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Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

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Ziodyne 21

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There has been something I have been wondering about :ultmetaknight:. Does he still have the niche of being the "floaty killer" that he had in Smash 4. Maybe I have noot seen enough footage of the MU's because i rarely see MK users go for the same up-air ladderd to up-B kill-confirms on them. Was it nerfed or just harder to do now? I know MKLeo had an MK he would occasionally bring out in Smash 4 vs Rosalina's and Peaches, yet he did not use him vs Samsora at G6 hmmm
 
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Rizen

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Fast, but hardddd time killing, and having relatively poor disadvantage. YL's recovery is way more reliable though, but he doesn't have easy kill set ups, as Diddy's Banana > F Smash or D Tilt > U SMash.
YL does have kill setups. Bomb>Usmash and Dtilt>Dair are the equivalents of what you mentioned. He also has Fair1> land Dsmash, Bair 1>land Usmash, soft Nair>tech chase DA or jab lock, and close boomerang to Fair/Dair. His main problem is outside Fsmash, all his kill moves are weak.
I wouldn't say his disadvantage is bad either. Bombs are great at covering landings and can turn disadvantage into a bomb>Dair combo. I like YL's bombs better than Link's because their applications in disadvantage.

The main thing in which I cannot take results in the early metagame seriously, other than the obvious fact that optimizations and counterplay is still too undeveloped, is because top players right now are simply flocking over to the "shiny" character. Those shiny characters are oftentimes good, but easy to play. Chrom was the original shiny character. The main reason why he dipped in popularity after month 1, other than people abusing his recovery better, is because Leo won a tourney with Ike and he became the new shiny choice everyone flocks over.

Those who place high in a tourney and are easy to play, are oftentimes the characters top players flock over. The main reason why imo, is because everyone left SSB4 with an explosive mindset. People are often going to pick easy to play characters with a great reward, no matter how big the risk is (emphasis why Pichu is so popular right now).

By doing this, I don't think the metagame is going to develop properly. Because no top players are investing their time in the hard-to-play/master/technical characters, like Rosa, Falcon, Shulk, Ken/Ryu, and ICs, their metagames cannot properly flourish. Leffen recently dropping the hard-to-master Pokemon Trainer, and looking towards the easy to play Pichu simply as a result of VoiD's good Genesis performance, kind of enforces this.

Fortunately, and hopefully for the sake of the future of Ultimate's metagame, the SSB4 mindset will die down and top players will begin to explore more harder to play characters.

Oh, and patches are a thing as well.
This is what I was saying about YL. He's highly technical but undertuned so there's no reason to invest in him when you can win more easily with Lucina or Wolf.
 

Diddy Kong

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Leffen's Pichu will probably be a sight to behold, his Squirtle knowlegde and experience will really come to shine out now. To be honest, Pokemon Trainer isn't even a real good character I think.
 

Frihetsanka

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It’s his main game
Leffen has explicitly said that he's going to focus on Melee more than Ultimate, so I'm not really sure what makes you think Ultimate is his main game.

I feel like Hbox is perfectly happy being #1 in melee and commenting & competing more casually in ultimate.
I think that he's only going to focus more heavily on Ultimate if Jigglypuff gets buffed to high tier. Until then, it's probably not worth it for him when he can just focus on Melee, where Jigglypuff is likely top tier.
 

Gearkeeper-8a

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I don't worry for top players switching to other characters they normally can overcome bad matchup with good fundamentals, now for lower skilled players is another story, in a game with many matchups, characters that are know to be popular in tournaments puts a huge target on you head as a player unlike niche characters, so you need to work harder to overcome niche matchups when everybody else knows what your character can do, this risk works when the character you switch to has very good tools compared to a large portion of cast, like pre-patch diddy or sheik, but when that character has more weakness like smash 4 cloud or rosalina then the character becomes more of a counterpick character and I don't think counterpick characters are good right now maybe in six months or a year when we know what characters are truly consistent, so unless you are a top player better develop a main that is potentially high tier or mid tier then work from there.
 

MG_3989

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Leffen has explicitly said that he's going to focus on Melee more than Ultimate, so I'm not really sure what makes you think Ultimate is his main game.

I think that he's only going to focus more heavily on Ultimate if Jigglypuff gets buffed to high tier. Until then, it's probably not worth it for him when he can just focus on Melee, where Jigglypuff is likely top tier.
I haven’t heard him say that and it seems like he’s grinding Ultimate really hard. It just seemed to me like that

I know he’ll make more money off of Melee but he seems more interested in Ultimate right now and I don’t see him dropping off of that
 
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Rran

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Part of me believes it's not always a competitive game's finest who are in charge of leading the pack to forward the game's meta, but also the *not quite upper echelon* players, the underdogs, and even the occasional unknowns.

Sure, it'd be great if every top Smash player settled for variety, but I can't begrudge someone for choosing the character they feel will give them the best shot at winning (I mean, a decent amount of money, not to mention a player's reputation, is on the line with these tournaments). So rather than going toe-to-toe with a fighting game's best players as a character they already know inside and out, the (comparatively) less renowned players are more resolved to uncover the various intricacies and quirks of "lower"-tiered fighters.

I dunno... with a game as big as Ultimate (both in the size of its roster as well as its player base), I just don't see this game's meta being hindered as much as some people are claiming it will be.

:shyguy:
 
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ZephyrZ

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People singing doom and gloom about Pokemon Trainer now that Leffen's dropped him is kind of worrying me to be honest. I have been secretly worried that he'd be like Smash 4 Shulk as a character who gets hyped up as having "potential" but never really reaches.

I'm not giving up on Pokemon Trainer just yet though. I still believe him to be a character who will continue to grow stronger as his metagame develops as there's a ton room left for optimizing Pokemon Switch. For example, Leffen stated that its hard to take advantage of Zard's kill moves when he struggles to win neutral, but I believe you can work around that by winning Ivy's neutral then switching. It takes a huge burden off Zard if he has a partner win him stage control first.

I also think Charizard might be a candidate for buffs in a future path, but I'm not going to count on that.

That said I do think Leffen is a better fit to play Pichu. His Squirtle was a real sight to behold while his Charizard was really underwhelming. I don't think he's meant for bait and punish heavies.
 

MG_3989

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People singing doom and gloom about Pokemon Trainer now that Leffen's dropped him is kind of worrying me to be honest. I have been secretly worried that he'd be like Smash 4 Shulk as a character who gets hyped up as having "potential" but never really reaches.

I'm not giving up on Pokemon Trainer just yet though. I still believe him to be a character who will continue to grow stronger as his metagame develops as there's a ton room left for optimizing Pokemon Switch. For example, Leffen stated that its hard to take advantage of Zard's kill moves when he struggles to win neutral, but I believe you can work around that by winning Ivy's neutral then switching. It takes a huge burden off Zard if he has a partner win him stage control first.

I also think Charizard might be a candidate for buffs in a future path, but I'm not going to count on that.

That said I do think Leffen is a better fit to play Pichu. His Squirtle was a real sight to behold while his Charizard was really underwhelming. I don't think he's meant for bait and punish heavies.
New players will come out of the woodwork with different characters later on. It just usually doesn’t happen for a year or so because the veterans have a head start
 

Rocketjay8

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Leffen's Pichu will probably be a sight to behold, his Squirtle knowlegde and experience will really come to shine out now. To be honest, Pokemon Trainer isn't even a real good character I think.
The problem with PT is that he requires a ton of work, and right now, he has good pay off, but not as much as other top tiers. Remember when people were claiming that Mega man was bad?
 

Rizen

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PT has a ton of reps though. IMO PT's in a similar position to YL: a technical lower high tier character who gets overshadowed by easier top tiers but will still have dedicated mains.
 

MG_3989

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PT has a ton of reps though. IMO PT's in a similar position to YL: a technical lower high tier character who gets overshadowed by easier top tiers but will still have dedicated mains.
I wanted to hear your thoughts about YL against Wolf. To me it seems like Wolf oppresses him and that may make his usage less but I don’t know enough about YL to say that definitively. What do you think?
 

ReVerbIsSuperb

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I haven’t heard him say that and it seems like he’s grinding Ultimate really hard. It just seemed to me like that

I know he’ll make more money off of Melee but he seems more interested in Ultimate right now and I don’t see him dropping off of that
This was after his decision to drop out of Melee Singles at Genesis 6. Scheduling issues among Top 64 and him questioning if he was rusty at Melee caused him to drop out even though he wished he could have played.

I think he fully intends to play both games in the foreseeable future; he designated Pokemon Trainer (Ivysaur) as just a secondary for annoying MUs (Snake/Olimar) for his new main Pichu alongside using Wolf/Inkling should nerfs come or if Pichu isn't comfortable enough and is still making Ultimate content and involving himself in the scene.

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MG_3989

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This was after his decision to drop out of Melee Singles at Genesis 6. Scheduling issues among Top 64 and him questioning if he was rusty at Melee caused him to drop out even though he wished he could have played.

I think he fully intends to play both games in the foreseeable future; he designated Pokemon Trainer (Ivysaur) as just a secondary for annoying MUs (Snake/Olimar) for his new main Pichu alongside using Wolf/Inkling should nerfs come or if Pichu isn't comfortable enough and is still making Ultimate content and involving himself in the scene.

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Alright, I still think he’s gonna spend a ton of time on Ultimate, he seems to love the game. And a lot of things can change between those times. I could see him dropping DBZ for sure though. I know he’s not stopping Melee but I think it might end up equal depending on what his preferences are then. He didn’t say he was gonna play Melee more than Ultimate and I think he fully intends to juggle. Especially because at this point he doesn’t need to spend as much time on Melee because of how good he already is. I could just be hopeful because I really wanna see Leffen play Ultimate lol
 
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Rizen

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I wanted to hear your thoughts about YL against Wolf. To me it seems like Wolf oppresses him and that may make his usage less but I don’t know enough about YL to say that definitively. What do you think?
IMO :ultyounglink:/:ultwolf: is even. An important point is YL controls neutral slightly better. YL's fire arrows are significantly faster in frame data than Wolf's blaster and both pass through each other. This is big because although Wolf has answers to YL's long range camping, Wolf has to approach. Wolf's blaster deals more damage (boomerang matches it) but YL's arrows put Wolf in the air in hitstun, disadvantage, where blaster keeps both characters in neutral. YL can also angle boomerang and toss bombs four directions. Wolf has reflector but it's one of the slower ones. So YL controls space better.

Wolf has Fair chains and can do things from Dthrows. He can be scary in advantage. YL has his own chains and Wolf doesn't have a good way to break out. YL can do things like Nair>DTilt>SH Nair combo>falling soft Nair>DA chain for 50ish %. Wolf's OoS game is slow so landing N/F/Bair (all have 6f landing lag) to start combos is relatively safe. Wolf does out-button YL up close with his f4 jab and faster Tilts so YL wants to go for midrange conversions rather than strait challenge Wolf.

The big area where Wolf pulls ahead is killing. Wolf can kill 40% earlier than YL. YL's Dsmash sends at low angles and is a great tool to get Wolf offstage. But YL has to deal a lot more damage while Wolf can make a Bair or smash read easily. It's not like Wolf has a hard time dealing his own damage either. Fair chains and blaster adds up. Wrong positioning can lead to Wolf's sideB reads too and don't forget upB.

So YL controls the match better but has to work a lot harder.
 

Shaya

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The smash4 generation of smashers (and older generation definitely not immune to being swept up by it) have been raised to equate pressing buttons to enjoyable / strong characters.

It's really sad.
People only care about meta development if it's a combo set up.
What about using your moves intelligently? What can you achieve with a character if you aren't all about pressing buttons? What the flying **** is neutral game and why does it not care about whether side-b into down-b into neutral b in this really niche situation combos?

Of course people are flocking to Wolf, Pichu and Lucina - they're some of the simplest and strongest button pressers in the game right now.
People want the instant gratification of using 50 aerials in a row into a smash attack and not being exploded for it due to their latent safety/speed.

I'm certain Ultimate has a lot more depth than this, however we're living in a dangerous time where instant-gratification and playing Russian roulette with balance changes in patches is the norm - 'may as well just keep playing the button pressers until a button presser is released I like, or the character I like gets buffed to be a button presser'.

Compare to Ike - who was seen as a button presser, but obviously is not. Chrom too, so on and so forth.

I worry that we might have some sort of weird "Brawl"-esque depression looming - people quitting en masse because they don't get it (how to get over risk/reward of other characters being better =/= bad or not worth playing match up) / don't have the almost-masochistic drive to actually envisage and push their game to a higher-level (but in comparison to what BS we had to deal with in Brawl it's insulting to masochists everywhere to say this).

Perhaps the overall depth of the game leads to a level of complexity people won't be able to get - ever. Thinking about all the mechanics while using a more complicated-than-button-pressing-character is perhaps too much for anyone right now.

Wifi also hurts, it's a mode that people swear by and rely on, yet it mostly promotes button pressing over smart play ...
And unfortunately it's not really avoidable, so few match ups don't get warped by input delay - take Ganondorf for example who we know is one of the most popular used characters in Elite. He is top tier on wifi but might not even be mid offline (Brawl Ike vibes, anyone?), most characters don't have the tools to actually mitigate his hitboxes, range and relatively good start ups in any amount of delay... if you're going to try to deal with that on a regular basis you may as well play Lucina or Wolf - that's the meta.
 
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J0eyboi

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The smash4 generation of smashers (and older generation definitely not immune to being swept up by it) have been raised to equate pressing buttons to enjoyable / strong characters.
I want to say you're wrong, but then I look on Twitter and am all but guaranteed to see "[FOTM character]'s [strong move] is better than whole characters" at least once, and if that doesn't show that people overvalue strong buttons I don't know what can.
 

The_Bookworm

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The smash4 generation of smashers (and older generation definitely not immune to being swept up by it) have been raised to equate pressing buttons to enjoyable / strong characters.

It's really sad.
People only care about meta development if it's a combo set up.
What about using your moves intelligently? What can you achieve with a character if you aren't all about pressing buttons? What the flying **** is neutral game and why does it not care about whether side-b into down-b into neutral b in this really niche situation combos?

Of course people are flocking to Wolf, Pichu and Lucina - they're some of the simplest and strongest button pressers in the game right now.
People want the instant gratification of using 50 aerials in a row into a smash attack and not being exploded for it due to their latent safety/speed.

I'm certain Ultimate has a lot more depth than this, however we're living in a dangerous time where instant-gratification and playing Russian roulette with balance changes in patches is the norm - 'may as well just keep playing the button pressers until a button presser is released I like, or the character I like gets buffed to be a button presser'.

Compare to Ike - who was seen as a button presser, but obviously is not. Chrom too, so on and so forth.

I worry that we might have some sort of weird "Brawl"-esque depression looming - people quitting en masse because they don't get it (how to get over risk/reward of other characters being better =/= bad or not worth playing match up) / don't have the almost-masochistic drive to actually envisage and push their game to a higher-level (but in comparison to what BS we had to deal with in Brawl it's insulting to masochists everywhere to say this).

Perhaps the overall depth of the game leads to a level of complexity people won't be able to get - ever. Thinking about all the mechanics while using a more complicated-than-button-pressing-character is perhaps too much for anyone right now.

Wifi also hurts, it's a mode which people swear by and rely on, yet it mostly promotes button pressing over smart play ...
And unfortunately it's not really avoidable, so few match ups don't get warped by input delay - take Ganondorf for example who we know is one of the most popular used characters in Elite. He is top tier on wifi but might not even be mid offline (Brawl Ike vibes, anyone?), most characters don't have the tools to actually mitigate his hitboxes, range and relatively good start ups in any amount of delay... if you're going to try to deal with that on a regular basis you may as well play Lucina or Wolf - that's the meta.
Couldn't said this better myself (I tried earlier, but not as good as this lol). It is sad that the metagame is at the moment looking like this, but hopefully this will change in the future. I feel like Ultimate's meta will truly begin once we get out of this mindset.

I want to say you're wrong, but then I look on Twitter and am all but guaranteed to see "[FOTM character]'s [strong move] is better than whole characters" at least once, and if that doesn't show that people overvalue strong buttons I don't know what can.
Don't need to look on Twitter to know that people overvalue strong buttons. Everyone's reaction to the Bowser grab and Samus dash attack nerf was already enough to know that lmao. [Edit: Plus the existence of ZeRo's tier lists as well. lol]
 

MG_3989

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IMO :ultyounglink:/:ultwolf: is even. An important point is YL controls neutral slightly better. YL's fire arrows are significantly faster in frame data than Wolf's blaster and both pass through each other. This is big because although Wolf has answers to YL's long range camping, Wolf has to approach. Wolf's blaster deals more damage (boomerang matches it) but YL's arrows put Wolf in the air in hitstun, disadvantage, where blaster keeps both characters in neutral. YL can also angle boomerang and toss bombs four directions. Wolf has reflector but it's one of the slower ones. So YL controls space better.

Wolf has Fair chains and can do things from Dthrows. He can be scary in advantage. YL has his own chains and Wolf doesn't have a good way to break out. YL can do things like Nair>DTilt>SH Nair combo>falling soft Nair>DA chain for 50ish %. Wolf's OoS game is slow so landing N/F/Bair (all have 6f landing lag) to start combos is relatively safe. Wolf does out-button YL up close with his f4 jab and faster Tilts so YL wants to go for midrange conversions rather than strait challenge Wolf.

The big area where Wolf pulls ahead is killing. Wolf can kill 40% earlier than YL. YL's Dsmash sends at low angles and is a great tool to get Wolf offstage. But YL has to deal a lot more damage while Wolf can make a Bair or smash read easily. It's not like Wolf has a hard time dealing his own damage either. Fair chains and blaster adds up. Wrong positioning can lead to Wolf's sideB reads too and don't forget upB.

So YL controls the match better but has to work a lot harder.
Ok that makes sense, thanks for the analysis! It seemed like a really bad matchup for YL in elite smash because the YL’s I played weren’t playing around reflector and taking a ton of damage and losing neutral because of it. I also only took that with a grain of salt though because elite smash hardly represents top level play

This is why I wanted to ask you about and everything you said makes sense and I have a much better idea of the matchup now. Thanks for the input!
 

Rehnquist

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There has been something I have been wondering about :ultmetaknight:. Does he still have the niche of being the "floaty killer" that he had in Smash 4. Maybe I have noot seen enough footage of the MU's because i rarely see MK users go for the same up-air ladderd to up-B kill-confirms on them. Was it nerfed or just harder to do now? I know MKLeo had an MK he would occasionally bring out in Smash 4 vs Rosalina's and Peaches, yet he did not use him vs Samsora at G6 hmmm
Up air chains are harder to pull off than in 4 (sometimes only one or two Uair chains are true) and the ladder goes much further horizontally now (which allows nado finishers) but can make SL a heavy commitment, and SL isn't as strong as what it used to be.

MKLeo pretty much dropped all meta knight in the last year of 4. MKLeo values simple but consistent characters so he can focus his attention on other aspects of the game, the guy is a machine.
 

Emblem Lord

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When has Smash NOT been about throwing out super abusive high priority buttons that yield huge reward for minor risk?
 

Browny

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I know he’ll make more money off of Melee
He absolutely will not.

Fun fact: Leffen made more money grinding Ultimate on twitch in one single month, than he did for winning melee Evo 2018. 2.5x as much in fact.

Also what are people smoking where they think Pichu is hard lmao. His combos are incredibly easy. I played him for pretty much first time ever yesterday and managed to get the 'thunder loops' combo down... and I was using the joycons in handheld mode -_- dtilt utilt utilt uair far ez 35% or so. fair/bair oos shield hits just about everyone and is ridiculously powerful. Jump around and press b in neutral without aiming then ftilt near the edge.

He has to be one of the easiest characters in the game. Just because hes light, so what. Lots of people would argue Jigglypuff is one of the easiest characters in melee, yet shes almost as light. Weight doesn't matter. His neutral is easy. Recovery is free. edgeguating top tier. aerials are safe on shield. Kill moves simple to hit.

Don't delude yourselves. Pichu is very basic and very easy. Hurting himself with his attacks simply makes him get KO'd sooner, thats it. It has exactly 0 bearing on his difficulty to play, only serving to keep him balanced.
 
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Rizen

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Ok that makes sense, thanks for the analysis! It seemed like a really bad matchup for YL in elite smash because the YL’s I played weren’t playing around reflector and taking a ton of damage and losing neutral because of it. I also only took that with a grain of salt though because elite smash hardly represents top level play

This is why I wanted to ask you about and everything you said makes sense and I have a much better idea of the matchup now. Thanks for the input!
You could like my post ya cheep *******. (JK) I've played 2 live Wolfs one I beat 2-0 and the other who got third in the tournament beat me 2-1. It feels pretty even.
 

Shaya

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When has Smash NOT been about throwing out super abusive high priority buttons that yield huge reward for minor risk?
Early metagame? Never. It defining most levels of play? Always.
The point being made was it's the only thing players care about.

I miss the days where what we talked about for a character was how to use their moves more effectively, situations where moves could be used, the options something can cover or be used to force things, alternative mix ups, etc etc
You know me, we both could spend hours talking about how to use Marth's forward air in Brawl; ways to be more consistent with the spacing, etc etc
People like us care about neutral pokes like down tilt, yet most Smash4ers consider[ed] it a ****-tier move not worth using.

Only reason I've seen people give a damn about Marth/Lucina down tilt in this game is because if they DI in it sets up a tech chase.
WELL WHAT ABOUT 5000x MORE INFORMATION FOR THE MOVE UNRELATED TO ONE SINGULAR REWARD SITUATION? They don't care.
 
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Rehnquist

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Early metagame? Never. It defining most levels of play? Always.
The point being made was it's the only thing players care about.

I miss the days where what we talked about for a character was how to use their moves more effectively, situations where moves could be used, the options something can cover or be used to force things, alternative mix ups, etc etc
Still exists, usually on the character boards or by character loyalists as the amount of detail and mental space to find that kind of info takes a lot of time. Most people just want the most relevant info possible to win (match ups and % alone take a lot of space).

Again most of the scientists are the character loyalists who oogle at any new expansion into that sole character which occupies their focus, most of the soldiers just want an effective gun and have to spend their mental energy focusing on their opponents and how the meta is evolving, character loyalists don't have to worry about the meta so much, which frees them up a bit.
 
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MG_3989

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You could like my post ya cheep *******. (JK) I've played 2 live Wolfs one I beat 2-0 and the other who got third in the tournament beat me 2-1. It feels pretty even.
You definitely deserved the like for that one. I was just out and had to get off real quick so I looked like I wasn’t obsessed with Smash on a date lmfao
 

Nobie

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Early metagame? Never. It defining most levels of play? Always.
The point being made was it's the only thing players care about.

I miss the days where what we talked about for a character was how to use their moves more effectively, situations where moves could be used, the options something can cover or be used to force things, alternative mix ups, etc etc
You know me, we both could spend hours talking about how to use Marth's forward air in Brawl; ways to be more consistent with the spacing, etc etc
People like us care about neutral pokes like down tilt, yet most Smash4ers consider[ed] it a ****-tier move not worth using.

Only reason I've seen people give a damn about Marth/Lucina down tilt in this game is because if they DI in it sets up a tech chase.
WELL WHAT ABOUT 5000x MORE INFORMATION FOR THE MOVE UNRELATED TO ONE SINGULAR REWARD SITUATION? They don't care.
I worry about this in regards to Mewtwo, because most of the discussion about the character tends to be "does this combo into this? Can this be comboed into?" People will lament the loss of Nair+footstool+disable while also downplaying Disable having invincibility on frames 10 through 16 (move starts hitting on frame 16). No, it's not frame-1 invincible, but hot dang! Think about all the things you can challenge with it! You could potentially call out a fast smash or slow d-tilt at close range and get a MASSIVE punish off of it. But no, just keep complaining that d-tilt isn't as good anymore...
 
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MG_3989

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The smash4 generation of smashers (and older generation definitely not immune to being swept up by it) have been raised to equate pressing buttons to enjoyable / strong characters.

It's really sad.
People only care about meta development if it's a combo set up.
What about using your moves intelligently? What can you achieve with a character if you aren't all about pressing buttons? What the flying **** is neutral game and why does it not care about whether side-b into down-b into neutral b in this really niche situation combos?

Of course people are flocking to Wolf, Pichu and Lucina - they're some of the simplest and strongest button pressers in the game right now.
People want the instant gratification of using 50 aerials in a row into a smash attack and not being exploded for it due to their latent safety/speed.

I'm certain Ultimate has a lot more depth than this, however we're living in a dangerous time where instant-gratification and playing Russian roulette with balance changes in patches is the norm - 'may as well just keep playing the button pressers until a button presser is released I like, or the character I like gets buffed to be a button presser'.

Compare to Ike - who was seen as a button presser, but obviously is not. Chrom too, so on and so forth.

I worry that we might have some sort of weird "Brawl"-esque depression looming - people quitting en masse because they don't get it (how to get over risk/reward of other characters being better =/= bad or not worth playing match up) / don't have the almost-masochistic drive to actually envisage and push their game to a higher-level (but in comparison to what BS we had to deal with in Brawl it's insulting to masochists everywhere to say this).

Perhaps the overall depth of the game leads to a level of complexity people won't be able to get - ever. Thinking about all the mechanics while using a more complicated-than-button-pressing-character is perhaps too much for anyone right now.

Wifi also hurts, it's a mode that people swear by and rely on, yet it mostly promotes button pressing over smart play ...
And unfortunately it's not really avoidable, so few match ups don't get warped by input delay - take Ganondorf for example who we know is one of the most popular used characters in Elite. He is top tier on wifi but might not even be mid offline (Brawl Ike vibes, anyone?), most characters don't have the tools to actually mitigate his hitboxes, range and relatively good start ups in any amount of delay... if you're going to try to deal with that on a regular basis you may as well play Lucina or Wolf - that's the meta.
I’m absolutely sure smart play and making good reads will always win over buttons. I have a friend who barely knows any advanced techniques and he doesn’t know any combos. He can short hop and RAR(he just figured it out and doesn’t know what it’s called even ), but he doesn’t know one bread and butter combo that he hasn’t figured out himself in game nor has he ever looked at a guide or a instructional video

He’s one of the best players I know personally. His spacing, reads, punishes, and overall game sense is insane and basically natural. He knows how to watch the other player and exploit every single one of their habits. He understands neutral, advantage, and disadvantage deeply and be rarely ever overextends but alwasys takes every ounce of extra punish he can. He regularly wins locals over players that know every button and combo there is with characters like DK, Jigglypuff, Captin Falcon, and Duck Hunt and pulls all of them out in tournament. He reads them like a book. If he was to take the time to learn combos and advanced techniques I have no doubt he could go very very far in Smash but he has no desire to. He wins on game sense, smart play, and inately understanding the game. I know players like this are rare but they do exist and they prove that game sense and smart play does win over buttons and combos

Getting back to my point, if a player like that can be so successful (even at a local level, there are tons of good players in my area) then combos and buttons will never be as important as smart play and game sense. That’s just one example but I’m sure there are a lot of top players who started off just like that
 
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Nysyr

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There are a worrying amount of people switching mains to Lucina, wolf and pichu right now.

Not worrying because of the characters themselves, worrying about how so many people are giving up trying to push their character any further and are nothing but slaves to the 'flavour of the month' meta. Its only 2 months in and so many characters are losing their best reps. Plenty of low and mid tier characters in smash 4 had the best players stick with them from the beginning, all the way to its end. This is just sad watching how many people are giving up already.
Unless theres a big patch shake-up that proves nintendo wants to actually guide the meta, I think most have learned from smash 4 that picking up the character that seems to win the hardest is the easiest way forward when there are so many character matchups. I may be way off base here, but the “pick a high tier” message truly has been pushed more in ultimates scene more than any other it feels like.

Characters losing their main reps on the big stage is kind of a death sentence for the characters meta and really demotivates people from playing a character with no role model.
 

AlMoStLeGeNdArY

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Unless theres a big patch shake-up that proves nintendo wants to actually guide the meta, I think most have learned from smash 4 that picking up the character that seems to win the hardest is the easiest way forward when there are so many character matchups. I may be way off base here, but the “pick a high tier” message truly has been pushed more in ultimates scene more than any other it feels like.

Characters losing their main reps on the big stage is kind of a death sentence for the characters meta and really demotivates people from playing a character with no role model.
I would hope that people don't get demotivated to play a character because there isn't a top player playing them. I would hope people would be more willing to forge their own path with a character that they like and enjoy playing.
 

MG_3989

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Imagine my disgust in the shoto discord, when people cry about basic input motions that have existed longer than half of the shoto player base for this game and then say they are going to switch to Wolf because *gasp* Ryu and Ken "require too much thought".

No, this is not satire.

People actually say this ****.

Kill me.
Wait people actually think a half circle and a dragon punch are hard inputs? I mean I did play a lot of MvC but if somebody can’t dragon punch I have no idea how they’re gonna do half the BnB combos in Smash with not just Ken and Ryu but a ton of characters. Dragon punch is far easier to pull off then a lot of tech and combos in this game. I don’t get it
 

ZephyrZ

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Wait people actually think a half circle and a dragon punch are hard inputs? I mean I did play a lot of MvC but if somebody can’t dragon punch I have no idea how they’re gonna do half the BnB combos in Smash with not just Ken and Ryu but a ton of characters. Dragon punch is far easier to pull off then a lot of tech and combos in this game. I don’t get it
Most character combos just take basic movement skills. If you have good fundamentals you can pick up a lot of basic BnB combos quite easily. It didn't take me a day to start stringing aerials together with Squirtle.

I can't consistently true Shoryuken though. I can preform the input in training mode but I wouldn't be comfortable doing so in a serious match. The motion feels weird. It doesn't help that I play the Pro Controller so I don't have ridges, although I'm not sure how much that'd actually help me. But to be fair I've also never seriously dedicated myself to playing Ryu or Ken, nor any traditional fighting game.
 

MG_3989

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Most character combos just take basic movement skills. If you have good fundamentals you can pick up a lot of basic BnB combos quite easily. It didn't take me a day to start stringing aerials together with Squirtle.

I can't consistently true Shoryuken though. I can preform the input in training mode but I wouldn't be comfortable doing so in a serious match. The motion feels weird. It doesn't help that I play the Pro Controller so I don't have ridges, although I'm not sure how much that'd actually help me. But to be fair I've also never seriously dedicated myself to playing Ryu or Ken, nor any traditional fighting game.
Yeah that makes sense. It’s all muscle memory just like all your movement in Smash. I mean don’t get me wrong I’m not saying most BnB’s are difficult because they aren’t. They’re usually easy once you’re used to the game but with some there’s a lot of tech that goes into them especially when you have to sh then shff and hit a certain frame then throw out a special and then throw out another shff or something, etc...Idk I just made that up off the top of my head. Now that type of stuff is also ingrained in my muscle memory from smash so it’s not too hard to do either but it takes more precise timing, movement, and spacing and it’s longer so you have a lot more time to drop inputs

I’m not saying something like that is super difficult once you know fundamentals because it really isn’t but I think it takes more tech than a dragon punch. Don’t me wrong Dragon Punch is a weird motion and I have no idea why Capcom decided to use it but it’s not difficult at all once you get it down and it would take you an hour or two at most. I played a ton of UMvC3 so I guess it’s just so ingrained in me now

Also most fightsticks have a certain gate (idk really know exactly how many ridges it is but it isn’t 8 like the GC controller) but I learned on a PS3 controller with no ridges. The ridges really aren’t all that important. All I’m saying is if you’re gonna be a Ryu or Ken main and you think the Dragon Punch input is difficult after an hour or two you should probably main another character
 
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AlMoStLeGeNdArY

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Yeah that makes sense. It’s all muscle memory just like all your movement in Smash. I mean don’t get me wrong I’m not saying most BnB’s are difficult because they aren’t. They’re usually easy once you’re used to the game but with some there’s a lot of tech that goes into them especially when you have to sh then shff and hit a certain frame then throw out a special and then throw out another shff or something, etc...Idk I just made that up off the top of my head. Now that type of stuff is also ingrained in my muscle memory from smash so it’s not too hard to do either but it takes more precise timing, movement, and spacing and it’s longer so you have a lot more time to drop inputs

I’m not saying something like that is super difficult once you know fundamentals because it really isn’t but I think it takes more tech than a dragon punch. Don’t me wrong Dragon Punch is a weird motion and I have no idea why Capcom decided to use it but it’s not difficult at all once you get it down and it would take you an hour or two at most. I played a ton of UMvC3 so I guess it’s just so ingrained in me now

Also most fightsticks have a certain gate (idk really know exactly how many ridges it is but it isn’t 8 like the GC controller) but I learned on a PS3 controller with no ridges. The ridges really aren’t all that important. All I’m saying is if you’re gonna be a Ryu or Ken main and you think the Dragon Punch input is difficult after an hour or two you should probably main another character
The motion is because they kinda had to. QCF is hadoken QCB is tatsu. So your only optjons are HCF or HCB and I don't think they wanted you to be able to block and still have access to SRK. So it's a design issue for why they came up with it.

Also it's funny hearing people crying about execution when I learned lightning loops on my ps vita.
 
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zeldasmash

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The motion is because they kinda had to. QCF is hadoken QCB is tatsu. So your only optjons are HCF or HCB and I don't think they wanted you to be able to block and still have access to SRK. So it's a design issue for why they came up with it.

Also it's funny hearing people crying about execution when I learned lightning loops on my ps vita.
Lightning Loops were really easy to learn. I remember early in it's lifespan saying they were tricky to learn but I don't even use Zero and I know how to do it near casually. I'd rather stick with my Wesker/Iron Man/Akuma team, though. XD
 

MG_3989

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Lightning Loops were really easy to learn. I remember early in it's lifespan saying they were tricky to learn but I don't even use Zero and I know how to do it near casually. I'd rather stick with my Wesker/Iron Man/Akuma team, though. XD
I had the same team except I used Zero instead of Wesker lol

Also I want UMvC3 Zero in Smash
 
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bc1910

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I miss the days where what we talked about for a character was how to use their moves more effectively, situations where moves could be used, the options something can cover or be used to force things, alternative mix ups, etc etc
You know me, we both could spend hours talking about how to use Marth's forward air in Brawl; ways to be more consistent with the spacing, etc etc
People like us care about neutral pokes like down tilt, yet most Smash4ers consider[ed] it a ****-tier move not worth using.

Only reason I've seen people give a damn about Marth/Lucina down tilt in this game is because if they DI in it sets up a tech chase.
WELL WHAT ABOUT 5000x MORE INFORMATION FOR THE MOVE UNRELATED TO ONE SINGULAR REWARD SITUATION? They don't care.
People only care about meta development if it's a combo set up.
What about using your moves intelligently? What can you achieve with a character if you aren't all about pressing buttons? What the flying **** is neutral game and why does it not care about whether side-b into down-b into neutral b in this really niche situation combos.
I agree with your analysis overall but these two points really resonate with me.

Greninja was dropped like a hot potato after Usmash and shurikens got their frame data gutted. It’s arguable the extent to which these moves were “buttons” but they certainly allowed Greninja oppressive yet simple neutral and advantage states. In some middling patch of Smash 4, Greninja’s Ftilt got buffed with about 9 frames shaved off its ending lag. I was so excited about this; Greninja finally had a safe(ish) poke to throw out in neutral! It became a much better option in CQC and something he could use to exert at least some semblance of shield pressure.

Sadly, few others shared my enthusiasm; they were too busy labbing sick footstool camboez and 0-deaths that only worked on FD on specific characters from a specific ledge at a specific time of day on Thursdays.

I think the Greninja meta was held back massively by this attitude. I’ll say with some confidence that the only practical footstool combos we had were from Nair at ~0% and occasionally Dair stuff at high percent (a lot of characters could DI that stuff and Dair is incredibly unsafe). Everything else was just combo video/montage stuff that wasn’t gonna push Greninja toward reaching the “potential” he was supposed to have.

We got our **** together in the last year or so of Smash 4’s life when players like Venia actually grinded out Greninja’s neutral and pressure options whilst focusing on the practical combos. This has continued into Ultimate thankfully; we have a great group of Greninja mains who are focussed on practical punishes as well as pushing his neutral and labbing his MUs. I like combos as much as the next guy and I prefer combo heavy characters, but practical setups and kill confirms that might actually work in a real match? Two helpings with gravy please. Having a group of players with a good attitude behind a low-key incredibly strong but perhaps not so “buttony” character should be a recipe for success in the long term, at least I hope so.

That said, Greninja does have significantly better buttons in Ultimate than he ever did in S4. Alongside Ftilt and an even safer Dtilt, his aerials are safe on shield if spaced correctly (a clause that I’m glad still exists for some characters’ aerials... looking at you, Pichu) and dash attack is easily the best in the game, offering incredible reward for its burst range and safety. Still, dash attack can be punished and I think the precision required with Greninja’s moves outside dash attack is enough to keep him cerebral.
 

LightLV

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Like, I don’t think he’s quite as good as Fox or Wolf. But the only reason he isn’t snatched up by more people is that he is hard to play online. That’s it. Same as Greninja (except Greninja is top tier, don’t @ me).

Falco’s niche is to be able to deal with basically any character and be able to style on them.
Exactly, that's why i said his biggest weakness is simply being too honest. Honest characters aren't netplay champions. That's his strength and his weakness.

"Look, bottom line: parrying a Lucina Fair, throwing out Utilt, going into a 40% combo that throws her off stage, throwing out a laser to steal her jump, and then run off Dair spiking her to death is... life affirming."

First you have to get the parry. (risky) Then you have to land the combo. (pretty easy but probably requires a specific damage range) Then you have get the laser gimp (Falco knowledge can stop this from happening). Meanwhile Lucina just has to Fsmash you at any point past 70% and touch you with any of her disjointed normals off the stage to win.

This **** is active for 5 frames. A frame 10 spike that is active for 5 frames. It's good, but it's on Falco, a character who doesn't move super fast on the ground or in the air. You put this Dair on someone like Bowser, DK, Diddy, Fox, Jigglypuff, the Marthlings, Palutena, Ridley, Sheik, Sonic, Wii Fit Trainer, or Wolf and people would be crying all day about it. The hitbox might not be good compared to other Dair spikes or Ivysaur's freak of nature Dair and it's not as strong as some other spikes, but it's fast, it's active for 5 frames, and if you can jump high enough like Falco, you can probably followup from it. In other words, Greninja, Sheik, and ZSS would probably be able to get some setups from landing a Falco Dair. Granted, Greninja's Dair already works with his moves.
Yes, but it isn't on any of those characters, it's on Falco. Not to mention the hitbox is pretty narrow.

Mario will box your ass to death and then throw out a fair while ON THE STAGE and get the spike 5x easier than any Falco player could. Yoshi can do the same thing, so can K Rool.

His spike isn't particularly noteworthy IMO. His physics and its hitbox make it average at best and that's even with its impressive frame data IMO. Falco's best edgeguarding tools are Nair and Fair simply because they're infinitely easier to use.


The smash4 generation of smashers (and older generation definitely not immune to being swept up by it) have been raised to equate pressing buttons to enjoyable / strong characters.

It's really sad.
People only care about meta development if it's a combo set up.
What about using your moves intelligently? What can you achieve with a character if you aren't all about pressing buttons? What the flying **** is neutral game and why does it not care about whether side-b into down-b into neutral b in this really niche situation combos?
This isn't smash and it isn't even a generational thing, this is every fighting game on earth. Least path of resistance is always going to be the most traveled path.

But most importantly...telling yourself that you aren't going to press buttons does not necessarily make you a better player, or vice versa. Getting better comes from knowing WHEN, both to do it and to not do it.

All the careful neutral analysis on earth isn't going to stop a Chrom from getting in your sh*t. All the theorycrafting on earth isn't going to make a character with bad tools good.

I'm certain Ultimate has a lot more depth than this, however we're living in a dangerous time where instant-gratification and playing Russian roulette with balance changes in patches is the norm - 'may as well just keep playing the button pressers until a button presser is released I like, or the character I like gets buffed to be a button presser'.

Compare to Ike - who was seen as a button presser, but obviously is not. Chrom too, so on and so forth.

Perhaps the overall depth of the game leads to a level of complexity people won't be able to get - ever. Thinking about all the mechanics while using a more complicated-than-button-pressing-character is perhaps too much for anyone right now.
Naaaaaaaah.

What's happening is that you're putting more value into a concept (sticking with a character, learning to make them work) than it might actually be worth putting value into. Humans are pretty good at finding patterns that work.


Here's what people don't necessarily understand about tiers, "flavor of the month", being a character loyalist, and flowing with the meta : Everyone doesn't play fighting games for the same reasons.


People who stick to characters and exhaustively lab them are people who probably care more about proving a point and being unique than actually winning. People who flock to characters with proven winning tactics are probably players who get most of their enjoyment from actually winning matches. Most people are probably between those two on some sliding scale.

If you were previously an Ike player, but now are deterred from picking him now that he's a confirmed strong pick in the current meta...then your main motivation for playing is NOT winning matches. If you're a Kirby player and struggle consistently with matchups that are slanted against you, and you still refuse to even pick up a secondary main...your main motivation for playing is NOT winning matches.

Besides, I think there's no greater insight into making low/mid tier characters viable than playing top-tier and FotM characters, just to get a feel for why they shift the meta, and what their own weaknesses are.


bottom line....there's nothing stopping a character that HAS good buttons from playing like a character that doesn't, and good players understand this, which is probably why they all flock to higher-tier characters at some point. The burden of keeping the roster diverse is on the developers, not the players.


But regardless, it's still way too early to start glooming over the current meta direction. People are getting bopped by different stuff every month it seems.
 
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AlMoStLeGeNdArY

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Lightning Loops were really easy to learn. I remember early in it's lifespan saying they were tricky to learn but I don't even use Zero and I know how to do it near casually. I'd rather stick with my Wesker/Iron Man/Akuma team, though. XD
Yeah it was just a TK DP motion not very difficult but at the beginning of the game's life span it was considered really hard. My execution in that game eventually got pretty sick though. Also for whatever reason it took me a dumb amount of time to learn palm loops. I dont know why it took me so long but yeah. I believe we can always overcome execution barriers along as we put in the wrong for it. People shouldn't be discouraged because they can't do something after 15 minutes of training.
 
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