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Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

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  • Total voters
    584

earthboundspacefree

Smash Cadet
Joined
May 27, 2018
Messages
51
Exactly, that's why i said his biggest weakness is simply being too honest. Honest characters aren't netplay champions. That's his strength and his weakness.

"Look, bottom line: parrying a Lucina Fair, throwing out Utilt, going into a 40% combo that throws her off stage, throwing out a laser to steal her jump, and then run off Dair spiking her to death is... life affirming."

First you have to get the parry. (risky) Then you have to land the combo. (pretty easy but probably requires a specific damage range) Then you have get the laser gimp (Falco knowledge can stop this from happening). Meanwhile Lucina just has to Fsmash you at any point past 70% and touch you with any of her disjointed normals off the stage to win.



Yes, but it isn't on any of those characters, it's on Falco. Not to mention the hitbox is pretty narrow.

Mario will box your *** to death and then throw out a fair while ON THE STAGE and get the spike 5x easier than any Falco player could. Yoshi can do the same thing, so can K Rool.

His spike isn't particularly noteworthy IMO. His physics and its hitbox make it average at best and that's even with its impressive frame data IMO. Falco's best edgeguarding tools are Nair and Fair simply because they're infinitely easier to use.




This isn't smash and it isn't even a generational thing, this is every fighting game on earth. Least path of resistance is always going to be the most traveled path.

But most importantly...telling yourself that you aren't going to press buttons does not necessarily make you a better player, or vice versa. Getting better comes from knowing WHEN, both to do it and to not do it.

All the careful neutral analysis on earth isn't going to stop a Chrom from getting in your sh*t. All the theorycrafting on earth isn't going to make a character with bad tools good.



Naaaaaaaah.

What's happening is that you're putting more value into a concept (sticking with a character, learning to make them work) than it might actually be worth putting value into. Humans are pretty good at finding patterns that work.


Here's what people don't necessarily understand about tiers, "flavor of the month", being a character loyalist, and flowing with the meta : Everyone doesn't play fighting games for the same reasons.


People who stick to characters and exhaustively lab them are people who probably care more about proving a point and being unique than actually winning. People who flock to characters with proven winning tactics are probably players who get most of their enjoyment from actually winning matches. Most people are probably between those two on some sliding scale.

If you were previously an Ike player, but now are deterred from picking him now that he's a confirmed strong pick in the current meta...then your main motivation for playing is NOT winning matches. If you're a Kirby player and struggle consistently with matchups that are slanted against you, and you still refuse to even pick up a secondary main...your main motivation for playing is NOT winning matches.

Besides, I think there's no greater insight into making low/mid tier characters viable than playing top-tier and FotM characters, just to get a feel for why they shift the meta, and what their own weaknesses are.


bottom line....there's nothing stopping a character that HAS good buttons from playing like a character that doesn't, and good players understand this, which is probably why they all flock to higher-tier characters at some point. The burden of keeping the roster diverse is on the developers, not the players.


But regardless, it's still way too early to start glooming over the current meta direction. People are getting bopped by different stuff every month it seems.
On top of this, the claim of lack of diversity is kinda unfounded to begin with, since there were 33ish characters represented in top64 of g6. Non top level players do the optimizing, and top players are good enough to know what to use of it that works, and stick with the simplest things that make their character work (in part why I think you don’t see crazy optimized footstool combos - more optimized doesn’t equate to most practically useful). Top players are much more pragmatic with their characters and tech than the rest of us
 

LightLV

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 17, 2014
Messages
748
On top of this, the claim of lack of diversity is kinda unfounded to begin with, since there were 33ish characters represented in top64 of g6. Non top level players do the optimizing, and top players are good enough to know what to use of it that works, and stick with the simplest things that make their character work (in part why I think you don’t see crazy optimized footstool combos - more optimized doesn’t equate to most practically useful). Top players are much more pragmatic with their characters and tech than the rest of us
Yeah, this game is doing quite well on diversity IMO, a testament to its decent mechanic changes. I feel like the meta might cull alot of characters based on criteria (like aerial movement speed) but in general, the balance is doing okay.

And (imo) i feel like this game is going to evolve alot as matchups become more wellknown and people start using the new mechanics to their advantage more. Parrying and abusing the new defense mechanics is something that I think is going to get bigger.

Bolded is very important. This is the reason I didn't think Perfect Pivot was ever going to be a thing (and it never really became one), it wasn't very practical in the slightest.
 
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zeldasmash

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 26, 2010
Messages
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Puerto Rico
I had the same team except I used Zero instead of Wesker lol

Also I want UMvC3 Zero in Smash
Just.....get Nintendo to not make him busted. There's not been a single crossover fighting game to my knowledge where Zero ain't top tier. He got nerfed in MvCI but the guy is still a massive threat (btw, I enjoy MvCI a lot for it's gameplay despite it clearly needing improvement).
 

LightLV

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 17, 2014
Messages
748
Just.....get Nintendo to not make him busted. There's not been a single crossover fighting game to my knowledge where Zero ain't top tier. He got nerfed in MvCI but the guy is still a massive threat (btw, I enjoy MvCI a lot for it's gameplay despite it clearly needing improvement).
that rage when you realize Zero was an infinitely better zoner in MvCI than X.....

....man that game was trash
 

ARISTOS

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 1, 2016
Messages
741
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The Empire
I think the Greninja meta was held back massively by this attitude. I’ll say with some confidence that the only practical footstool combos we had were from Nair at ~0% and occasionally Dair stuff at high percent (a lot of characters could DI that stuff and Dair is incredibly unsafe). Everything else was just combo video/montage stuff that wasn’t gonna push Greninja toward reaching the “potential” he was supposed to have.

We got our **** together in the last year or so of Smash 4’s life when players like Venia actually grinded out Greninja’s neutral and pressure options whilst focusing on the practical combos. This has continued into Ultimate thankfully; we have a great group of Greninja mains who are focussed on practical punishes as well as pushing his neutral and labbing his MUs. I like combos as much as the next guy and I prefer combo heavy characters, but practical setups and kill confirms that might actually work in a real match? Two helpings with gravy please. Having a group of players with a good attitude behind a low-key incredibly strong but perhaps not so “buttony” character should be a recipe for success in the long term, at least I hope so.
I feel Smash 4 Peach got derailed in the same way-I remember there being a big emphasis on situational combos/turnips setups (which since turnips were mediocre in 4, were only ever OK). I think we got lucky in having a player like Samsora who eschewed all of that in favor of simply being strong in neutral and focusing on Peach's movement, and that has helped in the transition to Ultimate where Peach's buttons are all fantastic (but not enough to win without a solid foundation hehe)

If you were previously an Ike player, but now are deterred from picking him now that he's a confirmed strong pick in the current meta...then your main motivation for playing is NOT winning matches.
Tbf I feel Ike is a much less interesting character in Ultimate than what I messed around with in Brawl/4- they took a much more rounded (but weak) character and focused his power on nair while neutering the other aspects of his kit. That's the part I feel people can sometimes dislike about Smash, strong buttons kind of overrunning other aspects of play. I actually don't think it's as bad in Ultimate as it was in Smash 4 though
 

MG_3989

Smash Lord
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that rage when you realize Zero was an infinitely better zoner in MvCI than X.....

....man that game was trash
Don’t even get me started. It’s like they purposely usely killed MvC as a franchise and it was the last thing I expected after how damn good UMvC3 was. But Capcom is Capcom and they only thing they’re consistent at is inconsistency and stealing all your money

Yeah I think Nintendo might make Zero broken. They did a good job with Megaman but Zero is way different. Just the way he plays it’s hard not to. I’d still love to see him in the game tho
 
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LightLV

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 17, 2014
Messages
748
Tbf I feel Ike is a much less interesting character in Ultimate than what I messed around with in Brawl/4- they took a much more rounded (but weak) character and focused his power on nair while neutering the other aspects of his kit. That's the part I feel people can sometimes dislike about Smash, strong buttons kind of overrunning other aspects of play. I actually don't think it's as bad in Ultimate as it was in Smash 4 though
What happened is that he went from weak to strong. You can still play him the same way he was played in Smash 4, it's just that you don't have to struggle as much. That's what i mean when i say people don't all necessarily play the same game for the same reasons. Because I used to be the same way...and kind of am to a lesser degree today. But the thing that i've realized is...when you play good characters in fighting games, it only feels like you're playing a "less interesting" character when you're running through people who are struggling more than you, or have less options than you.


But once you start running into people who "strong buttons" and "better frame data" doesn't really work on anymore (because they're USED to fighting "top tier" players), THATS when your top-tier pick becomes interesting, because now your struggle involves you learning how to exploit weaknesses in objectively strong characters, WITH strong characters.

But Low/Mid tier characters? Their struggle is simply in finding ways to overcome the challenges of running into characters with better options than them. It's like people are chasing after the same struggle, but just at different levels. But this is why I say it's good for all character loyalists and low-tier warriors to pick up a top-tier just so you can see exactly what it is they're lacking.

I think Smash 4 was the best example of this gap, simply because the mechanics were so shallow that "better" characters were just flat-out playing a different game with different rules.
 

zeldasmash

Smash Lord
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Don’t even get me started. It’s like they purposely usely killed MvC as a franchise and it was the last thing I expected after how damn good UMvC3 was. But Capcom is Capcom and they only thing they’re consistent at is inconsistency and stealing all your money

Yeah I think Nintendo might make Zero broken. They did a good job with Megaman but Zero is way different. Just the way he plays it’s hard not to. I’d still love to see him in the game tho
Honestly Capcom might be in a bit of a redemption arc since 2017. Resident Evil hasn't been this consistently good since the mid 2000's, Mega Man is making a comeback with Mega Man 11 being a good game and a commercial success alongside the Mega Man X Legacy Collection which could lead to another X game, Street Fighter V got substantially better with the Arcade Edition (still has flaws but much better then Vanilla), Okami HD was a success, Monster Hunter World is their most successful game probably ever and was up for many GOTY nominations last year and with how the demos have been and the previews of the game, Devil May Cry 5 is looking like another success.

If only MvC could get that treatment, especially since Marvel has Spider-Man under their belt. It can be done.

Anyways, we kinda digressed from the topic. XD
 
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LightLV

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 17, 2014
Messages
748
Don’t even get me started. It’s like they purposely usely killed MvC as a franchise and it was the last thing I expected after how damn good UMvC3 was. But Capcom is Capcom and they only thing they’re consistent at is inconsistency and stealing all your money

Yeah I think Nintendo might make Zero broken. They did a good job with Megaman but Zero is way different. Just the way he plays it’s hard not to. I’d still love to see him in the game tho
Yeah MvCI was a really odd entry...like Mvc3 literally looks better than it and it came out years ago.

I think Capcom is going through a really rough patch with their fighting games, because all their other franchises are KILLING it right now. I think the Resident Evil 2 / DMC5 engine is one of the most consistenetly good looking engines this generation so far.
 

Nidtendofreak

Smash Hero
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We're going way off topic but: everything I've heard about MvC:I is that mechanically its the best in the series. Just the roster, graphics style, music, and anything else that's appealing outside of mechanics sucks.

So basically UMvC3 with MvC:I's mechanics would be the best fighter of all time.
 

MG_3989

Smash Lord
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We're going way off topic but: everything I've heard about MvC:I is that mechanically its the best in the series. Just the roster, graphics style, music, and anything else that's appealing outside of mechanics sucks.

So basically UMvC3 with MvC:I's mechanics would be the best fighter of all time.
I played a little of it and it wasn’t a bad fighting game technically but it just wasn’t nearly as fun as UMvC3. UMvC2 and 3 had a magic and identity about them that made them so appealing and it’s completely missing in MvC:I. Plus they cut down the roster so bad. I mean I may be biased on how much I don’t like it because UMvC3 is my favorite fighting game of all time other than Smash but I was really disappointed (like so disappointed I didn’t even buy it my girlfriend bought it and we only played like ten times)

But I disgress because we’re really off topic, but what do you guys think about Samus right now? I messed around with her and she’s definitely not a true zoner. She has a kind of push and pull neutral and is super super combo heavy. I don’t think she’s top tier or anything but from what I’ve watched and now playing her she seems around high-mid maybe just straight mid. She has trouble with being rushed down. I also think she’s gonna be a lot worse once people get consistent with parries because then she won’t be able to land her Charge Shot+pretty much anything shield break. Her B reversing is really cool though and it can definitely catch people off guard. Charge Shot is a ridiculously good move
 

zeldasmash

Smash Lord
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We're going way off topic but: everything I've heard about MvC:I is that mechanically its the best in the series. Just the roster, graphics style, music, and anything else that's appealing outside of mechanics sucks.

So basically UMvC3 with MvC:I's mechanics would be the best fighter of all time.
UMvC3's Roster and Graphics style + MvC:I's Newcomers, Gameplay mechanics and online mode = Top 5 Fighting games ever
 

MG_3989

Smash Lord
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UMvC3's Roster and Graphics style + MvC:I's Newcomers, Gameplay mechanics and online mode = Top 5 Fighting games ever
**** I’d already put UMvC3 as a top 5 fighting game ever. If MvC:I really did all that right those two combined might rival Smash as my favorite fighting game of all time (ok lets be honest, nothing will rival Smash)
 

J0eyboi

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 28, 2017
Messages
573
Ok so going back to what started all the MvC talk

There are actually shortcuts for doing a DP in this game. I personally use :GCDR::GCDR::GCA:, but there are others.

Also stop talking about MvC here. Use DMs for that or smth
 

zeldasmash

Smash Lord
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Puerto Rico
**** I’d already put UMvC3 as a top 5 fighting game ever. If MvC:I really did all that right those two combined might rival Smash as my favorite fighting game of all time (ok lets be honest, nothing will rival Smash)
Also considering RE7 and potentially DMC5, they could also improve on the story mode of MvC:I, which was only enjoyable in a Saturday Morning Cartoon vibe, but the roster and visuals is key here.

But we digressed quite a bit, let's go back to Smash. XD
 

earthboundspacefree

Smash Cadet
Joined
May 27, 2018
Messages
51
I played a little of it and it wasn’t a bad fighting game technically but it just wasn’t nearly as fun as UMvC3. UMvC2 and 3 had a magic and identity about them that made them so appealing and it’s completely missing in MvC:I. Plus they cut down the roster so bad. I mean I may be biased on how much I don’t like it because UMvC3 is my favorite fighting game of all time other than Smash but I was really disappointed (like so disappointed I didn’t even buy it my girlfriend bought it and we only played like ten times)

But I disgress because we’re really off topic, but what do you guys think about Samus right now? I messed around with her and she’s definitely not a true zoner. She has a kind of push and pull neutral and is super super combo heavy. I don’t think she’s top tier or anything but from what I’ve watched and now playing her she seems around high-mid maybe just straight mid. She has trouble with being rushed down. I also think she’s gonna be a lot worse once people get consistent with parries because then she won’t be able to land her Charge Shot+pretty much anything shield break. Her B reversing is really cool though and it can definitely catch people off guard. Charge Shot is a ridiculously good move
She’s way better than people were initially thinking. Like you said, her combo game is mega solid in this game, and it can’t be overstated how much the better charge shot helps. She can charge in midair which benefits her since charge shot can be a threat even while airborne (whereas in last game if it was uncharged, she just shot the puny uncharged shots). Charge shot seems way stronger in this game (don’t remember the exact changes so I could be wrong on how much stronger), which encourages approaching her even more. Charge shot puts opponents in a permanent state of unease. Iirc, her grab comes out a frame or two earlier now, plus she can get more off of her grabs this game, which means she has good tools to force approach and pretty decent tools to stuff approaches. On top of all that, bombs allow for great recovery mixup, and she has great edgeguarding tools. She’s no high tier, but she’s somewhere in that pretty darn good middle of the pack.
 

The_Bookworm

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 10, 2018
Messages
3,195
I just reentered the thread, and suddenly everyone is talking about MvC in an Ultimate thread. lol

Sounds like a good topic for a different thread though. Can't really give my input on MvC (never played the games), but it seems interesting.

She’s way better than people were initially thinking. Like you said, her combo game is mega solid in this game, and it can’t be overstated how much the better charge shot helps. She can charge in midair which benefits her since charge shot can be a threat even while airborne (whereas in last game if it was uncharged, she just shot the puny uncharged shots). Charge shot seems way stronger in this game (don’t remember the exact changes so I could be wrong on how much stronger), which encourages approaching her even more. Charge shot puts opponents in a permanent state of unease. Iirc, her grab comes out a frame or two earlier now, plus she can get more off of her grabs this game, which means she has good tools to force approach and pretty decent tools to stuff approaches. On top of all that, bombs allow for great recovery mixup, and she has great edgeguarding tools. She’s no high tier, but she’s somewhere in that pretty darn good middle of the pack.
Samus/DSamus does feel pretty good right now, with some of the reasons you mentioned why. Similar to SSB4, there are WiFi warriors doing really well with her. Happy to be one of the very few people who believed in her pre-release.
 

MG_3989

Smash Lord
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She’s way better than people were initially thinking. Like you said, her combo game is mega solid in this game, and it can’t be overstated how much the better charge shot helps. She can charge in midair which benefits her since charge shot can be a threat even while airborne (whereas in last game if it was uncharged, she just shot the puny uncharged shots). Charge shot seems way stronger in this game (don’t remember the exact changes so I could be wrong on how much stronger), which encourages approaching her even more. Charge shot puts opponents in a permanent state of unease. Iirc, her grab comes out a frame or two earlier now, plus she can get more off of her grabs this game, which means she has good tools to force approach and pretty decent tools to stuff approaches. On top of all that, bombs allow for great recovery mixup, and she has great edgeguarding tools. She’s no high tier, but she’s somewhere in that pretty darn good middle of the pack.
Yeah I agree with all of this. There’s really no overstating how much of a psychological advantage Charge Shot can be, it’s that good. Even sometimes when I’m playing Ness I get sucked into Charge Shot mindgames and focus way too much on trying to magnet the shot and start playing worse. Especially if I’m down because I keep thinking about restoring health but then I forget about all her other mixups. I know I can fix that by changing my mindset but that usually doesn’t happen to me. I usually never let other players options mind game me but Charge Shot for some reason is different (idk maybe it’s just me with this one). Everytime I lose to her is because she’s inside my head. I feel like she does a really good job of that and that might be her biggest advantage this game (other than her combo game obviously). She does get overwhelmed really easily though once I rush her down and if she can’t dictate the pace of the match she has a very hard time. I think playing a guerilla style aggro game against her is the best way to go
 
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fozzy fosbourne

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 1, 2019
Messages
102
Leo’s Ike MU chart and tier list:


Corrin seems to be more highly regarded by top players than the masses. Tweek last night on stream said he thinks she is pretty good too. She lives in the shadow of the other swordies tho.
 
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MG_3989

Smash Lord
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Leo’s Ike MU chart and tier list:


Corrin seems to be more highly regarded by top players than the masses. Tweek last night on stream said he thinks she is pretty good too. She lives in the shadow of the other swordies tho.
Ok at least he’s not straight disrespecting Ness like he did last time even though Ness should be in the tier above (I don’t wanna start this argument again just my opinion)So should YL probs. Also the more I’ve been thinking about Zelda I think she might be A and not B+. She’s definitely better than in Brawl and she’s oppressive on advantage. Also don’t get the Pits so low at all

His matchup chart definitely reaffirms me picking up Wolf as a secondary. I also don’t think Corrin is bad but nobody plays them. I haven’t seen any pro play of them I don’t think definitely seems to have a workable kit though although I didn’t play 4 and I heard the stun shot got mega nerfed. They’ve definitely got some decent buttons though but I don’t know too much about them so I’m not gonna say too much but I can see Corrin surprising. I didn’t play 4 but from what I’ve heard a lot of their player base dropped them so maybe they’re a candidate for some buffs or new players
 
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Ziodyne 21

Smash Lord
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Apr 11, 2016
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Welp, looks like Wolf and Lucina are going to end up as the go-to secondary and pocket characters. Heck they likely already are from what I saw at G6. They are both considered top-tier now many pros and the competive scene in general. both pretty easy to pick up and play and both fairly easy to win with long as you have a good grasp on fundamentals
 
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Ark of Silence101

Smash Master
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Leo’s Ike MU chart and tier list:


Corrin seems to be more highly regarded by top players than the masses. Tweek last night on stream said he thinks she is pretty good too. She lives in the shadow of the other swordies tho.
Call me annoying but what the heck happened to all the :ultchrom: hype? First people call him vastly superior to :ultroy: and now people either think their gap is non existent or that Roy is better(ZeRo and Samsora think so).
 

LightLV

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 17, 2014
Messages
748
We're going way off topic but: everything I've heard about MvC:I is that mechanically its the best in the series. Just the roster, graphics style, music, and anything else that's appealing outside of mechanics sucks.

So basically UMvC3 with MvC:I's mechanics would be the best fighter of all time.
Its mechanics were the reason why it was a terrible game.
People initially thought MvCI felt like a fun game because of how easy it was to do everything. But as the game started to try and evolve, it quickly became obvious that its mechanics are basically just designed to provide EZ-Access high level play concepts. The infinity stone system wasn't balanced in the slightest and honestly it doesn't even seem like they made an attempt to try.

the issue with Capcom's most recent fighters is that the mechanical focus seems to be entirely placed on explosive comebacks and trivializing the finer mechanics in an attempt to bring down the skill ceiling. The result is a game that's fun for a few months and then starts to just completely fall apart come tournament time because the game stagnates too fast.

Basically it was fun for a while, but the optimal way of playing MvCI due to its mechanics stagnated the game EXTREMELY fast. It completely lacked the nuance of MvC3 that made it so fun to spectate and last so long.

But I disgress because we’re really off topic, but what do you guys think about Samus right now? I messed around with her and she’s definitely not a true zoner. She has a kind of push and pull neutral and is super super combo heavy. I don’t think she’s top tier or anything but from what I’ve watched and now playing her she seems around high-mid maybe just straight mid. She has trouble with being rushed down. I also think she’s gonna be a lot worse once people get consistent with parries because then she won’t be able to land her Charge Shot+pretty much anything shield break. Her B reversing is really cool though and it can definitely catch people off guard. Charge Shot is a ridiculously good move
She's in a decent spot, i'd almost go as far to say she's underrated.

Samus is an example of a character where the majority of her buffs were actually indirect -- the changes to Defense (and of course the movement physics standardization) have buffed her significantly.

I think Samus' biggest asset in Ultimate is her ability to apply defensive pressure -- she can ramp up for shield break EXTREMELY easy, which not only gives you the possibility for easy kill / pokes, but it also serves as a universal pressure tool because you can pressure people into making bad decisions in an attempt to not block her most dangerous moves.

Samus is another example of the reason why I think Ultimate's changes were very good -- her projectiles are honestly not much better than they were in Smash 4, but due to the changes in defense you actually have to RESPECT them now, which gives her a presence that isn't so easy to ignore anymore. Combine that with her improved buttons (some of which are actually very good) and her ability to scrap a bit better, and you've got a pretty interesting character.

Basically, she finally has an actual gameplan now.


I don't feel like Parries are going to affect her very much -- i feel like parries are going to have a much higher affect on melee characters than zoners like Samus.
 
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J0eyboi

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 28, 2017
Messages
573
Call me annoying but what the heck happened to all the :ultchrom: hype? First people call him vastly superior to :ultroy: and now people either think their gap is non existent or that Roy is better(ZeRo and Samsora think so).
3 things, really.

1: People stopped using him and started using other FoTM characters. Roy's playerbase stayed mostly consistent.

2: People took Leffen's advice.

3: Chrom got inconsequentially nerfed and loss aversion kicked in, leading to lower perceptions of him despite a lack of meaningful changes.

Leo’s Ike MU chart and tier list:

I find it a bit odd that Leo thinks Ike is top 15 while also thinking he loses to all but 5 of the other characters in top 15 and only beats 2. I also think it's weird that he ranked Pika and Pichu as the same character because they really aren't.
 
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Foie

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 19, 2007
Messages
79
Just.....get Nintendo to not make him busted. There's not been a single crossover fighting game to my knowledge where Zero ain't top tier. He got nerfed in MvCI but the guy is still a massive threat (btw, I enjoy MvCI a lot for it's gameplay despite it clearly needing improvement).
Oh man, I've wanted Zero in smash for so long now! I'm surprised he doesn't do well in player ballots, such an awesome character. (I love him from the MegaMan Zero games on GBA, not actually MvC, although I did love him in that game too the little I played). Now I'm hoping he'll be dlc lol.

I do agree he could be fairly busted. Basically a strong swordie with awesome projectiles, I'd be interested to see how design him for smash.
 

Ziodyne 21

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So both Leo and ESAM think Wolf is better than Fox right now. Both had Wolf top-tier thier latest 2.0.0 tier lists while placing Fox a tier lower
 
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Ark of Silence101

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3 things, really.

1: People stopped using him and started using other FoTM characters. Roy's playerbase stayed mostly consistent.

2: People took Leffen's advice.

3: Chrom got inconsequentially nerfed and loss aversion kicked in, leading to lower perceptions of him despite a lack of meaningful changes.
I feel some of his playebase greatly exaggerates how much the nerf affected him, it's literally still there, you just can't cheese people with it on your last stock anymore, if that's such a huge deal for people then perhaps Chrom isn't the character for them.

Btw, Leffen's advice? What was his advice exactly?
 
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LightLV

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I've never understood the :ultchrom: hype. He's one of many characters in this game that have really high highs and REALLY low lows.

I just felt like the ability to counterpick him alone will stop him from ever being a meta-dominating pick.

He's undoubtedly a good character, but i think people just hype him mainly because of the typical Smash 4 mindset: "He can Fair you to death, so he must be the best in the game."

I mean, yeah, but he can get gimped just as fast as he can kill you....once his MU becomes more common and he actually has to start working just a littttttle harder for his kills, he's gonna start falling off.


I mean don't get me wrong, he's still good, but i fear more consistent characters like Inkling or Lucina WAY more than Chrom.
 
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fozzy fosbourne

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I feel some of his playebase greatly exaggerates how much the nerf affected him, it's literally still there, you just can't cheese people with it on your last stock anymore, if that's such a huge deal for people then perhaps Chrom isn't the character for them.

Btw, Leffen's advice? What was his advice exactly?
Not sure if this is what OP is referring to, but I’ve heard Leffen say a couple times that Chrom would drop as the meta progresses and edge guarding becomes more relevant. He had the same perspective on Fox in ultimate
 

LightLV

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Not sure if this is what OP is referring to, but I’ve heard Leffen say a couple times that Chrom would drop as the meta progresses and edge guarding becomes more relevant. He had the same perspective on Fox in ultimate
I agree with this fully. Edgeguarding is big in this game and characters like chrom have unnaturally bad recovery.


I PERSONALLY hold the belief that superlight characters (Pichu) are eventually going to fall off a bit too, not nearly as hard as the characters with bad recoveries but at least enough to stop them from holding #1 spots. Just like with the gimpables, lights like Pichu die EXTREMELY easy on this game, almost to the point where it actually balances out their high combo and oppression potential.

Like, characters can actually fight back in this game, and attacks as trivial as jab combos have kill potential now.
 
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Ark of Silence101

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Not sure if this is what OP is referring to, but I’ve heard Leffen say a couple times that Chrom would drop as the meta progresses and edge guarding becomes more relevant. He had the same perspective on Fox in ultimate
That's literally one of the things I had been advocating since the game came out, Chrom would be a straight upgrade from Roy if he had Roy's recovery, but what he has makes even more vulnerable to edgeguards than Roy already is.
 

earthboundspacefree

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I agree with this fully. Edgeguarding is big in this game and characters like chrom have unnaturally bad recovery.


I PERSONALLY hold the belief that superlight characters (Pichu) are eventually going to fall off a bit too, not nearly as hard as the characters with bad recoveries but at least enough to stop them from holding #1 spots. Just like with the gimpables, lights like Pichu die EXTREMELY easy on this game, almost to the point where it actually balances out their high combo and oppression potential.

Like, characters can actually fight back in this game, and attacks as trivial as jab combos have kill potential now.
Sheik didn’t really fall off in smash 4, considering nerfs, and she had trouble killing/was light. Pichu does what sheik did but better basically, just more risk/reward. He dies earlier, but can kill like a superheavy at times it feels like. With the consistency pros have, I don’t see him falling too much (though it is possible). I guess the counter to my point is that pros will also get better at punishing him, so maybe I’ve just gone full circle in this post lol.
 

The_Bookworm

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Leo’s Ike MU chart and tier list:


Corrin seems to be more highly regarded by top players than the masses. Tweek last night on stream said he thinks she is pretty good too. She lives in the shadow of the other swordies tho.
Solid list, especially in comparison to other top player tier lists. There are some iffy placements, but nothing too unusual from top player tier lists.

There are two notable things that many people pointed out in his Twitter comment thread:
  1. Pit/DPit in bottom tier?
  2. Ridley is apparently too big for tier lists. lol
 

MG_3989

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Solid list, especially in comparison to other top player tier lists. There are some iffy placements, but nothing too unusual from top player tier lists.

There are two notable things that many people pointed out in his Twitter comment thread:
  1. Pit/DPit in bottom tier?
  2. Ridley is apparently too big for tier lists. lol
I really really don’t understand Pit/Dpit being bottom tier but he’s had iffy choices on his tier lists before. Maybe it’s because they’re basically swordies without swordy range, but at the same time they’re fast, I think they have good frame data, they can edgeguard, they’re not easy to edgeguard themselves with a lot of recovery mixups and options, and they have an above average projectile. I really don’t get it, I mean I think they’re boring and literally in the middle of mid tier but definitely not bottom imo

Ridley is in a tier of his own. Or maybe he was too ugly for the tier list

Also about Chrom I see literally no reason to play him over Lucina. They have almost the same buttons and Lucina is so much more consistent
 
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Omnos

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I feel some of his playebase greatly exaggerates how much the nerf affected him, it's literally still there, you just can't cheese people with it on your last stock anymore, if that's such a huge deal for people then perhaps Chrom isn't the character for them.

Btw, Leffen's advice? What was his advice exactly?
The loss of the cheese from his up b was a big loss though. It's one of the worst recoveries in the game and now it doesn't scare opponents off stage unless they're already down a stock.

Leffens advice was for smash 4 players to start edge guarding. Something people are doing effectively now, which makes it even harder for chrom to recover.
 

KakuCP9

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I'm still adamant that what will hold Pichu back isn't her weight, but a lack of hitbox on her up-b. Also, her low fast-fall speed makes SHFF aerials more of liability since she can't reach the ground as fast as other SHFF aerials aside from floaties. Coupled with t-jolts hurting herself, her neutral is non-cohesive with zoning hurting her and approaching being difficult.
 

MG_3989

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Also seems like Leo is high on Lucas putting him in high tier. I haven’t seen many competitive players play Lucas but he does have an interesting kit with good aerials and maybe if people stopped comparing him to Ness all the time and trying to fit him into that mold he’d actually see play. He’s a completely different character and not even close to a semi-clone and I feel like a lot of people don’t even touch Lucas because they see him as a “clone”

He’s more of zoner, his PK Fire is dangerous, his PK Thunder while not as good as Ness’s for harassing, killing, or gimping, is a better recovery tool, and he has the little snake thing to recover with. He also has a decent grab game and good movement. His PSI Magnet is different than Ness’s and not as good for zoning but still incredibly useful. I think PK Freeze will turn out to be more cheese than a legit tool in his kit but I could be wrong and if I am wrong then Lucas is a whole different monster. I’d like to see him do well
 
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meleebrawler

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I worry about this in regards to Mewtwo, because most of the discussion about the character tends to be "does this combo into this? Can this be comboed into?" People will lament the loss of Nair+footstool+disable while also downplaying Disable having invincibility on frames 10 through 16 (move starts hitting on frame 16). No, it's not frame-1 invincible, but hot dang! Think about all the things you can challenge with it! You could potentially call out a fast smash or slow d-tilt at close range and get a MASSIVE punish off of it. But no, just keep complaining that d-tilt isn't as good anymore...
I'm not really hearing much about less combos for Mewtwo, it's more "waaaah my tail why do things hurt my TAIL?!?!" So it's not just combos they want, but also easily beating approaches by pushing buttons at it. As opposed to using strong evasive tactics.

Interestingly there's quite a lot of similarities between him and Ridley's playstyles. The main differences are Ridley is sturdier and better at scrapping while Mewtwo is a better zoner, counter-zoner and has a stronger throw game all-around.
 

SwagGuy99

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Solid list, especially in comparison to other top player tier lists. There are some iffy placements, but nothing too unusual from top player tier lists.

There are two notable things that many people pointed out in his Twitter comment thread:
  1. Pit/DPit in bottom tier?
  2. Ridley is apparently too big for tier lists. lol
Yeah this tier list doesn't seem that wonderful (to me anyways).

  • Wolf is being a bit overrated.
  • Palutena, Link, and Mega Man should all be around 20 spots lower.
  • I don't think Sonic or Luigi should be that low.
  • Bowser, Dr. Mario, and Falco could all move up to A tier with Sonic and Luigi.
  • The only characters that I think he has right in C Tier are Little Mac, Ice Climbers, and Mii Brawer. Everyone else is at least B Tier.
And even though I don't think it's great, I actually still agree with a lot of it like most of A and B Tiers along with characters 6-15.
 

Ziodyne 21

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Well I am not sure than Wolf is better than Fox ( Like MKleo and ESAM) think. But i think its safe to say that Wolf is not really that overated either. He bay be the current flavor of the month right now, but he has been getting results consistently even before he became that.
Surprisgnly Wolf actullay seems a bit harder to edgegaurd and gimp than Fox despite technically having weaker recovery options. Which is the reason Leffen thinks Fox will fall off eventullay
 
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