Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Anomika]

Well, the first stock vs LeoN went promising at first, dealing 88% damage quickly (pretty impressive for her), but then random attacks / grabs from LeoN and then easy loss. After Pichu he won over LeoN, but then proceeded to lose to WaDi with both fighters.

 

[$.A.F.]

Two Plants got 33rd. Not anything crazy but a decent showing nonetheless

 

[Deleted member]

Three Koopalings top 65...
But let’s face the most important thing by from the event -

ESAM WINS S TIER WITH !!
Over a decade of effort and at last work has payed off. Fantastic.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Three Koopalings top 65...
But let’s face the most important thing by from the event -

ESAM WINS S TIER WITH !!
Over a decade of effort and at last work has payed off. Fantastic.

Some people in Twitter is saying that Glitch 7 has turned into an A tier after Stroder and Elegant DQ'ed themselves out of the tournament, but I am not sure.

Regardless, a big victory for ESAM.


Edit: I did check the TTS, and it did change into a high A tier event. Kind of saw this coming, but I can see some people be a little upset over this seemingly last-minute change.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Some people in Twitter is saying that Glitch 7 has turned into an A tier after Stroder and Elegant DQ'ed themselves out of the tournament, but I am not sure.

Regardless, a big victory for ESAM.


Edit: I did check the TTS, and it did change into a high A tier event. Kind of saw this coming, but I can see some people be a little upset over this seemingly last-minute change.

Hopefully that doesn't take much away from him, if anything.
Still, good job dude, you earned it.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

Banjo showing potential in Glitch 7

 

[Ffamran]

P.S. Fox's air speed didn't get a 1.06x increase, it's way higher than that! It's actually 1.15x increase, though with his falling speed and gravity also increased, it doesn't help with recovery that much, but I guess it can help against potential juggles. It should be now considered an average instead of below average air speed, and as far as I know, the only Smash game that Fox had an at least average air speed is in Super Smash Bros. 64 (third highest!)

You're right about that. I don't know how I messed up using the calculator. Maybe I checked some other character's movement stats, but forgot and thought it was Fox's air speed for some reason.

Speaking of high air speed increase, Lucario who apparently had an even higher increase than Fox at x1.175229 where Lucario went from having 1.09 air speed in Smash 4 to 1.281 air speed, the same as Ultimate Wolf's, in Ultimate. Lucario went from having pretty average air speed to one of the highest air speeds. Lucario's air acceleration was also changed from 0 base and 0.07 max additional in Smash 4 to 0.01 base and 0.08 max additional for a 0.09 total air acceleration.

 

[NotLiquid]

Banjo's vertical prowess when factoring in his projectile play at a mid-range level turns him into a genuinely potent force as Tweek exhibited this weekend. It also helps that he actually has some solid buttons under the surface that allows him to throw out attacks reliably without much fear of reprisal. Several of his disjointed moves gives him great mid-range pressure and D-Tilt in particular is a stupidly good edgeguard tool due to its distance, low-profile, knockback, hitbox and knockback angle. What stood out to me was how there were multiple times when Tweek managed to break out of vortexes and kill setups via reverse-Down Bs. The attack is Frame 10, which obviously makes it not as effective Snake's grenades, but it's a bit of a sleeper option considering by my recollection it doesn't actually send Banjo into hitstun during direct contact with the enemy. That means unlike Snake's grenades it's much better as a reversal option. If people manage to lab more grenade kill confirms, I think people may want to pick their spots when it comes to engaging Banjo at high percents with strings that aren't true combos. An equally interesting tech is setting grenades behind the opponent to cover raw Wonderwing usages, as opponents can't chase you for a punish.

Also did I mention Banjo's DTilt is stupidly good? Because it is.

If there was ever any doubt that Snake has an absolutely miserable MU against Inkling they should be expelled by now since this is the second time Cosmos has 3-0'd MVD. That being said, Bowser being on the rise may turn out to be good news for Snake since it seems as if he has a pretty respectable matchup against him. Grenade traps require some absolutely galaxy brain play but there were a few times when LeoN got stuffed out of Snake's grenades in the middle of a side B, and since almost every one of Bowser's OoS options leave him vulnerable, he has to be wary of Snake's kill buttons (aka up tilt).

 

[Lacrimosa]

Well, the first stock vs LeoN went promising at first, dealing 88% damage quickly (pretty impressive for her), but then random attacks / grabs from LeoN and then easy loss. After Pichu he won over LeoN, but then proceeded to lose to WaDi with both fighters.

In short: VoiD couldn't touch a player on his level with Sheik.

 

[Minordeth]

Quick thoughts:

- Congrats to ESAM for finally getting a big tourney win with Pika. After Leon’s big Bowser win, it’s a nice week for high tiers.

- 3 Falco’s in top 64 is a nice showing for the bird.

- Void had a nice run with Sheik, even if he got forced to switch by Leon. Bowser is a volatile matchup for almost every character, and if the glass cannon types can’t close out his stocks quickly, the set exponentially grows in Bowser’s favor.

- Void also had a nice showing against Tweek, despite a 3-0 on paper. He kept it last stock for two games before getting a bit flustered on game 3. To a degree, you could see the gears turning on how to deal with the MU at that level. There were more than a few times that Void turned it into a one player game, reminiscent of his Smash 4 glory.

- Nairo is evolving in real time from a top 10 Ultimate player, to a top 5 player. His Palu is absolutely insane and he continues to refine his game plan. The set against ESAM was lightning fast with immaculate spacing and truly wild plays. I looked about as surprised as Esam when Nairo parried his Fair from ledge and killed him with Utilt.

- NotLiquid - Bowser does more than fine against Snake, so I wouldn’t be celebrating if I was a Snake player. Leon just personally hates the MU. For instance, downthrow kills Snake, does 20%, and has generous enough I-frames, that it can power through grenade drop without too much trouble.

 

[|RK|]

In short: VoiD couldn't touch a player on his level with Sheik.

To be fair, one thing he and Mr. R complained about was people saying things like this, while his Pichu did worse vs WaDi than his Sheik did.

 

[Lacrimosa]

To be fair, one thing he and Mr. R complained about was people saying things like this, while his Pichu did worse vs WaDi than his Sheik did.

I think that's only natural. He hasn't proven anything with Sheik.
It's a bit annoying when a top-player tries to hype up a character but the results aren't there (yet). At least not for a player that did extremely well at Sm4sh at her. She's not the same character but I think it's only natural to have higher expectations than usual. If he hadn't played Sheik in Sm4sh und picked her up as a "new" character, then I think the reactions would be vastly different and not all that wary.

 

[SapphSabre777]

Hopefully that doesn't take much away from him, if anything.
Still, good job dude, you earned it.

Judging by his Twitter responses, he's not worried about it at all. Beating LeoN, Light, Suarez, Tweek, and Nairo in the same tournament is something that just outweighs any tier ranking, and he's proud of it.

Banjo's vertical prowess when factoring in his projectile play at a mid-range level turns him into a genuinely potent force as Tweek exhibited this weekend. It also helps that he actually has some solid buttons under the surface that allows him to throw out attacks reliably without much fear of reprisal. Several of his disjointed moves gives him great mid-range pressure and D-Tilt in particular is a stupidly good edgeguard tool due to its distance, low-profile, knockback, hitbox and knockback angle. What stood out to me was how there were multiple times when Tweek managed to break out of vortexes and kill setups via reverse-Down Bs. The attack is Frame 10, which obviously makes it not as effective Snake's grenades, but it's a bit of a sleeper option considering by my recollection it doesn't actually send Banjo into hitstun during direct contact with the enemy. That means unlike Snake's grenades it's much better as a reversal option. If people manage to lab more grenade kill confirms, I think people may want to pick their spots when it comes to engaging Banjo at high percents with strings that aren't true combos. An equally interesting tech is setting grenades behind the opponent to cover raw Wonderwing usages, as opponents can't chase you for a punish.

Also did I mention Banjo's DTilt is stupidly good? Because it is.

The thing about Banjo is that while he doesn't have anything truly absurd (think Arsene, Peach combos, Snake stuff), he makes up for it by having extremely solid options across the board. If anything, the absurd thing is how well these tools mesh together, and Tweek demonstrated it very well against both Dark Wizzy and ESAM. Recognizing that zoning with Egg Lay wasn't as effective, he switched Banjo to a swordfighter-style, which with really crazy tilts in F-Tilt and D-Tilt, he did and exploited their weaknesses as best as he could. In other cases, when that sort of style didn't work, he would switch to a more zoning-centered playstyle and use Neutral-B and Down-B to stop his opponents. Combine the fact that Banjo can punish attempting to eliminate the Eggs with his range or WW, and it creates a dangerous call-out game for the opponent given Banjo's other attributes, especially his grab game. When this character's more technical side is accounted for (Tweek did use Egg Lay when an Egg was already in play), I can see this character as one not to underestimate in the slightest, even with now.

 

[|RK|]

I think that's only natural. He hasn't proven anything with Sheik.
It's a bit annoying when a top-player tries to hype up a character but the results aren't there (yet). At least not for a player that did extremely well at Sm4sh at her. She's not the same character but I think it's only natural to have higher expectations than usual. If he hadn't played Sheik in Sm4sh und picked her up as a "new" character, then I think the reactions would be vastly different and not all that wary.

Personally, I find it refreshing. If a top player doesn't believe in an underrated character, how will that character get results at all?

Especially since many chars get a boost solely because people copy what better players do.

Joker players were actually awful until Leo showed up. Now they're using Gun, Eiha, and all of his tools way more effectively - even at the lowest levels.

---

On a separate topic, seems like we're seeing a lot of top players interested in playing their lower tier chars again lol.

VoiD bringing back the Sheik (alongside Pichu for support), Dabuz's Rosa (alongside Olimar)

Then, Leo expressed interest in working on his Marth again (though naturally keeping Joker as his main)

...Then possibly a meme, but Samsora is talking about playing Isabelle.

 

[blackghost]

i'm not buying into banjo in the slightest. him having dthrow into uptilt is quit literally carrying the character. theresno wow factor not even a DLC character wow factor but a high tier wow factor.
the egg bomb is not effective at getting out of real setups and vortexes it is too slow.
I saw more of tweek skill in banjo than the character being impressive. it a character with pieces of other characters but those tools are never equal to those tools other characters posses.

void's shiek was fun but not effective for a player of his level. the damage simply isnt there. i know its cliche and repetitive but to me its really that simple. looks like he's playing on a handicap when you track his damage output.

also it looks like this event is now an A tier so im not sure how that affects things moving forward.

 

[Arthur97]

Would you say Lucina or Wolf ever had much of a "wow" factor?

 

[NotLiquid]

i'm not buying into banjo in the slightest. him having dthrow into uptilt is quit literally carrying the character.

Banjo DThrow wouldn't carry a single character in the roster, chief.

Actually, reverse-B Rear Egg isn't even his best vortex breaker. It's probably his best pure reversal option as it's more likely to lead into a meatier confirm, but if he just wants to break the chain, UAir is the go-to move.

 

[Lacrimosa]

Personally, I find it refreshing. If a top player doesn't believe in an underrated character, how will that character get results at all?

Especially since many chars get a boost solely because people copy what better players do.

Joker players were actually awful until Leo showed up. Now they're using Gun, Eiha, and all of his tools way more effectively - even at the lowest levels.

---

On a separate topic, seems like we're seeing a lot of top players interested in playing their lower tier chars again lol.

VoiD bringing back the Sheik (alongside Pichu for support), Dabuz's Rosa (alongside Olimar)

Then, Leo expressed interest in working on his Marth again (though naturally keeping Joker as his main)

...Then possibly a meme, but Samsora is talking about playing Isabelle.

I mean, you could say that you think Sheik is high-tier after you've done something with her. It's nice that he believes in Sheik but it kinda feels laid on thick by VoiD. His YT channel is full of him saying "lololol, she isn't low-tier at all, you're all wrong and stupid".
At least, that's how it feels. I could be wrong and these aren't his intentions (probably not) but the way he's promoting her just feels off. Another top-player with a similar character is Fatality and he's much more passive about Falcon, who is also not that good anymore in comparison to Sm4sh. You can still feel that he's also trying to promote said character but on a much more reasonable level.

Anyway, that's getting hardly off-topic, however it looks like you can generate hype around certain characters much better than with others while they aren't better than most characters.

On a different note, I don't know if Tweek is sarcastic or not but it seems he thinks that Ivysaur is a really bad character:

I think ivysaur is really bad

— LG Tweek (@TweekSsb) September 16, 2019

I don't know Tweek well enough in order to tell if that's sarcasm or not...Maybe he just wants Ivy buffed, so PT is even more obnoxious.

 

[Rizen]

Would you say Lucina or Wolf ever had much of a "wow" factor?

Wolf's pre-patch Dsmash was stupidly strong and could kill at about 60%. It's still good but Wolf's a lot more honest post patch.

Lucina's shield breaks are kind of a wow factor. She has some of the best sword zoning and advantage state of the cast without a poor recovery like Chrom.

 

[Strong Badam]

I think that Banjo & Kazooie are a respectable high tier. Certainly not top tier but not bad by any means. His kit is well rounded and he doesn't have any game breaking mechanic like we're used to seeing from DLC additions, doesn't mean he can't hang with most of the cast.
I think his Dthrow is pretty bad actually against a competent masher, it's been more fruitful to throw for position. At the percents where Dthrow upsmash is guaranteed, bthrow will probably kill anyway.

I also feel Sheik is underrated atm, really enjoyed seeing VoiD go far with her this weekend. It's worth noting that WaDi beat his Pichu much more convincingly than the Sheik.

 

[The_Bookworm]

So here is my pre-Orion Stat update analysis on this weekend's winner's and loser's.

For starters, Glitch 7 lacked any international players at all, so world class character specialists, such as Kameme, Raito, Lea, Maister, Protobanham, Kome, Glutonny, etc. has no presence at this tournament, which may affect their placings on the Orion Stats.
The lack of Shuton and MkLeo is somewhat mitigated by Dabuz's and Wishes' impressive performances here.


Now for the biggest winners of the weekend:
Where did the Fox players come from? Light getting 2nd in this tournament in itself is very impressive, but having ZD get 9th and Lui$ get 17th in the cherry-on-top on Fox's amazing weekend. Definitely the biggest winner of this weekend.
ESAM finally won his first major (coinciding with Ash's first league win). Finally, a result where Pikachu can finally be in the discussion for being potentially top 5. ESAM did get a few lucky, potentially bracket winning moments, such as Tweek not going Wario or PkMn Trainer, and Light getting rid of ESAM's biggest nemesis Samsora. Regardless, this is a very nice victory for him, but we will see if he can pick up this consistency or this is just a 1-time thing.
We got ourselves a spark on what may come for this duo. This weekend shows off immediately that the duo has much more promise than Hero in the competitive scene. Tweek's performance all-around with the duo is impressive, going them mostly throughout the tournament, defeating Dark Wizzy, and almost winning against ESAM. Tweek outright winning doubles with the duo shows off their potential for doubles (in which I think he does better).


Now a few others to note:
VoiD got a nice run here with mostly Sheik. However, the only notable win he got with Sheik is yeti. Outside of this win, his Sheik didn't really do much else. Beating Adastran and SMB with Sheik is okay, but his skill level is way above both of them. His only other notable win in this event is LeoN, but he used Pichu to beat him.
As such, I remain very skeptimistic on Sheik's "potential". However, this may give a good boost to her Orion Stat ranking regardless.
Young Eevey's impressive run with Larry is also to be noted. He defeated Xzax, Sova Unknown, and yeti before losing to Gen, ending his run at 25th place. Between this and his Albion 7 performance, he is probably the best Bowser Jr. player in the world, and is a decent boost to the character.
Lucas got himself a little bit of ground this tournament, with Mekos getting 25th in this tournament, which is the highest a Lucas has placed so far in Ultimate, notably defeating Fatality. Whether if Mekos can get this high in a future tournament remains to be seen.
Salem put Bayo to some use in this tournament, eliminating 8BitMan with her. R.O.B. vs Bayo is still a pretty problematic matchup for R.O.B., and probably Bayo's only relevant good matchup (probably one of her only good matchups ). Salem's Bayo and Greninja didn't really put a dent into Gen, and Geist got a meh 65th placement in this tournament. As far as I can tell, Bayo may be a good counterpick against some of the big bodies like R.O.B.

It's worth noting that WaDi beat his Pichu much more convincingly than the Sheik.

WaDi has more Pichu experience, and I could see Pichu's short limbs and inferior mobility give R.O.B. a little bit of an easier time than against Sheik.

R.O.B.'s matchup spread in general is probably the oddest among the high tiers. He does surprisingly well against the top tiers and other high tiers, but has some random problematic matchups in the lower tiers.

 

[Strong Badam]

WaDi has more Pichu experience, and I could see Pichu's short limbs and inferior mobility give R.O.B. a little bit of an easier time than against Sheik.

R.O.B.'s matchup spread in general is probably the oddest among the high tiers. He does surprisingly well against the top tiers and other high tiers, but has some random problematic matchups in the lower tiers.

It's a reasonable statement to make that WaDi has played against more Ultimate Pichu than Ultimate Sheik, but WaDi has to have a ton of Smash Wii U Sheik experience given how common she was in the meta. Her overall gameplan is not drastically different than Wii U so I think a lot of the general strategy should be unchanged.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Something that fell under my radar, and probably the radar of everyone else's, is that Sumabato SP 8 has occurred this weekend as well.


Sumabato SP 8 (320 Entrants; B Tier)
1st: Zackray
2nd: Kome
3rd: Abadango
4th: kept
5th: DoubleA
5th: DIO
7th: Tsujiko
7th: tk3
9th: Sigma
9th: komorikiri
9th: Tatsutsuyo
9th: OCEAN
13th: Masashi
13th: Shogun
13th: Tarakotori
13th: Lunamado


It is not a big Japanese event, so it is easy to see why this event went under the radar.


Three notable things:
Kome's success overseas seems to begin translating over back at home.
It has been forever since we have heard to komorikiri, and he seems to be one of the very few who is dedicated to solo Hero. He did decent this event, beating Masashi, but didn't do too much else. For those who are wondering, his losses where against Komugiko (a Mega Man) and tk3.
Tarakotori is back once again, getting 13th while beating Eim, only losing to OCEAN and Sigma. This man is a Little Mac god.

 

[|RK|]

I mean, you could say that you think Sheik is high-tier after you've done something with her. It's nice that he believes in Sheik but it kinda feels laid on thick by VoiD. His YT channel is full of him saying "lololol, she isn't low-tier at all, you're all wrong and stupid".
At least, that's how it feels. I could be wrong and these aren't his intentions (probably not) but the way he's promoting her just feels off. Another top-player with a similar character is Fatality and he's much more passive about Falcon, who is also not that good anymore in comparison to Sm4sh. You can still feel that he's also trying to promote said character but on a much more reasonable level.

Anyway, that's getting hardly off-topic, however it looks like you can generate hype around certain characters much better than with others while they aren't better than most characters.

On a different note, I don't know if Tweek is sarcastic or not but it seems he thinks that Ivysaur is a really bad character:

I think ivysaur is really bad

— LG Tweek (@TweekSsb) September 16, 2019

I don't know Tweek well enough in order to tell if that's sarcasm or not...Maybe he just wants Ivy buffed, so PT is even more obnoxious.

I think it's more that he wants people to stop criticizing him for switching to Sheik.

People mocked ESAM, too (the king of praising one's character), but no one said "why is he going Pika?" Also, in his interview, ESAM actually did mock people saying "oh, but Pika has no results" and exclaiming that last night was the result.

Fatality doesn't believe in Falcon to the same extent as an ESAM or VoiD. Then finally, you have to consider it like this - if you don't fiercely believe your character is good, why play them at all?

---

As for Tweek - honestly, top PTs have been saying for the longest time that Ivy is a gimmick. I don't know of that makes her worse than Zard, but... Zard at least does really well in the situation he comes out in.

 

[Minordeth]

I decided to see how Void’s Sheik actually did against only his PGR opponents - quantitatively. This is not including the match with Leon because A.) I forgot about it, B.) he used mostly Pichu, and C.) Bowser either dies incredibly early or incredibly late, and takes stocks in much the same way - it makes numbers weird.

- Anyway, the average percent that Void took a stock among Tweek, WaDi, and Yeti was 125%.

- Between those three, the average percent that they took a stock against Void was 122.5%.

- Void’s opponents only lived past 150% three times.

- More often than not, Void tended to lose games because his opponents capitalized on one or more over-extensions or technical flubs (e.g. missed techs).

- Void had little issue wracking up damage, although most of his damage came from frame trap extensions, whiff punishes, and ledge trapping as opposed to straight combos.

- More than once, he kept his opponent in disadvantage for almost a minute.

Basically, Sheik didn’t seem to have a real problem either killing or dealing damage.

Void tended to play aggressively, and went for set ups and hard reads far more often than I expected. It’s almost as if he was playing with both something to prove, and a little more uncontrolled and free form than he did in Smash 4.

 

[blackghost]

Banjo DThrow wouldn't carry a single character in the roster, chief.

Actually, reverse-B Rear Egg isn't even his best vortex breaker. It's probably his best pure reversal option as it's more likely to lead into a meatier confirm, but if he just wants to break the chain, UAir is the go-to move.

disagree. having a kill confirm from a grab on a character like banjo is extremely important. banjo kills essentially in three ways wonderwing, backthrow, and dthrow. backthrow is stage position-dependent. wonderwing has limited use., thus leaves d throw as the most reliable setup. securing kills at a reasonable percentage is extremely important. a lot of the kills banjo got over the weekend from evenly skilled players came from dthrows.

 

[NotLiquid]

disagree. having a kill confirm from a grab on a character like banjo is extremely important. banjo kills essentially in three ways wonderwing, backthrow, and dthrow. backthrow is stage position-dependent. wonderwing has limited use., thus leaves d throw as the most reliable setup. securing kills at a reasonable percentage is extremely important. a lot of the kills banjo got over the weekend from evenly skilled players came from dthrows.

Banjo's DThrow is non-guaranteed to kill confirm at sub ~150%. At kill percents, the grab is a 50/50 because Banjo needs to guess whether the opponent is going to do a slow mash (in which case Banjo needs to up smash) or a quick mash (in which case Banjo needs to up tilt). At best, that puts his DThrow at Snake level. Decent to have, a mixup option at kill percents, and a kill option at critical percents, but if you're getting "carried" by it, you need to either start looking at the character's other tools or start shopping for another character.

Any of the other options, including FAir, up smash and BAir offer more consistency for your buck and tend to kill just as often, sometimes in more practical, safer circumstances. Wonderwing having a limited stock isn't even that much of an issue unless you've completely lost momentum and are at a stock disadvantage.

 

[ZephyrZ]

On a different note, I don't know if Tweek is sarcastic or not but it seems he thinks that Ivysaur is a really bad character:

I don't know Tweek well enough in order to tell if that's sarcasm or not...Maybe he just wants Ivy buffed, so PT is even more obnoxious.

As for Tweek - honestly, top PTs have been saying for the longest time that Ivy is a gimmick. I don't know of that makes her worse than Zard, but... Zard at least does really well in the situation he comes out in.

I mean, I lot of us have been saying "lol she's not even that good learn the match up" as players with obnoxious characters tend to. Personally always thought Ivy was a little overrated, but I never thought they were "bad".

It really is kind of a hot take for Tweek.

I still do find it disheartening to hear though, since Ivy is my weakest link and I've spent this past week focusing on practicing her specifically. The sad thing though is that I do see where he's coming from. While I do think Ivy's neutral is better then he seems to, Ivy does kind of fall apart when her opponent gets in.

Still though, Ivy is the only member of the trio with a solid projectile and huge disjoints, so that character will always have a solidified role in the team. She's always going to be relevant in a ton of match ups, even if she can't always team carry as well as people think.

 

[RonNewcomb]

Void’s opponents only lived past 150% three times

So, you said "only" like you're editorializing. Isn't living past 150 even once like super rare outside of Sheik, Yink and Duck Hunt?

If you're trying to undercut the she-cant-kill meme it sounded like you sabotaged your own argument. Nani?

 

[|RK|]

So, you said "only" like you're editorializing. Isn't living past 150 even once like super rare outside of Sheik, Yink and Duck Hunt?

If you're trying to undercut the she-cant-kill meme it sounded like you sabotaged your own argument. Nani?

Not that rare. Leo's Joker has seen worse days than that on a more regular basis.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

I don’t think it’s more so Ivy isn’t great rather than Ivy is incredibly linear and as people especially Tweek level see linear more it becomes less and less effective.

But the whole idea of PT is to change characters on the fly, so it makes sense Ivy is linear as it encourages you to use all three Pokémon rather than 70% Ivy.

I just can’t call a character with a projectile that trivializes a fair bit of MUs. Leads into the absurdity that is up air, has what’s still absurd in down air and has a simple rather very effective way to quickly rack damage up and kill a bad character.

 

[Rocketjay8]

Not that rare. Leo's Joker has seen worse days than that on a more regular basis.

Isn't Joker as heavy as inkling? like 93 in weight?

 

[NotLiquid]

Isn't Joker as heavy as inkling? like 93 in weight?

Lighter than Inkling by one unit, actually.

 

[Minordeth]

So, you said "only" like you're editorializing. Isn't living past 150 even once like super rare outside of Sheik, Yink and Duck Hunt?

If you're trying to undercut the she-cant-kill meme it sounded like you sabotaged your own argument. Nani?

No. I should have added that even among PT, Mega, and ROB, Void’s Sheik lived to above 150% three times as well.

I’m using 150% as sort of an arbitrary cut off to look for failure to secure a stock at a reasonable percent. There was a post a while back, towards the beginning of the meta, examining the time-to-kill among three top players. 120% and under was generally what Leo and occasionally Nairo secured stocks at.

Since then - and I haven’t put the numbers together for all this yet - top players generally secure stocks at around 120% and under. This obviously is a function of character, player, and matchup, and an opponent living well outside that range speaks to both as well.

It’s a broad point of data, of course.

Drawing more specific conclusions would require more work, but the general idea is that Void’s stock sealing and damage output with Sheik was in line with the average of the three PGR players using other high/top tier characters.

If Sheik was deficient in either damage accrual or stock sealing, you would expect to see something along the lines of a significantly higher stock sealing percent for Void.

You could argue that his skills largely carried Sheik, but actual analysis of his play undermines that argument

 

[The_Bookworm]

Here is the updated Orion Stats: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1AJs-mj5TTdkmkl7nhj4twJymVPTLTUdT0MBToL1cxDs/htmlview


Notable Changes:
and swapped spots. Previously 11th and 7th, receptively, R.O.B. is now 7th and ZSS is now 11th. No Marss or any other notable ZSS player this weekend definitely harmed her spot, while R.O.B. had Zackray win Sumabato SP 8 with mostly him and 8BitMan and WaDi placing high at Glitch 7.
Fox has predictably rose up from 13th to 10th after his amazing performance this weekend.
Bowser has notably rose up this weekend to 19th, outplacing who is now at 20th.
and nice performance this weekend puts the two at 21st and 22nd, respectively. However, this notably drops to 23rd.
Before, Chrom and Roy where next to eachother on the rankings, but now there is a 3 spot gap.
and has (almost) swapped places this weekend. Previously 33rd and 37th, respectively, the Belmonts is now at 37th and Hero is now at 34th.
I am a bit confused on where Hero got this spike in results considering that he was pretty much absent at Glitch 7, and komorikiri's performance alone can't possibly result in this increase.
and both return to top 40. Link is currently tied with at 38th, while TLink is at 40th. YLink remains at 31st place like last time.
Villager got a significant increase in the rankings this weekend after kept's performance. Previously 51st with , he is now 41st with .
PPlant got a notable rise this weekend after two 33rd placements at Glitch 7. Previously 50th, it is now at 43rd.
A bit confused on why it increased by that much, but okay then I guess? Orion Stats is weird sometimes...
, , and dropped a notable amount this weekend. Previously 40th, 42nd, and 43rd (with ), respectively, they are now 45th, 46th, and 47th (with Ryu) this weekend.
In a predicable turn of events, Sheik rose a considerable amount this weekend. Previously 56th, she is now at 50th place with .
Bowser Jr. also rose a notable amount after this weekend. Previously 64th, he is now at 57th with .
Banjo's first week in the rankings started pretty good. They are previously last place, but the duo is now at 66th place.
Unless Banjo makes consistent major showings, it is probably going to lag behind Hero throughout the season, due to debuting later in the season, and having lower representation due to multiple factors (debuting later, having less abusable tools at low level play, being objectively less "fun", etc.).


And that is it for the major rankings changes. Thank goodness I had a window with the previous version open so I can make accurate statistical information.
On a final note, due to 's rise, is now the worst ranked character in the Orion Stats, and I don't really see this change anytime soon.

 

[Arthur97]

Banjo's first week in the rankings started pretty good. They are previously last place, but the duo is now at 66th place.
Unless Banjo makes consistent major showings, it is probably going to lag behind Hero throughout the season, due to debuting later in the season, and having lower representation due to multiple factors (debuting later, having less abusable tools at low level play, being objectively less "fun", etc.).

How can you say "objectively" more fun in this scenario?

 

[The_Bookworm]

How can you say "objectively" more fun in this scenario?

A lot of players, especially low level players, like to play or fool around with Hero due to his powerful spells and somewhat addicting RNG elements.

However, I think I meant to say "subjectively" (I forgot the difference between subjectively and objectively), so oops.

 

[Rizen]

Here are my thoughts on the Orion Stats' placements:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1AJs-mj5TTdkmkl7nhj4twJymVPTLTUdT0MBToL1cxDs/htmlview

's managed to hold on to top ranking despite little top player rep. He's probably very popular at mid levels, I know he is in my region.
I have to admit Joker's proven to be a top tier. Although I do think his placement is elevated by MKLeo and the snowball effect. IMO Jokers about as good as Chroy but I also think Chroy are underrated (see below).
's as good as ever. I was saying he's top 5 months ago.
's also better than I thought. I fell in the trap of underrating characters like PT and Joker because YL has good MUs vs them imo. His ranking is elevated by being the most popular character so I don't think he's quite as good as Orion stats suggest. Maybe top 15.
How much does Palu have to do to be taken seriously as a top 7 character?!
are all preforming as expected. Olimar took a hit from nerfs but is still really good. Like I said, Fox isn't going anywhere.
take these characters seriously, that includes Ness. They're all knocking on top tier's door and IMO Lucina is top tier but under represented due to being basic to play.
all look pretty good where they are, landing in high tier. The latter 2 are not secret top tiers.
are under ranked due to their player base being split between them. They're different enough to not be ranked together yet similar enough that you could easily play the other if you played one. Bottom of top tier imo.
mid tiers with extremely talented players elevating their results.
don't underestimate their buffs. They're both probably lower high tiers. The meta favors strong pokes and advantage states more than neutral because everything's so damn safe anyway.
he still gets some results but it's been shown time after time he is unlikely to place top 8 solo in major tournaments. I've said a lot YL does well as a CP character. Mr.R using him might give YL a little boost. Tweek's YL seems out of practice and has lost the few times he used him. IMO He could be a top 25 character with the proper rep but most of his recent results have been little things from players who aren't top 100. Bottom of high tier. He's too undertuned to be really good.

(Skipping some characters)
's lucky to have Debuz.
's lost a ton of reps after the nerfs but still much better than his rank suggests. High tier.
's going to climb up the rankings but he started off mid season.
Other characters are very much a threat but somebody has to be at the bottom of the list. They'll make splashes here and there.

(I'm going on vacation tomorrow so if I don't respond, that's why.)

 

[$.A.F.]

Is like I’ve been saying a clear high tier who only seems to be going up. He’s above both the “secret top tier” characters like Rizen mentioned and that really goes to show just how nice he is. With a rep like Leon he’s not going anywhere.

The Savior off the gaming industry has become an even larger plague upon Ultimate. Personal bias aside, ROB is definitely establishing himself at worst as a gatekeeper. Even if his disadvantage is bad, there isn’t much else he’s really bad at. Also having the most BS in the game except for maybe Hero (except his is unintentional) isn’t hurting him. His zoning is great, his specials and aerials are all good, Nair is ridiculous, Side B kills at 30, down tilt is undoubtedly the best of its kind IMO, etc. This character is underrated and even ignoring the stats him being top tier one day wouldn’t surprise me.

Will never suck and never has and as far as I can tell, never will even in any future installments. Flip Kick May be considerably better than a good portion of her kit but it’s not her only good move like people like to pretend. Nair, Boost Kick, Up Air, Down Smash, Up Smash etc. Are all amazing moves that at least ten characters would kill to have. Still (arguably) top 5 IMO.

HOW IS STILL NUMBER ONE. He has nobody anymore as far as top players. I get how popular he is at mid level and his early placements from Zackray, but I’m still baffled. As for my thoughts on the character, he’s definitely not top 5 IMO but certainly top 10.

Is still slept on. This character is mad good. There’s a reason two reps are top 25 players in the world. Projectiles, Combos, Recovery, Set ups, Hydrant etc.

IMO is overrated severely. He’s a top tier no doubt but he is NOT a contender for best in the game at all in my opinion. Maybe it’s just [NAME REDACTED]’s ban but he is not dominating jack. Like at all. Salem won that tournament and otherwise he’s just been..not doing much. Maybe it’s just Ult being balanced but every previous best character or contender was much more dominant. Lately Snake hasn’t done anything to make anyone see him as more than just another top tier.


Isn’t amazing or anything, but not bottom 5. He gets 60 off a grab, has a frame 6(?) up smash, a safe on shield f smash etc. Young Eevey definitely don’t play either. He is a character who has his issues but his OrionStats rank is definitely accurate IMO and he could rise in the future.

Is a character y’all already know my thoughts on. An underrated mid tier with some utterly ridiculous moves and some great matchups against good characters and some horrible matchups against meh ones. Hella slept on and his rank about reflects my opinion maybe a couple spots one way or the other.

 

[Lacrimosa]

mid tiers with extremely talented players elevating their results.
don't underestimate their buffs. They're both probably lower high tiers. The meta favors strong pokes and advantage states more than neutral because everything's so damn safe anyway.

The same probably goes for characters like or .
All of them are pretty similar on the PGR stat and they all have at least one player that is more than able to give the top of the top a run for their money if not more. Thing is that these players really rarely compete: Juuuul, Ven, T or quiK/YB aren't players that are attending a lot of tournaments. At least when you compare it to players like Raito or Tea who you see frequently.
That's probably the case for even more characters that are around the 40th rank on the OrionStat, however these characters have players that come easily to mind.

As for Wolf: Anyone that follows the French smash scene knows that nobody is maining him there except Greil.
The other player that play him, most prominently Ogey (Falcon main), have him as a secondary. He's probably the best character to play when your main doesn't really work.