Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Omnos]

Yeah this tier list doesn't seem that wonderful (to me anyways).

• Wolf is being a bit overrated.
• Palutena, Link, and Mega Man should all be around 20 spots lower.
• I don't think Sonic or Luigi should be that low.
• Bowser, Dr. Mario, and Falco could all move up to A tier with Sonic and Luigi.
• The only characters that I think he has right in C Tier are Little Mac, Ice Climbers, and Mii Brawer. Everyone else is at least B Tier.

And even though I don't think it's great, I actually still agree with a lot of it like most of A and B Tiers along with characters 6-15.

How is wolf being overrated? Have you not watched any recent majors?

Please explain these insane claims you're making. Why don't you think palutena and link are high tier?

Bowser and Dr. Mario should be a tier in your opinion? Sounds absurd with no results in majors to justify it.
The best Luigi's in the game elegant and concon had extremely poor showing at g6.

 

[LightLV]

Sheik didn’t really fall off in smash 4, considering nerfs, and she had trouble killing/was light. Pichu does what sheik did but better basically, just more risk/reward. He dies earlier, but can kill like a superheavy at times it feels like. With the consistency pros have, I don’t see him falling too much (though it is possible). I guess the counter to my point is that pros will also get better at punishing him, so maybe I’ve just gone full circle in this post lol.

well i think the difference between Sheik's archetype in Smash 4 vs Ultimate is that the options Shiek had that made her good were almost exclusive to that one type of character throughout the entire roster. It was the mechanics of the game what allowed her to dominate everyone, she was literally playing a different game than other characters.

Smash 4's mechanics lacked any real balance towards offensive play, so once people realized that characters with low landing lag could ACTUALLY play offensively, that became the big judge for whether or not a character was good or not.

-Overbuffed recoveries lowered the downside of having a low weight and she had one of the best recoveries in the game
-Overbuffed defense lowered the amount of pressure you could put on her
-Exclusive landing lag allowed her to pressure other character's defense in ways that nobody else could (safe on shield)
-Rage gave her access to kill strength when at disadvantage that she'd not otherwise have
-One of few characters in the entire game with kill setups after grab, giving her relatively accessible kill options than many characters who were supposed to be better at it

In ultimate though, the mechanics have lowered the gap in speed between the "fastest" and "slowest" characters. Edgeguarding is significant again which gives a downside to being launched off, ALOT of characters have access to decent kill moves they otherwise would have had to make hard reads for, defense is nerfed and offense has been increased across the board, so her ability to pressure shields is no longer exclusive anymore. Pichu is incredibly overbearing but the difference in this game is that for characters like Pichu and Shiek, them being fast and light is actually a significant liability for them. Thats why I think they're going to fall off.

Not super hard or anything, but I think people are currently putting alot of weight on their strengths simply because of how Smash has been in the past. But Ultimate's mechanics ACTUALLY allow for more than one playstyle to excel now.


Like, when i see "Light vs Heavy" on this game, the matches tend to be REALLY slingshotty as the players start understanding the matchup....and that's generally how those matchups are supposed to go. But on Smash 4 it would usually just be a wash.

It'll be a Pichu vs Bowser match where Pichu is up 3-1, and then Bowser just starts making reads and ties it up in like 30 seconds.

 

[MG_3989]

One last thought on this tier list. The Belmonts look a little high. I think they’re extremely exploitable characters and they don’t have the tools to make up for their awful recovery. Seriously one hit off stage at about 40% kills them if they try to recover low and they get gimped and spiked so easily. They have a powerful ledge trap game I’ll give them that. Also their projectiles are good especially the axe and the cross, but the chain might be their best tool. I think their pattern becomes very predictable (unless they’re really good with the axe) and pretty easy to jump/shield through and they don’t have many tools to adapt once you get in on them. Their disadvantage is really really bad, so if you get in on them it’s over

This isn’t saying they don’t have powerful tools and they’re not capable of dominating certain matchups when they play well, because they are. They might have the best ledgetrap in the game when they set it up right the problem is that they have to get you offstage first. They’re not versatile. They have trouble adapting and mixing up. I don’t think they’re bad characters I just don’t think they’re high tier. I know my analysis sounded harsh and I really don’t think they’re bad I just think they’re too high on that list

Well I am not sure than Wolf is better thsn Fox ( Like MKleo and ESAM) think. But i think its safe to say that Wolf is not really that overated either. He bay be the current flavor of the month right now, but he has been getting results consistently even before he became that.
Surprisgnly Wolf actullay seems a bit harder to edgegaurd and gimp than Fox despite technically having weaker recovery options. Which is the reason Leffen thinks Fox will fall off eventullay

It seems like Wolf hits harder at the edge and can mixup better than Fox. Kind of like how Zackray was using Wolf’s up b like a PK Thunder 2 to pick up kills through the ledge and when he was being edgeguarded. I think Zackray is the main reason why Wolf is so high honestly

 

[Ziodyne 21]

One last thought on this tier list. The Belmonts look a little high. I think they’re extremely exploitable characters and they don’t have the tools to make up for their awful recovery. Seriously one hit off stage at about 40% kills them if they try to recover low and they get gimped and spiked so easily. They have a powerful ledge trap game I’ll give them that. Also their projectiles are good especially the axe and the cross, but the chain might be their best tool. I think their pattern becomes very predictable (unless they’re really good with the axe) and pretty easy to jump/shield through and they don’t have many tools to adapt once you get in on them. Their disadvantage is really really bad, so if you get in on them it’s over

This isn’t saying they don’t have powerful tools and they’re not capable of dominating certain matchups when they play well, because they are. They might have the best ledgetrap in the game when they set it up right the problem is that they have to get you offstage first. They’re not versatile. They have trouble adapting and mixing up. I don’t think they’re bad characters I just don’t think they’re high tier. I know my analysis sounded harsh and I really don’t think they’re bad I just think they’re too high on that list


It seems like Wolf hits harder at the edge and can mixup better than Fox. Kind of like how Zackray was using Wolf’s up b like a PK Thunder 2 to pick up kills through the ledge and when he was being edgeguarded. I think Zackray is the main reason why Wolf is so high honestly

Ehh nothing new that many chararacters tier placings can depend on just one player doing very well with a character. Ike likely places so high now because of MKLeo

 

[The_Bookworm]

The loss of the cheese from his up b was a big loss though. It's one of the worst recoveries in the game and now it doesn't scare opponents off stage unless they're already down a stock.

Leffens advice was for smash 4 players to start edge guarding. Something people are doing effectively now, which makes it even harder for chrom to recover.

From what I have heard from players, if Chrom's up B is initiated anywhere below the stage, then the opponent still dies first. I am sure that it is more complex than that (didn't do any extensive testing myself), but it seems like the danger of up B when recovering is still intact.

Also, as long as it KOs at 0% (which it still does), the move is still cheesy.

 

[MG_3989]

Ehh nothing new that many chararacters tier placings can depend on just one player doing very well with a character. Ike likely places so high now because of MKLeo

I mean that’s basically what tier lists and the meta are. Leo mastered Ike and Zackray (I still can’t get over the fact that he’s 15) mastered Wolf and they might be the two most gifted and talented players in the world (not saying they’re the best but Leo might be) so of course those characters are going to look dominant at tournament and people are just gonna copy what they do and optimize them faster.

That’s why it’s hard to ever truly gauge a tier list even in something as old as Melee because you have no idea if every characters been pushed to their full potential. We can speculate on what is good and what works but I don’t think a tier list can ever be concrete

 

[Nate1080]

One last thought on this tier list. The Belmonts look a little high. I think they’re extremely exploitable characters and they don’t have the tools to make up for their awful recovery. Seriously one hit off stage at about 40% kills them if they try to recover low and they get gimped and spiked so easily. They have a powerful ledge trap game I’ll give them that. Also their projectiles are good especially the axe and the cross, but the chain might be their best tool. I think their pattern becomes very predictable (unless they’re really good with the axe) and pretty easy to jump/shield through and they don’t have many tools to adapt once you get in on them. Their disadvantage is really really bad, so if you get in on them it’s over

This isn’t saying they don’t have powerful tools and they’re not capable of dominating certain matchups when they play well, because they are. They might have the best ledgetrap in the game when they set it up right the problem is that they have to get you offstage first. They’re not versatile. They have trouble adapting and mixing up. I don’t think they’re bad characters I just don’t think they’re high tier. I know my analysis sounded harsh and I really don’t think they’re bad I just think they’re too high on that list


It seems like Wolf hits harder at the edge and can mixup better than Fox. Kind of like how Zackray was using Wolf’s up b like a PK Thunder 2 to pick up kills through the ledge and when he was being edgeguarded. I think Zackray is the main reason why Wolf is so high honestly

I thought it was agreed upon a few pages ago that Belmonts are mid tier?

Edit: Wait, I just saw the previous page lol.

 

[MG_3989]

Ok I know this isn’t exactly on the theme of this thread but it kind of is. Wouldn’t it be sick if we had Squad Strike online? Also wouldn’t it be sick if Squad Strike became a bigger event at tournaments? It’s such a good mode, probably the best mode they’ve ever made other than regular Smash. Maybe it’s just all the MvC talk but I’m really liking the idea of Squad Strike right now

And it actually is on the topic of this thread cause you would have to pick characters that balanced out other characters weaknesses and it may make niche characters viable just because they’re great at one or two matchups. I definitely wanna see more Squad Strike. The synergies would matter and the teams would be interesting and it would give some lesser used characters a chance to shine

 

[bc1910]

Leo’s Ike MU chart and tier list:

Ok i made new lists for my sub goal
This is based in my opinion
Pls keep that in mind
This is my channel if you want to say hihttps://t.co/poBYClfSEt pic.twitter.com/vufDk7ZhTA

— LG | MkLeo (@Mkleosb) February 8, 2019

Corrin seems to be more highly regarded by top players than the masses. Tweek last night on stream said he thinks she is pretty good too. She lives in the shadow of the other swordies tho.

I’d swap Palu and Pichu, then move Palu and Pika a bit further down. I’m not sure if top 5 and 6-15 are supposed to be different tiers or if he’s just making the order clear. If they’re different tiers then top 5 is a pretty arbitrary cutoff; I don’t think Fox and maybe Greninja are meaningfully weaker than the top 5 to the point that they should be in the tier below. I think Snake should be several spots higher as well.

I’m nitpicking though; this is a solid list with the best characters spot on, even if the order is debatable. I’d throw ZSS at the bottom of the ordered section as well plus maybe Cloud and Shulk.

His Ike MU chart is interesting, especially with Wolf and Pichu as losing MUs. The respective character discords believe Ike is one of their worst MUs.

 

[NotLiquid]

Leo’s Ike MU chart and tier list:

Ok i made new lists for my sub goal
This is based in my opinion
Pls keep that in mind
This is my channel if you want to say hihttps://t.co/poBYClfSEt pic.twitter.com/vufDk7ZhTA

— LG | MkLeo (@Mkleosb) February 8, 2019

Corrin seems to be more highly regarded by top players than the masses. Tweek last night on stream said he thinks she is pretty good too. She lives in the shadow of the other swordies tho.

Leo, I like you but I'mma keep it real with you chief

Palutena ain't top 5

 

[Rizen]

Leo's chart still overrates Link but perceptions are dropping a bit. The 2 Links in top 64 in Genesis 6 were both secondaries, which is a good role for Link. He player counterpicks well with his big sword and power but struggles in several MUs. People are starting to have more realistic expectations.

Call me annoying but what the heck happened to all the hype? First people call him vastly superior to and now people either think their gap is non existent or that Roy is better(ZeRo and Samsora think so).

I think the nerf to Chrom is being blown out of proportion. I'd rather fight Roy than Chrom due to Roy's sourspots.

I've never understood the hype. He's one of many characters in this game that have really high highs and REALLY low lows.

I just felt like the ability to counterpick him alone will stop him from ever being a meta-dominating pick.

He's undoubtedly a good character, but i think people just hype him mainly because of the typical Smash 4 mindset: "He can Fair you to death, so he must be the best in the game."

I mean, yeah, but he can get gimped just as fast as he can kill you....once his MU becomes more common and he actually has to start working just a littttttle harder for his kills, he's gonna start falling off.


I mean don't get me wrong, he's still good, but i fear more consistent characters like Inkling or Lucina WAY more than Chrom.

Lucina and Inkling are better than chrom but it's easy to pick 2 top 5 characters and say they're better than anyone. Chrom's hard to play against because he can almost instantly slash anywhere around him and continue into chains. He's extremely oppressive at CQC. Kind of like Cloud, his recovery weakness is exaggerated a bit. He has the 4th best airspeed and quick slashes to cover him.

It seems like Wolf hits harder at the edge and can mixup better than Fox. Kind of like how Zackray was using Wolf’s up b like a PK Thunder 2 to pick up kills through the ledge and when he was being edgeguarded. I think Zackray is the main reason why Wolf is so high honestly

This shows how fresh the game still is. Getting killed through the ledge shouldn't happen with proper MU experience.

 

[MG_3989]

l
This shows how fresh the game still is. Getting killed through the ledge shouldn't happen with proper MU experience.

Didn’t really think of it that way. I guess we don’t really know **** yet. In a year or two if we were all to come back and read this we’d peobably laugh at all our opinions

 

[Rizen]

Didn’t really think of it that way. I guess we don’t really know **** yet. In a year or two if we were all to come back and read this we’d peobably laugh at all our opinions

Also Zackray's Wolf was on a level the West wasn't used to. He's really good.

 

[MG_3989]

Also Zackray's Wolf was on a level the West wasn't used to. He's really good.

This is also true. It’s absolutely terrifying to think of how good that kid will be in a year or two. His muscles in his hands haven’t even fully developed yet

 

[Foie]

Has there been much development in Pichu specific counterplay? I feel like campy and defensive play is particularly strong against Pichu since he damages himself, plus being lightest in the game he reached kill percentages faster than any other character.

Then again, Pichu being small and fast means he can close distance relatively easily. Defensive play may just end up ceding stage control and putting yourself in a bad position vs Pichu ftilt and edge play...

 

[Nidtendofreak]

His Ike MU chart is interesting, especially with Wolf and Pichu as losing MUs. The respective character discords believe Ike is one of their worst MUs.

I think it basically boils down to nobody likes fighting against any of those three characters.

Ike's PoV: Stupid rat can just stuff our nair with his mobility and aerials, is a small target to hit, and spikes Aether for free or Ftilt's Quickdraw. And then Wolf's blaster is a pain in the rear, don't even get started on how badly he can mess with Aether as well. Or how well he can punish anything including carrying us off stage.

Pichu's PoV: Great Ike hits us with Nair like twice and we die because a breeze KOs us and his Uair hits like TNT strapped to a truck. And we can't stop him from trying to edgeguard us anyway he wants because our Up B has no hitbox and does weird things to our hurtbox and Eruption is scary with that combo.

Wolf's PoV: Ike carries people off stage easily. We don't like being off stage. Also we borderline can't challenge Nair because we don't have Fox's speed.

 

[SwagGuy99]

How is wolf being overrated? Have you not watched any recent majors?

Please explain these insane claims you're making. Why don't you think palutena and link are high tier?

Bowser and Dr. Mario should be a tier in your opinion? Sounds absurd with no results in majors to justify it.
The best Luigi's in the game elegant and concon had extremely poor showing at g6.

I think Wolf is a top 10ish character. Although yes, I have seen Wolf, I just think that there are a few characters that could go between him and the characters that are above him.

Also I think Luigi does have potential, although I would agree that it hasn't been fully realized and it might not be for a while. I also think that his matchups against several relevant characters are actually even (which I could be wrong about) and that his top tier matchups are a lot better than the characters he is sitting around in B Tier.

Also, you talk about Bowser and Doc and I would agree that without results, it is hard to justify but I feel like that they have the tools to get results in competent hands.

Finally, I think that Link suffers from similar issues that he always has and I would place him very low high tier or very very high mid tier to be honest. It's not to say he's bad, but there are other zoners and campers that do the same things he does but better. Not to mention that he's still really slow in terms of movement speed. I also feel that his matchup spread may not be that great but it may be kind of early to tell. Palutena, on the other hand seems to be significantly better than Smash 4. The reason that I feel that she should be lower down is because I still feel that her moveset is still a bit too situational to be that high. However, I think that she does have potential to be higher than what I currently think, especially if she proves herself to be good against swordfighters, fast fallers, or another popular character archetype. The same goes for Link.

 

[earthboundspacefree]

well i think the difference between Sheik's archetype in Smash 4 vs Ultimate is that the options Shiek had that made her good were almost exclusive to that one type of character throughout the entire roster. It was the mechanics of the game what allowed her to dominate everyone, she was literally playing a different game than other characters.

Smash 4's mechanics lacked any real balance towards offensive play, so once people realized that characters with low landing lag could ACTUALLY play offensively, that became the big judge for whether or not a character was good or not.

-Overbuffed recoveries lowered the downside of having a low weight and she had one of the best recoveries in the game
-Overbuffed defense lowered the amount of pressure you could put on her
-Exclusive landing lag allowed her to pressure other character's defense in ways that nobody else could (safe on shield)
-Rage gave her access to kill strength when at disadvantage that she'd not otherwise have
-One of few characters in the entire game with kill setups after grab, giving her relatively accessible kill options than many characters who were supposed to be better at it

In ultimate though, the mechanics have lowered the gap in speed between the "fastest" and "slowest" characters. Edgeguarding is significant again which gives a downside to being launched off, ALOT of characters have access to decent kill moves they otherwise would have had to make hard reads for, defense is nerfed and offense has been increased across the board, so her ability to pressure shields is no longer exclusive anymore. Pichu is incredibly overbearing but the difference in this game is that for characters like Pichu and Shiek, them being fast and light is actually a significant liability for them. Thats why I think they're going to fall off.

Not super hard or anything, but I think people are currently putting alot of weight on their strengths simply because of how Smash has been in the past. But Ultimate's mechanics ACTUALLY allow for more than one playstyle to excel now.


Like, when i see "Light vs Heavy" on this game, the matches tend to be REALLY slingshotty as the players start understanding the matchup....and that's generally how those matchups are supposed to go. But on Smash 4 it would usually just be a wash.

It'll be a Pichu vs Bowser match where Pichu is up 3-1, and then Bowser just starts making reads and ties it up in like 30 seconds.

I do see some of your points (hence why I ended my post being kinda wishy washy about it). However, a few things:

Sheik’s kill confirms weren’t all that consistent, and many people had her killing as one of her main gripes

Worse recoveries means characters like pichu can edgeguarding way better than last game

Rage is weaker which means that characters can live longer oftentimes, whereas sheik got rage janked pretty often last game

I’d argue that edgeguarding being easier and the game being faster actually help light characters more than heavies, since light characters die early anyway, early edgeguarding is a perk skewed in their favor (especially since lighter characters tend to have better than average recovery and heavy characters worse)

 

[bc1910]

I think it basically boils down to nobody likes fighting against any of those three characters.

Ike's PoV: Stupid rat can just stuff our nair with his mobility and aerials, is a small target to hit, and spikes Aether for free or Ftilt's Quickdraw. And then Wolf's blaster is a pain in the rear, don't even get started on how badly he can mess with Aether as well. Or how well he can punish anything including carrying us off stage.

Pichu's PoV: Great Ike hits us with Nair like twice and we die because a breeze KOs us and his Uair hits like TNT strapped to a truck. And we can't stop him from trying to edgeguard us anyway he wants because our Up B has no hitbox and does weird things to our hurtbox and Eruption is scary with that combo.

Wolf's PoV: Ike carries people off stage easily. We don't like being off stage. Also we borderline can't challenge Nair because we don't have Fox's speed.

I don’t play Ike but Wolf is my main secondary and I dabble in Pichu, your analysis is pretty much spot on. Wolf in particular finds it really hard to challenge Ike’s Nair. Overall I think both MUs are fairly even once you lab each character’s advantages and disadvantages, although I could see Pichu pushing away from Ike’s favour as his gameplan is more linear overall and Pichu has more options against Nair. Wolf really doesn’t like that move.

From a Greninja perspective I can agree with the -1. He has the speed to weave away from Nair and punish the landing, can stuff Ike’s side B recovery with shurikens and Aether near the ledge is a free downward substitute which kills at like 30 (although Ike can sometimes drag Greninja with him if he Aethers again and misses the ledge; come 60ish percent Ike just straight up dies). I’m being overly simplistic but I can recognise the basic advantages that would lead to a slight Greninja favour.

 

[Ark of Silence101]

Leo's chart still overrates Link but perceptions are dropping a bit. The 2 Links in top 64 in Genesis 6 were both secondaries, which is a good role for Link. He player counterpicks well with his big sword and power but struggles in several MUs. People are starting to have more realistic expectations.

I think the nerf to Chrom is being blown out of proportion. I'd rather fight Roy than Chrom due to Roy's sourspots.


Lucina and Inkling are better than chrom but it's easy to pick 2 top 5 characters and say they're better than anyone. Chrom's hard to play against because he can almost instantly slash anywhere around him and continue into chains. He's extremely oppressive at CQC. Kind of like Cloud, his recovery weakness is exaggerated a bit. He has the 4th best airspeed and quick slashes to cover him.

This shows how fresh the game still is. Getting killed through the ledge shouldn't happen with proper MU experience.

While I agree the nerf is being blown out of proportion, the direction the meta is taking is not going to do him any favors.

 

[Ffamran]

Exactly, that's why i said his biggest weakness is simply being too honest. Honest characters aren't netplay champions. That's his strength and his weakness.

No character in this game or any competitive game is honest. If they were honest, then they would be losing to every single character they fought. Everyone has some kind of trick up their sleeve. They're all dishonest and deceitful. You're here to win in a fighting game not act out some honor duel you read or see in books, films, and plays dramatizing and glorifying cold-blooded combat.

Falco is probably the worst of them all when you consider his history in Melee and Brawl. Even in Smash 4 and Ultimate, he had **** like Smash 4 Dtilt, Smash 4 Bair, and in both games with some differences, Utilt, Up Smash, Nair, Fair, Falco Phantasm, Reflector, and U-throw.

Yes, but it isn't on any of those characters, it's on Falco. Not to mention the hitbox is pretty narrow.

Mario will box your *** to death and then throw out a fair while ON THE STAGE and get the spike 5x easier than any Falco player could. Yoshi can do the same thing, so can K Rool.

His spike isn't particularly noteworthy IMO. His physics and its hitbox make it average at best and that's even with its impressive frame data IMO. Falco's best edgeguarding tools are Nair and Fair simply because they're infinitely easier to use.

Which I pointed out. Should we go back to Smash 4 Falco Bair? That move was arguably busted, but it was on Falco. There are countless of moves on other characters that are either very good or borderline broken, but they're on that character.

And Falco can't box his opponents to death with his ground normals? We're talking about a character that was a clone of and retained several of Melee Fox's moves. Falco can confirm Dair from his Utilt and U-throw just to **** with you because he can. Bair kills and Nair, Uair, and Fair would put his opponent in a better position most of the time.

So we're going to ignore that most Dair spikes much less spikes in general are around around frame 14 on startup? Characters like Cloud, Falco, Ivysaur, Ken, Luigi, Marthcina, Palutena, the Pits, and Ryu having Dair spikes that are around frame 10 gives them a huge advantage, especially compared to characters who cannot setup their Dair spikes even if theirs are legitimately good or better like Ganondorf's, Samus's, and Zelda's. Some of them don't even trade much like Cloud's Dair hitbox is probably larger than most Dair spikes. Others don't use them primarily as spikes, but get a lot from their lower startup like the Luigi's and the Pits' Dairs allowing them to followup or even combo from other moves where Luigi is the most well-known case for that as he frequently used Dair from D-throw in Smash 4 and continues to do so in Ultimate. If anything, having a Dair spike for most characters is a liability because most of them are slow, generic spikes i.e. situational moves where by having them, they lost the chance to have had something more useful like the Dairs of Fox, Lucario, Mario, Meta Knight, Peach, and Snake. In other words, an actual option to hit below them and fairly quickly or in Mario's case, a pretty awesome multi-hit move with high active frames and good hitboxes.

Ultimate Falco's Dair is far from being extraordinary as a Dair or a spike compared to the ones on Ivysaur, Mario, or Snake, but as a spike, it is not average. With Falco being able to confirm into and confirm from Dair, I see it as less of a spike and more of a Dair that happens to spike. It's also the closest thing he has to a sex kick due to its high active frames and ability to be autocanceled from a hop. The hitbox is awful compared to real sex kicks and even compared to Bair being used like one. That said, crossing up with Nair, Uair, Bair, and Dair are things he can do and maybe should do more.

Regarding Shaya 's post, the main point of it was not that players should think more about how to play the game, when to use and where to use what option, or that they should learn how to make things work, but that almost all players care only about win buttons. I am going to narrow Shaya's use of buttons to win buttons for the purposes of this post.

In any game nowadays, players only care about what can let them win. You see this all the time with questions of "What's the best build?", "What's the best weapon?", "Where can I get the Ultima Weapon?", "Is Chun-Li top tier?", "Which class?", etc. They do not care about understanding how to play the game let alone understanding what makes those things great. Inevitably, you'll see complaints about how they're not winning despite using the best character, best weapon, having the best skills/magic spells, or that they're fighting against a low tier with a top tier, and so on. To them, they should never be able to lose with these win options regardless of anything like using a supposedly beat everything magic spell against an anti-mage or the fact they're just bad at the game.

With regards to fighting games, it's all about win buttons and in most cases those win buttons are moves that let them combo. For instance, what's usually the first thing people ask and look for when a game or character is released? What combos they can do. If not combos, then what exploitable button do they have that can let them beat everyone and everything i.e. what win buttons do they have. Everything else is completely and utterly irrelevant if not worthless to them. You see this all the time where players can barely even move in Smash, Street Fighter, Dragon Ball FighterZ, or whatever on release, but they're all about the day one combos they can do except they rarely land those combos because they aren't able to play the game well.

Still, isn't it pointless to care about anything if you're playing a character with win buttons? You press them and your opponent should not be able to do anything about them and you win. Boom! All the glory, money, *******, and whatever you could want should rain down upon you. As you noted, getting better comes from knowing when and when not to and how and how not to use buttons. In other words, how to win and also, how easy it would be to win. A character with win buttons and an easy way to win is definitely a good character and so would a character who doesn't have win buttons, but their buttons aren't bad either, instead, they have just as an easy time or maybe an even easier time winning. And then you might have a character who has win buttons, but it's kind of hard to win with them. The problem being that it comes back to what Shaya is trying to say and that is almost nobody cares about the how to win part. It's all on the win buttons which obviously should let them win. Win buttons can lead to victory, but learning how to win guarantees victory/more victories. A current example would be MkLeo, Ryo, and Ryuga compared to other Ike players. Ike can have all the absurd win buttons in Ultimate, but can you win with him is the question.

This is also, correct me if I'm wrong, what Emblem Lord has a problem with regarding Ken and Ryu players. They only care about how they can combo, specifically into kill moves where in Smash 4, Ryu was able to kill very early against most characters. Playing the neutral, actually understanding what the shotos' buttons do and can do, and whatever else just flies over their heads. Because of this, I get the feeling Emblem Lord feels like he's surrounded by idiots. And then Ultimate lands and Ryu can't really cheese his way to victory. Players start dropping him left and right or trying to use Ken in hopes that what seems like a better Ryu because he's faster and he can combo more would let them win. Ironic when you consider people initially wrote off Ken when they found out his Shoryuken was weaker or in other words, that Ken didn't have as good of a win button compared to Ryu is what they thought.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Samsora also recently posted his 2.0.0 tier list

https://mobile.twitter.com/Samsora_/status/1093719927595372545

Another one I can mostly agree with, though Wario, Sonic and Puff may bee a bit too low

 

[|RK|]

I just find it funny how people were like omg Genesis 6 had so much diversity! This game has such a bright future! Now everywhere you look are those three characters. I turned on twitch today, most of the pro streamers have the title 'New main!' and its either pichu or wolf.

Yeah, it's been quite the time to pick up Pichu or Wolf...

That said, I think the earlier meta was also devoid of diversity. It was a time of Palutena, Inkling, or Peach. And so it goes.

But that said... Pichu and Wolf are REALLLLLYYY good. And Palu, perhaps a tad overrated in my opinion. But we'll see.

 

[Ffamran]

And so the devil's foot has been revealed. Why is something so adorable so evil?

🤔 pic.twitter.com/3bkwUiK68S

— Meshima (@Meshima_) February 8, 2019

Edit: Didn't check until a few seconds ago, but this is what Wolf's Up Smash looks like. With the hitboxes being visible, it shows more clearly how his Up Smash can be such a good anti-air as he low profiles and then shoots upwards. Now, imagine if he had leg invincibility during Up Smash.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[MG_3989]

Samsora also recently posted his 2.0.0 tier list

https://mobile.twitter.com/Samsora_/status/1093719927595372545

View attachment 191015
Another one I can mostly agree with, though Wario, Sonic and Puff may bee a bit too low

Holy **** Ness is finally getting respect in pro tier lists!!! *knocks on wood*

I don’t have many problems with this one. I’d take , Dr and move them up to B- maybe. Then I’d take Jiggs, K Rool, and Ryu and move them to C+ (Don’t know enough about Plant to place it yet). I’d probably move the Samuses to up to B-. I’d move DK and Bowser up to B and Greninja, YL, and Wario up to B+. I’d personally put Ness right in front of Mega Man but I have no beef with his placing

I’d probably move Pokémon Trainer down to B but there aren’t a whole lot looking at this tier list that is move down. I think this is more accurate than MkLeo’s tier list

Also do you guys ever get too lax against certain matchups and characters and end up losing to a worse player because of it? This has been happening to me with a lot of Ganandorf and K. Rool matchups lately because I kind of check out and I need to fix it fast. I don’t think I’d do it in tournament but I really don’t wanna get in the habit of playing lax against players I perceive as worse than me or characters I should beat

 

[Rizen]

Samsora also recently posted his 2.0.0 tier list

https://mobile.twitter.com/Samsora_/status/1093719927595372545

View attachment 191015
Another one I can mostly agree with, though Wario, Sonic and Puff may bee a bit too low

What I don't get is how people can have Chrom an entire tier below Roy and Marth 2 tiers under Lucina. They have identical frame data, weight and mobility stats. I can see how one is superior but there's barely any differences. I'm in favor of simply ranking true clones as one character spot with the exception of Ryu/Ken who actually have different moves and stats.

 

[Ark of Silence101]

What I don't get is how people can have Chrom an entire tier below Roy and Marth 2 tiers under Lucina. They have identical frame data, weight and mobility stats. I can see how one is superior but there's barely any differences. I'm in favor of simply ranking true clones as one character spot with the exception of Ryu/Ken who actually have different moves and stats.

People say that about Marthcina, yet try to say the same about Chroy and people will still go "Nope, Chrom is way better because he can play with an actual sword, the recovery is negligible".

 

[ATH_]

Samsora also recently posted his 2.0.0 tier list

https://mobile.twitter.com/Samsora_/status/1093719927595372545

View attachment 191015
Another one I can mostly agree with, though Wario, Sonic and Puff may bee a bit too low

Overall I find this list pretty good for current tournament results, but I dunno about Pokemon Trainer being placed above Wario. I'd love to see some reasoning behind that. Tweek has done way more with Wario than Leffen did with PT. Isn't Leffen dropping PT because he felt the character was losing him matches?

Is there a JP player I'm unaware of here? Or do people just think PT has significant untapped potential here?

 

[MG_3989]

Overall I find this list pretty good for current tournament results, but I dunno about Pokemon Trainer being placed above Wario. I'd love to see some reasoning behind that. Tweek has done way more with Wario than Leffen did with PT. Isn't Leffen dropping PT because he felt the character was losing him matches?

Is there a JP player I'm unaware of here? Or do people just think PT has significant untapped potential here?

It’s the “untapped potential” factor. They have so many matchups to learn and Charizard is bad. Leffen dropped him because he didn’t think the work he put in was worth the results. I mean they look like a great character on paper and they’re not bad and I’m sure later in the game if Charizard gets buffed they’ll start showing results but right now it seems like they’re not worth it for top players

 

[KirbySquad101]

That's a list I can mostly get down with as well; just a few things:

I am confused as to how continues to be ranked so low on most tier lists despite Paper, Maister and Regi doing well with him and having a pretty convincing showing at both Glitch and Genesis, unless I'm missing something here. I could be pessimistic and suggest that it's a result of the misconceived notion surrounding him that "different = nerfed", but it could also be because they just missed it.

I'm also not generally convinced on and being +2 tiers apart, though I can clearly see why that's the case if we're going off results; in general, Lucina's more time-effective as a co-main, since you don't have to worry about spacing tippers a majority of the time to get the most out of her. Still, a lot of Lucina's strengths (great coverage and frame data all-around) are strengths Marth has, and even if he is probably the worse of the two, I don't think it's as big as people are making it out to be.

is placed really high, and the fact that he's ranked higher than Greninja, R.O.B., Chrom, and Pac-Man puzzles me. I imagine it's a case of "untapped potential", and to be fair, Nicko has been doing very well with him overall.

 

[Minordeth]

Exactly, that's why i said his biggest weakness is simply being too honest. Honest characters aren't netplay champions. That's his strength and his weakness.

"Look, bottom line: parrying a Lucina Fair, throwing out Utilt, going into a 40% combo that throws her off stage, throwing out a laser to steal her jump, and then run off Dair spiking her to death is... life affirming."

First you have to get the parry. (risky) Then you have to land the combo. (pretty easy but probably requires a specific damage range) Then you have get the laser gimp (Falco knowledge can stop this from happening). Meanwhile Lucina just has to Fsmash you at any point past 70% and touch you with any of her disjointed normals off the stage to win.

Oh, see don’t confuse what is a description of some OD style with what is necessary to beat Lucina. Falco can run people over in, dare I say, dishonest ways, in a similar manner to his spacie brethren.

Regardless, Falco doesn’t need all that to line up to win that MU.

So both Leo and ESAM think Wolf is better than Fox right now. Both had Wolf top-tier thier latest 2.0.0 tier lists while placing Fox a tier lower

Recency bias is a hell of a drug.

I’d swap Palu and Pichu, then move Palu and Pika a bit further down. I’m not sure if top 5 and 6-15 are supposed to be different tiers or if he’s just making the order clear. If they’re different tiers then top 5 is a pretty arbitrary cutoff; I don’t think Fox and maybe Greninja are meaningfully weaker than the top 5 to the point that they should be in the tier below. I think Snake should be several spots higher as well.

I’m nitpicking though; this is a solid list with the best characters spot on, even if the order is debatable. I’d throw ZSS at the bottom of the ordered section as well plus maybe Cloud and Shulk.

His Ike MU chart is interesting, especially with Wolf and Pichu as losing MUs. The respective character discords believe Ike is one of their worst MUs.

Yeahhhh, let's be real, this and Samsora's lists are stratifying things without good reason to do so. Like, Wolf is that much better than Fox? Really? Really?

As an aside, I know you and the other Greninja mains are trying to lowkey the hell out of how good the Frog is now, but let's be real, Greninja is ridiculous and has all the tools to be top tier in this game. That he straight robbed Fox of his dash attack, has a great projectile, has a bazillion kill confirms, a great recovery, and absurd mobility, is just kind of blatantly rude. I'm both surprised and not surprised that most of the Western meta hasn't really been paying that much attention until just recently.

Has there been much development in Pichu specific counterplay? I feel like campy and defensive play is particularly strong against Pichu since he damages himself, plus being lightest in the game he reached kill percentages faster than any other character.

Then again, Pichu being small and fast means he can close distance relatively easily. Defensive play may just end up ceding stage control and putting yourself in a bad position vs Pichu ftilt and edge play...

Campy and defensive play works against Pichu because, check this out: He isn't actually that fast. He is small, though.

Real talk, Pichu is faster than a majority of the cast in absolute run speed. It stands right at 25th out of the cast with a run speed of 1.892. That's its best stat. Characters that run faster include: Toon Link (1.906), Bowser (1.971), Ridley (2.2).

From there, it looks less and less impressive.

Pichu's air speed? 1.029, 45th-47th out of the cast. Its 0.1 air acceleration is the saving grace for that stat, as it's in the upper 9-13th in the cast. Some characters with faster air speed include notable air speed demons Ridley (1.05), Fox (1.11), Little Mac (1.208), and actual aerial speed demon Wolf (1.281).

Pichu's initial dash is 1.98. The same region as Link, Pikachu, and Captain Falcon. Still fast, obviously. But, check this out:
Characters with faster initial dashes include ankle snappers Falco (2.035), Donkey Kong (2.09), Wii Fit Trainer (2.024).

Realistically, Pichu can be camped on. Tjolt only does so much, and the character is a stubby little thing. Hilariously, the Ridleycord and Pichucord had a joint MU discussion, which ended in a crew battle, where the Ridleycord 6-0'd the Pichucord. Yeah, there were technical errors abounding, and it's WiFi, but Pichu still has to work, even with one of the biggest hurtboxes in the game. Why? Because Ridley is faster, with long, ridiculous disjoints. Pichu has to actually get in.

Is the character ridiculous? Of course, but it always amuses me when they say Pichu is fast.

 

[Untouch]

At higher levels, 2 people play Fox that I know of (ZD and Light).
At higher levels it seems like everyone has a pocket Wolf.
It's no wonder that Wolf is getting better results.

 

[KakuCP9]

Oh, see don’t confuse what is a description of some OD style with what is necessary to beat Lucina. Falco can run people over in, dare I say, dishonest ways, in a similar manner to his spacie brethren.

Regardless, Falco doesn’t need all that to line up to win that MU.



Recency bias is a hell of a drug.




Yeahhhh, let's be real, this and Samsora's lists are stratifying things without good reason to do so. Like, Wolf is that much better than Fox? Really? Really?

As an aside, I know you and the other Greninja mains are trying to lowkey the hell out of how good the Frog is now, but let's be real, Greninja is ridiculous and has all the tools to be top tier in this game. That he straight robbed Fox of his dash attack, has a great projectile, has a bazillion kill confirms, a great recovery, and absurd mobility, is just kind of blatantly rude. I'm both surprised and not surprised that most of the Western meta hasn't really been paying that much attention until just recently.



Campy and defensive play works against Pichu because, check this out: He isn't actually that fast. He is small, though.

Real talk, Pichu is faster than a majority of the cast in absolute run speed. It stands right at 25th out of the cast with a run speed of 1.892. That's its best stat. Characters that run faster include: Toon Link (1.906), Bowser (1.971), Ridley (2.2).

From there, it looks less and less impressive.

Pichu's air speed? 1.029, 45th-47th out of the cast. Its 0.1 air acceleration is the saving grace for that stat, as it's in the upper 9-13th in the cast. Some characters with faster air speed include notable air speed demons Ridley (1.05), Fox (1.11), Little Mac (1.208), and actual aerial speed demon Wolf (1.281).

Pichu's initial dash is 1.98. The same region as Link, Pikachu, and Captain Falcon. Still fast, obviously. But, check this out:
Characters with faster initial dashes include ankle snappers Falco (2.035), Donkey Kong (2.09), Wii Fit Trainer (2.024).

Realistically, Pichu can be camped on. Tjolt only does so much, and the character is a stubby little thing. Hilariously, the Ridleycord and Pichucord had a joint MU discussion, which ended in a crew battle, where the Ridleycord 6-0'd the Pichucord. Yeah, there were technical errors abounding, and it's WiFi, but Pichu still has to work, even with one of the biggest hurtboxes in the game. Why? Because Ridley is faster, with long, ridiculous disjoints. Pichu has to actually get in.

Is the character ridiculous? Of course, but it always amuses me when they say Pichu is fast.

Don't forget about its slow fast-speed. Pichu only gets 30% increase from fast-falling as apposed to the average 60% most of the cast gets so SHFF aerials approaches are less effective for Pichu.

 

[ATH_]

Campy and defensive play works against Pichu because, check this out: He isn't actually that fast. He is small, though.

Real talk, Pichu is faster than a majority of the cast in absolute run speed. It stands right at 25th out of the cast with a run speed of 1.892. That's its best stat. Characters that run faster include: Toon Link (1.906), Bowser (1.971), Ridley (2.2).

From there, it looks less and less impressive.

Pichu's air speed? 1.029, 45th-47th out of the cast. Its 0.1 air acceleration is the saving grace for that stat, as it's in the upper 9-13th in the cast. Some characters with faster air speed include notable air speed demons Ridley (1.05), Fox (1.11), Little Mac (1.208), and actual aerial speed demon Wolf (1.281).

Pichu's initial dash is 1.98. The same region as Link, Pikachu, and Captain Falcon. Still fast, obviously. But, check this out:
Characters with faster initial dashes include ankle snappers Falco (2.035), Donkey Kong (2.09), Wii Fit Trainer (2.024).

Realistically, Pichu can be camped on. Tjolt only does so much, and the character is a stubby little thing. Hilariously, the Ridleycord and Pichucord had a joint MU discussion, which ended in a crew battle, where the Ridleycord 6-0'd the Pichucord. Yeah, there were technical errors abounding, and it's WiFi, but Pichu still has to work, even with one of the biggest hurtboxes in the game. Why? Because Ridley is faster, with long, ridiculous disjoints. Pichu has to actually get in.

Is the character ridiculous? Of course, but it always amuses me when they say Pichu is fast.

The "rank" of a character's speed values does not directly represent the character's actual perceived speed. I'd assume most people are referring to Pichu's "unpunishable" frame data in terms of speed.

 

[Minordeth]

The "rank" of a character's speed values does not directly represent the character's actual perceived speed. I'd assume most people are referring to Pichu's "unpunishable" frame data in terms of speed.

I’m aware, and the reason I point this out is because Pichu’s actual mobility and quicker frame data are seemingly conflated together when commentators and the Smash community discuss the character.

Most recently, multiple times during Genesis, commentators referenced how “fast” Pichu was without real context. Random discord folks with MU issues with Pichu generally mention how “fast” it is.

Most of the Smash community has no idea what Pichu’s frame data and attributes are. He just looks “fast.” If you don’t know what your opponent can and can’t do, you will never see all the options you have available.

My post generally addressed some of the misconceptions about the character I still see on Discord and in tournament.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

At higher levels, 2 people play Fox that I know of (ZD and Light).
At higher levels it seems like everyone has a pocket Wolf.
It's no wonder that Wolf is getting better results.

You cannot forget the OG Fox main Larry Lurr. While he did not have exactly the greatest showing at G6 he still is being consistent otherwise. But yea Zackray of course is currently on a diffrent level from other Wolf mains so he kinda overshadows them.. Tweek and Void have shown to have effective pocket Wolf's at G6. ZeRo has stated he uses mainly Wolf now. If he decides to enter competions again that can be one more strong Wolf user

 

[Megamang]

Pretty average speed with mediocre range is a combination that makes keepaway pretty effective. I didn't realize he had a slower FF, that is something worth noting. It makes dropdown edgeguards a bit less able to be mixed up... but, dtilt at the ledge is pretty amazing and tjolt does wonders there.


Tjolt is pretty damn good, its a good thing it hurts pichu or you'd see 600 a match. The way he can run with it is pretty damn useful, shielding it will get you grabbed even with a parry and going up to avoid it is kinda what pichu wants. It'll hit a spotdodge, or get you dtilted into a high damage chain. Rolling past, jumping away, are both things that zoning moves are trying to get you to do. But bad range and multihit fair means that you can jump and continue zoning him. Rolling backwards is pretty obviously a poor choice. Dashing away into b-reversed tjolt is great, it gives you some space and then gets you running with the tjolt pretty damn quickly. The utility of the way it moves on the ground is great, hitting a platform can often bounce it down and pressure beneath.

When you are returning to the stage, if you have a wall down the side of the stage you can put it on a nice timing arc where it will help you back on the ledge. This is a bit of a saving grace because pichu isn't great off the ledge, again the multihit fair is mediocre here. In this situation, you can often get two tjolts rolling right on top of eachother which will combo for pretty serious damage, and an aerial tjolt still does more damage iirc and its significantly more damage than Pikachu.


He actually has good grab range too, which is as effective as it is confusing.

Fsmash is meh compared to pika's, but situations that allow you to land it obviously give you great reward. He makes up for it quite a bit with ftilt.


He just doesn't have any spacing moves at all really, uair is alright above him but again a trade is never gonna be good for pichu. This means he leans into tjolt pretty seriously, depending on the matchup...this is where the self damage really starts to add up. And it kinda slows his momentum a tiny bit that his high damage moves hurt him, basically a small consolation prize when he lands his admittedly powerful BnBs on you. Oh, Thunder has range. And dair will trade and kill you real quick, but with the slower fastfall speed he won't really be able to mix up the timing that much to prevent getting uair swatted away. And since he is a literal feather, this can get you outright killed. The lack of range means some characters can even slap a bair and kill you offstage really early, Lucina comes to mind as punishing you pretty hard if you miss the mark and she bairs you... or you hit the mark and she gets a trade. And agility is pure downgrade from QA as far as I know, its the same frame data and range correct?

With the ability to run into any move , I just can't see pichu staying the top threat he is right now. Ftilt is amazing due to active frames, but a whif in ftilt range means you'll get slapped up all the same. And running up and ftilting will kill him earlier than anyone else with a swordie, which can be painful. Thunder being able to protect him from long range dairs to escape disadvantage is something, but if you miss against link you're getting dair'd and probably dying.

 

[Gearkeeper-8a]

I wonder that if and end underperfoming in the next months as pocket characters like and , would some top players try to main / , , , or maybe search for the next promised pocket character. maybe DLC if they are strong enough?? would the character crisis become too big that some of these top players start to underperfom sharply??, character specialist have the advantage of playing the character from previous smash and inkling is still to new to tell if she is top tier or high tier but even then she is still in a good position.

 

[Nocally]

Going from smash 4 to Ultimate, is MkLeo doing anything different or is him being consistent and proficient with sword characters the answer to his succes?

. And agility is pure downgrade from QA as far as I know, its the same frame data and range correct?

With the ability to run into any move , I just can't see pichu staying the top threat he is right now. Ftilt is amazing due to active frames, but a whif in ftilt range means you'll get slapped up all the same. And running up and ftilting will kill him earlier than anyone else with a swordie, which can be painful. Thunder being able to protect him from long range dairs to escape disadvantage is something, but if you miss against link you're getting dair'd and probably dying.

Agility has longer range than QA, but does recoil damage (1.4% if both "zaps" are used)

 

[The_Bookworm]

Going from smash 4 to Ultimate, is MkLeo doing anything different or is him being consistent and proficient with sword characters the answer to his succes?

Agility has longer range than QA, but does recoil damage (1.4% if both "zaps" are used)

Leo is pretty much the master of sword characters. He just understands them better than anyone else.

Something else to note about Agility that will be very important when counterplay against Pichu actually begins to properly develop: it has no hitbox. Swing any move against it, and it will hit Pichu without any of your moves getting stuffed by a QA hitbox.