Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

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MG_3989

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Wolf and Lucina feel like a shoto and a chun li good buttons character from early SF, to me. Just easy to pick up and start doing fundamental smash things with them.

Watching Tweek raise all of the characters to elite, even a player of his caliber was having an hard time picking up more awkward characters like Greninja and ZSS. He still bodied the average online person with them, but the difference between that and a character with more standard hitboxes/movement etc was pretty pronounced.
I mean even as innately talented he is at the game their are definitely very specific things you have to learn for them and even pros can’t learn it in a day or two. Which is what everyone has been saying and why they’ll shine through at later times and I’m probably being redundant
 

Gearkeeper-8a

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90% of the playerbase especially top players will play characters that are easy to play or have the least amount of effort needed to success because they can use that effort in other things, is why players doesn't research matchups until they need to fight said matchup in a tournament, is why they want less legal layout of stages so they don't need to remember different moves interactions or stage especific combos, some players doesn't even counterpick when they can or default to pokemon stadium 2 or Battlefield even if the character they use isn't good in it, the same way players in smash 4 went to sheikville even if was a terrible matchup, hell mixed hazard was hard enough to the playerbase.
 

AxelVDP

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:ultlittlemac: Fits this description much better, as his design is basically a gimmick. Giving him good airials and recoveries would erase that gimmick, and adding that to his speed and good ground game, he’d have the potential to be broken. It’s why so many people(myself included) think he’s unfixable.
Except that the opinion of him being unfixable is wrong and based on poor understanding on the character and/or the way the game works.
Mac does not need a lot to become better and not broken: slightly increase his jump height, make his tilts work properly (they are kinda ""undertuned"" as of now) and make his sideb not vanish after getting hit (at the very least not when starting it on the ground).
I could even work without increased jump height if they made usmash and upb actually threatening...

but I think all of this was explained better by Thinkaman in some earlier post (if you're reading this: I love you <3)
 

MG_3989

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90% of the playerbase especially top players will play characters that are easy to play or have the least amount of effort needed to success because they can use that effort in other things, is why players doesn't research matchups until they need to fight said matchup in a tournament, is why they want less legal layout of stages so they don't need to remember different moves interactions or stage especific combos, some players doesn't even counterpick when they can or default to pokemon stadium 2 or Battlefield even if the character they use isn't good in it, the same way players in smash 4 went to sheikville even if was a terrible matchup, hell mixed hazard was hard enough to the playerbase.
Exactly and that makes perfect sense because they’re making a living off this and they have to be as efficient as possible and playing characters like Lucina and Wolf is incredibly efficient. They need to see results and reward to make a living. Streamers have the luxury of trying out different characters BUT if they also go to tournaments they’ll probably wanna practice the Wolf and Lucina more anyway
 

Gearkeeper-8a

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Exactly and that makes perfect sense because they’re making a living off this and they have to be as efficient as possible and playing characters like Lucina and Wolf is incredibly efficient. They need to see results and reward to make a living. Streamers have the luxury of trying out different characters BUT if they also go to tournaments they’ll probably wanna practice the Wolf and Lucina more anyway
Ah yes that isn't a problem, what is the problem is the culture that some of these top players have developed in the rest of the smash community, these issues can go from overused memes to bigger things like harassment, bad rulesets(smash 4), and toxic actitude in general.
 

Megamang

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They could make marth's tipper hitboxes either bigger or more rewarding without touching Lucina. They could also make his sourspots a bit better, though this feels pretty unlikely to me.


Marth's bair killing makes sense, Lucina bair kills feel pretty absurd when you compare it to other moves that are slower, weaker, and don't have disjoint. That move is fkin good.

Honestly just nerf her damage a bit so that there is a feeling of 'Marth would have been better there' at any point in the match and you have a thoughtful nerf. IDK, im not calling for nerfs and I think flocking to top tiers is more of a community habit than a balance issue at this point. At least the top tiers now have meaningful weaknesses, and even bad characters feel pretty useful in a number of situations.


With the popularity of this game, of course people want results. People dropped their mains in every smash title. Maybe we feel it a bit more now because of the huge roster, when you lose a top rep for your character it can feel like a big loss.
 
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MKLeo said he is going to keep using :ultwolf: at Heart of Battle until (or if) he gets sent to losers. Looking how he just 3-0'd Stroder , making a 1 to 3 stock comeback during game 3 it may not just be becasue of Wolf in this case. I think MKLeo could of used :ultkirby::ultbowserjr: or even:ultlittlemac: and still make top 8 somehow. His fundamentals just seem that perfect
 
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Mister M

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Can marth combo or set up into guaranteed tippers at all in this game?

Consistent tippers was the only reason he was better than Lucina and regaining access to them would immediately make her irrelevant again
 
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MG_3989

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Can marth combo or set up into guaranteed tippers at all in this game?

Consistent tippers was the only reason he was better than Lucina and regaining access to them would immediately make her irrelevant again
I mean if he could I’m sure we’d know about it by now. I didn’t play 4 but I heard a lot of his set ups don’t work anymore. Maybe there are set ups people haven’t found yet but there’s been a ton of time to lab

Idk though I don’t play Marth this is just from what I know
 

Idon

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Can marth combo or set up into guaranteed tippers at all in this game?

Consistent tippers was the only reason he was better than Lucina and regaining access to them would immediately make her irrelevant again
None carry over from Smash 4 I believe. If they do, they're probably more situational.
 

Y2Kay

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Don’t forget his incredible edgeguarding including tools such as a counter that spikes and an angleable windbox that can cover low recovery, high recovery OR punish you as he returns to the stage after missing an edgeguard.

But you know, bad OoS and stuff, mid tier.

I wouldn’t say I’ve been particularly low key with my opinions. After an initial wobble over Greninja’s still-atrocious OoS game (it’s the worst in the game, I don’t see how Lucario’s or anyone else’s is worse when literally everyone else has either a faster grab, good Up B/Usmash or rising aerial, usually 2 or more of those things) I’ve been pretty vocal about how strong I think he is. Bad OoS is a big deal but not an insurmountable problem when everything else is so good, particularly his kill power and damage output for a character of his mobility. Greninja is the type of character that is traditionally top tier and people are generally comfortable with being top tier.

You can’t blame the players for being low key about froggo’s strength though. The word “potential” has become a meme and a lot of frog mains were shouted down in the S4 days for saying he was above mid tier, before iStudying and Venia started to turn heads. Plus he’s still relatively hard to play and unpopular in the US. If that changes I don’t think it’ll take long for Greninja to be commonly known as a top tier, even if (much like Peach) he’ll be too hard to play to be a FOTM character.
The main thing holding Greninja back is his perception in the community and how completely HORRIBLE it is to play him on WiFi. Not even his kit, tbh.

:150:
 

Krysco

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I don't use Marth so someone with more knowledge can correct me on this but given the question of guaranteed tippers above, I just did a quick test of his moves in training. Jab 2, ftilt, dtilt, sour dash attack, fair and bair all cause tech chase scenarios which could lead into a tipper if you can follow up and space well. Shield Breaker and Dancing Blade can too but have quite a bit of endlag. Sour uair pops up to allow follow ups, possibly into tipper uair and utilt. First hit of nair pops up to to lead into utilt or uair or possibly even fair, bair or ftilt. Not too many guaranteed tipper options from what I can see but quite a few tech chase options if they aren't too laggy. Pretty sure most tipper set ups in Sm4sh were from tipper Jab 1 which no longer pops up.
 

MG_3989

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I don't use Marth so someone with more knowledge can correct me on this but given the question of guaranteed tippers above, I just did a quick test of his moves in training. Jab 2, ftilt, dtilt, sour dash attack, fair and bair all cause tech chase scenarios which could lead into a tipper if you can follow up and space well. Shield Breaker and Dancing Blade can too but have quite a bit of endlag. Sour uair pops up to allow follow ups, possibly into tipper uair and utilt. First hit of nair pops up to to lead into utilt or uair or possibly even fair, bair or ftilt. Not too many guaranteed tipper options from what I can see but quite a few tech chase options if they aren't too laggy. Pretty sure most tipper set ups in Sm4sh were from tipper Jab 1 which no longer pops up.
I mean it seems like that’s enough especially because you use dtilt, ftilt, fair, and jab a lot especially. All those moves you use pretty often and most have other moves that combo into them. Again I’m not a Marth player though so idk. Marth still seems like he has a ton of potential to me. I guess a lot of them being tech chases takes away some of their usefulness but still
 
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MG_3989

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Even Gluttony's got a Lucina:
Salty Arena Cup #1
2/9/19
128 entrants

Top 8

1st. Gluttony :ultwario::ultlucina:
I mean it makes sense to have her in your pocket. She’s not hard to learn and she covers so many bad matchups. Wario doesn’t have the range doesn’t have the range for the matchup? That’s ok, use Lucina

I’m sure most pro players with good fundamentals can pick her up and use her at a very high level in less than a week because all she really is is spacing and fundamentals
 
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Shaya

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A lot sword hitboxes, including Marth's, had a vertical shift (assuming the sword is in a horizontal position), I believe mostly downwards.
This changed the way he had to space tippers, I'm not sure if it's universal, but anecdotally I'm pretty sure this is the case for fair/bair and it has been shown this way on nair. Up Tilt and the like are weird but I'm not sure if it's the exact same.

I realised this a while ago and have generally adjusted my spacing to be mostly consistent. However, there are some hiccups. The problem is also exacerbated by the inconsistency of c-stick for extra directional inputs you do not want.
The combination of the two have great consequence on Back Air, altering how the move worked at it's peaks (first and last few frames), that are where the move was predominately aimed to hit.
In Smash 4, as a result of the animation and centred hitbox placement, the move was difficult NOT to tipper on the rise verse a grounded opponent (near point blank oos bairs was a broken option for Marth). The tipper hitbox protruded a lot more horizontally at it's lowest vertical point thus its ease for tippering on frame 7.

With the lowered hitbox, I would imagine the extent of area of which the tipper hitbox was horizontally on f7 is smaller, and in practice this seems to be the case - Marth's rising bair can whiff shorter characters or sour spot while in smash4 I'm sure it would be 'easier'.


In contrast, the other 'optimal' spacing was the final two frames (perhaps they reduced bairs hitbox length by 1 frame too?), that in a similar fashion to the first frame essentially auto-tippered people above you as you rose or they fell towards you.

tl;dr Marth spacing tipper aerials was essentially solved late in Brawl's life time and through standardizing hitbox placement (in Brawl basically every move was different) it became even easier in smash4. For Ultimate they recognised this and did the shifts (I await full hitbox placements for a lot of my characters tbh), plus added semi-RNG to tilt stick. Joy. For forward air it's fine (IIRC this is how it was in Brawl) because lowered hitboxes work for its overhead animation, but for upper cuts it's generally counter productive.

I could foresee them increasing the rewards of tippers over time.
Or maybe they can just shift back air hitboxes back, this baby not being our easy bake auto tipper killing machine really sucks.
 
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Gearkeeper-8a

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I think one of the reason why wolf is so popular is that he returns to the stage for free especially against not so high level characters, not to mention that he has excellent ledgeguard that smash 4 players love to do, he is like a pseudo fusion of smash 4 cloud and sheik, i don't know if he will go down like cloud as the players get better at fighting him.
 

MG_3989

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I think one of the reason why wolf is so popular is that he returns to the stage for free especially against not so high level characters, not to mention that he has excellent ledgeguard that smash 4 players love to do, he is like a pseudo fusion of smash 4 cloud and sheik, i don't know if he will go down like cloud as the players get better at fighting him.
I wouldn’t say he returns to the stage for free. You can drop down on him with a counter or disjointed hitboxes and swords pretty easily and it takes 3 frames for side b to snap invincibility on edge. Ness can edgeguard him with the tail of PK Thunder and a lot of other projectiles can edgeguard him too. I’m sure the rats fairs and dairs can edgeguard him and that’s just a few examples

I would say there’s a lot more characters who have an easier time getting back on stage than Wolf. Yeah his side B and up B can be dangerous off stage but it’s worth the risk to edgeguard him and I think we’ll see him getting gimped and edgeguarded more and more

In the long run in this game I think most characters will need to be able to edgeguard and ledgetrap with edgeguarding being more important and I think Wolf’s biggest flaw is he can only really edgeguard with blaster. I don’t know where Wolf will end up in the long run but I have a feeling people will get less scared of going off stage against him
 

fozzy fosbourne

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Yeah, I think if people don’t have experience challenging wolf’s recovery they don’t mess with it at all out of fear of those hit boxes. Mars was challenging it last night with ZSS against Leo’s wolf.

Btw, people curious about ZSS should check out those matches.
 
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Wolf is pretty damn free offstage.

You have to stuff him during the start-up of his recovery moves.
I think the thing about Wolf's up-b is that is starts up a good deal faster than his fellow spacies. So I think many people still see Wolf trying to recover with and think they are edgeguarding Fox thinking "oh look at that I got lots of time before they even start moving to go and gimp that" only to get blown up .

and yeah the hitboxes and intangability on Fire Wolf is pretty nuts. It is a lot harder to challenge while it is actullay active than say Fox's.

It Wolfs's Side-B that is a lot more suspect. Itchas more distance, and is ridiculously poweful when you hit the sweetspot. But unless it is aimed immaculately when trying to recover. Wolf will pop just above the ledge before grabbing it. making him easy prey for a ledgeguard from a ready opponent.

Still Despite MKLeo just being Leo. His matches showed that Wolf can lose to characters that can easily combo him due-to being a fast-faller and can easily edgeguard and have nothing to fear going deep offstage. :ultpeach:\:ultdaisy::ultzss: look like they can be losing MU's. Same as :ultpikachu::ultpichu:
 
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LightLV

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Lucina is just easier than Marth, she doesn't require spacing or much thinking to kill you. She's always been that way, which is why I thought she was better than Marth even in Smash 4.


Honestly, i'd just up the Shield Damage ratio on his tipper attacks and call it a day. If they did that, i'd play him over Lucina 100% of the time.

If Lucina is going to be overall more consistent at killing you, then Marth deserves to be CONSISTENTLY rewarded for landing tipper. If he's playing the range correctly, you should consistently be afraid of the tip of his sword.


Both of them are dangerous on defense reads anyway because of shield breaker and the higher prominence of shieldpokes in this game. But I think that would definitely add another layer to Marth's gameplan.
 
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I think they should make Marth's sourspot f-smash a little better at killing, right now it's such a gamble throwing out his f-smash, which makes Lucina's seem much better in general since it has a much higher rate of success. This was the case in Smash 4 as well, but Marth had things that made up for it such as jab into f-tilt and perfect pivoting to space tippers and such. With that being said, I don't think Marth is a bad character, it's just that Lucina is overall better and easier to play, so there's less incentive to play Marth. I also don't think Lucina is as good as people seem to think she is, this is early meta and she's an easy character to play and she and Marth were popular in Smash 4 as well so it's no big surprise that she's doing well. As time goes on and people discover more advanced tech with other characters, it seems likely that Lucina will fall off a bit (perhaps even out of top 10, we'll see).

Pichu is another character I think is a tad overrated. Pichu is a character with great strengths but also fairly significant flaws, such as: Low range, self-damage (it does add up quite a bit), and being extremely light. His up-B doesn't have a hitbox so he's easier to edgeguard and ledgetrap than Pikachu, and he's not very good at playing defensively (can't really camp with Thunder Jolts due to self-damage). He's very good and I do think he's going to remain a top 10 character, but I don't think he's top 5 at the moment (if new techs are discovered that might change things though, of course). He's good, but a tad overrated.

Who are the top 5 characters, then? I cannot know with certainly at this time, but right now I'm thinking: Peach/Daisy*, Fox, Olimar, Wolf, and Inkling.

*They're essentially the same character, so I'm counting this at top 5 rather than top 6.
 
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I think one of the reason why wolf is so popular is that he returns to the stage for free especially against not so high level characters, not to mention that he has excellent ledgeguard that smash 4 players love to do, he is like a pseudo fusion of smash 4 cloud and sheik, i don't know if he will go down like cloud as the players get better at fighting him.
Wolf is popular because he's easy to use and you get great reward for that ease of use.
 
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Wolf is popular because he's easy to use and you get great reward for that ease of use.

You know So many people (myself included) have been comparing Wolf to Smash 4 Sheik, but now he is feeling a lot more like Smash 4 Cloud (when he was new) In being relatively easy to use and getting good reward of fundmentals, and nearly everyone has him as pocket character, at the beginning at least

Also Wolf also seems like he is going to be a very strong Doubles character. Not as utterly meta dominating as Cloud was in Smash 4 doubles but very still good.
He has the blaster, racks up damage fast and his partner can easily set up and launch opponents into his many, many kill options. Basically mitigating his lack of solo kill-confrims
 
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Emblem Lord

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I think the thing about Wolf's up-b is that is starts up a good deal faster than his fellow spacies. So I think many people still see Wolf trying to recover with and think they are edgeguarding Fox thinking "oh look at that I got lots of time before they even start moving to go and gimp that" only to get blown up .

and yeah the hitboxes and intangability on Fire Wolf is pretty nuts. It is a lot harder to challenge while it is actullay active than say Fox's.

It Wolfs's Side-B that is a lot more suspect. Itchas more distance, and is ridiculously poweful when you hitvthe sweetspot. But unless it is aimed immaculately when trying to recover. Wolf will pop just above the ledge before grabbing it. making him easy prey for a ledgeguard from a ready opponent.

Still Despite MKLeo just being Leo. His matches showed that Wolf can lose to characters that can easily combo him due-to being a fast-faller and can easily edgeguard and have nothing to fear going deep offstage. :ultpeach:\:ultdaisy::ultzss: look like they can be losing MU's. Same as :ultpikachu::ultpichu:
If this is the case than Wolf/Lucina is a perfect top tier shell.

Minimal training needed and Lucina seems to cover matches that Wolf loses.
 
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If this is the case than Wolf/Lucina is a perfect top tier shell.

Minimal training needed and Lucina seems to cover matches that Wolf loses.

Wow...I wonder if this is What MKLeo thinks too or has caught onto first. Becasue yeah the Wolf/Lucina combo does look very strong and Leo has proven to use them both very well.

I dont think he will stop Using Ike as long as he get get to Top 8 using him, but that shell combined with Leo's godly fundamentals can seem near-unstoppable
 
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bc1910

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Wolf’s worst MU is thought to be Lucina herself, so you’d better be good at the ditto with that combination. She covers the thunder rats and Ike nicely though.

Worth having both in your pocket anyway with their ease and whatnot.
 
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The idea that playing high-skill-floor characters like Peach and Olimar instead of low-skill-floor characters like Wolf and Lucina takes more effort is ridiculous. The skill floor doesn't matter in a tournament setting because no one plays at the skill floor. To play any character at a high or top level you need to be way beyond the point where you're actively thinking about and engaging with the technical requirements of the character that you're playing. In a high-stakes match, you're only engaging with your opponent and your own mindset.

The best players play for thousands and thousands of games with their mains. Awkward character X might be difficult to use for the first 50 games, or the first 100, or even the first 200, but after 1k or 2k games, the awkwardness should have been stamped out by muscle memory.

This is all a clever john in disguise.
 

fozzy fosbourne

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The idea that playing high-skill-floor characters like Peach and Olimar instead of low-skill-floor characters like Wolf and Lucina takes more effort is ridiculous. The skill floor doesn't matter in a tournament setting because no one plays at the skill floor. To play any character at a high or top level you need to be way beyond the point where you're actively thinking about and engaging with the technical requirements of the character that you're playing. In a high-stakes match, you're only engaging with your opponent and your own mindset.

The best players play for thousands and thousands of games with their mains. Awkward character X might be difficult to use for the first 50 games, or the first 100, or even the first 200, but after 1k or 2k games, the awkwardness should have been stamped out by muscle memory.

This is all a clever john in disguise.
What’s the Johns in this case? I feel like johns sometimes becomes Godwin's Law for smashers =)
 

Untouch

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The idea that playing high-skill-floor characters like Peach and Olimar instead of low-skill-floor characters like Wolf and Lucina takes more effort is ridiculous. The skill floor doesn't matter in a tournament setting because no one plays at the skill floor. To play any character at a high or top level you need to be way beyond the point where you're actively thinking about and engaging with the technical requirements of the character that you're playing. In a high-stakes match, you're only engaging with your opponent and your own mindset.

The best players play for thousands and thousands of games with their mains. Awkward character X might be difficult to use for the first 50 games, or the first 100, or even the first 200, but after 1k or 2k games, the awkwardness should have been stamped out by muscle memory.

This is all a clever john in disguise.
That isn't what people are saying.
They're saying that it is much easier to pick up Wolf/Lucina so a lot of people have them as pocket characters, which gives them better results and skews things.
This happened with Cloud in Smash 4 too. It isn't about skill level at all.
 
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ESAM creates a Pika Mu
Only Olimar has a winning MU against Pika and Ness is close.

What is your opinion in this MU?
I mean, Pikachu's definitely a good character, and I'm not trying to put down the dude's skill, but isn't it pretty much a meme at this point that ESAM habitually overrates the character? "Only loses to Olimar and sort-of-kind-of Ness" makes me suspicious -- I'd expect more people to pick him up if that were really the case.
 
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The idea that playing high-skill-floor characters like Peach and Olimar instead of low-skill-floor characters like Wolf and Lucina takes more effort is ridiculous. The skill floor doesn't matter in a tournament setting because no one plays at the skill floor. To play any character at a high or top level you need to be way beyond the point where you're actively thinking about and engaging with the technical requirements of the character that you're playing. In a high-stakes match, you're only engaging with your opponent and your own mindset.

The best players play for thousands and thousands of games with their mains. Awkward character X might be difficult to use for the first 50 games, or the first 100, or even the first 200, but after 1k or 2k games, the awkwardness should have been stamped out by muscle memory.

This is all a clever john in disguise.
Not really it's important to remember that everyone playing this game is human. Even at the top levels their will be mistakes. When you play easier characters you can mitigate that to extent. There's no Johns tbh just the truth simple stop at the highest levels tend to be better.
 

Rocketjay8

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I mean, Pikachu's definitely a good character, and I'm not trying to put down the dude's skill, but isn't it pretty much a meme at this point that ESAM habitually overrates the character? "Only loses to Olimar and sort-of-kind-of Ness" makes me suspicious -- I'd expect more people to pick him up if that were really the case.
I heard that Pikachu loses to Mario as well.
 
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I mean, Pikachu's definitely a good character, and I'm not trying to put down the dude's skill, but isn't it pretty much a meme at this point that ESAM habitually overrates the character? "Only loses to Olimar and sort-of-kind-of Ness" makes me suspicious -- I'd expect more people to pick him up if that were really the case.
#ESAMOpinions.... yeah ESAM is an amazing player no doubt, but like ZeRo that does not mean there word is always law here
 
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