Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[bc1910]

As an aside, I know you and the other Greninja mains are trying to lowkey the hell out of how good the Frog is now, but let's be real, Greninja is ridiculous and has all the tools to be top tier in this game. That he straight robbed Fox of his dash attack, has a great projectile, has a bazillion kill confirms, a great recovery, and absurd mobility, is just kind of blatantly rude. I'm both surprised and not surprised that most of the Western meta hasn't really been paying that much attention until just recently.

Don’t forget his incredible edgeguarding including tools such as a counter that spikes and an angleable windbox that can cover low recovery, high recovery OR punish you as he returns to the stage after missing an edgeguard.

But you know, bad OoS and stuff, mid tier.

I wouldn’t say I’ve been particularly low key with my opinions. After an initial wobble over Greninja’s still-atrocious OoS game (it’s the worst in the game, I don’t see how Lucario’s or anyone else’s is worse when literally everyone else has either a faster grab, good Up B/Usmash or rising aerial, usually 2 or more of those things) I’ve been pretty vocal about how strong I think he is. Bad OoS is a big deal but not an insurmountable problem when everything else is so good, particularly his kill power and damage output for a character of his mobility. Greninja is the type of character that is traditionally top tier and people are generally comfortable with being top tier.

You can’t blame the players for being low key about froggo’s strength though. The word “potential” has become a meme and a lot of frog mains were shouted down in the S4 days for saying he was above mid tier, before iStudying and Venia started to turn heads. Plus he’s still relatively hard to play and unpopular in the US. If that changes I don’t think it’ll take long for Greninja to be commonly known as a top tier, even if (much like Peach) he’ll be too hard to play to be a FOTM character.

 

[fozzy fosbourne]

Tweek creates a tier list on twitch here, explains his reasoning:

Starts somewhere around 4:20. I'll screenshot the final tier list when I finish watching it =)
I think most unorthodox things so far are young link and corrin

 

[Routa]

People forget that just jumping OoS is also good option. From what I have understood is that Greninja has one of the best fh OoS in the game. Just being able to escape the pressure and reset to neutral is still really good even if you cannot punish right away with oos nair or something.
Anyways in this game it is really important to have good jump due to weaker shields and lower lag aerials which make the game more air combat heavy. This is why Luigi will remain weak. He has abysmally bad sh and aerial mobility. Jumping in neutral is no go due to it and he is forced to be on the ground all the time. Only way to improve him would be changing his mobility specs, but that is very unlikely due to it changing him into something els than the goofy Guy we know as Luigi. There are other characters that are flawed by their design (Kirby for example) that can cause them to be either extremely busted or bad depending from the engine and damage values.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Tweek creates a tier list on twitch here, explains his reasoning:

Starts somewhere around 4:20. I'll screenshot the final tier list when I finish watching it =)
I think most unorthodox things so far are young link and corrin

Something in common with Tweek's tier list with Leo's tier list, is that both simply dumped a bunch of characters into one large tier. Not sure if that is the right way of going by things.

People forget that just jumping OoS is also good option. From what I have understood is that Greninja has one of the best fh OoS in the game. Just being able to escape the pressure and reset to neutral is still really good even if you cannot punish right away with oos nair or something.
Anyways in this game it is really important to have good jump due to weaker shields and lower lag aerials which make the game more air combat heavy. This is why Luigi will remain weak. He has abysmally bad sh and aerial mobility. Jumping in neutral is no go due to it and he is forced to be on the ground all the time. Only way to improve him would be changing his mobility specs, but that is very unlikely due to it changing him into something els than the goofy Guy we know as Luigi. There are other characters that are flawed by their design (Kirby for example) that can cause them to be either extremely busted or bad depending from the engine and damage values.

Double f-air autocancels. Luigi has amazing frame data, just hindered by his poor air mobility.

Thing with both Luigi and Kirby, is that both of those characters must be played grounded. That is where both of their biggest strengths come from.

 

[trickroom]

People forget that just jumping OoS is also good option. From what I have understood is that Greninja has one of the best fh OoS in the game. Just being able to escape the pressure and reset to neutral is still really good even if you cannot punish right away with oos nair or something.

I agree. It's important to remember that you don't have to attack as an oos option. Jumping and different kinds of dodging are perfectly good, and not being able to get free damage with an upb or what-have-you isn't the end of the world.

 

[ReVerbIsSuperb]

You can’t blame the players for being low key about froggo’s strength though. The word “potential” has become a meme and a lot of frog mains were shouted down in the S4 days for saying he was above mid tier, before iStudying and Venia started to turn heads. Plus he’s still relatively hard to play and unpopular in the US. If that changes I don’t think it’ll take long for Greninja to be commonly known as a top tier, even if (much like Peach) he’ll be too hard to play to be a FOTM character.

Good to see there are at least some notable players not completely overlooking him lol

Bro SHUT UP. I want him to stay under the radar!!

— 💧Light💧 (@Light_S21) February 9, 2019

Wow he called me out

— King Venia ◥θ┴θ◤ (@King_Venia) February 9, 2019

 

[boysilver400]

There are other characters that are flawed by their design (Kirby for example) that can cause them to be either extremely busted or bad depending from the engine and damage values.

Fits this description much better, as his design is basically a gimmick. Giving him good airials and recoveries would erase that gimmick, and adding that to his speed and good ground game, he’d have the potential to be broken. It’s why so many people(myself included) think he’s unfixable.

The only things that needs to be “good, but not broken” is better air mobility, faster moves, and an RNG fix, and he’ll be fine. He’s not a bad character by design, he’s probably the easiest character to fix.

 

[|RK|]

Faster aerials alone would do it for Kirby. Faster specials would be icing.

Doesn't even *need* the airspeed - he just needs to be able to threaten people above him. As far as projectiles, his aerials usually stuff them out. Just get caught in startup.

 

[bc1910]

People forget that just jumping OoS is also good option. From what I have understood is that Greninja has one of the best fh OoS in the game. Just being able to escape the pressure and reset to neutral is still really good even if you cannot punish right away with oos nair or something.

His shield escape options are good, particularly his massive FH, but the inability to punish stuff makes you so free to block pressure that it destroys all semblance of respect your opponent needs to have for your shield. You can reset the situation as many times as you like; you are still facing a losing situation. Few characters can consistently force Greninja into these cornering situations in Ultimate compared to Smash 4 at least, unless the Greninja player is shielding too much and thus messing up.

Definitive “worst OoS” might be scenario dependent as there are times when a good shield escape is useful but if the option to punish is there, when is that option not better? Gren’s OoS punish game is certainly the worst.

Good to see there are at least some notable players not completely overlooking him lol

Bro SHUT UP. I want him to stay under the radar!!

— 💧Light💧 (@Light_S21) February 9, 2019

Wow he called me out

— King Venia ◥θ┴θ◤ (@King_Venia) February 9, 2019

Interesting to see, I know Dabuz has held a pretty high opinion of Greninja for a while. It doesn’t surprise me that Greninja bores him though, Dabuz has mentioned before that he doesn’t care about his character’s speed (one of Gren’s biggest selling points) and he’s much more of a neutral control player. Gren’s neutral is good but his real strengths lie in his punish game, combos and edgeguarding.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Okay now... MKLeo is using Wolf in Doubles currenty at Heart of Battle.

Who does NOT have a pocket Wolf at this point? Then again I can see Wolf being a very strong Doubles character too

 

[NairWizard]

Early Smash Ultimate seems to pursue poetic justice with prejudice:

• Wolf finally shining among his long-dominant space cousins
• ZeRo saying that Ike is just a better version of Cloud so why play Cloud at all? (exactly the opposite was said in Smash 4)
• Lucina overshadowing Marth (where you at, Lucina mains who always debated with everyone in smash 4? this is your moment; you're not blatantly wrong any more!)
• Pichu

No comment on balance, but most of this is pretty amusing.

 

[Ark of Silence101]

Early Smash Ultimate seems to pursue poetic justice with prejudice:

• Wolf finally shining among his long-dominant space cousins
• ZeRo saying that Ike is just a better version of Cloud so why play Cloud at all? (exactly the opposite was said in Smash 4)
• Lucina overshadowing Marth (where you at, Lucina mains who always debated with everyone in smash 4? this is your moment; you're not blatantly wrong any more!)
• Pichu

No comment on balance, but most of this is pretty amusing.

I was one of those Lucina players actually, funny how Marth players are not liking the fact that for the first time since he was introduced, he is no longer the best FE sworfighter.

 

[Rizen]

The only things that needs to be “good, but not broken” is better air mobility, faster moves, and an RNG fix, and he’ll be fine.

That's like saying, "the only things this used car needs to be good as new are new shocks, break pads, muffler, battery, suspension and replace the spark plugs."

 

[meleebrawler]

The only things that needs to be “good, but not broken” is better air mobility, faster moves, and an RNG fix, and he’ll be fine.

So basically, just be ?

 

[ZephyrZ]

So basically, just be ?

"No one cared who I was until I put on the mask".

...Are Meta Knight's moves faster then Kirby's? It'd be really sad if they were considering he has a sword.

 

[meleebrawler]

"No one cared who I was until I put on the mask".

...Are Meta Knight's moves faster then Kirby's? It'd be really sad if they were considering he has a sword.

When your sword is about as long as the average fighter's limbs the lines of how fast they should be are blurred.

Meta Knight's moves are unquestionably faster on average than Kirby's, but the latter has more raw power. Basically, among the Kirby gang he's the middle ground between Meta Knight's swift pressure and King Dedede's tanky, defensive style.

 

[MG_3989]

I know I’m late on the Pichu against defensive play talks but that’s why Ness “beats” him on a lot of matchup charts. He hates PSI Magnet, being spaced out by fair, and getting his landings caught by PK Fire, PK Thunder juggles, running into his grabs etc...Ness can rack up damage super quickly on Pichu, like kill percents in 10-20 seconds and negate his approaches. It’s balanced play that I think Pichu really hates. The thing is Ness also has great offensive options to actually kill Pichu quick and take advantage of playing defense. You can’t play pure defense

Of course you’re not playing your normal game as Ness against Pichu you switch into semi-zoner mode. Also if a good Pichu can get Ness off stage without his jumps (a lot harder to do than you’d think) he can gimp him with thunder jolt but that rarely happens. I’m just giving one example of how to beat Pichu from my experience though and I think it works. I also don’t think Ness has a huge advantage over Pichu, maybe like 55/45 but it’s there. This is another reason I think Ness will stick around top 15-20 (I don’t think “tiers” really matter as much as top characters this game) because of his flexible creative play style and matchup with the rats and Snake. That’s my semi-biased post for the day lol

People forget that just jumping OoS is also good option. From what I have understood is that Greninja has one of the best fh OoS in the game. Just being able to escape the pressure and reset to neutral is still really good even if you cannot punish right away with oos nair or something.
Anyways in this game it is really important to have good jump due to weaker shields and lower lag aerials which make the game more air combat heavy. This is why Luigi will remain weak. He has abysmally bad sh and aerial mobility. Jumping in neutral is no go due to it and he is forced to be on the ground all the time. Only way to improve him would be changing his mobility specs, but that is very unlikely due to it changing him into something els than the goofy Guy we know as Luigi. There are other characters that are flawed by their design (Kirby for example) that can cause them to be either extremely busted or bad depending from the engine and damage values.

Everyone has a the same jump out of shield. It’s airspeed, air acceleration, air mobility(both fastfallers and floaties have their advantages), and OoS attacks that matter

Early Smash Ultimate seems to pursue poetic justice with prejudice:

• Wolf finally shining among his long-dominant space cousins
• ZeRo saying that Ike is just a better version of Cloud so why play Cloud at all? (exactly the opposite was said in Smash 4)
• Lucina overshadowing Marth (where you at, Lucina mains who always debated with everyone in smash 4? this is your moment; you're not blatantly wrong any more!)
• Pichu

No comment on balance, but most of this is pretty amusing.

Didn’t play Smash 4, likes for Pichu

 

[Emblem Lord]

I was one of those Lucina players actually, funny how Marth players are not liking the fact that for the first time since he was introduced, he is no longer the best FE sworfighter.

To keep it real, Lucina is strong because she is a clone of a dominant archetype.

As a long time Marth player, it is irksome that a character with the same movelist, but takes LESS thought, LESS training, and LESS effort is stronger.

You tell me. Is that good game design?

We all know the answer to that question.

And what REALLY sucks is that since Marcina share data, when the nerfs come (and they will) Marth will feel the hammer as well.

 

[MG_3989]

To keep it real, Lucina is strong because she is a clone of a dominant archetype.

As a long time Marth player, it is irksome that a character with the same movelist, but takes LESS thought, LESS training, and LESS effort is stronger.

You tell me. Is that good game design?

We all know the answer to that question.

And what REALLY sucks is that since Margins share data, when the nerfs come (and they will) Marth will feel the hammer as well.

I personally think Marth has nowhere to go but up and by the end of Ultimate he’ll be the Marth we all know and “love” again. He’s just too well designed to be oppressed for too long

I think the combination of buffs and nerfs (Marth won’t see any nerfs with where he’s at right now) and new mechanics are discovered Marth will be right back to where he’s been at. I’m sure we have a lot more to uncover about Marth. We’re discovering new things everyday about this game

 

[ZephyrZ]

To keep it real, Lucina is strong because she is a clone of a dominant archetype.

As a long time Marth player, it is irksome that a character with the same movelist, but takes LESS thought, LESS training, and LESS effort is stronger.

You tell me. Is that good game design?

We all know the answer to that question.

And what REALLY sucks is that since Margins share data, when the nerfs come (and they will) Marth will feel the hammer as well.

It's also possible for Marth to get buffed.

In Smash 4, a lot of people considered Dark Pit entirely inferior to his twin, but then the buffed Electroshock Arm to have real kill power while Pit got nothing for his Upperdash.

Anyway worrying about buffs/nerfs is pointless anyway. They've also been really conservative with balance changes so far.

 

[Ark of Silence101]

To keep it real, Lucina is strong because she is a clone of a dominant archetype.

As a long time Marth player, it is irksome that a character with the same movelist, but takes LESS thought, LESS training, and LESS effort is stronger.

You tell me. Is that good game design?

We all know the answer to that question.

And what REALLY sucks is that since Marcina share data, when the nerfs come (and they will) Marth will feel the hammer as well.

Now you Marth players understand how us Roy players felt the first month of the meta game.

 

[Guynamednelson]

They should've kept Lucina a little shorter than Marth. Not only does removing the height difference make her less accurately portrayed, it removes the range advantage Marth had.

 

[boysilver400]

That's like saying, "the only things this used car needs to be good as new are new shocks, break pads, muffler, battery, suspension and replace the spark plugs."

And you don't think that car would be good? What are you trying to say here?

 

[PK Gaming]

They should've kept Lucina a little shorter than Marth. Not only does removing the height difference make her less accurately portrayed, it removes the range advantage Marth had.

Not only is this suggestion utterly nonsensical, it's innacurate.

https://youtu.be/eJbhe7WJit8

 

[Emblem Lord]

Now you Marth players understand how us Roy players felt the first month of the meta game.

I could argue that Marth takes more skill then Roy. Just that Roy as a concept does not work well.

I was a Roy main in melee before I accepted the truth.

But Chrom....that man is BRAINLESS!!

Yeah, I said it.

Check my username because I love me some Fire Emblem, but Chrom is ZzzzzZzzzzzzz

 

[Ark of Silence101]

I could argue that Marth takes more skill then Roy. Just that Roy as a concept does not work well.

I was a Roy main in melee before I accepted the truth.

But Chrom....that man is BRAINLESS!!

Yeah, I said it.

Check my username because I love me some Fire Emblem, but Chrom is ZzzzzZzzzzzzz

Even after I found out that Roy sucked big time not once did I thought of flocking to Marth, why? Sethlon, sure I will never be even half as good as he was with him but he is the reason I stuck with him despite him god awful. And people learning more and more to edgeguard is slowly becoming the bane of Chrom's playerbase.

 

[Rizen]

People do need to edge guard more. It's hard to get 'pineappled' on most stages because the way the lower lip works and
I think it discourages people from jumping offstage. It's easy to recover by going up from under the stage. What people need to do is jump out and intercept before the opponent gets near enough to grab the ledge by airdodging.

And you don't think that car would be good? What are you trying to say here?

Kirby needs work but the patch was a good start.

 

[zeldasmash]

To keep it real, Lucina is strong because she is a clone of a dominant archetype.

As a long time Marth player, it is irksome that a character with the same movelist, but takes LESS thought, LESS training, and LESS effort is stronger.

You tell me. Is that good game design?

We all know the answer to that question.

And what REALLY sucks is that since Marcina share data, when the nerfs come (and they will) Marth will feel the hammer as well.

It's like Lucina is turning into the main villain of the competitive scene.

 

[bc1910]

To keep it real, Lucina is strong because she is a clone of a dominant archetype.

As a long time Marth player, it is irksome that a character with the same movelist, but takes LESS thought, LESS training, and LESS effort is stronger.

You tell me. Is that good game design?

We all know the answer to that question.

And what REALLY sucks is that since Marcina share data, when the nerfs come (and they will) Marth will feel the hammer as well.

Didn’t Lucina get a bunch of damage buffs in S4 which weren’t shared by Marth?

I agree that he’ll most likely feel the wrath of any frame data nerfs coming Lucina’s way but they could certainly nerf Lucina’s damage/KB values without hurting Marth.

 

[KakuCP9]

I could argue that Marth takes more skill then Roy. Just that Roy as a concept does not work well.

I was a Roy main in melee before I accepted the truth.

But Chrom....that man is BRAINLESS!!

Yeah, I said it.

Check my username because I love me some Fire Emblem, but Chrom is ZzzzzZzzzzzzz

On the other hand, being as easy to edge-guard as he is will force his playerbase to grow brain cells out of necessity. Tbh I don't mind that he's brainless, at least he doesn't use some backwards ass mechanic so I find him rather refreshing.

 

[Ark of Silence101]

On the other hand, being as easy to edge-guard as he is will force his playerbase to grow brain cells out of necessity. Tbh I don't mind that he's brainless, at least he doesn't use some backwards *** mechanic so I find him rather refreshing.

They are, some are optimising their on stage presence and limited recovery mix ups, a few use Roy for those MU where he gets eaten alive offstage(Inklings, Electric Rats), while others straight up dropped him for other characters.

 

[Idon]

Looking at most majors' top 64s it seems like the only Marth mains currently are Mr E and False?

Anyone else know of any Marth loyalists still kicking around?

 

[Ark of Silence101]

Looking at most majors' top 64s it seems like the only Marth mains currently are Mr E and False?

Anyone else know of any Marth loyalists still kicking around?

Rudolph from Japan occasionally puts work with, don't know if Pugwest still uses him, outside of those 3 no one else seems to want to put the effort into him.

 

[Guido65]

Looking at most majors' top 64s it seems like the only Marth mains currently are Mr E and False?

Anyone else know of any Marth loyalists still kicking around?

False plays wolf in ultimate not marth.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

False plays wolf in ultimate not marth.

Ok seriously WHO IS NOT either using Wolf or Lucina at this point.

I swaer unless you use a character that already requires a load of investment. ( / ). You can just pick on of the two up and do well.

 

[Ark of Silence101]

Ok seriously WHO IS NOT either using Wolf or Lucina at this point

Dabuz, WaDi and Cosmos are a few that come to mind.

 

[MG_3989]

Ok seriously WHO IS NOT either using Wolf or Lucina at this point.

I swaer unless you use a character that already requires a load of investment. ( / ). You can just pick on of the two up and do well.

All the Ness loyalists are still playing Ness but that’s they’d play Ness even if he was bad but since he’s good and viable that’s just more incentive. I don’t think Void is playing either of them nor Cosmos nor Light nor Larry and a couple others like ESAM (does he even count?)

 

[Emblem Lord]

Wolf and Lucina are just a little too good for the amount of effort needed. Which is not alot of effort.

 

[Cheryl~]

All the Ness loyalists are still playing Ness but that’s they’d play Ness even if he was bad but since he’s good and viable that’s just more incentive. I don’t think Void is playing either of them nor Cosmos nor Light nor Larry and a couple others like ESAM (does he even count?)

VoiD actually used Wolf as a counterpick to Shuton’s Olimar at Genesis and won the set with him. Other than that I’ve never seen him use the character but he must’ve practiced extensively offscreen because his Wolf was looking pretty hot that set.

As for the topic of the over abundance of Wolf/Lucina players, I’m just surprised that a character I picked up like, Day 3 of the game just because he felt great to play as seems to be the case for a lot of players. Wolf is just a really nice character to play as with all of his strengths and the relative ease that comes with picking him up. He’s just a great character that will still take a lot of skill and mastery of his strengths to succeed at the top level.

 

[fozzy fosbourne]

Wolf and Lucina feel like a shoto and a chun li good buttons character from early SF, to me. Just easy to pick up and start doing fundamental smash things with them.

Watching Tweek raise all of the characters to elite, even a player of his caliber was having a hard time picking up more awkward characters like Greninja and ZSS. He still bodied the average online person with them, but the difference between that and a character with more standard hitboxes/movement etc was pretty pronounced.

It was also interesting to observe that he had not even played many of the characters yet in Ultimate. I think it was his first time playing Greninja, ZSS, Mega Man on stream. Who are all characters in that potential bubble.