Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

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Imo, Rosa's biggest current issue (and I believe Dabuz has said the same) is her inability to seal a stock. She genuinely seems okay until it's time to find a kill.

There's a reason the Dabuz/Ally Grands was nearly an hour.

Well, multiple reasons, but that's a key one.
A trait she shares with :ultduckhunt:now sadly. You see it in sets with them both. Dabuz's Rosa and Raito can spend entire sets controlling and winning the netural same with smart use of their zoning tools, constantly outsmart and outplay the opponent. But then they get the them to near 200% damage and still struggle to close the stock, then they will lose stocks tragically early to such chesse as Wario's Waft or Snakes up-tilt and find themselves from controlling the match to being desperately behind in an instant.Feelsbadman
 
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A trait she shares with :ultduckhunt:now sadly. You see it in sets with them both. Dabuz's Rosa and Raito can spend entire sets controlling and winning the netural same with smart use of their zoning tools, constantly outsmart and outplay the opponent. But then they get the them to near 200% damage and still struggle to close the stock, then they will lose stocks tragically early and fall behind in an instant to such chesse as Wario's Waft or Snakes up-tilt. Feelsbadman
Doesn't even need to be something cheese. A well spaced aerial, tilt or aerial from most characters will do it.
I guess they needed to balance it but there is no reason why other zoners, like Olimar, are allowed to kill so insanely early. Make them at least somewhat similar in kill power.
 

The_Bookworm

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Fatality has showcased some new tech here. It is basically the combined power of numerous other
It makes Falcon come close to his teleport grab from SSB4, and other characters like Sonic, Ridley, and Chroy also benefits from this as well.



Btw, who let the Shulk main name this tech. lol
 

$.A.F.

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Doesn't even need to be something cheese. A well spaced aerial, tilt or aerial from most characters will do it.
I guess they needed to balance it but there is no reason why other zoners, like Olimar, are allowed to kill so insanely early. Make them at least somewhat similar in kill power.
So we want MORE Olimar esque characters? I honestly don’t think that’s a good idea for the meta of the game. Or at the very least the community will get to whining. Zoner top tiers with good kill power don’t really go down well with people and honestly overall tend to shut down more characters than any archetype when they are.
 
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So we want MORE Olimar esque characters? I honestly don’t think that’s a good idea for the meta of the game. Or at the very least the community will get to whining. Zoner top tiers with good kill power don’t really go down well with people and honestly overall tend to shut down more characters than any archetype when they are.
I wanted to say that the dog and Rosaluma (this character can stay bad if it were me but ok) are undertuned but that Olimar looks a bit too overtuned, shield issues aside. Just imagine him with a proper shield. Shuton's still killing it in Japan, although his results have gotten a bit more inconsistent.
They should fix his shield but reduce knockback, especially on Purple Pikmin.
 

KirbySquad101

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Jeebus, why does :ultbayonetta:'s jab have so much start-up? At least Link and DDD have disjoints on their jabs, wtf.

On the subject of :ultlink:, I don't really think he can ever truly experience "freefall" as long as he as a player as strong as T backing him up (I also don't think his recovery is terrible; Remote Bomb recovery is surprisingly hard to intercept due to Link basically flying towards the stage like a human catapult lol). At the same time, he is starting to fall dangerously close near the "upper mid tiers with that one amazing player backing them up" category (i.e. Maister with :ultgnw:, Elegant with :ultluigi:, etc.).

Actually, a question for the board: what techs/combos/discoveries in Smash have changed how a character is either played, changed MUs for that character, or changed a character’s perceived viability in the meta?

I’m thinking stuff like wobbling, the centralizing kill confirms in Smash 4, and so on.
In terms of :ultgnw:, it's pretty niche, but there is confirms/combo routs off of down throw that I haven't seen a lot of players pull off, particularly the down throw into delayed FF NAir setup:
.

It has niche set-ups, but it's definitely more consistent than trying to Judge immediately after a down throw, especially considering that down throw has much more knockback now. FFing NAir into another NAir into UAir nets him way more damage than just NAir into UAir (nearly ~50% to be exact). That is a pretty sweet deal for a guy with a huge disjointed grab.

For something a bit more interesting, here's a video on all of :ultrob:'s possible applications regarding a move that most people (including R.O.B. players themselves) seem to overlook in favor of Arm Rotor/DTilt: His UAir.

Here's a few takeaways I got from all the possible applications of his UAir, particularly FF UAir:

- Instead of doing the NAir/Gyro/NAir/Gyro combo when away from the ledge, one can NAir/Gyro, THEN grab Gyro/FF UAir while sliding forward to turn opponents to the other side. This makes his punish game consistently terrifying regardless of where R.O.B. is at, though this is hard to pull off.

- R.O.B. can use the aforementioned technique to "wobble" against certain characters back and forth, particularly tall characters such as :ultpalutena: and :ultfalcon:; although this is EXTREMELY hard to pull off the results are well worth it as R.O.B. can easily net about 60~80%, as well as a stock.

- R.O.B. can use this FF technique to net about 30~40% damage off of Gyro against characters at mid percents, giving him a strong punish game even at such percents.

- R.O.B. can use this FF technique as a mix-up KO option for when opponents are predicting a Gyro into USmash set-up; instead of going for throw down Gyro into USmash (which is honestly inconsistent all things considered), you can instead go for Gyro into FFUAir and THEN into USmash/FSmash/Arm Rotor depending on where the opponent is at. Arm Rotor is great for consistency, but FSmash is better at taking stocks at earlier percents, while USmash does a great job of killing just about anywhere on the stage. Hell, at higher percents, R.O.B. can just go for a FFUAir into another UAir for a KO confirm. Though this isn't guaranteed and hard to pull of, it gives R.O.B. even more KO setups for when edgeguarding and his usual shenanigans aren't working.

I don't know if this changes much, but from what I gathered, it gives R.O.B. an even more consistent and deadly punishing game than before (as if he needed it); the below video shows two clips (from 2:24 to 2:42) that show off some really good possible applications of this technique:

Doesn't even need to be something cheese. A well spaced aerial, tilt or aerial from most characters will do it.
I guess they needed to balance it but there is no reason why other zoners, like Olimar, are allowed to kill so insanely early. Make them at least somewhat similar in kill power.
To be honest, DH's zoning/trapping power is already arguably the best in the game (okay, this is a bit of a stretch, but at the very least, top 5), I don't want to imagine the monster with KO power on top of that lol.
 
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Soyaccino

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IMO several characters with a more unique play style in this game and been landed with too few kill options and as a result are just out right ignored too often.

DH is one of these as like was said above- getting the kill is just so tough as you have so many creative ways to rack up damage but few to close the deal. I’ve ended up with opponents on 200% before I can land a clean shot. By which time I’m knee deep in my second stock. Toon link is another.

Pray for Bowser Jr.
 

The_Bookworm

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Does :ultmetaknight:have trouble KOing? A lot of his tools have been either toned down or entirely removed (such as the up aerial and Shuttle Loop)
KO'ing with Meta Knight is weird. He pretty much has all of his KO tools from the previous game (including the new Mach Tornado), but his latter combos are harder to pull off due to the nerfs to the dash attack. Shuttle Loop is also harder to KO by itself (although it can still KO off the top).

MK is similar to Rosalina and Inkling: he can have a smooth or rough time KO'ing at seemingly random times.
 

Krysco

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I'd like to propose the question of how people think :ultrosalina: compares to :ulticeclimbers::ultolimar::ultrobin::ultinkling::ultjoker: as viewed through the lens of "how much of a weakness is this character's reliance on their unique resource/entity/what-have-you?"

:ultrosalina: Luma provides critical damage, range, and knockback to all of Rosalina's attacks, and opens up several techs such as Lunar Landing that let her create interesting setups and traps. While theoretically possible to keep it safe, actually doing so is unrealistic unless there's a massive skill gap.
:ulticeclimbers: Nana is...Nana. I'm not the right person to say much more than the obvious about this character, but this seems to be the strongest example of "feast or famine" in the game in this regard.
:ultolimar: Completely relies on Pikmin, to the point that Solimar is just...not a character, but plucking new Pikmin is so fast and commitment-free that it doesn't seem like that much of a weakness anyway. They're pretty disposable.
:ultrobin: Consumes his ammo (durability) for attacks whether he hits or not, which inherently limits his own momentum.
:ultinkling: Like Robin, consumes a resource for several attacks no matter what, although her basic movement specs and aerial game make her less reliant on them in general. Also she can replenish her resource at will as long as she's on the ground, similar to Olimar.
:ultjoker: I think he's the least hamstrung by this general design concept, despite Arsene being another self-limiting resource. (Limited by time, in this case.) He's simply not a bad character even without Arsene, and can artificially speed up his return with Rebel's Guard.
Noticed a surprising lack of mention to :ultcloud: and his Limit. Grants additional movement which is unique amongst the other resources you mentioned but also upgrades his specials which can be considered similar to others.

As for your question, Rosa relies less on her Luma than Popo does on Nana, Olimar does on Pikmin and even Robin does on his tomes. Rosa without Luma is obviously worse than Rosa with Luma but she still has functioning, albeit worse moves save for neutral and side special which simply stop working. Meanwhile, Popo gets literally every move nerfed without Nana for the rest of the stock, most notably his recovery, Olimar is very similar, only maintaining his recovery, whistle armor, nair, jab, tilts and dash attacks and Robin can end up without his recovery and finishers to his jab and imo a lesser deal is losing access to his specials and Levin moves. Inkling only misses out on neutral, side and down special along with the rapid jab while Joker just gains and loses kill power for the most part.

Rosa and Robin can try to play keep away till the timer on their tools allow them back while Olimar and Inkling need breathing room. Inkling has most of her moveset to allow for opportunities for said breathing room but Olimar only needs a single frame on the ground to get access to a single Pikmin. Joker just has it come and go throughout the match with every stock past the first being easier to get and if you lose it at high percent, you're pretty much only getting it back vs characters that have a hard time killing or if you manage to land a Rebel's Guard. Cloud can get it just from playing the game as well but can also charge it up himself and unlike Inkling and Olimar, doesn't need to be grounded for it.

In the end, I'd say Rosa's resource is less of a hindrance to her than those of ICies, Robin and Cloud as recovery is a pretty big deal. ICies can lose a stock, get an unlucky neutral exchange on the start of the next stock and lose Nana for it and the rest of that stock is permanently hindered. Robin won't use Elwind that often as it's only used for the rapid jab and up special but it has no hitbox to protect Robin and there can be times where you just die due to losing your recovery move. Cloud has a pretty bad recovery without Limit and with the time limit on it and the fact you gain it through giving and taking damage, Cloud can't 100% control when he has Limit and therefore when his recovery is good or not.

I'd say the other 3: Olimar, Inkling and Joker are less hindered by their's than Rosa is. Olimar only needing a single frame on the ground is more forgiving than Rosa's time limit and Inkling only loses a couple moves while Joker mostly just loses kill power.
 

SwagGuy99

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A character that I hardly see talked about on here is :ulticeclimbers:. So I'm going to share why I think they are really bad.

  1. Matchup spread. Almost every character has the tools to separate Ice Climbers easily and/or kill Nana at pretty early percents. I can't list every example since 90% of the cast would be on this list, but here are a few examples:
    • :ultjigglypuff::ultwario::ultyoshi: and other characters with fast air speed can drift in with an aerial and drift out while only hitting Popo (or Nana in some situations).
    • :ultdoc:'s pill will often only hit Popo which means Popo will get knocked back further from Dr. Mario's attacks, making it easier to hit/kill Nana without Popo interfering. Dr. Mario's kill power also means that a separated Ice Climber (past around 60%) is a dead Ice Climber.
    • Characters with command grabs (:ultbowser::ultfalcon::ultdiddy::ultganondorf::ultincineroar::ultisabelle::ultjoker::ultkingdedede::ultkrool::ultkirby::ultlucario::ultmewtwo::ultbrawler::ultridley::ultrobin::ultwario::ultyoshi:) can grab one Ice Climber and easily separate them. Characters with tether grabs (:ultlucas::ultluigi::ultsamus::ultdarksamus::ulttoonlink::ultyounglink::ultzss:) can also grab an Ice Climber from farther away, meaning that the other will take longer to reach the one that is grabbed/been thrown making it easier to kill/combo/hit one of them.
    • :ultbowserjr:'s Mechakoops will usually attach one Ice Climber (the explosion will sometimes hit both of them) and can easily separate both Ice Climbers, allowing Bowser Jr. to basically do whatever he wants to them.
  2. Their recovery isn't bad but it isn't great either. Up-b will often sweetspot the ledge easily, but there are times where it randomly won't, and their poor mobility offstage makes them easy to edgeguard if they haven't used their up-b.
  3. They are pretty slow on the ground. Their wavedash is pretty good, but their dash speed is bad, walk speed is below average, and their initial dash is also bad.
  4. Their frame data isn't all that great. I don't have the data in front of me, but all of their attacks seem to have too much end lag or startup lag.
  5. They are good in some areas (ledge-trapping, complex infinites, styleish combos) but ledge-trapping is the only one that's even somewhat easy to pull off.
  6. Nana's AI sucks.
I do think that the Ice Climbers have some good things that they can do (combos, good grab game, infinites, ledge trapping) but you are basically fighting against Nana's poor AI as well as your opponent. They are also extremely high risk, with decent reward, which combined with Nana's inconsistent AI means that Ice Climbers are basically an extreme glass cannon character with a high learning curve.

There's probably more to say on this subject, and I understand that Big D has been doing a lot of cool things with Ice Climbers and getting decent results, but there have been a lot of characters considered to be low mid tiers/low tiers who have been getting decent results as well (:ulttoonlink:) and it hasn't stopped people from calling them low tiers anyways.

TLDR Ice Climbers kind of suck and are probably low tier even though they have a few things about them that are really good.
 
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Krysco

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Fatality has showcased some new tech here. It is basically the combined power of numerous other
It makes Falcon come close to his teleport grab from SSB4, and other characters like Sonic, Ridley, and Chroy also benefits from this as well.



Btw, who let the Shulk main name this tech. lol
Are you able to explain the inputs for this tech by any chance? Fatality's description for it is kinda confusing. "Jam forward on the control stick, within the first 4 frames of you jamming it forward, you hit forward on the control stick, then you slide forward again with the control stick, press the shield button and immediately grab." This sounds like it's :GCR::GCR::GCR::GCLT::GCZ:. He later starts bringing up the c stick and mentions how it needs to be pressed within the first 4 frames which sounds like it's :GCR::GCCD::GCR::GCLT::GCZ:. This one seems more likely as he did some dtilts in the video that wouldn't have happened if he wasn't using the c stick.
 

KirbySquad101

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Here's a list of the notable Mexican players attending EVO:

From the sounds of it, Bedgar :ultinkling:, Meme :ultyoshi:, Regi :ultgnw:, and Hyuga :ulttoonlink: will most likely not be attending; It sounds like it hurts the dinosaur and the squid kid a little, but they'll most likely manage. As for Toon Link, I'm not even sure which major players will be competing with him.

As for G&W, Maister will be participating, but given his track record at supermajors and regionals, I am a little worried; perhaps he can break the curse this time XD
 

Rizen

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I got 5th of 28. That's not impressive but most of the good players were present and I fought through a tough bracket so I'm feeling good :)

Ike's my demon. I tried to CP Link but he did worse than YL. The Links do not have good frame data so Ike actually out speeds them. He also out-angles them and has good reward on hit so it's a really rough MU. Anyone know how to fight Ike, like tricks to punish him?
I'd say the other 3: Olimar, Inkling and Joker are less hindered by their's than Rosa is. Olimar only needing a single frame on the ground is more forgiving than Rosa's time limit and Inkling only loses a couple moves while Joker mostly just loses kill power.
A little nitpick: Joker also has significantly smaller hitboxes without Arsene.

A character that I hardly see talked about on here is :ulticeclimbers:. So I'm going to share why I think they are really bad.

  1. Matchup spread. Almost every character has the tools to separate Ice Climbers easily and/or kill Nana at pretty early percents. I can't list every example since 90% of the cast would be on this list, but here are a few examples:
    • :ultjigglypuff::ultwario::ultyoshi: and other characters with fast air speed can drift in with an aerial and drift out while only hitting Popo (or Nana in some situations).
    • :ultdoc:'s pill will often only hit Popo which means Popo will get knocked back further from Dr. Mario's attacks, making it easier to hit/kill Nana without Popo interfering. Dr. Mario's kill power also means that a separated Ice Climber (past around 60%) is a dead Ice Climber.
    • Characters with command grabs (:ultbowser::ultfalcon::ultdiddy::ultganondorf::ultincineroar::ultisabelle::ultjoker::ultkingdedede::ultkrool::ultkirby::ultlucario::ultmewtwo::ultbrawler::ultridley::ultrobin::ultwario::ultyoshi:) can grab one Ice Climber and easily separate them. Characters with tether grabs (:ultlucas::ultluigi::ultsamus::ultdarksamus::ulttoonlink::ultyounglink::ultzss:) can also grab an Ice Climber from farther away, meaning that the other will take longer to reach the one that is grabbed/been thrown making it easier to kill/combo/hit one of them.
    • :ultbowserjr:'s Mechakoops will usually attach one Ice Climber (the explosion will sometimes hit both of them) and can easily separate both Ice Climbers, allowing Bowser Jr. to basically do whatever he wants to them.
  2. Their recovery isn't bad but it isn't great either. Up-b will often sweetspot the ledge easily, but there are times where it randomly won't, and their poor mobility offstage makes them easy to edgeguard if they haven't used their up-b.
  3. They are pretty slow on the ground. Their wavedash is pretty good, but their dash speed is bad, walk speed is below average, and their initial dash is also bad.
  4. Their frame data isn't all that great. I don't have the data in front of me, but all of their attacks seem to have too much end lag or startup lag.
  5. They are good in some areas (ledge-trapping, complex infinites, styleish combos) but ledge-trapping is the only one that's even somewhat easy to pull off.
  6. Nana's AI sucks.
I do think that the Ice Climbers have some good things that they can do (combos, good grab game, infinites, ledge trapping) but you are basically fighting against Nana's poor AI as well as your opponent. They are also extremely high risk, with decent reward, which combined with Nana's inconsistent AI means that Ice Climbers are basically an extreme glass cannon character with a high learning curve.

There's probably more to say on this subject, and I understand that Big D has been doing a lot of cool things with Ice Climbers and getting decent results, but there have been a lot of characters considered to be low mid tiers/low tiers who have been getting decent results as well (:ulttoonlink:) and it hasn't stopped people from calling them low tiers anyways.

TLDR Ice Climbers kind of suck and are probably low tier even though they have a few things about them that are really good.
ICs don't have a lot going for them but they are hard to punish. As Popo's in end lag, Nana's attacking so their practical lag is minimal. ICs also have some of the best walling in the game with desyncted blizzard chains. They can be very hard to get in on.
 
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I completely disagree with him on that one (looks to me that he doesn't put the required time into her) but if it gets her buffed by all the accumulated complaints then I won't disagree with him :3.
Also why does he want Sm4sh jab? That thing was awful (frame 11!), not it's frame 4 with nearly the same amount of FAF.
Or did her jab do something in Sm4sh I'm not aware of? Sounds to me like pointless rage, though...
 

Rizen

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I completely disagree with him on that one (looks to me that he doesn't put the required time into her) but if it gets her buffed by all the accumulated complaints then I won't disagree with him :3.
Also why does he want Sm4sh jab? That thing was awful (frame 11!), not it's frame 4 with nearly the same amount of FAF.
Or did her jab do something in Sm4sh I'm not aware of? Sounds to me like pointless rage, though...
SSB4 jab comboed into DA and Farow's at certain %s.
 
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SSB4 jab comboed into DA and Farow's at certain %s.
Doesn't excuse the startup. I mean, I trade better start-up with potential follow-ups everytime because good luck hitting someone with such a jab.
Bayo's jab is considered trash in Ultimate and this is actually a frame 9 attack which is still two frames faster than Zelda's Sm4sh version.
 

Spinosaurus

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I completely disagree with him on that one (looks to me that he doesn't put the required time into her) but if it gets her buffed by all the accumulated complaints then I won't disagree with him :3.
Also why does he want Sm4sh jab? That thing was awful (frame 11!), not it's frame 4 with nearly the same amount of FAF.
Or did her jab do something in Sm4sh I'm not aware of? Sounds to me like pointless rage, though...
Wasn't it plus on shield or at least actually safe? That's a ridiculously good thing to have. She had dtilt to compensate for how slow it was, which is much worse now afaik.
 
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I believe Light fought Ven multiple times in friendlies. But can't say for certain but apparently he made Light hate Zelda. Could be mean anything, though.
But yeah, Light and then probably MuteAce or Zinoto but definitely Peach which is kinda bonkers.

Anyway, aside of character interests, I kinda want Glutonny to do well, too. Having a strong European representant is very nice and I hope he can make Top 8 again. iStudying :ultgreninja: is also someone to keep an out and so are Flow:ultroy: ,PEW (:ultness:, seed 117), Greil (:ultwolf:, seed 118) , Enki (:ultpikachu:, seed 127), Trim (:ultmegaman:, seed 133) and Ogey (:ultfalcon:, seed 157). All of them are really good French players (well, except istudying who is Dutch), so EVO will also show how well the best Smash scene in Europe can do against the rest. Maybe there are more European (French) players but I only recognize these names.


Apparently, Leffen is also there but you never know if he actually shows up.
 
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Noticed a surprising lack of mention to :ultcloud: and his Limit. Grants additional movement which is unique amongst the other resources you mentioned but also upgrades his specials which can be considered similar to others.
I considered Cloud, but decided against it since Limit reminded me more of KO Punch than anything else. Although I forgot it boosted his movement.
 

SwagGuy99

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ICs don't have a lot going for them but they are hard to punish. As Popo's in end lag, Nana's attacking so their practical lag is minimal. ICs also have some of the best walling in the game with desyncted blizzard chains. They can be very hard to get in on.
I wasn't trying to say that they don't have any good things about them, but their high skill curve and easy to exploit weaknesses heavily outweight their strengths most of the time IMO.

Edit:

I completely disagree with him on that one (looks to me that he doesn't put the required time into her) but if it gets her buffed by all the accumulated complaints then I won't disagree with him :3.
Also why does he want Sm4sh jab? That thing was awful (frame 11!), not it's frame 4 with nearly the same amount of FAF.
Or did her jab do something in Sm4sh I'm not aware of? Sounds to me like pointless rage, though...
I think her Smash 4 jab was very safe on block or something although I could be wrong.
 
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If a frame 11 jab is considered to be a good trait about one character then this character has to be awful.
And she was bottom tier in Sm4sh, so no surprise there. Like, there was nothing good about her. At all. Although she had a working nAir back then, I give Meru that point.
Kinda baffling Meru wants this jab back, though. Although she could have less endlag on the move so it'd be safe(r) on shield.
 
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Spinosaurus

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If a frame 11 jab is considered to be a good trait about one character then this character has to be awful.
And she was bottom tier in Sm4sh, so no surprise there. Like, there was nothing good about her. At all. Although she had a working nAir back then, I give Meru that point.
Kinda baffling Meru wants this jab back, though. Although she could have less endlag on the move so it'd be safe(r) on shield.
You're looking at it the complete wrong way. It was frame 11 but it was a completely safe on shield jab (like the only one too?) with a good disjointed range that gave her potential follow ups on hit which is an option Zelda doesn't have anymore. It being 11 frames start up was like only bad thing about it. It was a really good button on a garbage character, I'd EASILY trade Wario's jab for it.
 
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You're looking at it the complete wrong way. It was frame 11 but it was a completely safe on shield jab (like the only one too?) with a good disjointed range that gave her potential follow ups on hit which is an option Zelda doesn't have anymore. It being 11 frames start up was like only bad thing about it. It was a really good button on a garbage character, I'd EASILY trade Wario's jab for it.
Probably. I haven't played Sm4sh that much. However, frame 11 is rather bad and Ultimate is probably a faster game than Sm4sh. i don't think it would be all to helpful in Ultimate but I could be wrong about this. A frame 4 jab has its uses as well but they are different.
Maybe if her grab gets buffed (and I really hope they do) then jab could be a valid follow-up again. The problem isn't really her jab but the stuff that jab lead to in Sm4sh which is indeed the grab.
 

BuffKirby

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I'm beginning to set my doubts on characters like :ultwiifittrainer::ultshulk:.

The positive reception given to them thanks to supposedly "big" benefits in transition (Wii Fit and Shulk) or simply because of the patches (Ken). Impressions aren't the most reliable thing to consider, as we've seen a great deal of them plummet simply because of metagame developments left untouched (:4kirby: I would argued suffer the hardest thanks to traits considered insignificant, such as his copy abilities, left completely undeveloped. :4yoshi: and probably :4drmario: also felt devastated due to theory not being often applied in tournament setting).


:ultwiifittrainer::ultshulk: have among the highest learning curves in the game. I see in general, the higher the learning curve, the more deterring they will feel to be applied in competitive settings. :ultwiifittrainer: needs a great deal of knowledge and practice to know how to properly keep the opponents guessing thanks to her very specific requirements on certain hitboxes to keep the mind games going.

:ultshulk:: when you have five Monado Arts you need to know in order to deal with 71 fighters (In essence, 426 situations to consider, with and without his Arts), it's understandable of why he's a rare sight. A lot of grinding to do, not to mention knowledge on his other kit. Aerials, Grabs, along with tilts...etc.
 

StoicPhantom

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You're looking at it the complete wrong way. It was frame 11 but it was a completely safe on shield jab (like the only one too?) with a good disjointed range that gave her potential follow ups on hit which is an option Zelda doesn't have anymore. It being 11 frames start up was like only bad thing about it. It was a really good button on a garbage character, I'd EASILY trade Wario's jab for it.
Probably. I haven't played Sm4sh that much. However, frame 11 is rather bad and Ultimate is probably a faster game than Sm4sh. i don't think it would be all to helpful in Ultimate but I could be wrong about this. A frame 4 jab has its uses as well but they are different.
Maybe if her grab gets buffed (and I really hope they do) then jab could be a valid follow-up again. The problem isn't really her jab but the stuff that jab lead to in Sm4sh which is indeed the grab.
There isn't that significant of a size difference between the two and the Ultimate one is almost a third of the startup. It wasn't that Jab was a good spacing tool, it was her only spacing tool. Shields didn't come up that often and Ultimate's Jab 1 should still be safe on shield.

Take this match for example. Ven's making all those confirms seem worth it, until JK simply decides to stop approaching. Then Ven is promptly reverse 3-0'd, with a troll character switch to boot. You can see how both Bayo and Falcon easily danced just outside of Jab's range and then punished the startup of the next one. Shields didn't come into play here, you can beat Zelda with movement alone. Ven got as far as he did in that Falcon one, because he was hard punishing Falcon's grab whiffs.

If you're skeptical of a Bayo set, try a Luigi set, who shouldn't be difficult to out range. Notice how anytime Ven whiffed Jab he had to dash back in order to avoid Elegant punishing the startup of the next one, when Elegant got even slightly within Jab's reach? And how Ven often got punished for doing so? That's where the startup can come into play, because Luigi's grab range and speed was insane and could easily beat the startup. Notice how it had difficulty keeping Luigi of all characters out? Elegant even got on the Zelda troll train, with that sign that said "It's DI dependant", referencing how Zelda's confirms could be avoided with DI. That set was only close because Elegant made a lot of dumb mistakes.

Jab was never good, it was just the best she had at the time. You may also notice in those sets, Nair combos were rare, D-Tilt combos were situational and often done on a punish, and Jab combos were only done at low percents with relatively pitiful damage compared to what you can do in Ultimate at similar percents. As Elegant so eloquently put it, Zelda's confirms were DI dependent and had some significant risk in some cases.

Phantom is a better spacing tool than Smash 4 Jab in every way. Ultimate Jab 1 will cover any range closer than what is safe to use Phantom with. Even Fsmash should still be safe, properly spaced. Zelda's combos and confirms are also safer, better, and more consistent in Ultimate. They generally do more damage per neutral win and you won't see as hard of punishment on whiff.

People really need to take the nostalgia goggles off of Smash 4 Zelda. Ultimate Zelda is better in nearly every way, outside of power and grab startup. Even Ven's more polished later play, still had Jab be middling and Zelda's various confirms rare. Certainly not to the same effect her Ultimate tools have. That tweet seems to be another example of a character main that refuses to adapt to new changes, even when they are objectively better.
 

DelugeFGC

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I considered Cloud, but decided against it since Limit reminded me more of KO Punch than anything else. Although I forgot it boosted his movement.
I wouldn't compare Limit to KO Punch at all. Primarily because Limit as you said effects Cloud's overall mobility, but also because Limit has versatility that KO Punch simply does not have. Cloud also has a much easier time comboing into it, and Cloud can charge Limit all on his own without taking damage to do so. Little Mac, on the inverse, does not have to worry about a 15 second timer for his KO once he gets it.. but he does have to worry about taking a hit and losing it that way.

The two things are vastly different.
 
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Rizen Rizen - Idk about YL specifically, but whenever I go up against an Ike, my strategy varies depending on the character:

For :ultfalco:, who I would assume follows a similar gameplan to YL, I generally try to force an approach, and try to stay where I can dash grab whiffed Nair. Shielding Nair is basically useless, because of the safety on shield, so I try to jam the start-up before it happens. Falco gets a lot out of dragdown Nair and Fair, and Nair is great for stuffing shorthop aerials due to the speed.

For Ike’s Nair, it may start on frame 8, but the actual horizontal hitbox for grounded opponents doesn’t hit till frame 10 or 11, which also gives some time to do an AC Utilt as a mix-up.

Beyond that, I try to discourage him using his horizontal recovery with blaster, because once he has to recover low, it’s over.

Ike is, as you know, straight combo food, so I tend to end my combos with something to send him offstage. Parrying Nair into Utilt is kind of ridiculous.

Basically, I try to keep him as grounded as possible with lasers, keep track of Nair patterns, combo smartly, and get him offstage to get an edgeguard situation.

This will likely evolve as I incorporate more Active hops into my gameplay, tho, sooo...

You probably already know all this...
 

Gleam

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I didn't notice that; it threw my numbers off. I wonder why they started a second phase. It's important to look at long term results over short term and this makes it harder :/
I tried to relate the Phase 02 data with Phase 01 and show whatever characters would have shown improvements on Orion and those who wouldn't.

:ultwolf:+0 (Already at the Top)
:ultsnake:+0
:ultpalutena:+0 :ultpeach:+1
:ultfox:+0
:ultlucina:+0 :ultpichu:+1 :ultinkling:+2
:ultolimar:+0
:ultwario:+0 :ultpokemontrainer:+1 :ultmegaman:+1 :ultrob:+3 :ultgreninja:+4 :ultzss:+5 :ultness:+5 :ultmario:+5 :ultroy:+1 :ultchrom:+3
:ultike:+0 :ultyoshi:+1 :ultjoker:+2
:ultcloud:+0 :ultpikachu:+1 :ultshulk:+2 :ultyounglink:+3
:ultlink:+0 :ultbowser:+1 :ultpacman:+2 :ultsonic:+3
:ultkingdedede:+0 :ulttoonlink:+1 :ultfalco:+1
:ultgnw:+0 (:ultluigi:)+3
:ultmetaknight:+0 :ultdk:+1 :ultsimon:/:ultrichter:+3 :ulticeclimbers:+2:ultbayonetta:+3:ultsamus:/:ultdarksamus:+6:ultridley:+5:ultlucario:+6 :ultsheik:+3:ultduckhunt:+9:ultzelda:+2:ultdiddy:+8:ultdoc:+3(:ultrosalina:)+3
:ultvillager:+0
:ultincineroar:+0
:ultlucas:+0
:ultrobin:/:ultrobinf:+0(:ultken:)+3
:ultmewtwo:+0 :ultganondorf:+1
:ultisabelle:+0(:ultryu:)+3
:ultswordfighter:+0
:ultmarth:+0
:ultkrool:+0 (:ultwiifittrainer:)+3 (:ultbowserjr:)+4 (:ultpiranha:)+4 (:ultkirby:)+8
:ultjigglypuff:+0
:ultcorrin:/:ultcorrinf:+0 :ultbrawler:+3 :ultgunner:+3
:ultlittlemac:+1


NOTES

:ultryu:+:ultken:=#45 on Orion
:ultpit:+:ultdarkpit:=#55 on Orion

:ultfalcon: was weirdly placed. His numerical value is about 166 but his placement is between much lower numbers. I didn't know if this was a mistake on placement or numerical values but didn't rank him because of it.

If a character surpassed the old value of a character in Phase 01, I gave them a +number.

I also tried to put each character into a set of groups based on threshold. For example Wario was a threshold as he didn't have enough values to get up to Phase 01 Olimar. Pokemon Trainer however would surpass Phase 01 Wario in results and it kept going until we got to Ike who couldn't reach up to Chrom and had to be put into his own threshold.

Characters with brackets ( ) are character who would normally have been in a lower group but their values allowed them to rise up to a higher group.

:ultdiddy:+8 and :ultduckhunt:+9 show the best improvement in results

:ultjigglypuff::ultmarth::ultcorrin::ultcorrinf::ultkrool::ultmewtwo::ultmetaknight: have shown no increased results since the Phase 02 posting on July 15th.

Some character came very close, a point or so from getting into another group but unless they hit the threshold I didn't bother. Another thing to note is that characters with +0 increases doesn't mean they aren't getting results. Fox for example has "decent" results in Phase 02, but the value for :ultpeach: is so high that even with those results Fox can't reach her yet.

It took a while to get this all settled so I hope I didn't mess up anything too badly. Some things to take note I think are...

The characters above who had absolutely no results represent, as of this data, stagnant characters. This doesn't make all of them necessarily bad, but the meta and results for them have not gone anywhere since this data was released. If it keeps up though, they will certain drop.

Character with increased placements can speak of "improved" characters but I think it can also speak of fluctuations and how the very meta can change the scope of the placement. Ridley would've jumped from #43 to around #38 but at the same time, is in this all out placement fight between 15+ other characters.

Some personal things I think should be noted.

Even combining their results, the Shotos don't exactly speak beyond average Mid Tier results. Give it time perhaps but right now, I expect much better from "high Tier" characters.

Joker is another character who despite having good results and with MKLeo playing him, hasn't reached Top 10 yet. A reason among others that I can't put him in Top Tier either.

That's all I can really say, do with this information as you wish people because it'll be slightly outdated once the next bit of data comes.
 
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Rizen

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Rizen Rizen - Idk about YL specifically, but whenever I go up against an Ike, my strategy varies depending on the character:

For :ultfalco:, who I would assume follows a similar gameplan to YL, I generally try to force an approach, and try to stay where I can dash grab whiffed Nair. Shielding Nair is basically useless, because of the safety on shield, so I try to jam the start-up before it happens. Falco gets a lot out of dragdown Nair and Fair, and Nair is great for stuffing shorthop aerials due to the speed.

For Ike’s Nair, it may start on frame 8, but the actual horizontal hitbox for grounded opponents doesn’t hit till frame 10 or 11, which also gives some time to do an AC Utilt as a mix-up.

Beyond that, I try to discourage him using his horizontal recovery with blaster, because once he has to recover low, it’s over.

Ike is, as you know, straight combo food, so I tend to end my combos with something to send him offstage. Parrying Nair into Utilt is kind of ridiculous.

Basically, I try to keep him as grounded as possible with lasers, keep track of Nair patterns, combo smartly, and get him offstage to get an edgeguard situation.

This will likely evolve as I incorporate more Active hops into my gameplay, tho, sooo...

You probably already know all this...
My problem was I was trying to shield Nairs but looking at the frame data it only has 8f landing lag. Ike's Nair is broken. It's reall hard to find holes in his walling. His other frame data isn't that bad either with a F4 jab, F7 Dtilt (both of which beat YL's and especially Link's). Ike's air speed is also higher and his sword stops projectiles. He has a lot of tools that work really well against the Links. How do you intercept Ike, try to spike his upB?

Ike might be falling off a bit but he's still a strong upper high tier imo. His reward on hit is high with several combos from Nair, Dtilt and grab, is that right? He might get over shadowed by top tiers but I can't see him falling out of high tier short of a nerf. I might just train with Wolf to fight him.
 

DelugeFGC

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My problem was I was trying to shield Nairs but looking at the frame data it only has 8f landing lag. Ike's Nair is broken. It's reall hard to find holes in his walling. His other frame data isn't that bad either with a F4 jab, F7 Dtilt (both of which beat YL's and especially Link's). Ike's air speed is also higher and his sword stops projectiles. He has a lot of tools that work really well against the Links. How do you intercept Ike, try to spike his upB?

Ike might be falling off a bit but he's still a strong upper high tier imo. His reward on hit is high with several combos from Nair, Dtilt and grab, is that right? He might get over shadowed by top tiers but I can't see him falling out of high tier short of a nerf. I might just train with Wolf to fight him.
Ike is exploitable because his entire neutral is built around NAir walling and whiff punishing when he can, on top of being a big combo-prone body with a meh recovery. Ike does have good reward on hit, yes, but despite how broken his NAir seems it is far from such. When you take a step back and look at Ike's 'unga bunga' gameplan, it's not hard to predict / read what your opponent will go for because their viable options are so damned linear.

If he's just straight walling with NAir, I'd recommend using bombs or a well timed projectile to get through, whiff punishing NAir with YL isn't wise as you don't have the range, frame data or anything to get in well with how little landing lag it has due to autocancel mechanics. If he's trying to get in with NAir, I usually parry it, but I play characters with better frame data (barring Cloud, who I don't use much anymore anyway) than YL so I don't know if this is as viable for him as it is others.. but it can really screw him on jump ins with a parry reaction.

Otherwise, yeah, DTilt and grab are his other combo starters, but they have much lower reward than NAir overall and are harder to slip in from the Ike player. Yes, Ike's NAir is a very good move, but Ike's NAir is also his entire gameplan and as such I can't really see him above mid tier. He's too damned simple and too exploitable.
 
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You don't punish Ike's landing/endlag (unless you parry n-air). You punish his startup. It takes time for him to get into position.

Think.

When can Ike use n-air?

When he's in the air, at very specific distances from the ground.

This means he's going to jump, usually full hop.
It also means that he loses access to shield.
What can you do against an opponent who can't shield?

You can attack.

Ike can't jump when you're in range to punish him for jumping with a short hop rising aerial (like YL n-air).
 
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KirbySquad101

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Tbf, out of the shotos, it seems to be just :ultken: that everyone's hyping up, mostly because of the Twitter clips of him getting a kill at 40% while at some ridiculously high percentage.

Poor Ryu continues to be overlooked :/
 

Rizen

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Ike is exploitable because his entire neutral is built around NAir walling and whiff punishing when he can,
This really isn't true. Good Ikes use an assortment of neutral tools including grab, zoning with D/Ftilt, pivots, Bair and Nair. He also has a f4 jab. There's no reason Ike is more predictable than most other characters.

The Ike I play is largely grounded to shield projectiles. He Nairs as an air to air option mostly. Ike has good footsies.
 
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Id say Ike is still high-tier, but not at the high-end of it.

The upper-are of high-tier to me is more like :ultroy::ultchrom::ultpokemontrainer::ultgreninja::ultmario::ultmegaman: and likely :ultken:Many people consider :ultzss: top-tier level I guess. But maybe a bit better but still at the cusp.

Yea :ultolimar: is still top-tier for sure
 
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KirbySquad101

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Id say Ike is still high-tier, but not at the high-end of it.

The upper-are of high-tier to me is more like :ultroy::ultchrom::ultpokemontrainer::ultgreninja::ultmario::ultmegaman: and likely :ultken:Many people comsider :ultzss: top-tier level now but can also be at this area
You could probably toss :ultrob: in there as well; WaDi has been absolutely killing it lately, and both 8BitMan and zackray have put on a good show for him.
 
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This really isn't true. Good Ikes use an assortment of neutral tools including grab, zoning with D/Ftilt, pivots, Bair and Nair. He also has a f4 jab. There's no reason Ike is more predictable than most other characters.

The Ike I play is largely grounded to shield projectiles. He Nairs as an air to air option mostly. Ike has good footsies.
Good Ikes also use Aether OoS or just raw Aether to punish things while on the ground. Marss probably does it the best, it has super armour on frame 5, leads to a lot of damage on its own, can sometimes be used to drag the opponent off stage, can sometimes be followed up because now you're in the air above Ike and you never want to be in that position.
 

DelugeFGC

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NAir is Ike's best option in neutral most of the time and it gives him the greatest reward, Ike relies more on his NAir to put in work than any other character relies on one singular move. Ike is definitely a linear, exploitable character and it's been proven with time. He fell off, hard, for a reason.

I didn't claim it was literally his only option period, obviously it isn't, but it's the most optimal one a lot of the time. Aether punishes are gimmicky and once you get punished by the armor once, well any good player won't usually get locked up into such a gimmicky punish twice. Using it on reaction when you can is good, but you can't always do that.

Also a F4 jab is nothing to write home about in a game with frame 1-2 moves, especially considering the lackluster range it has like most jabs tend to. It's a good get off me tool sometimes, but a lot of characters have up close options that can beat it out. YL isn't one, but that doesn't mean other examples don't exist.

With his tragic recovery, unga bunga neutral and heavy, combo-food status I don't see how you can not call Ike exploitable. He's textbook exploitable. His frame data as an overall package is pretty meh too, the startup on a lot of his moves leaves him open to heavy punishes from a lot of characters.
 
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