Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Gleam]

If you want my honest thoughts on Plant he feels like a Low Tier. His aerials and overall neutral game either suck or feel so clunky that I'm just not used to it. Plant does not feel like a character who is going to fare very well in direct combat. He doesn't have the speed, range or priority beyond a few select moves. As noted, his aerials feel like crap and they're main usage, such as Fair, is to be used a combo material for other moves. He feels like he's an easy character to combo and until he can get someone offstage will rely a bit more on baiting and punishing.

He doesn't "feel" good is the main thing to say. And hey, I main Ridley and people thought he sucked at first until people like Trela, Locus and Vreyus said "b**** come here." and we found out he was a borderline edgeguarding god with dozens of combo setups, a nigh broken edgeguarding projectile, an actual decent recovery both distance, power and priority and once people stopped playing him as a heavy people realized, this guy's not that bad.

Plant may be the same and so we'll see in the end. I don't see a character beyond Low Tier but hey, as someone who was really excited for Plant, I'd love to be wrong.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Plant down b has armor of some kind, seems like it might last up till its endlag. Don't sleep on it.

Speaking of not sleeping on things, those Roar buffs seem small but they're definitely nontrivial, especially the up b change.

 

[williamsga555]

Plant has a surprising amount of invincibility and armor scattered within his kit.
Up tilt, Up smash, F smash, F tilt, and Down B all have invincibility (Down B also has armor upon charging). In particular, Up Smash has invincibility throughout most of the active frames of the move. Going to be very potent OOS.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

So according to this Palu's n-air changes meant the move has been sped up , it still basically acts the same, but you have to be quicker to do the same chains as before

https://twitter.com/inktivate/status/1090442274272673792

 

[Krysco]

Plant down b has armor of some kind, seems like it might last up till its endlag. Don't sleep on it.

Speaking of not sleeping on things, those Roar buffs seem small but they're definitely nontrivial, especially the up b change.

One of the in-game tips mentions the armor:
"Long-Stem Strike Armor (Down Special)
Pirahna Plant gains super armor while charging this move. You'll lose the armor as soon as you stop charging."
Poison Breath is also the only chargeable and shield cancellable side special in the game since Sonic lost it upon the transition.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Another ingame tip says that the poison cloud duration goes down the more players are in the battle. Something to consider for doubles, at the very least.

TBH I don't see myself using Piranha Plant very much. Not that I think it's bad, but it just doesn't mesh with me all that well. That said, it's freaking hilarious as a concept and I look forward to seeing better players than I using it.

 

[Spinosaurus]

One of the in-game tips mentions the armor:
"Long-Stem Strike Armor (Down Special)
Pirahna Plant gains super armor while charging this move. You'll lose the armor as soon as you stop charging."
Poison Breath is also the only chargeable and shield cancellable side special in the game since Sonic lost it upon the transition.

Oh yep, armor when charging and the bite is fully intangible it seems. I think this move is really good!

 

[arbustopachon]

Hey Zard can kinda kill now with dash attack at very high percents if he has a lot of rage.
From what i tested it seems to kill mario on the spawn point of fd at around 150% with di at max rage. without di it killed at like 125%.
Plus late dash attack is now 2 frames safer on shield. That is always useful.

 

[meleebrawler]

Oh yep, armor when charging and the bite is fully intangible it seems. I think this move is really good!

I dunno, I remember getting hit out of the bungee strike by a well-placed hit. Could lead to some Dhalsim-style janky hitbox interactions. Or maybe it's just the brief window he lingers after the bite.

 

[KamikazePotato]

What does 'shortened the landing time' mean? Apparently it isn't actually landing lag?

 

[Thinkaman]

What does 'shortened the landing time' mean? Apparently it isn't actually landing lag?

As the Patch Notes Discussion thread mentions, this refers to the AC window.

 

[KamikazePotato]

So it's a...nerf? Happened to a lot of characters too.

 

[meleebrawler]

So it's a...nerf? Happened to a lot of characters too.

Doesn't ''shortened landing time'' mean ''less time where landing with this aerial incurs landing lag'' in layman's terms?

 

[trickroom]

Initial thoughts on Plant: he seems like a good character.

In the first 30 seconds of playing him, I thought otherwise. Then I started thinking outside the box.

F/D Smash seem to be disjointed. I could be wrong, but I didn’t take damage nor did my Smash stop when ROB threw his gyro at me for example.
Amazing recovery. Can kill on the top platform of battlefield and fake combo with up throw at low percentages.
Neutral B seems like a good ledgetrap/edgeguard tool. Not just using it on stage, but running off stage with it and even holding B is really good imo. If they hit you out of it, it just falls on them for an easy kill (especially if they don’t tech).
Fully charged Poison plus rapid jab does a ton of damage, up to almost 90% in an actual game (roughly between 60-85 on average in my experience so far).
Poison seems to be a good tool to hide your inputs since you can run into it, useful for ledgetrapping situations and forcing your opponent to guess.
Fully charged Down B reaches so far and kills at just over 100%, sometimes slightly less.
Dair spikes and is totally safe to just throw out off stage, just like Megamans Dair.
The best win animations.

Atm, he seems to be a ledgetrap/edgeguard character, like the Belmonts. I can see good things in the future for Plant.

I agree with this. She (plant is a girl, read the Palutena's Guidance or note the word 'Kaempferin' used in the German info about the character) feels weird when you try to only use her normals, because her specials seem trash when you watch videos of them -- but actually using them, you begin to notice that A) neutral b is a really really solid move for all sorts of zoning, damage, frametraps, edgeguards, B) poison does no hitstun but the cloaking effect and the multihit shield damage and just plain ol' damage are crazy good, and C) even the down-b synergizes well with her other zoning tools as a nice mixup, and at the very least it's unpunishable when long range enough. I don't know how strong she'll end up, but I think anyone calling her a low tier is ignoring the value in all of her special moves.


Also, on an informative note, one of the reasons PP's falling uair is so finnicky is that it has really bad z-axis issues:

(sorry for the poor angles, these were hastily capped from Nairo's stream)

 

[Nobie]

No one should be surprised that Mega Man's pellet-cancel leaf shield got nerfed. Pellets and Leaf Shield separately are still really good moves, and getting like a free 22% off of a pellet was kind of absurd.

Character still has plenty to work with.

 

[Repli.Cant]

Playing a bunch of Plant, I'm loving him so far. But he feels really weird! His aerial movement will take some getting used to.

Pros: High damage output, nasty ledge trapping game, survivability is above average. Great recovery, distance-wise, is a top-tier boy.

Cons: Gets juggled pretty easily. Really has to fish for those kills. Bair is a great kill move, but has poor range and noticeable endlag. His smash attacks all have a bit a startup, and down b is pretty telegraphed. Average to below-average range on most moves.

I don't want to say whether he'll be good or bad or low tier or top tier or whatever just yet. He's still new and who knows what we might find out.

 

[Swaggy-G]

Something that made me curious is that they made 's missiles improved. However, they didn't list in the same change for . Is it an error in their part, or they are actually making another difference between the two?

Dark Samus is shorter than Samus, so her attacks have an easier time hitting grounded opponents. She also sidesteps instead of going into the morph ball when side-dodging, so she can act out slightly faster.
My guess is that they didn't realize that DS is technically a better character until recently, and decided to buff Samus to compensate.

 

[KirbySquad101]

Alrighty, labbed with Mr. Plant for a bit, some things I caught on to as I did:

- Side B, like mentioned, does a lot of damage, even uncharged; not only that, but it reduces an opponent's shield almost instantaneously, which can lead to an easy shield break if they do it.
- It's also a bit of a double edged sword though: The opponent is taking a lot of damage, but you also can't see what they're doing, meaning they essentially have the element of surprise on their side.
- D-Throw leads to follow-ups at early percents; the best follow-up seems to be F-Air.
- His aerials, aside from DAir and NAir are a bit laggy on start-up and don't really have good coverage barring NAir; BAir can be used for KOs at later percents, but landing it seems to be a bit of a challenge.
- He's got a good set of ledgetrapping options in the form of Down B and B; B sort of acts like a slightly trickier Axe, and while the wind-up time is a bit noticeable, Down B itself comes out really fast, which makes it a strong option to surprise opponents with.
- USmash kills stupidly early for it start-up, and has quite a bit of reach (vertically anyway), I've gotten KOs with it at percents as low as 90% with it, making Piranha Plant really dangerous to challenge on the ground while the opponent is in the air. However, the move has limited horizontal coverage, so it's not always a good move to throw out.
- UTilt can also KO starting at higher percents and is an all-around decent juggling option; like USmash, it can be hard hitting grounded opponent's with it as it has limited horizontal coverage.
- DTilt leads to follow-ups at around 0% to 60%, I believe. Not too sure about the percent range atm.
- Surprisingly really heavy (112, I believe), and doesn't have much of a hurtbox compared to characters of his weight class, which is definitely a good combination to have.
- Has a kill throw in the form of UThrow (starts KOing at +165%). Generally strong, high damaging, and is only slightly weaker than Zelda's UThrow.

Piranha Plant is a huge anomaly to me at the me that I'm still trying to figure out what it's all about XD Definitely fun to play, and discussing anything about it relating to tiers seems kind of nonsensical to me, tbh.

 

[zblaqk]

So just playing for a few minutes, you can already see both some positives and negatives. It's easy to see Neutral B as being a nice edgeguarding tool. Side B is another move I can easily see just putting pressure on edgeguarding and forcing different approach while racking up damage. Down B is the same, why risk getting to the edge when I can just sit back here in the corner to make certain moves though much like Ridley's Skewer I can see Down B as being very situation.

You can true combo Dthrow to Fair and Dtilt+Fair each one can be true comboed to as high as 130%...like go easy Plant. You can true combo a few early percentage Utilts which could probably be comboed into a few other moves. Right now, from testing (and that's what this is, just testing) Plant doesn't have a lot of combos but the ones he does last a long time.

Like a true combo as high as 130%, that's nice.

Plant feels like a character who is going to rely on his minimum but lasting combos and utilizing his specials to force different approaches, edgeguard and rack up damage. I can easily see Plant as a character who can provide a decent level of pressure when it comes to offstage control. Side B for example seems to pretty much cover all options in damage racking while keeping Plant at a safe distance.

If you hang on the edge, you take damage. If you try to roll or attack, you take damage, if you try to jump you take damage. It's, as I play, a decent damage racking move. It's a move I can see forcing different approaches and aggression. Like if you want to get to me, you're going to be taken a few licks whether you like it or not.

Plant's recovery is nice distance wise but with no options out of it makes it easy to intercept.

Those are what I've found out right now.

You can use your side B to hide when you're doing a Down B, mixing up the opponent at kill percents

 

[Fatmanonice]

Played about 20 matches with Ice Climbers and the AI buff feels significant. Nana doesn't hurr durr as hard when she's away from you and the number of times she died early was way less. I think there were maybe two matches where I was stranded because she heard the call of the void. Most of her deaths were either with Popo or from being assblasted out of the screen. She actually feels like a partner now instead of an idiot kid sister who wants to play in traffic.

 

[Nobie]

I think Mewtwo's dash attack nerf is for online, where a bit of lag can potentially make Shadow Ball -> Dash Attack a shield-break combo. (It can be hard to figure out when you're supposed to let go of shield if the game is laggy.)

It is what it is.

 

[J0eyboi]

I think Mewtwo's dash attack nerf is for online, where a bit of lag can potentially make Shadow Ball -> Dash Attack a shield-break combo. (It can be hard to figure out when you're supposed to let go of shield if the game is laggy.)

It is what it is.

No, I'm pretty sure the Mewtwo dash attack nerf is just to make its shieldstun what it's supposed to be. Prior to this patch, it had a massive 20 frames of shieldstun for no reason (similarly damaging moves had 12).

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Plant's Down B might be more of a liability than anything. The neck is a hurt box during their reach which means things like this can happen.

 

[Gleam]

Plant's Down-B might be decent enough as anti-aerial move. Basically using it during that 45 or so degree angle Plant tilts at when you move. I can potentially see it being used to again force different approaches and handle over aggression to those who attack from the air. I don't think it would be wise to heavily rely on the full and ultimately laggy range of a full Down B.

But just a quick "Bite" which leaves you with more room to recover. A character such as Jigglypuff who relies so heavily on her aerials, would potentially find it very difficult to approach from certain angles.

Plant again seems to have this formation around him that he can keep opponents off of him or make them work for it. Which is good because I think once you do get within his range and he does have to start fighting, I'm not sure he'll fair as well.

 

[Tesh]

Plant's Down B might be more of a liability than anything. The neck is a hurt box during their reach which means things like this can happen. View attachment 189327View attachment 189328

Liability vs strong single hits, but he gets away with a lot vs combo starters from what I've seen so far. He is often in range for you to hit him, but not in range now that you've struck him.

 

[NotLiquid]

So by nerfing the bury timer/knockback on Inkling roller they inadvertedly turned a tool that was only a scrub killer at sub-100% to a tool that you can get solid mid percent combos off of and also set up tech chase situations. The bury timer nerf is also insignificant at 100%.

The monkey's paw curls a finger.

 

[TTTTTsd]

So by nerfing the bury timer/knockback on Inkling roller they inadvertedly turned a tool that was only a scrub killer at sub-100% to a tool that you can get solid mid percent combos off of and also set up tech chase situations. The bury timer nerf is also insignificant at 100%.

The monkey's paw curls a finger.

They nerfed the hitbox too so the move got blasted generally. Not really a monkey's paw, but roller wasn't a super significant move to begin with so its like...ok I guess

 

[Thinkaman]

Stock Trading:

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Noteably missing (imo):
Noteably nerfed for lower-level play, trivial impact (better?) in higher-level play:

Most characters are not worth talking about. I *really* support tightening down AC windows, but in most cases I see that as more of a QoL tweak than a buff. I guess it's nice that Diddy can SHAC nair now, but I don't think that moves the needle for him, you know?

I don't think anyone expected Puff to get a large buff, but 12 -> 10 bair startup improvement is one of the best. The buffs to puff are being overhyped a tad, but it's still noteable and will hopefully attract some more attention to a character who is holding her own but is unhappy with the number of swords in the game.

Rosalina and Brawler deserved the buffs more than just about anyone, though I can't imagine either getting pushed out of the bottom. Still, these are nice upgrades.

About 9 others got something that will nudge the needle in a small but meaningful way.some of these are surprising, but I think people will be glad to see love towards Samus, Kirby, and Incineroar in particular. The ICs change is really more QoL, but it makes a big enough deal to include in this discussion.

Luigi seems to have lost his "inifnite", except maybe not? And got other small buffs? Need investigation.

Jury still out on the DH special FAF trade. Seems better?

No one should be surprised that MegaMan lost his dumb thing, or that Inkling Roller bury duration was nerfed. Duh.

Also, K. Rool. But as expected, they went after his junk that's problematic at lower levels. With ther way d-throw was adjusted to be actually better at higher percents, I don't expect these adjustments to be relevant in competitive games outside of dthrow-utilt situations.

Mac is looking a tad sad right now, but perhaps he doesn't mind life online that much, where >50% of his matches are FD.

Bottom line, minimal changes. A handful of dumb things were snipped, but in terms oppf movement very little happened outside a limited number of modest buffs.


Edit: Oh, and trade Plant poison against rapid jabs. It's kinda gross.

 

[Gleam]

Another thing for

Using Neutral B and Down B from the airmight actually make for some decent edgeguarding tools. Down-B as we know already had super armour and a great range. It could be feasible enough to just jump down and get your Down-B ready. Most attacks can't hurt you and you force opponents into a position where they can't recover above you without risking getting struck.

Neutral B may be even better. It puts Plant in this nice slow free fall position where the spike ball will more often than not land on an opponent. I've literally been grabbed by Ganon's Dark Dive and in the middle of being shocked, had the ball slam onto his dumb head. It's like, you can't hurt this flower without somehow hurting yourself in return.

 

[NotLiquid]

They nerfed the hitbox too so the move got blasted generally. Not really a monkey's paw, but roller wasn't a super significant move to begin with so its like...ok I guess

If there is a hitbox change it's felt kinda negligible so far from my experience. Overall the "nerf" gives it a powerful application at 30-50% that it previously didn't have. This thing is still going to get a lot of people frustrated, it feels like they nerfed it just to say they did, which is all sorts of hilarious to me.

 

[TTTTTsd]

If there is a hitbox change it's felt kinda negligible so far from my experience. Overall the "nerf" gives it a powerful application at 30-50% that it previously didn't have. This thing is still going to get a lot of people frustrated, it feels like they nerfed it just to say they did, which is all sorts of hilarious to me.

I'd agree but good mashing at those %s effectively make it the same anyways. It doesn't do anything new, it just buries for less, but its not like Inkling couldn't do stuff from it before anyways. That's the general gist of it really, I can't see it as a "monkey paw" situation: the options have always been there, you're just forced to explore them now.

 

[Planty]

I've seen some people talking about buffs, but they aren't too significant. The most notable change is that dash attack links properly now, which is definitely nice (they did that by making it so that if Luma and Rosa hit the opponent at the same time, it registers as one hit and not two. Definitely a strange fix, but it works)

Luma Shot also has less lag now by a few frames (both on the initial shot and the recall) which definitely pushes her more towards that intended Ultimate playstyle of being a puppet master, but it doesn't change the fact that Luma is still pretty weak and fragile. Still, it might lead to more detethered play where Luma gets sent out to try and create a trap and then quickly recalled. (You can definitely feel the difference that those shaved off frames make)

Outside of these more notable changes, d-tilt has a bit of a range increase because Luma sticks out more and the move is more similar to smash 4, but doesn't significantly change the way she plays. Her dair spikes earlier now, which again isn't too big a deal. If Luma is tethered, his dair will still override Rosalina's because his comes out later. Being able to have a spike out a few frames earlier mainly benefits her if she can get her opponent into an edgeguard situation while Luma is dead, which is not going to happen very often. Her nair also starts on frame 9 instead of frame 10 and it hits in front of her now on frame 9 instead of frame 11. It's a welcome change of course, but nothing major. The rest of her changes are fairly inconsequential.

I think these buffs are a good change of course, even if they're not game changing, but I expect her to get a lot of small buffs over the course of the game, similarly to Smash 4 Marth.

 

[Nate1080]

After playing a couple of matches online, Plant’s Neutral is really awkward like I expected (mirror is even weirder imo).


Plant’s best tools suggest that you want them to approach you, so you can trap them in the corner (like Belmonts for example), but you have nothing that forces anyone to actually approach you or even force them into a corner. You have to approach them like a brawler, but your approach tools suck and you have stubby range. The best you can do in neutral is use poison to try to entice them into a bad position, this doesn’t work well if they have a good projectile, speedy and/or have good range/disjoints (Cloud, for example, is a really bad match up).

You’re essentially fishing for openings and mistakes rather than creating them. This becomes even more apparent in the mirror, where you’re throwing out weird buttons just to start racking up damage and pushing them to the edge. You have good kill moves/combos without an efficient way to set up into those kill moves/combos. Plant has to work really hard to get into advantage and score a kill.

Plant feels like a good character, but plays like a mediocre one in practice.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

The patch notes don't seem to change a lot of things they seem to have gotten rid of sum janky stuff some weird nerfs but overall nothing that's going to shake up things too much. With the exception of the Jigglypuff buffs not really sure why they decided to buff her but she's probably upper mid to high tier now. Definitely not a character to be trifled with.

 

[NotLiquid]

I'd agree but good mashing at those %s effectively make it the same anyways. It doesn't do anything new, it just buries for less, but its not like Inkling couldn't do stuff from it before anyways. That's the general gist of it really, I can't see it as a "monkey paw" situation: the options have always been there, you're just forced to explore them now.

These particular options haven't always been there. The bury timer change affects knockback, which in turn opens up options at mid percent. Inkling can do more stuff she couldn't do before, specifically off of roller into turnaround roller.

 

[G. Stache]

Apparently Luigi still has zero to deaths, at least that’s what elegant and concon have been doing in a training room environment. Not sure how much DI will really affect the new zero to death combo(s), but I’m guessing not that much. Very nice QoL buffs by increasing the power of down b and up smash. Those two moves in particular felt kinda underwhelming at times as finishers. Glad they got amped up, if only a tiny bit. I’m sure Luigi will be just fine, if not better off, from this update. Elegant seems adamant that Luigi was overall buffed and I’m inclined to agree

Also, as someone who is very high on bowser in this game, I didn’t think he really needed buffs and even though they’re kinda small (I’m not quite sure how much Nintendo decided to increase d smash’s power, but I’m sure that info will come later) it made what I think is the best heavy in the game atm and a good character overall even better. Not a lot of people seem to talk about Bowser - which is perfectly fine when there’s 70+ other characters to talk about - but to me Bowser feels like he finally got designed right and I kinda wanted to do a write up or something of the sort on him if I ever get the time tomorrow. Dude’s pretty bonkers in quite a few ways and I’m kinda surprised nobody’s really been repping him in tournaments. Hopefully that will change as time goes on.

 

[TTTTTsd]

These particular options haven't always been there. The bury timer change affects knockback, which in turn opens up options at mid percent. Inkling can do more stuff she couldn't do before, specifically off of roller into turnaround roller.

Ah, interesting. Did you test this against good/ideal mashing, however?

 

[TimG57867]

There's actually one more lovely nuance to 's new F-Tilt thanks to the BKB buff which, after looking at characters like and in envy for longest time, actually has me stoked: Kirby's F-Tilt can kill now.

From what 1 of my Discord mates told me (haven't updated yet cause replays), on the ledge of Final Destination with 100% rage and no DI, Kirby's F-Tilt can kill Mario at 125%. With fully optimal DI, it'll kill at 144%. To put that in perspective, an optimally DI'd Kirby Up Throw won't kill Mario on FD until 150%. And keep in mind unlike Up Throw which has an easily reactable animation, Kirby's F Tilt is a Frame 5 move that isn't exactly easy to react to. Not only that, but F Tilt on most of the roster connects very well out of Kirby's D-Air even when he has rage compared to getting a grab off it which can be shakier when the enemy's at higher percents. This has basically made a Kirby much more threatening on the ledge. You all see the horrifying things does with her bonkers F Tilt when ledgetrapping. If what I hear is true than Kirby now has a more modest version of that at his disposal. Combined with F Tilt's BKB sending enemies into tumble much earlier and opening up many more Jab Lock opportunities for Kirby, I think I can confidently say that Kirby's F Tilt has skyrocketed through the ranks of his moveset in overall utility.

Now don't get me wrong, I am not saying Kirby just got a ticket to high tier or anything crazy like that. But from what I've been reading, Kirby's new F Tilt is looking nice and at the perfect time too with Tilts out of a Dash being a thing now.



.....Huh. What a weird world where Kirby's F Tilt getting a BKB increase and having 4 less FAF frames has us Kirbies more hyped than Stone finally getting superarmor on startup (frames 19 to 28 to be precise) and no longer being the worst landing option in the game now.

 

[NotLiquid]

Ah, interesting. Did you test this against good/ideal mashing, however?

I'm not personally around to test this very sec unfortunately, though from what I read at the 40% range it should be unmashable. The timer still increases rather generously to the point that at 100% it may as well be the same as prepatch.

 

[Minordeth]

God, Plant is weird.

So, uh, her jab is frame 2.
A frame 2 jab on a super heavyweight.

I mean, okay.

She seems to function like a bait and punish super heavy. Which, is like.

Okay.

Her Ftilt has an optional second hit. That’s kind of amazing. But...

okay.

She may have Falco tier edgeguarding with D3 tier ledge guarding.

Okay.

Character is probably... okay?