Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Thinkaman]

Ding ding! I took enough damage from off-topic patch speculation that my mod KO meter is full! Let's hope no one does any unsafe actions.

 

[G. Stache]

Accept the dark truth: Perceptions of "balance" are primarily social phenomenon.

This sort of thing is true of many economic and technological affairs in our lives, tbqh.

I guess if you want to bring the concept of balance into that kind of light then you’re completely right, but I’m just a simple kind of guy who likes talking about smash bros on the internet, and I still stand by my last point that whether EVO is played on patch 3.1 or 4.0, it’s gonna be a really good tournament to watch. Balance patches are perfectly fine and have been healthy for the game. But being too reliant on them to find enjoyment out of smash seems like the start of a toxic mentality imo.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

The matter of playing on 3.1 or another version at EVO isn’t a matter of how good the patch is change wise but rather stability. To prevent the chance of some game breaking bug, glitch or broken character (broken as it doesn’t work not over powered like Diddy (iirc) grab not working after a patch in 4). It is much safer to play on a version of the game you know is stable then update hundreds of Switches a few days before the tournament without anyone having had a chance to make sure it’s stable. Unless the patch drops like tomorrow I don’t expect them to update to the latest version

 

[NotLiquid]

The matter of playing on 3.1 or another version at EVO isn’t a matter of how good the patch is change wise but rather stability. To prevent the chance of some game breaking bug, glitch or broken character (broken as it doesn’t work not over powered like Diddy (iirc) grab not working after a patch in 4). It is much safer to play on a version of the game you know is stable then update hundreds of Switches a few days before the tournament without anyone having had a chance to make sure it’s stable. Unless the patch drops like tomorrow I don’t expect them to update to the latest version

They'll only use 4.0 if it drops today. The patch cutoff is the 17th, which from my recollection of previous EVOs is actually cutting it kinda close this time around. That said unless 4.0 is shadowdropped tonight (which is looking less likely if Joker's release is the time pattern they're following) then it ain't happening.

I suspect Nintendo might not want to put out a major content update on the final Splatfest weekend (which has actual wide scale marketing in Japan), but yesterday's July video definitely puts the update within a two week proximity.

Anyway, in actual news, Defend The North is happening this weekend. This'll be the last national before EVO, and quite a few top players will be attending, including Dabuz, Samsora, ANTi (who notably missed EVO registration and may not attend), Light, and Marss. Apparently Light wanted Cosmos to attend but he's bunkered himself into the hyperbolic time chamber.

 

[KirbySquad101]

Speaking of which, a Twitter post was made about which Japanese players will be attending EVO:

Japanese Ultimate players attending EVO part 1: Suinoko, Rikuya, Atelier, Abadango, CaptainJack, J-Snake, Shogun, Kome, Oji, Lea, Eim, Mr.II, Halo, HIKARU, Nietono, Rotsuku, Zackray, Masashi, Huto, Raito, el, Mao, Kameme, T, Umeki, takera, Picricacid, kept, Kei, Pon, ZAKI, Gackt

— Justin (juddy96) (@juddy_96) July 16, 2019

Notable names missing are Ri-ma , Sigma , Lv. 1 , OCEAN , DIO , KEN , Tsu , Tea , YB , Rizesau, Choco (if there's any more, feel free to add to the list).

Jeebus, poor Toon Link, this is his one big chance to shine in the US, and three of his biggest names from Japan end up not attending EVO.

 

[Lacrimosa]

Speaking of which, a Twitter post was made about which Japanese players will be attending EVO:

Japanese Ultimate players attending EVO part 1: Suinoko, Rikuya, Atelier, Abadango, CaptainJack, J-Snake, Shogun, Kome, Oji, Lea, Eim, Mr.II, Halo, HIKARU, Nietono, Rotsuku, Zackray, Masashi, Huto, Raito, el, Mao, Kameme, T, Umeki, takera, Picricacid, kept, Kei, Pon, ZAKI, Gackt

— Justin (juddy96) (@juddy_96) July 16, 2019

Notable names missing are Ri-ma , Sigma , Lv. 1 , OCEAN , DIO , KEN , Tsu , Tea , and Choco (if there's any more, feel free to add to the list).

Jeebus, poor Toon Link, this is his one big chance to shine in the US, and three of his biggest names from Japan end up not attending EVO.

Is Rizeasu notable? Guess we won't get random action then :v.
Also, what about Shuton?

 

[Rizen]

I'd like to say he is because of massive bias but he's in a very weird spot right now.

He was hyped up in the beginning. Salem took to him and even claimed top tier potential. But then he slowly stopped using him for someone who does the job better (Snake). And, as I predicted, so did many other players, some for Young Link, who is most definitely a much better version of the past Smash Links. There's a very minimal amount of top players using Link and it's likely because his flaws are starting to be realized.

I think he could be high tier if players really pushed him; maybe lower end of high tier. But I get the feeling he'll fall off eventually. T could prove me wrong though.

is in a weird place. I've used him a lot more recently and he seems better than middle tiers like Pit or Ridley but also worse than high tiers like ROB. The frame data nerfs were unnecessary. Link's good if he can play a mid range game but characters who can do it better or shut him down () give him a lot of trouble imo.

I actually noticed something with Orion. The link points to the "TTS Page and Character Results-Phase 01" which I noticed had been very, stale these last couple of weeks, with no changes. If you go down to the list below where the arrows are, you can move over to "TTS Page and Character Results-Phase 02" and see some different changes.

For example Pokemon Trainer has top results along with Snake. Of course this is only a handful of data being gathered on this particular section. Little Mac is a whopping #56ish but if you were to combine his Phase 02 data with Phase 01, he'd literally jump up "a spot" on the old list. The thing is I don't know know how much of the "Phase 02 Data" if any, has been put into "Phase 01" or if Phase 02 is completely separate from the initial result data.

Some characters can make some pretty big jumps if that data is completely separate.

I didn't notice that; it threw my numbers off. I wonder why they started a second phase. It's important to look at long term results over short term and this makes it harder :/

 

[Iridium]

Is Rizeasu notable? Guess we won't get random action then :v.
Also, what about Shuton?

Shuton's going.

I'm also interested to see what YOC could pull off. Him, Masashi and Sparg0 are most of the best Clouds going out there. And I believe this is Masashi's first time coming to the US at all, so I wonder if his experience in Japan will pay off.

is in a weird place. I've used him a lot more recently and he seems better than middle tiers like Pit or Ridley but also worse than high tiers like ROB. The frame data nerfs were unnecessary. Link's good if he can play a mid range game but characters who can do it better or shut him down () give him a lot of trouble imo.

I didn't notice that; it threw my numbers off. I wonder why they started a second phase. It's important to look at long term results over short term and this makes it harder :/

It's definitely a lot easier to shut him down at close range just because he doesn't have many tools to deal with that. The nerf to his jab's start-up still does confuse me as to why it was needed, as it's already noticeably punishable when blocked anyway.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Holy crap, Takera is going.

I have a reason to watch EVO now.

Well other than Samsho.

 

[MH-Jin]

Speaking of which, a Twitter post was made about which Japanese players will be attending EVO:

Japanese Ultimate players attending EVO part 1: Suinoko, Rikuya, Atelier, Abadango, CaptainJack, J-Snake, Shogun, Kome, Oji, Lea, Eim, Mr.II, Halo, HIKARU, Nietono, Rotsuku, Zackray, Masashi, Huto, Raito, el, Mao, Kameme, T, Umeki, takera, Picricacid, kept, Kei, Pon, ZAKI, Gackt

— Justin (juddy96) (@juddy_96) July 16, 2019

Notable names missing are Ri-ma , Sigma , Lv. 1 , OCEAN , DIO , KEN , Tsu , Tea , and Choco (if there's any more, feel free to add to the list).

Jeebus, poor Toon Link, this is his one big chance to shine in the US, and three of his biggest names from Japan end up not attending EVO.

Protobanham , best Lucina main in the world is not listed

He had an amazing showing recently, getting 2nd in umebura major and top 16 at ceo (lost to MKLeo and Nairo). Notably took MKLeo to game 3 last stock

 

[KirbySquad101]

Funny how we're talking about T and Link at the moment; it's gonna be interesting to see how far he gets with him at EVO.

Is Rizeasu notable? Guess we won't get random action then :v.
Also, what about Shuton?

Ah, my bad; oh yeah, I forgot to mention there's a second part of the tweet that lists the rest of the Japanese players attending.

Protobanham , best Lucina main in the world is not listed

He had an amazing showing recently, getting 2nd in umebura major and top 16 at ceo (lost to MKLeo and Nairo). Notably took MKLeo to game 3 last stock

Oh dang, he isn't? I could've sworn he was on the list, I must've missed that. :0

If so, that's gonna be a major blow to Lucina's representation. I forgot if Mr E is attending or not (I imagine he most likely is).

I'm also interested to see what YOC could pull off. Him, Masashi and Sparg0 are most of the best Clouds going out there. And I believe this is Masashi's first time coming to the US at all, so I wonder if his experience in Japan will pay off.

YOC's definitely a solid player, but his performances at Japan tournaments always seem inconsistent to me, kind of like ESAM lol I am hoping he manages to get far though.

Masashi and Sparg0 are definitely good representation for , Masashi seems to have a pretty solid track record for the most part (outside of playing 33rd at Sumabato SP 6).

 

[DungeonMaster]

Holy crap, Takera is going
I have a reason to watch EVO now
Well other than Samsho.

Agreed, a pity no YB. Samsho is awesome, I predict hype moments.

 

[KakuCP9]

I wish I had a PS4 so I could embrace death. Instead, I shall embrace death vicariously through the others while watching EVO.

 

[SwagGuy99]

Plant's Up-Air hitbox should actually cover the whole swing rather then ending in the middle,

In general, giving plant less landing lag on his aerials and slightly better hitboxes on his aerials and up tilt would buff him significantly. His speed, weight, projectiles, recovery. and most of the rest of his moveset doesn't have to be changed at all TBH.

 

[MH-Jin]

Funny how we're talking about T and Link at the moment; it's gonna be interesting to see how far he gets with him at EVO.



Ah, my bad; oh yeah, I forgot to mention there's a second part of the tweet that lists the rest of the Japanese players attending.



Oh dang, he isn't? I could've sworn he was on the list, I must've missed that. :0

If so, that's gonna be a major blow to Lucina's representation. I forgot if Mr E is attending or not (I imagine he most likely is).



YOC's definitely a solid player, but his performances at Japan tournaments always seem inconsistent to me, kind of like ESAM lol I am hoping he manages to get far though.

Masashi and Sparg0 are definitely good representation for , Masashi seems to have a pretty solid track record for the most part (outside of playing 33rd at Sumabato SP 6).

I really wanted to see Protobanham play against the top 10 more. I think he has the skill to take sets off them.

It's good Mr.E is going. He may be able to replicate his previous Evo run and make top 8 again, especially since he's on the rise lately

Also excited for Eim and Kameme, as they may be repping Sheik at Evo as well

 

[Lacrimosa]

Just ealized that only one Zelda I know goes to Evo and that's Ven.
Well, I hope he'll make it far. He has home advantage in Vegas at the very least.

Well, R.I.P for broader presentation.

 

[Iridium]

I really wanted to see Protobanham play against the top 10 more. I think he has the skill to take sets off them.

It's good Mr.E is going. He may be able to replicate his previous Evo run and make top 8 again, especially since he's on the rise lately

Also excited for Eim and Kameme, as they may be repping Sheik at Evo as well

Proto is going. He's on the entrant list I saw at smash.gg.

I think juddy separated the list there.

 

[Tri Knight]

Funny how we're talking about T and Link at the moment; it's gonna be interesting to see how far he gets with him at EVO.

It was my fault. I bring him up a lot.

But I'm really looking forward to watching T. He's legit the only Link player I can really look at for top tier performance at a tournament this big. He's one of the best. I've learned quite a bit of tricks through watching him. I'm hoping he gets far.

A few Toon Links on the Japanese side too. Maybe they can show us a thing or two and create some interest in him.

 

[Minordeth]

Protobanham is going. He is listed in the second part of that tweet.

Also, Seven, probably the best Japanese Falco player is going as well.

Actually, a question for the board: what techs/combos/discoveries in Smash have changed how a character is either played, changed MUs for that character, or changed a character’s perceived viability in the meta?

I’m thinking stuff like wobbling, the centralizing kill confirms in Smash 4, and so on.

 

[Lacrimosa]

Protobanham is going. He is listed in the second part of that tweet.

Also, Seven, probably the best Japanese Falco player is going as well.

Actually, a question for the board: what techs/combos/discoveries in Smash have changed how a character is either played, changed MUs for that character, or changed a character’s perceived viability in the meta?

I’m thinking stuff like wobbling, the centralizing kill confirms in Smash 4, and so on.

Displaced phantom makes every match-up much easier where the opponent has a projectile with hitstun. Like, Falco and Young Link would be terrifying but with it, the MU looks way better for her. It also helps against fast swordies (well, there's only one really and that's Roy).
This tech is MU dependant because you give up some stage control by moving back so it's only really useful in very few MUs but it turn the MU into even or maybe around, like in Falco's case.

 

[Rizen]

Displaced phantom .

How's that work?

 

[Lacrimosa]

How's that work?

Uhh, dunno :3.
It's fairly tricky to pull off at first but here's the video (around 10:50) most/all Zeldas have it from. There's more stuff in that video that looks fairly useful...

 

[KakuCP9]

Protobanham is going. He is listed in the second part of that tweet.

Also, Seven, probably the best Japanese Falco player is going as well.

Actually, a question for the board: what techs/combos/discoveries in Smash have changed how a character is either played, changed MUs for that character, or changed a character’s perceived viability in the meta?

I’m thinking stuff like wobbling, the centralizing kill confirms in Smash 4, and so on.

I think what's affecting a character's viability atm is how players are warming up to game's movement and options since when Ike was terrorizing the meta, everyone was still learning how to play neutral and such which allowed Ike to be hard-carried by meme air. As everyone started to get more control over the movement and buffer systems, people started learn how play around other people's threat zones which caused Ike to fall behind since he isn't as good in that area due to his rigid mobility and frame data.
Despite this, people still gravitate toward combo heavy characters whose positive state is alot like S4 where you distill it to efficient and reliable low/mid percent combos and a confirm to checkmate your opponents, it's just that it all doesn't revolve around grab (mostly) and the confirm/ combo starters have just been shifted around (i.e Falcon). It's also why characters like Lucina and Wolf have fallen out of the limelight atm (even though they still have impressive results outside of top level play). The only tech I can see as meta-changing would stuff like the instant pivot grab since some characters still have really buff pivot grab ranges and the ability to use it while walking forward would be a huge boon for whiff-punishing. Other than that, it's just a matter of optimizing game plans in each game state since I don't think there's going to be some magical tech that's going to reshape the meta landscape, though patches might shake things up every now and again.

 

[NotLiquid]

Protobanham is going. He is listed in the second part of that tweet.

Also, Seven, probably the best Japanese Falco player is going as well.

Actually, a question for the board: what techs/combos/discoveries in Smash have changed how a character is either played, changed MUs for that character, or changed a character’s perceived viability in the meta?

I’m thinking stuff like wobbling, the centralizing kill confirms in Smash 4, and so on.

I can only speak for my own main but Inkling's up throw/up air confirm has done a non-insignificant effort in mitigating one of the only major issues Inkling really deals with, despite the fact that it's not a viable option for every MU due to varying percentage windows - it doesn't really help the Olimar or Wario MU for instance. That said, there are some large windows in actual top tier characters; certain characters like Joker and Snake have really wide windows for the confirm (Snake in particular has a whooping 29% window, which doesn't help the fact that he already kind of loses the MU based on off-stage vulnerability and Inkling having a "cancel grenades" button in the form of Splattershot, which is still a somewhat underrated special imo).

In general, up throw has significantly changed the game for the character. Most of Inkling's best strings come from aerials (*cough* BAir), and she's privileged enough that her throws net a whole bunch of reward despite a fairly stumpy grab range. The foresight they seem to have had with the character is kind of impressive to me. I kinda sorta fear what would happen if she'd get nerfed on any of these aspects since Inkling is one of those characters that really stands as a testament to how well Smash is balanced.

 

[PK Gaming]

is in a weird place. I've used him a lot more recently and he seems better than middle tiers like Pit or Ridley but also worse than high tiers like ROB. The frame data nerfs were unnecessary. Link's good if he can play a mid range game but characters who can do it better or shut him down () give him a lot of trouble imo.

I didn't notice that; it threw my numbers off. I wonder why they started a second phase. It's important to look at long term results over short term and this makes it harder :/

Minor nitpick: Pit and debatably Ridley are nowhere near the "established" mid tier, imo, and I actually think the former is one of the few examples of a character who's just outright mediocre.

As for BoTW Link, I don't like where he is atm. I think he's free-falling pretty hard in the metagame, as his weaknesses become more pronounced and his match-ups against the stronger characters get worse and worse. I don't think the remote bomb makes up for his fairly slow frame data (incredible Nair aside) and god awful recovery.

 

[Minordeth]

So, I suppose I should elucidate on the background of the question a little, since I’m specifically talking about character specific tech (like wobbling) rather than cast-wide tech (like wavedashing).

A few days ago, MetaofSmash - a rather great General/Falco YouTube channel - posted a video describing a set up based around a tech that significantly impacts Falco.

To break it down, the core tech isn’t new. It’s basically an instant double jump into an up-Air, followed by a drag down Nair into a regrab or utilt.

So why is this a rather significant set up for Falco?

1.) It’s a true combo off of a grab that works at low to low-mid percent.

2.) It can set up early edge guard opportunities.

Let me expand on that a bit:

Falco already has some of the highest damage output in the game due to his combo game and vortex. Now, he has a true combo on all of the cast off his grab, that literally does over 50% at a minimum, and easily much more.

It also gives one of the best edge-guarders in the game an early way to send his opponent off stage.

As it works with all platform stages, the only place where it has no impact is FD. And, a Falco could simply ban that.

As mentioned in the video, this set up is not widely used at the high and top level. Active is the only player I know of that implements this set up, and as a result, his neutral is quite a bit different than basically every other Falco.

Why? Because before, his grab game was secondary to Utilt as the main combo starter, and his most significant damage capability came once an opponent was low mid or higher in percent.

As I’ve personally seen, neutral becomes a different beast. Opponents try to play keep away and anti-grab, as much as possible, which, of course, opens up other opportunities for the bird to capitalize on.

In short:

Outside of FD, Falco can wrack up Luigi-levels of damage off of one grab while simultaneously putting the opponent in a severely disadvantaged state. In two to three neutral wins, Falco can set up for Utilt-Bair, which is also true.

Fortunately for everyone, it’s still locked behind Falco’s awkward neutral.

 

[MH-Jin]

Thanks a lot everyone for correcting me on Protobanham. Pretty relieved that he's going!

In terms of attack cancel, it's pretty integral for a lot of kill setups, combos and overall spacing. Depending on the angle/Di, you may need to attack cancel instead of instant rar for Chroy jab to bair, especially at the earlier percents since attack cancel doesn't move you forward as much. Also for swordies who have super safe and arcing bairs, it's great for doing diagonally placed platform punishes/pressure

It's also super useful for catching close jump ins with Palu, so she can Nair fortress and cancel forward momentum.

Don't even need to mention Rosa's attack cancel Luma shenanigans as well

 

[Deleted member]

How do we know if characters (e.g.: Mii Gunners) are going to be showing up? All we know are the players' names showing up.

 

[Nebunera]

i don't know why but i feel like they are going to nerf wario in the next balance patch

 

[Deleted member]

i don't know why but i feel like they are going to nerf wario in the next balance patch

He’s probably not going to get nerfed drastically. Even if you tone down one thing (make waft have more charge time/less knockback), he’s got a lot of other stuff to back him up.

 

[Tri Knight]

Minor nitpick: Pit and debatably Ridley are nowhere near the "established" mid tier, imo, and I actually think the former is one of the few examples of a character who's just outright mediocre.

As for BoTW Link, I don't like where he is atm. I think he's free-falling pretty hard in the metagame, as his weaknesses become more pronounced and his match-ups against the stronger characters get worse and worse. I don't think the remote bomb makes up for his fairly slow frame data (incredible Nair aside) and god awful recovery.

To be quite frank, the only thing that will hold him back IS his frame data. Really, that's it. That's including sword moves and even detonation.

The problem is, developers seem to think he's too versatile with his sword, weight, power, and pretty good zoning abili---

Oh wait, they got rid of his bomb so he can no longer zone nearly as effectively as others. So hes kind of stuck in between. Which wouldn't be so bad if he had on par frame data. I mean shoot, correct me if I'm wrong but I think he has the slowest jab in the game (besides maybe samus?).

 

[Djmarcus44]

How do we know if characters (e.g.: Mii Gunners) are going to be showing up? All we know are the players' names showing up.

Since a lot of people track results in the tournament thread, they are pretty good at matching characters to gamertags.

Tri Knight , Samus has a frame 3 jab. Characters with slower jabs than are characters like and .

Minordeth , I watched the active hop video, and I have been using the technique for a while to maximize Gunner's strong grab game. I am glad that it is in a video so that more players can optimize their combos in tournaments.

 

[Planty]

Protobanham is going. He is listed in the second part of that tweet.

Also, Seven, probably the best Japanese Falco player is going as well.

Actually, a question for the board: what techs/combos/discoveries in Smash have changed how a character is either played, changed MUs for that character, or changed a character’s perceived viability in the meta?

I’m thinking stuff like wobbling, the centralizing kill confirms in Smash 4, and so on.

I can only speak on , but I believe that her viability in this game is significantly affected by the existence of an old smash 4 tech that carried over to this game: Lunar Landing (abbreviated LL), where you input an aerial right before landing, causing Luma to perform the aerial while Rosalina is lagless.

Attack cancel (or Lunar Jump as Rosa players call it) might have been the more obvious choice and has even been mentioned a few posts up as being important to Rosa, but it carries nowhere near the influence that LL does on her.

LL, in essence, grants Rosalina access to frame data that she has no business having access to, a huge boon during any game state. In juggle/platform pressure situations for instance, she can try to hit the opponent with a rising SH uair/nair and if that whiffs or gets blocked, she can do LL uair to continue pressuring. This effectively means she can do 2 aerials per SH to pressure above her, letting her control the area above her head way better than she would otherwise.

As another example, in neutral, loves calling out jumps with rising SH nair. Should rising nair be called out or whiff, she can weave backwards and LL nair to cover her descent. Effectively 2 forward facing aerials in one short hop. How many characters can claim to do that in this game?

In disadvantage it has uses as well. Often when you are trying to land, your opponent might wait for you to throw out a landing aerial and whiff punish or punish OoS, extending their advantage and resetting a juggle/putting you offstage. This means that most characters trying to land have to choose whether or not to throw out a landing aerial. Rosalina doesn't have to worry about that because she can throw out lagless attacks on landing. LL bair is +14 on block and LL nair is +9, so she even gets a free grab if either of those options are shielded.

It's well accepted that Rosalina becomes a significantly worse character when Luma is dead. I'd argue the primary reason she becomes so much worse is simply because she loses the option to use lunar landings. That's how important the tech is to the character.

 

[Kung Fu Treachery]

Protobanham is going. He is listed in the second part of that tweet.

Also, Seven, probably the best Japanese Falco player is going as well.

Actually, a question for the board: what techs/combos/discoveries in Smash have changed how a character is either played, changed MUs for that character, or changed a character’s perceived viability in the meta?

I’m thinking stuff like wobbling, the centralizing kill confirms in Smash 4, and so on.

Hm, I can't think of much besides attack cancel for Ultimate thus far, which Fatality has said is essential for Falcon and is also effective for Roy and Chrom. I think Void and Leffen put a fair amount of time into Pichu's lightning loops at some point, but I don't know how big that was for the character.

One that could qualify from Melee: When did SDIing out of Fox's up-air become common? Up-throw into up-air is one of the biggest weapons Fox has against Puff, and mitigating it changes the matchup a lot, I think. I'm only a spectator in Melee, and I know Hungrybox doesn't get the SDI every time, but he gets it enough that it's not unusual. Turning a kill confirm out of grab (on a character that can't be edgegaurded) into essentially nothing, in a matchup between top tier characters, seems enormous from my vantage point. Every time Puff succeeds, that's a stock that Fox didn't take.

Leo's use of perfect pivot in Smash 4 probably contributed to putting Marth on the map in that game, though that wasn't Marth-specific tech. It just benefited him a lot due to his tipper mechanic.

Not exactly a single tech or discovery, but for a while in Smash 4, Diddy was widely believed to be a bad matchup for Mewtwo. Eventually, WaDi and other players developed a more campy style to fight Diddy, and it ended up being even, as I recall. Honestly, Diddy was much worse when he had to take the initiative in that game, in my opinion, so this development might have applied more broadly. I'm still a little afraid of the potential power of camping in Smash more generally, and very few players have actually pushed the limits of it.

 

[Anomika]

For Wario Waft, I think one good nerf to it would be reducing the knockback of the aerial version while still keeping it the same for the grounded one. That way you can't KO as easily with aerials but at the same time you still get highly rewarded if you make a read from like a roll or do a jab lock punish.

 

[Tri Knight]

Since a lot of people track results in the tournament thread, they are pretty good at matching characters to gamertags.

Tri Knight , Samus has a frame 3 jab. Characters with slower jabs than are characters like and .

Minordeth , I watched the active hop video, and I have been using the technique for a while to maximize Gunner's strong grab game. I am glad that it is in a video so that more players can optimize their combos in tournaments.

Oh stupid me, I was thinking of Samus's jab 2 for some reason.

 

[|RK|]

Imo, Rosa's biggest current issue (and I believe Dabuz has said the same) is her inability to seal a stock. She genuinely seems okay until it's time to find a kill.

There's a reason the Dabuz/Ally Grands was nearly an hour.

Well, multiple reasons, but that's a key one.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Imo, Rosa's biggest current issue (and I believe Dabuz has said the same) is her inability to seal a stock. She genuinely seems okay until it's time to find a kill.

There's a reason the Dabuz/Ally Grands was nearly an hour.

Well, multiple reasons, but that's a key one.

Another big issue holding her back (and honestly she could be high tier if this issue is addressed) is how easy it is to remove Luma.

In SSB4, there was a certain number of characters with the ability to somewhat dispose of Luma early, and it is considered a special thing to do. However in Ultimate, Luma gets launched so easily to the point where the ability the remove Luma easily is no longer considered a special thing. This issue is slightly alleviated thanks to 3.1.0 slightly lowering the respawn timer, but it is still easy to get rid of Luma.

 

[Tri Knight]

I'd have a higher opinion of the puppet master if her puppet could remain in play effectively. Rosa is not a bad character in design but Luma is dying way too quick. The lack of being able to take a good amount of hits or even recover is what's holding the two back imo. Theres a reason why players just go full aggro on Luma. It's just an extra step in demolishing Rosa.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I'd like to propose the question of how people think compares to as viewed through the lens of "how much of a weakness is this character's reliance on their unique resource/entity/what-have-you?"

Luma provides critical damage, range, and knockback to all of Rosalina's attacks, and opens up several techs such as Lunar Landing that let her create interesting setups and traps. While theoretically possible to keep it safe, actually doing so is unrealistic unless there's a massive skill gap.
Nana is...Nana. I'm not the right person to say much more than the obvious about this character, but this seems to be the strongest example of "feast or famine" in the game in this regard.
Completely relies on Pikmin, to the point that Solimar is just...not a character, but plucking new Pikmin is so fast and commitment-free that it doesn't seem like that much of a weakness anyway. They're pretty disposable.
Consumes his ammo (durability) for attacks whether he hits or not, which inherently limits his own momentum.
Like Robin, consumes a resource for several attacks no matter what, although her basic movement specs and aerial game make her less reliant on them in general. Also she can replenish her resource at will as long as she's on the ground, similar to Olimar.
I think he's the least hamstrung by this general design concept, despite Arsene being another self-limiting resource. (Limited by time, in this case.) He's simply not a bad character even without Arsene, and can artificially speed up his return with Rebel's Guard.