myst noticed that pretty early on which is why he used Farore so much. Tea adjusted to that but even then he got hit by a lot of those so-called wi-fi tactics. Myst also used a lot of Nayru to land on Pac-Mans shield and it shield-poked on some occassions. So it's really good when the shield is weakened a bit.
What I liked about Myst's play is the phantom set-up on the platforms on PS2 and also the AC-stages. It prevented Pac-Man from jumping from ledge or to recover high and so he had to wait it out and he got hit by some dTilts. One of them also lead to a fAir. I think that shows that her ledgetrapping/edgeguarding is pretty solid and one of the better in the game. Phantom cancels a lot of options when set-up properly.

One thing that Tea also fell victim of is Zelda's OoS bAir/fAir and upB OoS also ended one game. The prior is still a frame 9 option, but it's really dangerous if you don't space it properly. I guess saying that her OoS game is bad should be stuffed (looking at Zero's tierlist for example).

Anyway, it was a good showing but I think that Tea lacked some MU knowledge that Mystearica seemingly has. However, even so: Defeating a PGR ranked player is really good. Myst also outplaced Goblin in one tournament, although he didn't fight him. I think she's fairly viable after all (but pls her nAir, like seriously).
 

Ziodyne 21

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 11, 2016
Messages
1,681
I say Bowser can be low-high tier now. Yes he still has the typical pitfalls and lousy disadvantage state of a super-heavyweight, and he really struggle if trapped around the ledge. But man if the Koopa King does not have loads going for him anyway.

But man maybe its just a testsmament to LeoN skill , but he has regularly steamrolled though many MU's thought to be horrible for Bowser.
:ultpeach::ultpalutena::ultzss::ultolimar::ultrob: to name just name some
 
Last edited:

The_Bookworm

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 10, 2018
Messages
3,205
2GG: Run it Back

1st: LeoN:ultbowser:
2nd: Tea:ultpacman:
3rd: WaDi:ultrob:
4th: Kome:ultshulk:
5th: Mystearica:ultzelda:
5th: Darkshad:ultken::ultshulk:
7th: Toast:ultyounglink:
7th: Katakiri:ultgunner:
 

|RK|

Smash Marketer
Moderator
Joined
Jan 6, 2009
Messages
4,033
Location
Maryland
I say Bowser can be low-high tier now. Yes he still has the typical pitfalls and lousy disadvantage state of a super-heavyweight, and he really struggle if trapped around the ledge. But man if the Koopa King does not have loads going for him anyway.

But man maybe its just a testsmament to LeoN skill , but he has regularly steamrolled though many MU's thought to be horrible for Bowser.
:ultpeach::ultpalutena::ultzss::ultolimar::ultrob: to name just name some
I'll also add that Nairo and Dabuz, in winning, made it a point not to use Palu or Olimar. Instead, they used Robin and Rosalina, respectively.
 

SwagGuy99

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 28, 2016
Messages
713
Bowser, like Fox, is a character with extreme advantages and extreme disadvantages. Both Fox and Bowser have speed; tight, reactive neutral options; and devastating advantage states. Both Bowser and Fox get completely demolished in disadvantage. The difference between them is that Bowser gives up Fox's ability to contend with certain projectile characters in exchange for having 2-3 times the range and the ability to take stocks even when the opponent is shielding.

Am I saying that Bowser is better than Fox? Maybe not, on the axis of solo viability.

But if you're allowed to co-main or secondary (as you should be)?

Yes, Bowser is likely better than Fox.

I would expect, for example, average top player X who plays Bowser + [insert high-tier-decent-against-projectiles here] to place better than Light going solo Fox. Light could add a secondary such as Lucina and I would still expect the Bowser player to do better on average, simply because Bowser has more extreme advantages in the matchups where he does well - and there are a lot of those.

Bowser's good.
You know, Player-1 (High-level Diddy main, don't know much about him but yeah) made a tier list about a month ago and he placed Bowser as the #1 character in the game. Unreasonable? Probably, but it does make me think that maybe we (as a community) have been being a bit overly-cautious with our veiws on Bowser just due to how bad he was in previous games.

Do I ever see him as the being the best character in the game? That's a hard no, but if Bowser's results keep climbing at the steady rate they currently are, we could have our first Top Tier super-heavyweight since Brawl.
 

Ark of Silence101

Smash Master
Joined
May 5, 2015
Messages
3,028
Location
Tijuana, Mexico
NNID
ArkofSilence
Switch FC
8431-6297-7122
You know, Player-1 (High-level Diddy main, don't know much about him but yeah) made a tier list about a month ago and he placed Bowser as the #1 character in the game. Unreasonable? Probably, but it does make me think that maybe we (as a community) have been being a bit overly-cautious with our veiws on Bowser just due to how bad he was in previous games.

Do I ever see him as the being the best character in the game? That's a hard no, but if Bowser's results keep climbing at the steady rate they currently are, we could have our first Top Tier super-heavyweight since Brawl.
Was Snake considered a super heavy in Brawl? I remember him being heavier than his build suggested but was he a super heavy?
 

Bobert

"...And His Music Was Electric"
Joined
Sep 11, 2012
Messages
568
Location
North Carolina
NNID
MetallicBlur
Switch FC
SW-1415-6753-4608
Was Snake considered a super heavy in Brawl? I remember him being heavier than his build suggested but was he a super heavy?
Snake was the third heaviest character in Brawl. Even heavier than Dedede, Charizard, and Ganondorf.
 
Last edited:

The_Bookworm

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 10, 2018
Messages
3,205
DreamHack Montreal 2019 (B Tier)

1st: Marss:ultzss:
2nd: ESAM:ultpikachu:
3rd: Gen:ultpalutena:
4th: Blacktwins:ultpichu::ultroy:
5th: Xcal:ulttoonlink:
5th: Sandstorm:ultken::ultryu:
7th: SuperGirlKels:ultsonic::ultisabelle:
7th: Jayy:ultpokemontrainer::ultmetaknight:
9th: Dunston:ultpikachu:
9th: Z:ultpalutena:
9th: Stas:ultwiifittrainerm:
9th: Venom:ultken:
13th: Sensuell:ultken:
13th: LA GRIMACE:ultinkling:
13th: FSharp:ultken:
13th: Hoe:ultmetaknight:


So many Ken players. lol


Was Snake considered a super heavy in Brawl? I remember him being heavier than his build suggested but was he a super heavy?
During the development of Brawl, Snake was intended to be a lot bigger than he was in the end. However, towards the end of Brawl the devs decided to decrease his size to be more similar to other human-like characters (i.e. Link, ZSS, Marth, etc.).

However, some aspects of Snake was kept the same by accident. That is why Snake ended up being the 3rd heaviest character in Brawl, and has disproportionately large hitboxes in quite a bit of his moves (hello up tilt), despite the size decrease.

Snake's return in Ultimate allowed the developers to correct the mistakes left by the last-minute change in Brawl, which is why Snake is noticeably lighter (now being 17th-19th heaviest character) and his hitboxes are more streamlined.
 
Top Bottom