Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Rizen]

His edgeguarding might be the best in the game. Z-air, f-air, b-air (sweetspotted or sour-spotted), d-air, n-air, PSI Magnet, PK Thunder, PK Freeze, and PK Fire are all great edgeguarding options and allow Lucas to edgeguard safely from a distance while still having good options to edgeguard at close range as well.

I agree has some great edge guarding but would like a word with you...

 

[NairWizard]

When Ultimate dropped, I asked Shaya what his choice for "hidden top tier" contender would be. He said Pacman. I, on the other hand, threw my lot in with Bowser. I strongly believe that Bowser is top ~10, and now that I have some (video) evidence for it, I'll make the case.

Bowser's buffs going from 4 to Ultimate gave him some of the best hitbox coverage that smash has ever seen.

In smash 4, Bowser had to play a very grounded neutral game with jab, grab, and shield as mainstays. Nairo, ever the contrarian, took a weird approach where he would jump a lot in neutral, even with Bowser's f8 jumpsquat. Nairo claimed that he did this in case someone tried to run under him, and then he could catch them with a n-air.

This theory was somewhat sound--aerial Bowser has some of the most beautiful hitboxes: f-air swings in a sword arc, n-air covers his whole (huge) body with multiple hits, and b-air is stronger and much faster than your typical f-smash. Not only that, but while in the air, Bowser can still drop down and grab at any time. Being in the air was in some situations better for Bowser than being on the ground because if Bowser was in the air, then he didn't have to deal with 8 frames of jumpsquat to access some of his strongest moves.

In comes Ultimate, with its lavish promises of tax cuts and affordable healthcare. Suddenly, Bowser has a frame 3 jumpsquat. An aerial state is now easy to access for Bowser. All it takes is 3 frames, and Bowser has all of those beautiful options ready--a full-body n-air, f-air that hits below and behind him, and an f-smash masquerading as a b-air. The options themselves were even buffed, with n-air comboing into b-air. Bowser's neutral improved more than any other single character's from the jumpsquat changes. Being able to jump so easily allows Bowser access to a host of great moves.

But it gets even better. His initial dash was buffed--it went from #41 in the game to tied for 5th. This made Bowser really fast. To compare, Bowser has the same air speed as Sheik and faster initial dash (granted that his aerial acceleration lags behind, which is bad in disadvantage, but still--consider that).

So now not only can Bowser be in the air whenever he wants with huge hitboxes, he can also be wherever he wants on the ground just before he jumps. This means that he can cover every variety of airdodge, every kind of ledge jump, and every platform arrangement on every stage.

But it gets even better still, because Bowser's specials give him insane hitboxes too. Fire Breath deals obscene damage and has more range than swords; Whirling Fortress is a moving full-body f6 attack that you can use out of shield (consider the implications of that description for a moment); and Flying Slam, oh Flying Slam--what can you say about an f6 command grab that kills (and/or deals 22%!!)?

Add all that up and what you have is a monster who can cover just about every landing, ledge get up, and defensive option in the game with ease. No matter where you are, Bowser will find you, and Bowser will hunt you down. He's got an option-rich neutral and an advantage state that is easily one of the best in the game.

For a simple example, let's look at this clip from LeoN vs. Cosmos. https://youtu.be/sIFxblZeTMs?t=219

Check out this timestamp, where Inkling lands on the Smashville platform after Bowser lands an up-b. Watch how Bowser jumps up to the platform, dashes, drops back down, dashes, and comes back and side-bs Inkling. Literally every option was covered, except standing on the platform and just holding shield (and even that might have gotten caught by an aerial side-b), just because Bowser moves so fluidly from state to state (ground position A to ground position B, and then ground to air, and air to ground), and has huge hitboxes to cover him as he's moving.

This character is completely bonkers insane, even considering his disadvantage state (which is arguably no worse than Fox's!). If he's not top tier, he's easily one of the best high tiers.

 

[Megamang]

And he survives inkling's bnb kill setup around 160%... its honestly good his recovery isn't better, because you kinda need to gimp him every once in a while or you'll just fall behind in an 'even' game.


To me the determining factor is whether good players will start to 'flowchart' him like they did in 4. He looked good until the top level, where he would lose neutral once and then every option was covered, hed maybe get a few 50/50 chances to return (more like 30/70 where you had one yolo option that they may not have covered and simply abuse the rest). But I think a lot of that relied on trapping him on the ground because his jump was so slow once he landed, and really you could presume he was probably going to try and pivot grab you and you could challenge that out or outframe it... not so much anymore.

The only obvious weakness to me seems to be his recovery, and honestly that isn't so glaring because everyone has some issues in disadvantage now which is actually pretty equalizing for the heavies, everyone gets to experience losing neutral once and losing that stock and bowser can come equalize that stock with a good opening anyways.

 

[TheBeastHimself]

I do agree that Bowser is definitely going to end up being one of the top characters. All the heavyweights are actually pretty viable in this game, compared to other games where picking someone like Ganondorf was asking to lose unless you were a god at the game. Bowser can still be a punching bag like all heavyweights still are, but he might be the best heavyweight in the game.

 

[Bobert]

I do agree that Bowser is definitely going to end up being one of the top characters. All the heavyweights are actually pretty viable in this game, compared to other games where picking someone like Ganondorf was asking to lose unless you were a god at the game. Bowser can still be a punching bag like all heavyweights still are, but he might be the best heavyweight in the game.

Bowser is definitely the best heavyweight. There really isn't any contest. The other heavyweights except for Dedede(and arguably DK) are still pretty bad. K.Rool, Ganondorf and Incineroar are definitely a few buffs from being viable, but they just aren't right now. Ganondorf and Incineroar suffer badly from dying at extremely low %s(how ironic..)because of their bad recoveries, and they struggle a lot to get in on their opponents. A heavyweight that can't take punishment isn't a good one. K.Rool's frame data and OoS is also really terrible and it holds him back too much, and his only get off of me option can put him in a shield break state.

 

[Megamang]

In a game populated with tons of safe and quick landing aerials, Krool just doesn't seem very scary. Sure there is classic heavyweight stuff like getting read and exploding and not being able to kill him, but he doesn't offer much that other heavies don't do better. Belly armor is both useful and a liability, you get cracked and suddenly you don't want to use the wrong move and have it break on you on a move that would have, at worst, just swatted you away.


The crown and succ aren't so scary now that we are considerably better as a community. Sure it zones alright, but its ROB syndrome *200 where if the enemy gets the crown they can probably make it work against you a bit better than much you can put together. I've seen some setups on return crown but you have so much time to get away from that situation that most of the time it is on you if you get crown'd into a strong move.

Having a good recovery isn't a bad thing, but the lack of quick swatting aerials means you kinda stay in disadvantage anyways...I find him much easier to juggle than bowser, who has both landing aerials and a good arcing hitbox.

A bowser fair would do him wonders, but you could say that about almost the entire cast... if not the entire cast. I can't think of anyone who wouldn't love the giant claw, tbh, greninja would be a menace with a move like that.

 

[TheBeastHimself]

I agree has some great edge guarding but would like a word with you...

It's a shame Lucas can absorb most of Snake's moveset for health lmaooo

 

[The_Bookworm]

Here is our updated Orion Stats for today: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1AJs-mj5TTdkmkl7nhj4twJymVPTLTUdT0MBToL1cxDs/htmlview


Biggest Winners of the Weekend:
Thanks to MVD and Salem's performance at Port Priority 5, Snake has overtaken to be 3rd in the Orion Stats.
Thanks to Dark Wizzy and Prodigy's performance at Port Priority 5, Mario has overtaken to be 7th in the Orion Stats.
Thanks to Kome's performance at 2GG: Run it Back and Nicko's performance at Port Priority 5, Shulk is at 23rd place.
Ken was everywhere this weekend. This is reflected in him rising to 28th in the stats, and is much higher than , who sits at 51st with .
Both magic wielders gets a nice boost this weekend after Salem's and Deci's performance, respectively, at Port Priority 5. Hero currently sits at 37th and Robin at 39th. Robin has definitely come a long way the past month.
Speaking of magic wielders, Zelda gets a big boost this weekend thanks to Mystearica's performance at 2GG: Run it Back, with Zelda zipping up to 42nd.


Errors in Ranking Display:
Palutena has her score erroneously put as "2244.75". They probably accidentally added an extra "2" into the score, but she remains comfortably in 5th place regardless.
PPlant currently sits at 50th place with a score of "28.5". However, it is ranked above , who has a score of "29". Either they accidentally put PPlant over the two, or the intended score for PPlant is "29.5" but they incorrectly displayed that.


Other Notable Things:
Bowser currently sits at 22nd place. Despite LeoN's performance at 2GG: Run it Back, it didn't really jump in placement that much due to ESAM's performance at DreamHack Montreal 2019. Pikachu sits above Bowser at 21st place.
These two superstars from season 1 got a small boost again this weekend, with Pichu now at 35th place with , and Ike at 46th place.
Duck Hunt is kind of being put in the back burner this weekend, dropping to 32nd place, notably 1 place below fellow zoner .
Speaking of Links, while YLink is at 31st place, the other two Links dropped out of top 40. TLink is at 41st, and Link is tied with at 43rd.
This duo debuts at the Orion Stats with 0 points. Considering that none of the major events this weekend allowed them in tournaments due to their recent release, I am not too surprised.

 

[SwagGuy99]

Here is our updated Orion Stats for today: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1AJs-mj5TTdkmkl7nhj4twJymVPTLTUdT0MBToL1cxDs/htmlview


Biggest Winners of the Weekend:
Thanks to MVD and Salem's performance at Port Priority 5, Snake has overtaken to be 3rd in the Orion Stats.
Thanks to Dark Wizzy and Prodigy's performance at Port Priority 5, Mario has overtaken to be 7th in the Orion Stats.
Thanks to Kome's performance at 2GG: Run it Back and Nicko's performance at Port Priority 5, Shulk is at 23rd place.
Ken was everywhere this weekend. This is reflected in him rising to 28th in the stats, and is much higher than , who sits at 51st with .
Both magic wielders gets a nice boost this weekend after Salem's and Deci's performance, respectively, at Port Priority 5. Hero currently sits at 37th and Robin at 39th. Robin has definitely come a long way the past month.
Speaking of magic wielders, Zelda gets a big boost this weekend thanks to Mystearica's performance at 2GG: Run it Back, with Zelda zipping up to 42nd.


Errors in Ranking Display:
Palutena has her score erroneously put as "2244.75". They probably accidentally added an extra "2" into the score, but she remains comfortably in 5th place regardless.
PPlant currently sits at 50th place with a score of "28.5". However, it is ranked above , who has a score of "29". Either they accidentally put PPlant over the two, or the intended score for PPlant is "29.5" but they incorrectly displayed that.


Other Notable Things:
Bowser currently sits at 22nd place. Despite LeoN's performance at 2GG: Run it Back, it didn't really jump in placement that much due to ESAM's performance at DreamHack Montreal 2019. Pikachu sits above Bowser at 21st place.
These two superstars from season 1 got a small boost again this weekend, with Pichu now at 35th place with , and Ike at 46th place.
Duck Hunt is kind of being put in the back burner this weekend, dropping to 32nd place, notably 1 place below fellow zoner .
Speaking of Links, while YLink is at 31st place, the other two Links dropped out of top 40. TLink is at 41st, and Link is tied with at 43rd.
This duo debuts at the Orion Stats with 0 points. Considering that none of the major events this weekend allowed them in tournaments due to their recent release, I am not too surprised.

Also, Mewtwo got some results from somewhere with Banjo having taken over the bottom spot.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Also, Mewtwo got some results from somewhere with Banjo having taken over the bottom spot.

That is actually different from the last time I saw it. That is nice to see Mewtwo finally get points.

I can also see that they fixed the Palutena score typo as well. They didn't fix the PPlant one though ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ .

 

[Nobie]

Bowser's weakness, aside from disadvantage, is that once he picks an option he has to commit to it all the way. Side B is fast but laggy as heck. Every time he jumps, he basically has to follow through. Etc.

What I find odd is that few top DKs from Smash 4 seem to have transitioned over to Bowser, even though both fill the role of mobile superheavy grapplers. I wonder why more aren't making that switch

 

[Anomika]

There's probably something about being able to use cargo throws that Donkey Kong mains love and don't want to switch to another fighter because no one else has this "gimmick", character loyalty, and staying hopeful for buffs. Seriously Spinning Kong is bad in this game. Buff DK

 

[Lacrimosa]

Here is our updated Orion Stats for today: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1AJs-mj5TTdkmkl7nhj4twJymVPTLTUdT0MBToL1cxDs/htmlview


Biggest Winners of the Weekend:
Thanks to MVD and Salem's performance at Port Priority 5, Snake has overtaken to be 3rd in the Orion Stats.
Thanks to Dark Wizzy and Prodigy's performance at Port Priority 5, Mario has overtaken to be 7th in the Orion Stats.
Thanks to Kome's performance at 2GG: Run it Back and Nicko's performance at Port Priority 5, Shulk is at 23rd place.
Ken was everywhere this weekend. This is reflected in him rising to 28th in the stats, and is much higher than , who sits at 51st with .
Both magic wielders gets a nice boost this weekend after Salem's and Deci's performance, respectively, at Port Priority 5. Hero currently sits at 37th and Robin at 39th. Robin has definitely come a long way the past month.
Speaking of magic wielders, Zelda gets a big boost this weekend thanks to Mystearica's performance at 2GG: Run it Back, with Zelda zipping up to 42nd.


Errors in Ranking Display:
Palutena has her score erroneously put as "2244.75". They probably accidentally added an extra "2" into the score, but she remains comfortably in 5th place regardless.
PPlant currently sits at 50th place with a score of "28.5". However, it is ranked above , who has a score of "29". Either they accidentally put PPlant over the two, or the intended score for PPlant is "29.5" but they incorrectly displayed that.


Other Notable Things:
Bowser currently sits at 22nd place. Despite LeoN's performance at 2GG: Run it Back, it didn't really jump in placement that much due to ESAM's performance at DreamHack Montreal 2019. Pikachu sits above Bowser at 21st place.
These two superstars from season 1 got a small boost again this weekend, with Pichu now at 35th place with , and Ike at 46th place.
Duck Hunt is kind of being put in the back burner this weekend, dropping to 32nd place, notably 1 place below fellow zoner .
Speaking of Links, while YLink is at 31st place, the other two Links dropped out of top 40. TLink is at 41st, and Link is tied with at 43rd.
This duo debuts at the Orion Stats with 0 points. Considering that none of the major events this weekend allowed them in tournaments due to their recent release, I am not too surprised.

Pretty sure Zelda will fall off after this weekend as I can't spot neither Myst nor Ven in a tournament. Still, Myst's showing at Run it Back was very good. Looking forward to more.

 

[Rizen]

Most of the videos I've seen try to play as a rounded character like Mario but their real strength lies as a zoner. Between b blaster and egg grenades, BK have a strong mid range game. BK can attack while moving both backward and forward with eggs that have annoying bouncy properties. This gives them an exelent keep away game. BK can wrack up a lot of damage without touching the opponent up close. Add in thier extra jump, upB that doesn't cause free falling and wonder wing as a punishing burst option and they're a dangerous duo. They have a lot of mid range movement and mixup potential.

On top of this BK have a hard to intercept recovery, if not long distance, and pretty good disjoint on normal attacks. Bthrow kills so you have to respect their grab. Uair's fast, disjointed and chains into its self. I predict once they get going BK will end up being good characters. It might take a while for people to get the hang of them.

 

[TheBeastHimself]

Back again to ask about my boy

Is there any particular reason he's always kind of neglected by the community? In Brawl he wasn't too good so it's understandable why he's kind of forgotten, but in Smash 4 he's really good, and I'd argue he's even better in Ultimate with all the buffs he received. But it always seems like nobody wants to try them out, and if they do, they conclude too quickly that he's average at best and lose interest. Sure, he might be average at best, but he's got a ton of untapped potential. It just seems like every time a new game comes out, the mentality is "oh yeah, Lucas. He's there..." I guess he's just an unpopular character!

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Lucas is from a niche franchise (As mother fans you do have to realize that Mother despite the cult following it has is not a popular franchise and is a completed series) who’s game has never officially been released outside of a late stage GBA game in Japan. It’s totally understandable that people don’t flock to a rather niche character. Characters like Falcon wouldn’t be nearly as popular due to the same factors if he wasn’t just fun in general and one of the thing you think about when you think Smash in general.

Also as you have said it yourself he’s rather average with some good traits but nothing you can’t get on better overall characters so the incentive to use him is even smaller. Unless he becomes a strong character he’s not going to be played much at all aside from people who like Mother/Mother 3 and the few who genuinely just enjoy his playstyle.

 

[Das Koopa]

If my math is correct, Corrin currently has the worst numerical results of any character in the game this year, based on my OrionStats page. Now, as a sword enthusiast myself (since the last, highly cursed game,) I do not actually believe Corrin is the worst character. Kirby and King K. Rool (the latter of which I mained for a month and placed 25th/300+ entrants at an online event) are significantly worse based on my opinion. However, her usage rates are exceedingly low, really only outpaced by Marth in rarity. She was often a fringe top 10 character in Smash 4, so her absolute collapse in results seems to be a result of her likely being perceived as "not worth the effort", similar to Marth.

It's worth examination. I am much worse at this game competitively than I was at Smash 4, so I can only surmise that Corrin's best tools are merely outclassed by generalist swordies like Lucina, and nothing she has is "special" ala Ike, a more powerful swordie who exchanges recovery & consistency for raw power/reliably kill confirms off his absurd Nair. Like Marth, this simply places Corrin as an undesirable.

For my own biases: I don't care for Corrin. Her nair is obviously good but I'm not a fan of her toolkit as it feels inferior to Lucina/Marth's, and her projectile/pin/nair do not adequately compensate. I expect eventual success from Corrin mains but for me, her Nair doesn't replace first hit nair combos possible with Lucina/Marth, who juggle easily with grounded moves like uptilt, arguably the best uptilts in the game.

Basically I don't think Corrin's issues are exclusively related to a lack of dedicated franchise interest. Franchise interest can inspire people to main or even emulate their favorite characters (see Bayonetta,) but it's common to see people pick characters based on their toolset, and nobody is picking Corrin on either basis, leading me to believe that while her lack of pick rate isn't a franchise issue (as Fates is unpopular, so is Corrin) but also an issue with her toolkit being inferior.

I don't have much to add, but I do think Corrin has potential to be mid-tier if an existing main ala Shadic or Ke-ya were to break out, and smarter people than I who are/were seeders for PG Stats seem to agree she's "fine" - but it may be a long time until we see results, as more people are attracted to the simplicity and reliability of other swordie kits. I know as a long-time swordie/disjoint player that this represents how I feel - I'd much sooner play a capable zoner ala TL or generalists like Lucina/Marth/Cloud or even a unorthodox disjoint character like Ridley before Corrin.

Edit: One addendum sharing thoughts as a person who propagates results - I think results are important, but need to be contextualized. For the Lucas example above & others, a lack of peaks needs to be examined as most characters have at least placed Top 16 at majors or supermajors. For Lucas, I think a lack of results can be related to a lack of international interest, as was historically the case in Brawl/Smash 4, as well as the retirement of Taiheita, by far the best Lucas in Smash history. For other characters, it often depends. My first question when a character lacks results is if they've had a historical main. If so, and they're not active, you usually have an answers as to why results are scarce. If they don't exist and results are poor, the next question is - why don't they attract mains.

I think Kirby probably has the worst practical results & potential shown so far, despite having kind-of-acceptable numbers. He has the worst peak of any character and has been relegated below viability since 64, so my reasoning is that developers initially nerfed him in Melee as a response to his absurd power in 64, and never adequately corrected this is subsequent titles, resulting in an undesirable character that is very easy to camp due to poor approach and mobility.

 

[Anomika]

That's definitely an issue for unpopular fighters with no results. If a fighter is unpopular but has good results then it's a general consensus that they're a viable fighter, while it's hard to tell for those that don't have results, which has two outcomes, being really unviable or being somewhat viable but the players that could bring the most potential doesn't use them.

Though only time will tell. I still think Corrin has some potential and if they still lack in results then I'll stay optimistic for buffs.

Meanwhile, it seems that VoiD and Mr R are trying to bring back Sheik into their roster even with a lack of recent changes to her. I would like to see more of this stealthy ninja in action

 

[Heracr055]

Corrin is severely lacking in many departments. I'll go over a few in order to help shed some light on this character.
Let's examine what she's supposed to be good at: comboing and juggling. While nair, fair and uair are great combo starters, it becomes increasingly difficult keeping yoir opponents in the air. Why is this? Simple-Corrin does not have the mobility to keep the pressure on her opponents. This frequent failure to keep foes in disadvantage force a gameplan where Corrin will have to repeatedly return to neutral after spitting a foe out of her blender. Compare this to swordies such as Marcina and Chroy, whose speed, grounded buttons and aerials make it quite simple to combo foes or at the very least keep them in disadvantage.
Now we look at her weaknesses. Lack of mobility was already mentioned so I will leave it at that. The other huge, HUGE issue that Corrin has is that she has a hard time killing. This is mostly due to her not having many kill setups, making it increasingly likely that she will have to fish for raw KO options. Her safest options for this are up throw (which should start killing starting at 130% and upward on lighter characters) and ftilt (this starts killing around 110% near the ledge, and is pretty quick with decent cooldown so it's not the worst option). Her other kill options are uair, bair, her smash attacks and Pin. Uair in this game has issues killing so it's tough securing stocks with this move, especially due to the aformentioned mobility reducing the success rate of catching someone with it near the top blastzone. Bair is pretty strong and a good tool for getting KOs, but it's hard edgeguarding with this move. What's more is that bair is the only aerial that will push offstage foes towards the blastzone, while her fair won't send them anywhere near it (making killing with edgeguards exceedingly tough with her). Her Smash attacks are limited in their use: usmash has a very limited hitbox above her, dsmash lacks the oomph needed to secure stocks, and fsmash can be blocked fairly easily and get punished due to the high cooldown on the move (spacing at the tip is even punishable in this way by most of the cast). And Pin's issues (especially compared to Smash 4's iteration) have been discussed at length; it's not as safe nor as powerful as it once was, and is not the overcentralizing tool that would invalidate matchups as it had before. All of these issues combine to make Corrin a character who will struggle to kill while not even excelling in the role she was designed for.
Corrin's buffs (except the improved up B range) are not helping her much, and it will take something drastic (increased mobility, uair knockback buffs, a safer Pin, etc) in order for her to actually be worth using.

Edit: DFS uncharged/slightly charged hit+medium charge bite can kill pretty well, but you really have to make a read to get it or get lucky hitting it against a recovering foe.
For what it's worth I think she is a bottom 10 character as things stand now, and I don't see it getting any better anytime soon with 5.0 not introducing any changes for her

 

[TheBeastHimself]

Lucas is from a niche franchise (As mother fans you do have to realize that Mother despite the cult following it has is not a popular franchise and is a completed series) who’s game has never officially been released outside of a late stage GBA game in Japan. It’s totally understandable that people don’t flock to a rather niche character. Characters like Falcon wouldn’t be nearly as popular due to the same factors if he wasn’t just fun in general and one of the thing you think about when you think Smash in general.

Also as you have said it yourself he’s rather average with some good traits but nothing you can’t get on better overall characters so the incentive to use him is even smaller. Unless he becomes a strong character he’s not going to be played much at all aside from people who like Mother/Mother 3 and the few who genuinely just enjoy his playstyle.

When you word it like that, I'm actually cool with him being unpopular. It makes him more special to me and it'll be more satisfying to kick ass with a niche nobody than someone everyone and their mom mains. Imagine seeing Lucas of all characters win a big tournament compared to usual top tier characters? This has given me an incentive to get better as him, thanks!

 

[KakuCP9]

It's almost like nerfing Corrin's specials in favor of making them more 'well rounded' (which causes them not only to be undertuned af, but also fall further under the design space of characters like Marthcina) wasn't a good idea.

 

[Lacrimosa]

That's definitely an issue for unpopular fighters with no results. If a fighter is unpopular but has good results then it's a general consensus that they're a viable fighter, while it's hard to tell for those that don't have results, which has two outcomes, being really unviable or being somewhat viable but the players that could bring the most potential doesn't use them.

Though only time will tell. I still think Corrin has some potential and if they still lack in results then I'll stay optimistic for buffs.

Meanwhile, it seems that VoiD and Mr R are trying to bring back Sheik into their roster even with a lack of recent changes to her. I would like to see more of this stealthy ninja in action

Their 1st results with her aren't all that impressive.
Void getting 3rd at his SoCal local and Mr. R only 9th at a Japanese local.
For people that played her to death in S4 and dominated the scene, these results are really underwhelming.

But we'll see. I don't expect much, though.

 

[Thinkaman]

I think the Marth comparison is apt--there is absolutely a strong substitution effect going on with Corrin, the likes of which does not apply to Kirby.

Pin and Uber-Counter were pretty dumb in 4 (if you've ever seen sub-90-percentile Corrin play, it's obnoxious), but bringing them down to planet earth left him/her lacking a tiny bit.

That said, I don't think the solution is just to crank up the speed and make Corrin even closer to Marcina, nor is much adjustment necessary.

Sheik isn't a mystery: She can't kill. And not like "Haha Sheik can't kill." I mean, really. She lost her uair setups and Bouncing Fish got slapped. She really is still an amazing character, except that she can't kill until percent-levels higher than the rest of the roster. And like, dude, at that point just play Joker.

 

[blackghost]

shiek issue is the killing and damage. when you combine both of these it just turns into a masisive uphill battle. considering in 1v1 all characters recieve a 1.3 (or roughly) increase in damage and shiek STILL cannot do combos for more than 35 to 40 damage thats a problem. 30 percent for a mid tier combo character is meh. for shiek its literally almost optimal. ken can accidentally do 30 damage. an incomplete strong from peach does 40 percent.

as for why people dont play lucas i don't think its franchise recognition or anything like that if the character was strong or perceived as fun people would play him. but he isnt seen that way. a recovery that takes practice, an unorthodox combo game, and an easier option is readily available.

 

[Anomika]

It makes me wonder if VoiD is serious about Sheik being fine and not needing further buffs. He even (probably ironically) said how Sheik doesn't need to kill until extremely high percentages since she can keep vortexing the opponents and then a stray move should KO eventually (She KOd Banjo at around 270%).

That said, it's still difficult to tell how much she'll improve over time even with a few "bursts" of decent results.

 

[Lacrimosa]

shiek issue is the killing and damage. when you combine both of these it just turns into a masisive uphill battle. considering in 1v1 all characters recieve a 1.3 (or roughly) increase in damage and shiek STILL cannot do combos for more than 35 to 40 damage thats a problem. 30 percent for a mid tier combo character is meh. for shiek its literally almost optimal. ken can accidentally do 30 damage. an incomplete strong from peach does 40 percent.

as for why people dont play lucas i don't think its franchise recognition or anything like that if the character was strong or perceived as fun people would play him. but he isnt seen that way. a recovery that takes practice, an unorthodox combo game, and an easier option is readily available.

Ness seems to do everything what Lucas does except better or so it seems. I'm not entirely sold on that, though.
PK Flash for recovery mix-ups (look at FOW), PK fire keeps you trapped and leads to further follow-ups, combo-throws, upB can juggle, bThrow actually kills.
Ness is just easier to use and a combo character while Lucas, more or less like Zelda, hits you with single, but strong hit. Most players like the former character archetype much better. Ness is just much easier to use and it seems easier to "git gud" with Ness. So, why use Lucas then...?

 

[The_Bookworm]

Despite the optimism in the air in this thread, I am not really feeling it for .

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In 's case, it is more than just having bottom 5 KO options in the game: she also suffers from being a near featherweight character with poor damage output, WHILE also having poor KO power.

When I mean she is light, I mean it. Only 76 units of weight, making her the 6th lightest character in the game. Having access to one of the better frame datas in the game definitely helps her, but she lives in a game where everyone else's frame data is much better than before, so she endures the pre-patch SSB4 Marth effect where something she excels at is technically better (frame data) but everyone else caught up.

Very few players actually use her anymore, and pretty much no one does well with her. Even though VoiD has faith in Sheik, emphasis why he puts her in high tier in his tier list, he barely uses her and has obtained pretty much no (relevant) results using her.

VoiD is planning on using her for Glitch 7 this weekend, so we will see how well that goes.

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In 's case, his advantage state is simply is not strong enough to make up for his flaws. He has received a lot of direct buffs from SSB4 (I am frankly quite surprised how many he received directly).

However, while some of his buffs do help him out in some areas, namely approaching (and up air, yay!), they pretty much did very little to alleviate his biggest weaknesses. His approach is still mediocre at best, and his disadvantage is still pretty problematic. His main gameplan from SSB4 also got indirectly nerfed from simply existing in Ultimate's engine. The cast is simply more capable of exploiting the loopholes around his gameplan. Z-air range getting gutted doesn't entirely help.

However, the main thing that really harms Lucas in this game is that: "Yes, I finally put the opponent in disadvantage. ....... now what?" SSB4 Lucas has some of the same issues as Ultimate Lucas, even worse in a few areas (namely approaching), but at least he has a strong combo game with his down throw to help alleviate it. What does Ultimate Lucas have? Not much, and the new combos he does have access now to are noticeably more situational/difficult-to-pull-off than in SSB4. His recovery, for some reason, can be faulty sometimes, as his PK Thunder 2 can sometimes fail to grab the ledge or randomly bounce off of it (I have seen Lucas even clip through the stage ledge at times).

He does have some merits. As some people has mentioned, his edgeguarding is strong; even better than it was in SSB4. His frame data is some areas, namely his areas, are solid overall, but mediocre in other areas (namely his ground moves). But putting opponents in that position in the first place can be a hassle, plus characters that can practically ignore offstage disadvantage (Pika, G&W, MK) exists.

While some players that do main him in SSB4, like Mekos, SHiNe, and Hakadama, still play him in Ultimate, they haven't done anything noteworthy outside of locals, which is a far cry from their decent performances in bigger tournaments in SSB4. Others like NovaPiXL, Sidereus, and Hakii pretty much dropped him entirely. Pink Fresh, who experimented with him quite a bit earlier in Ultimate, mains ZSS now. While I think his lack of tournament placements would normally be associated with a lack of representation, his old mains either not doing very well him or dropping him altogether kind of adds volume to his unfortunate situation.

It is a shame because I actually like how he designed in this game better than in SSB4. Patch 4.0.0 didn't help out too much, but it is a step in the right direction, so hopefully he gets more love in the future.

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Corrin is severely lacking in many departments. I'll go over a few in order to help shed some light on this character.
Let's examine what she's supposed to be good at: comboing and juggling. While nair, fair and uair are great combo starters, it becomes increasingly difficult keeping yoir opponents in the air. Why is this? Simple-Corrin does not have the mobility to keep the pressure on her opponents. This frequent failure to keep foes in disadvantage force a gameplan where Corrin will have to repeatedly return to neutral after spitting a foe out of her blender. Compare this to swordies such as Marcina and Chroy, whose speed, grounded buttons and aerials make it quite simple to combo foes or at the very least keep them in disadvantage.
Now we look at her weaknesses. Lack of mobility was already mentioned so I will leave it at that. The other huge, HUGE issue that Corrin has is that she has a hard time killing. This is mostly due to her not having many kill setups, making it increasingly likely that she will have to fish for raw KO options. Her safest options for this are up throw (which should start killing starting at 130% and upward on lighter characters) and ftilt (this starts killing around 110% near the ledge, and is pretty quick with decent cooldown so it's not the worst option). Her other kill options are uair, bair, her smash attacks and Pin. Uair in this game has issues killing so it's tough securing stocks with this move, especially due to the aformentioned mobility reducing the success rate of catching someone with it near the top blastzone. Bair is pretty strong and a good tool for getting KOs, but it's hard edgeguarding with this move. What's more is that bair is the only aerial that will push offstage foes towards the blastzone, while her fair won't send them anywhere near it (making killing with edgeguards exceedingly tough with her). Her Smash attacks are limited in their use: usmash has a very limited hitbox above her, dsmash lacks the oomph needed to secure stocks, and fsmash can be blocked fairly easily and get punished due to the high cooldown on the move (spacing at the tip is even punishable in this way by most of the cast). And Pin's issues (especially compared to Smash 4's iteration) have been discussed at length; it's not as safe nor as powerful as it once was, and is not the overcentralizing tool that would invalidate matchups as it had before. All of these issues combine to make Corrin a character who will struggle to kill while not even excelling in the role she was designed for.
Corrin's buffs (except the improved up B range) are not helping her much, and it will take something drastic (increased mobility, uair knockback buffs, a safer Pin, etc) in order for her to actually be worth using.

Edit: DFS uncharged/slightly charged hit+medium charge bite can kill pretty well, but you really have to make a read to get it or get lucky hitting it against a recovering foe.
For what it's worth I think she is a bottom 10 character as things stand now, and I don't see it getting any better anytime soon with 5.0 not introducing any changes for her

It's almost like nerfing Corrin's specials in favor of making them more 'well rounded' (which causes them not only to be undertuned af, but also fall further under the design space of characters like Marthcina) wasn't a good idea.

These two posts pretty much summarizes my thoughts on Corrin. Uncharged neutral B also as a tendency to not combo into the bite in this game, which also adds on to her list of issues. It is a shame, because she was one of the characters I had the most fun with in SSB4, and they gutted her like she was a top 5 character in SSB4, when she is arguably not even top 10. Even didn't receive the same magnitude of nerfs Corrin received, and Cloud was top 3 in SSB4.

While is barely played mostly because exists, is barely played because literally anything else that has a sword exists.

 

[KirbySquad101]

Wanted to watch some sets with SHADIC to get a better idea of how Corrin is supposed to be used at higher levels of play first before I made my analysis.

-The biggest problem I noticed is that Corrin mainly struggles at 0%~10% and at percents between 90% - 130%; a lot of her attacks have a stigma of low base knockback and high knockback scaling, so a lot of her attacks are unsafe on hit; I don't think this issue is nearly as bad as 's given that her sword is a disjoint, so if she spaces well enough, it can be hard to punish her, but nevertheless, it can be hard to bring opponents towards that threshold she wants them at. 90%~130% is also a bit of a struggle because at those percents, the only things that can KO the opponent are her more situational attacks: Neither UAir or UThrow, her two most practical kill options, won't kill at such percents unless the opponent is high up in the sky already in the case of the former. Her other main kill options, BAir, FSmash, and Pin are solid: BAir is safe, FSmash tears through shields, and Pin is effective for edgeguarding. But they have their own drawbacks: BAir relinquishes control of neutral, FSmash is very committal, and Pin is hard to land. This wouldn't be an issue if it weren't the fact that most of Corrin's best combo tools stop working at such percents, particularly FAir. It requires Corrin to get a bunch of stray hits to bring the opponent to UThrow/UAir kill percents and outside of her combos and Pin, Corrin struggles to rack up percents given her below average damage output. I don't think this a big issue given that Corrin has a pretty solid neutral, but it gives the opponent more time to catch up, which can be an absolute death sentence for characters with such big comeback potential, particularly characters like or .

- Her combo game is solid, but I don't think it's quite on par on with the likes of say / for two reasons: 1. Her damage output on her best combo tools is lacking compared to theirs (this is also partly why has a stronger punish game, despite having much worse combo routes compared to Corrin), and 2. Her poor movement kind of limits how much combos she tack on the opponent. Again, it's not something I find to be to be too much of an issue for reasons I'll go into later, but it does give the impression that she's an inferior version of all the other FE characters not named Ike or Robin.

- Cloud mains really should pipe down about their NAir, because Corrin's looks even more inconsistent in terms of its range hitboxes: I've tried using move several as a landing option, but it requires Corrin to basically be in point-blank range to actually hit the opponent. I'm not sure if this was a problem in SSB4 but given the fact that its both short-ranged and has more lag than her FAir, it makes sense as to why SHADIC was mainly using FAir as her main approach option.

- Compared to other swordies, Corrin's slow movement gives her arguably one of the hardest times in terms of dealing with zoners and characters with strong projectiles: Characters like or make it hard for her to take advantage of her strong aerials/CQC and her gameplan against the characters really can't amount to much beyond trying to shield through everything they do. Her projectile being as slow as it doesn't really help with this issue either. Her massive range helps alleviate things, but there's only so much ground her pin and sword can cover.

- While Corrin can't keep combos going for very long, she is very good at tacking on damage given the threshold she wants the character to be at. Keep in mind that Corrin has range on par with , but also combo ability that is reminiscent of Chrom. Not to say she has the best of both worlds, but winning neutral with Corrin will more often than not tack on 20~30% worth of damage with both FAir and UAir, two attacks that are fast, have short durations, and launch at perfect angles for combos. Pin is also still a fairly solid move: The kick is no longer safe like it was in Smash 4, but jumping/canceling it makes it a safe option if spaced well enough, even against shielding opponents. Let's not forget the move is still frame 4 and landing it nets you an easy 22% worth of damage; it's still a strong option in Corrin's arsenal, it's just not borderline busted like it was in Smash 4.

- And let's talk about that for a bit: Pin, neutral aerial, and up aerial, given their combination of start-up, endlag, and range, are not only all safe options (with slight exceptions to the former), but also cover a ton of ground: Pin covers much of the ground the opponent walks on, forward aerial covers nearly all the space in front of Corrin, both above and below, and up aerial has such a favorable arc that it grants Corrin a very strong option to fall through platforms with. This grants Corrin a fairly strong neutral despite her slow movement, and the fact that she gets a pretty good reward off of all these options definitely helps things as well.

- Despite what her slow movement would imply, she's fairly solid at frame-trapping opponents: Back aerial, forward aerial, and up aerial all have surprisingly short durations; combined with each attack's massive range, makes her very effective for catching air dodges and getting a strong punish off of it. Down tilt, one of her best attacks in neutral, accomplishes this very well when the opponent is at higher percents: While it cannot combo opponents very well at high percents, it also puts them in the exact position Corrin wants them to be at. Basically, Corrin's got some very strong aerial pressure and has the tools to be the opponent where she wants them at.

- I'm mixed on her edgeguarding: Forward aerial is pretty terrible for edgeguarding given the angle it sends at, but Pin is very fast and when sweetspotted, can kill stupid early. However, it's also hard to land to the pin, and its hitbox is not very generous, which makes it situational in terms of landing it. Back aerial also covers a lot of range, and is safe to use at the ledge, but it's also slow, which makes it fairly easy to dodge. I'm not sure if I'm read to call it good or not, but we'll see.

That's my thoughts on for now; she definitely can carry that stigma of being outclassed by other FE members given she lacks the explosive power of characters like/ while also lacking the movement/recovery of a character like , but I still think she's a fairly decent character. I do agree that characters like or are probably worse than her, despite the OrionStats implying otherwise, but I can see why many think of her as underwhelming. Watching SHADIC and hearing Sparg0's thoughts on him does give me hope that we might be seeing a breakthrough from him, however.

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Speaking of swordies (and Sparg0) for that matter, I wanted to talk about for a bit, or rather, the recent trend of everyone collectively dropping him: YOC dropped him fairly recently for , then not too long ago, Cheeks dropped him for , then right afterwards Salt One declared he's only going solo from now on, and now, even Sparg0 is saying that he has a new main under his belt, and had contemplated dropping Cloud for a while now.

 

[TimG57867]

One thing I am surprised hasn't really been mentioned regarding 's issues standing out is their grab reward, or lack of it compared to other swordsman.

Now sword characters have never really been renowned for long, suoer damaging throw combos but the more majority of swordsman can at least he hit you for a nice 2-3 piece combo taht can potentially be followed with a good juggle situation. And if not that, the throw at least gets them a solid positional advantage as a lot swordsman throws that don't really combo tend to have good base knockback and fair cooldown.

Such is not the case with Corrin's Throws. None of Corrin's throws can combo into other moves in any shape whatsoever. And on top of that, none of them are ideal for granting Corrin good positional advantage either. F-Throw and B-Throw have fair cooldown but the KG they deliver is mediocre especially with the former and neither have a particularly nice and shallow angle to really force out the opponent's offstage resources. This just makes it even tricker to land Pin and B-Air off stage which are usually her goto edgeguarding options. Down Throw has good KB on its own but it has too much BKB and lag to have any utility comboing and that lag combined with its angle means it not only can't kill well at death percent but it also isn't good for setting up juggles as it gives the foe a decent amount of time to collect themselves before Corrin can move and it sends them away from Corring making pursuit even harder. Up Throw isn't as laggy and has a far better angle, making it her goto kill throw. But because of how shaky it is for her to consistently take stocks, she's forced to avoid using it until 140+ % depending on character less she risk it being too stale to seal off the stock when she needs it to, thus making it risky to use to setup juggles. 's often the first thing folks think of when discussing a swordsman with poor grab reward (especially as it's locked behind a Frame 9 Grab to boot) but even in his case at low percents he can catch people with his Cross Slash via Down Throw at low percent and his throws are generally far better at giving him positional advantage. I actually don't find it a stretch to say Corrin has the worst grab reward of any sword user in the roster.

Now, basically all of this held true in SSB4 as well. But it was FAR easier to work around back then because Corrin's combos and juggles off raw hits were much more reliable and her old Pin let her dominate the flow of neutral enough that she didn't need grab as much to play around in the foe's shield and overall defense. But with a lot of her combo and juggle normals being shakier and Pin greatly reduced in utility, that poor grab game is a lot more noticeable as a liability, even with shields being nerfed from last game. Even has a good shot at getting a tipper aerial of his D-Throw at early percents which deals a good bit of damage and can help him get past that early % threshold where his non tipper moves can be rather unsafe on hit. Corrin doesn't even have that option on the table to try and build % to make her normals safer on hit. Their notably poor grab game I feel is just another notable factor that leaves Corrin as a whole feeling lacking compared to wide array of other sword users available.

 

[$.A.F.]

I don’t believe that is a horrible character and definitely isn’t unsalvageable, but the fact is and always has been that he/she is not unique or good enough to really have any sort of dedicated player base. He/She also isn’t crazy popular so nada to that as well. I honestly think Corrin on the OrionStats will stay reliably in bottom 10 for the foreseeable future and opinions of her/him will only worsen without buffs. And even with substantial buffs (as we saw in 4.0.0) we’d need MK freaking Leo or someone like him to revive the slightest interest in the character. Corrin isn’t that terrible, but they are probably the definitive least attractive character for a lot of people to pick up and I can’t honestly blame them.

 

[Frihetsanka]

One thing I am surprised hasn't really been mentioned regarding 's issues standing out is their grab reward, or lack of it compared to other swordsman.

Probably because it wasn't good in Smash 4 either. Her up-throw killing later hurts, though.

Let's not forget the move is still frame 4 and landing it nets you an easy 22% worth of damage; it's still a strong option in Corrin's arsenal, it's just not borderline busted like it was in Smash 4.

Instapin is frame 8, I believe. It's a solid move but not close to enough to make her a decent character. She needs more buffs, right now she's arguably worse than Pit.

 

[Impax]

Tweek using banjo in pools?

 

[The_Bookworm]

Tweek using banjo in pools?

He has been playing Banjo a lot in his streams (and putting people in a combo reel lol), so it is no surprise that he is taking them out for a spin in a big event.

Wonder how long he is going to stick with the duo throughout this event.

 

[KirbySquad101]

Ah, I was just checking her stats

I dunno, I actually think might have the edge in terms of grabs in the sense that her UThrow makes getting grabbed far scarier than other swordies at a much lower percentage window. From what I've seen, UThrows kill 30~35% later than Corrin's, and doesn't even have a kill throw to speak of. That said, I can't really defend her other throws, though down throw does do above average knockback and damage, which helps compensate for its endlag. Then again, I don't find most of the FE's grab rewards to be generally remarkable, given that their combo throws suffer from having too much lag, the two big exceptions being and (Also their BThrows are arguably some of the worst in the game, they don't send the opponent anywhere except a few feet upwards, and have a whooping 35 frames of lag at the end).

If I were to buff Corrin, I would do so in 2 ways:

1. Have DTilt inflict more hitstun or reduce its endlag; this would help patch Corrin's problems with finding good moves that inflict enough hitstun during the start of the game, and it makes it a solid confirm into UAir for a kill at higher percents.
2. Buff her smash attacks; maybe not FSmash, but as far as kill options go, both USmash and DSmash are generally unremarkable: The former's hitbox is too small for it to hit most opponents given its start-up, and DSmash is just really weak barring the back hit's sweetspot. DSmash would be easy to fix in the sense all you would need to do is give it adequate kill power (and probably faster start-up). As for USmash, I think just making it faster and giving it a more generous hitbox would do a lot on its own to make Corrin a bigger threat at higher percents.

While it wouldn't fix all of Corrin's problems, it does help in patching up her biggest one, that being her unremarkable kill power at percents below 130%.

It does sound like I'm inflating Corrin's strengths, but I think that might just be a product of me playing the devils advocate lol. While I'll agree that Corrin isn't a secret high/top tier threat, I think also going over what Corrin is GOOD in alongside what she's BAD in gives a better picture of where exactly she is meta-wise.

Oh yeah, and before I forget:

https://smashboards.com/threads/glitch-7-minus-world-discussion-thread.489212/

I feel like it would be more appropriate to give it its own thread since it's an S Tier event.

 

[TimG57867]

Ah, I was just checking her stats

I dunno, I actually think might have the edge in terms of grabs in the sense that her UThrow makes getting grabbed far scarier than other swordies at a much lower percentage window. From what I've seen, UThrows kill 30~35% later than Corrin's, and doesn't even have a kill throw to speak of. That said, I can't really defend her other throws, though down throw does do above average knockback and damage, which helps compensate for its endlag. Then again, I don't find most of the FE's grab rewards to be generally remarkable, given that their combo throws suffer from having too much lag, the two big exceptions being and (Also their BThrows are arguably some of the worst in the game, they don't send the opponent anywhere except a few feet upwards, and have a whooping 35 frames of lag at the end).

If I were to buff Corrin, I would do so in 2 ways:

1. Have DTilt inflict more hitstun or reduce its endlag; this would help patch Corrin's problems with finding good moves that inflict enough hitstun during the start of the game, and it makes it a solid confirm into UAir for a kill at higher percents.
2. Buff her smash attacks; maybe not FSmash, but as far as kill options go, both USmash and DSmash are generally unremarkable: The former's hitbox is too small for it to hit most opponents given its start-up, and DSmash is just really weak barring the back hit's sweetspot. DSmash would be easy to fix in the sense all you would need to do is give it adequate kill power (and probably faster start-up). As for USmash, I think just making it faster and giving it a more generous hitbox would do a lot on its own to make Corrin a bigger threat at higher percents.

While it wouldn't fix all of Corrin's problems, it does help in patching up her biggest one, that being her unremarkable kill power at percents below 130%.

It does sound like I'm inflating Corrin's strengths, but I think that might just be a product of me playing the devils advocate lol. While I'll agree that Corrin isn't a secret high/top tier threat, I think also going over what Corrin is GOOD in alongside what she's BAD in gives a better picture of where exactly she is meta-wise.

Oh yeah, and before I forget:

https://smashboards.com/threads/glitch-7-minus-world-discussion-thread.489212/

I feel like it would be more appropriate to give it its own thread since it's an S Tier event.

Yeah her kill throw is the strongest out of them but until you actually get to it its killing percent her Grab is probably the least threatening. If D-Throw in particularly just sent foes straight up like Marcina’s does without that endlag that alone would be big boost grab game compared to theirs a ton and help her juggle game as it give her an option to get foes straight above her without staling a key kill option and beating shield all the while. Her poor ground mobility really stings her juggle game since most of her low committal vertical sending attacks send at an angle foes can exploit to get further away.

Having said that I do agree its key to look at what Corrin stands out for and despite being undertuned atm, I do actually think maintains semblance of a niche despite the intense competition. Namely via the unique combination of having a kit geared towards getting foes above her for juggles which includes a well ranged Frame 6 N-Air that circles Corrin from 2 directions which makes not only a good combo and juggle starting tool but also a key reversal option in disadvantage, her control of the stage with Pin which serves as a disjoint and movement option at once while also having offensive utility in the air, and having all that be accentuated with a projectile that not only gives her ranged option but stubs to setup too. This combination of attributes are what let rise to great success in SSB4 and even in Ultimate I still feel they come to get together to make her unique.

Thus if one wanted to go about improving and making Corrin stand out more, I feel it’s key to make these perks truly shine again. Now Dragon Lunge isn’t as good as before but it’s still a solid move and improving it too much could make it a problem again.

Thus it’s probably best to focus on improving her juggle game and Dragon Fang Shot. Your D Tilt change pretty much solves a lot of her issues as it would give her a safe, low committal option to start a juggle, combo, and kill setup again. And along with that, I would probably make Dragon Fang Shot more rewarding on hit as its stun has been greatly reduced to the point where its tough to really confirm off it from a distance while getting the close up bite can be finicky. And to top it off I personally boost her mobility to what it would be if it was never nerfed in SSB4 so that they can chase landings better. Tbh I still to this day don’t understand why that was done given the far more glaring things had. Those Smash Attack changes would just make good extra QoL.

Overall I do feel Corrin maintains a potential niche in the meta with their unique combination of juggle tools and stage controlling options as a swordie. But their nerfs and engine changes have made this niche not as effective before in the face of other swordies who execute their respective niches more effectively.

 

[Ffamran]

And to top it off I personally boost her mobility to what it would be if it was never nerfed in SSB4 so that they can chase landings better.

If I recall correctly, most characters had their run speed increase by x1.1 and walk speed and air speed by x1.05. I say most since you have characters like Ryu who had no change to his run and walk speed, Ike whose run speed was increased from 1.5 in Smash 4 to 1.507 in Ultimate a x1.0046667 increase, or Fox whose air speed increased by x1.15625 from 0.96 in Smash 4 to 1.11 in Ultimate.

Anyway, release Corrin had a run speed of 1.5, a walk speed of 1.2, and an air speed of 1 and 1.1.5 dropped it down to 1.45, 1.15, and 0.97; -0.05, -0.05, and -0.03. In Ultimate, Corrin was bumped up to 1.595 run speed (x1.1), 1.208 walk speed (x1.05), and a 1.019 air speed (x1.05) which more or less brought Corrin back up to release Smash 4 Corrin in movement.

If Corrin's movement was not changed in any patches during Smash 4 and Corrin didn't deviate from the general movement value increases, then Ultimate Corrin would have had 1.65 run speed, 1.26 walk speed, and a 1.1 air speed. This Corrin would have the same run speed as Lucas, Luigi, and Wario, same walk speed as Mewtwo, Mii Brawler, and Young Link, and air speed between that of Charizard and (Dark) Samus (1.103) and Pac-Man and Zelda (1.092). That's a jump from having the same run speed as Daisy, Ivysaur, Peach, and Snake, the same walk speed as Chrom, Roy, and Wolf, and the same air speed as Bayonetta and WFT. And compared to reality Ultimate Corrin, +0.055 run speed, +0.052 walk speed, and +0.081 air speed. It's not a massive boost, but it would help.

It was talked about before and probably around the release of Ultimate, but some of the returning characters from Melee and Brawl were kind of screwed by the multiplier increases to movement instead of character by character changes which would have taken a lot of time probably. It's not all that bad and it's not like, say, Wolf needed faster run speed or Snake needed faster walk speed. At the same time, it does assume that had these characters been in Smash 4, their movement would have been increased or not touched. For instance, Wario going from Brawl to Smash 4 lost some air speed while Wolf didn't and as a result, Wolf's air speed ended up being better than Wario's if ever so slightly. Wario went from 1.222 speed in Brawl to 1.21 in Smash 4 and was bumped up 1.271 (x1.05) in Ultimate while Wolf went from 1.222 air speed in Brawl to 1.281 (x1.05).

Also, if you want another hypothetical situation of what would have happened if a character's movement wasn't reduced from a game to game or from a patch: Falco. If Falco kept his 1.5 run speed in Melee -- incidentally, the same running speed Smash 4 Corrin had at release -- or kept an average running speed from the two games between Ultimate, than in Ultimate and if he wasn't another deviation, he would have had the same running speed as Lucas, Luigi, and Wario at 1.65 at worst or the same running speed as Bayonetta, Ken, Mario, and Squirtle at 1.76 at best. That's a +0.031 to +0.141 increase. The former isn't that big as while he dropped from 1.5 to 1.432 (-0.068) in Brawl, his run speed was increased to 1.472 in Smash 4 (+0.04 between games and a -0.028 net decrease). The latter supposes Falco would have shared the same run speed as Mario throughout the games; 1.5 in Melee and Brawl, 1.6 in Smash 4, and 1.76 in Ultimate.

An average, 1.6 run speed probably wouldn't have helped him as much in Smash 4, but in Ultimate, an average, 1.76 run speed probably would make him more terrifying than he is now. Considering the relative run speed, 1.76 is average in Ultimate, but it's still a 1.76 run speed. That's fast at the likes of Melee Pichu, Brawl Pikachu, Smash 4 Lucina and Marth and faster than Smash 4 Toon Link whereas 1.6 in Smash 4 was as fast as Melee DK, Young Link, Yoshi, and barely slower than Melee Roy (1.61), as fast as Brawl DK and Pit, and in Ultimate as fast as or if you see it this way, as slow as Falco, Mega Man, Ness, Olimar, and Ryu and slightly faster than Corrin, Daisy, Ivysaur, Peach, Snake, and Mii Swordfighter.

Edit: Messed up the multiplier increase of Fox's air speed from Smash 4 to Ultimate. Not sure how I messed something up with a calculator.

 

[Anomika]

There weren't updates that changed movement attributes on any fighter thus far, were there? Corrin would definitely benefit from better speed for spacing and escaping combos. Feels like they're sometimes too easy to juggle because of that. Also 1.76 speed already exists on several fighters like Mario , which is perfectly fine for his low range on attacks. Corrin would definitely be more terrifying with great range their disjoints have.

Young Link's air speed got decreased which is an exception and it still makes me wonder why, though he's a good overall character so I guess I'm fine with that. Dr Mario would benefit more from increased run and air speed though...

Wolf's slowish dash speed is counterbalanced by good initial dash speed and one of the best air speeds, which is a good trade-off.

P.S. Fox's air speed didn't get a 1.06x increase, it's way higher than that! It's actually 1.15x increase, though with his falling speed and gravity also increased, it doesn't help with recovery that much, but I guess it can help against potential juggles. It should be now considered an average instead of below average air speed, and as far as I know, the only Smash game that Fox had an at least average air speed is in Super Smash Bros. 64 (third highest!)

 

[Megamang]

Airspeed helps with a ton more than recovery too! The gravity / fall speed increase is a double edged sword of course, as we know Fox's disadvantage isn't great and as you mentioned, his recovery isn't his strong suit either.


That said, airspeed helps with advantage state tremendously. Closing gaps to punish things, because you can jump sooner and still make it there so you can punish sooner etc. The aforementioned combos. Neutral especially, its just mathematically harder to react to someone going faster, and while acceleration is what can help make you ambiguous, airspeed helps with things like shield safety. This is not only because you can crossup that much easier, but because you can drift back out of OoS range a bit more efficiently. Note air accel plays into all the above as well, but air speed certainly helps. Air speed really doesn't have too many disadvantages either due to the high degree of control you have, if you want to go slower in some situation that is up to you!


I didn't think you were denying this, just wanted to put it out there. I'd imagine toon link was slowed down to prevent a truly obnoxious camper.

 

[Anomika]

VoiD's Sheik managed to get top 16 in Glitch 7, that's pretty great! Mr R is also motivated to use Sheik again because of this. Hopefully they will keep getting good results as time goes on. I'll admit that some of her flaws might need to be addressed, but if not, I hope VoiD won't fall in a "Pichu cycle" again.

 

[The_Bookworm]

VoiD's Sheik managed to get top 16 in Glitch 7, that's pretty great! Mr R is also motivated to use Sheik again because of this. Hopefully they will keep getting good results as time goes on. I'll admit that some of her flaws might need to be addressed, but if not, I hope VoiD won't fall in a "Pichu cycle" again.

It is impressive, although the only notable win with her got was yeti, who then proceeded to lose to Young Eevey in loser's.
We will see how VoiD fares against LeoN, the heaviest character in the game.