Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[NotLiquid]

If it weren't for the somewhat generous landing lag I'd call it right now and say Piranha Plant has the best spike DAir in the game.

 

[Ffamran]

If it weren't for the somewhat generous landing lag I'd call it right now and say Piranha Plant has the best spike DAir in the game.

Specifically why? I want to say Ivysaur has the best Dair spike in the game because of how massive its hitbox is.

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Compared to Piranha Plant, Ivysaur's Dair is only 2 frames slower at frame 11 and that's pretty fast for a Dair spike. Movement-wise, Ivysaur is slower moving that Piranha Plant, so there is that.

Ivysaur frame data: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...f1GGIteH35UX3IM7-mnbdG6eE/edit#gid=1388589814.

Piranha Plant initial frame data: https://smashboards.com/threads/initial-piranha-plant-frame-data.474220/. The Japanese spreadsheet doesn't have aerials data yet.

 

[Kellojolly]

Have you guys played around with:

Greninja
Lucario
Ryu/Ken
Link

Would love you hear your thoughts on it.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

God, Plant is weird.

So, uh, her jab is frame 2.
A frame 2 jab on a super heavyweight.

I mean, okay.

She seems to function like a bait and punish super heavy. Which, is like.

Okay.

Her Ftilt has an optional second hit. That’s kind of amazing. But...

okay.

She may have Falco tier edgeguarding with D3 tier ledge guarding.

Okay.

Character is probably... okay?

Its clear is meant to follow similar "WTF" character inclusions in the past like from Melee and in Smash 4. In that she seems designed to play just as weird and esoteric as you would think at first glance . heh

 

[NotLiquid]

inkling roller

bkb: 60 > 25
kbg: 80 > 105 (excuse me?)
now attached to some other bone and had hitbox placement nerfs

the KB reductions means the bury doesn't last as long early but probably once you get to like 80-90ish(?) it lasts longer. get away from me.

— Kurogane Hammer (@KuroganeHammer) January 30, 2019

Lmao. The percentage range is a bit YMMV depending on your character but yeah, roller still looking like it's gonna be hell for people.

Specifically why? I want to say Ivysaur has the best Dair spike in the game because of how massive its hitbox is.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Compared to Piranha Plant, Ivysaur's Dair is only 2 frames slower at frame 11 and that's pretty fast for a Dair spike. Movement-wise, Ivysaur is slower moving that Piranha Plant, so there is that.

Ivysaur frame data: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...f1GGIteH35UX3IM7-mnbdG6eE/edit#gid=1388589814.

Piranha Plant initial frame data: https://smashboards.com/threads/initial-piranha-plant-frame-data.474220/. The Japanese spreadsheet doesn't have aerials data yet.

On the real I forgot entirely about Ivysaur's DAir so I'm gonna have to retract that statement LOL

 

[MG_3989]

So in case any of you were wondering PSI Magnet does not work on Plant’s side b. Took about 40 damage to the face from that one. Plant’s interesting and super awkward to play as and to fight. I think it’s gonna take at least a week or so for the new character hype to die down to get to a point where we can actually analyze Plant as a character in competitive. I know I could never pull off an awkward character like that but I know there are people out there who thrive on that kind of stuff so we’ll have to see

I don’t wanna jump the gun and say I don’t think Plant will be relevant in the competitive scene because I can be completely wrong but from my perspective and the way I play the game they just don’t vibe. I like fluid stringy characters though which Plant definitely isn’t so I’m not the best person to judge this

 

[Ffamran]

On the real I forgot entirely about Ivysaur's DAir so I'm gonna have to retract that statement LOL

The past couple of pages where people talked about Pokemon Trainer in general and with some complaints about Ivysaur, I figured Ivysaur's Dair and Uair would have been mentioned. Before the game was released, people noted that those moves were pretty good because of their hitboxes and apparently PM Ivysaur's Dair's hitbox was also big as well.

 

[Minordeth]

Seems clear that the Poison Cloud is a means of covering the midrange approach.

- charge at the beginning of a match > get in midrange > poison cloud

It’s at this point it becomes a bit of a mind game. The opponent could rush in and nothing would stop them from just going for grab or run-tilt or whatever. But, Plant can drastically shrink her hurtbox, jump out, shield, or do whatever.

You could wait and react depending on the distance, but she’s got a decent burst option, and that seems a little risky. You could fire some projectiles in, depending on your character, but then it becomes a game of reads.

She literally has a mobile Fog of War.

 

[MG_3989]

The past couple of pages where people talked about Pokemon Trainer in general and with some complaints about Ivysaur, I figured Ivysaur's Dair and Uair would have been mentioned. Before the game was released, people noted that those moves were pretty good because of their hitboxes and apparently PM Ivysaur's Dair's hitbox was also big as well.

I’m surprised those two weren’t talked about as possible nerfs before the patch hit. Another move I was surprised no one was talking about as a possible nerf or mechanic change (and I didn’t wanna bring it up because I didn’t wanna jinx it) was Ness’s yo-yo just based on the way Smash has treated mechanics like it in the past

Honestly I could see Jiggs buff having the biggest effect on the meta out of anything else to come out of this

 

[Omnos]

Have you guys played around with:

Greninja
Lucario
Ryu/Ken
Link

Would love you hear your thoughts on it.

Apparently Anti said he's going to be dropping Lucario (he was supposedly quite mad before ending his stream) because of the nerf.

I haven't seen a clip or the VOD though, just heard about it on nairos stream when he was hosted by anti. So it might just be a rumour?

 

[Browny]

Incineroar is the new king of the upthrow, barely edging out Mewtwo for KO'ing the earliest with optimal DI. On lightweights on platforms with rage its almost identical, but without rage, on heavies from the bottom of the stage its 3% earlier.

 

[PURGE THEM LIKE THE]

Incineroar is the new king of the upthrow, barely edging out Mewtwo for KO'ing the earliest with optimal DI. On lightweights on platforms with rage its almost identical, but without rage, on heavies from the bottom of the stage its 3% earlier.

Olimar's blue up throw with 3 pikmin kills bowser about 13% earlier with good di.
161% vs 174%

 

[Browny]

Olimar's blue up throw with 3 pikmin kills bowser about 13% earlier with good di.
161% vs 174%

I forgot about that. That said, I was testing on BF, I got 11% difference. 184 vs 173.

 

[PURGE THEM LIKE THE]

my b, i was testing on final destination

 

[Diddy Kong]

So in short, I've heard of buffs on Diddy? That's good. Haven't played in a while tho.

 

[trickroom]

Apparently Anti said he's going to be dropping Lucario (he was supposedly quite mad before ending his stream) because of the nerf.

I haven't seen a clip or the VOD though, just heard about it on nairos stream when he was hosted by anti. So it might just be a rumour?

Seems true.

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I'm surprised he thinks Lucario's one nerf (to hitstun on Aura Sphere) is big enough to justify dropping the character, but I know he was posting about aura sphere confirms so I guess it's a valuable tool for him.

 

[KakuCP9]

Seems true.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

I'm surprised he thinks Lucario's one nerf (to hitstun on Aura Sphere) is big enough to justify dropping the character, but I know he was posting about aura sphere confirms so I guess it's a valuable tool for him.

Except that one change is like shooting Lucario in the knees. Like, the ASC tech gave him an extremely unique combo game/array of kill confrims that have been around since Smash 4. He still benefits from the charge special mechanics, but this kills alot of what his playerbase (my self included) loved about the character. God, I want hit whoever thought nerfing ASC was a good idea with a brick.

 

[missingnomaster]

Piranha Plant's recovery is so easy to interrupt that it feels like the huge distance it gets doesn't even matter, I have an easier time making it back with Ganondorf. It might be possible to fend off the opponent with Down B off-stage some of the time. It seems like the best option right now anyway, maybe someone else will come up with something better.

 

[Nate1080]

Down B with Plant feels awkward tbh. Its a good move, but angling it feels weird to do, the timing feels weird; and sometimes on stage, its lowest angle doesn’t fully extend, almost as if its hitting the stage.

 

[missingnomaster]

Down B with Plant feels awkward tbh. Its a good move, but angling it feels weird to do, the timing feels weird; and sometimes on stage, its lowest angle doesn’t fully extend, almost as if its hitting the stage.

It's really awkward because aiming it is literally just the pot tipping over and falling on its side, so getting anything other than straight up or the lowest angle does require really strict timing. I haven't seen the second issue you mentioned yet, though it does remind me that the move is interesting on sloped stages like Yoshi's Island since that gives you extra angles to work with.

 

[Nate1080]

The second issue just kept happening to me last night while playing matches online. It just wasn’t extending all the way sometimes, like it bumped into the ground around halfway.

 

[Gleam]

Having played Plant a bit longer, I must say there is some real hidden potential of a decent to good character I think here. The applicability to many of his specials allow for a lot of mindgames and pressure. Poison is practically free damage and goes through as far as I know, everything, hides you and allows for different mixups as well as a nice way to rack up damage on edgeguarding.

Neutral B, Ptooie, however I think has a lot more applicability than we first realized. sure it's a nice way to edgeguard but it also provides some fine anti-air capabilities and can be mixed up with other moves. You could do something like Poison at one point of edge, fire a ball and jump off, freaking out your opponent with 3 different things they'd have to watch out for. As I said, it's surprisingly nice as both an anti-aerial move and a recovery breaker.

Down-B is a bit more situational but I can see it being applicable in a few places.

He of course has his 0-130% combo.

Just imagine at the end of the stage, Poison+Ptooie+Aerial. Constantly mixing up your moves that forces your opponent to make quick choices, often at the expense of taking damage. When your opponent is hanging from the ledge and you stand there with Neutral B, you cut off basically most of their options to get back on stage without taking damage.

If they try to roll, you can potentially take them out with a nice blow of your spiked ball.
If they try to do a get up attack, they get hit by the spiked ball.
If they try to do a regular jump, depending on the character, they get hit by the spiked ball.
If they try to jump back, you can follow up with the spiked ball.
If they're recovery move hits you, it can lead to getting hit by the spiked ball.
A regular get up is basically the only option. It's obviously not but it just goes to show how one move can really effect things at times.

It's even worse if you add Poison because at that point you don't got a choice but to take something in the face.

Plant has so many options for mindgames and mixups and an arsenal that makes him a deadly force to reckon with in edge and ledgeguarding.

I can see a character who has been given the tools to be decent but we'll see if the Plant Mains can put it to use.

 

[Fatmanonice]

The Plant's biggest strength will likely be against fast fallers who have to fight up close and personal but I feel like this character is going to suffer against characters that can fight long range. It has a lot of priority in its utilt and usmash and a great jab but its aerials are underwhelming especially with its aerial speed and atrocious landing lag. I imagine that it'll do good againist characters like Roy and Fox but bad against characters like Palutena and Inkling.

 

[Androobie]

With the Chrombo being nerfed, would you guys still say that Chrom is better than Roy simply because of the lack of a sourspot?

 

[Emblem Lord]

Chrom is slightly better still.

He can still be mindless and throw out hitboxes without much care.

 

[J0eyboi]

With the Chrombo being nerfed, would you guys still say that Chrom is better than Roy simply because of the lack of a sourspot?

Do you want to kill earlier and recover more easily, but sometimes lose games because you hit a sourspot, or do you want to kill more consistently, but sometimes lose games because your recovery sucks?

Which one is better is pretty subjective at this point, imo. It depends on whether you value killing consistently more than not dying consistently.

 

[The_Bookworm]

With the Chrombo being nerfed, would you guys still say that Chrom is better than Roy simply because of the lack of a sourspot?

Chrom is still better. Simply having a consistent blade is a huge thing to have. Roy's recovery, while better than Chrom's, still kind of sucks, so having the extra boost in recovery oftentimes makes no difference. Almost everything that edgeguards Chrom, reliably edgeguards Roy as well.

Chrombo is still very potent when you have a stock lead, or if you are losing hard in percent.

 

[Terotrous]

Now that Chrom's meteor is weaker, are there any characters that can actually get hit by Chrom's UpB offstage and live?

Would be very relevant matchup information for those characters since they could now edgeguard him with relative impunity.

 

[Thinkaman]

Looks like the scaling is such that the bury moves are the same/better at ~>100%. (Varies by weight) So the competitive impact on K. Rool is nil, and Inkling hasn't budged much, particularly as it relates to killing.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Now that Chrom's meteor is weaker, are there any characters that can actually get hit by Chrom's UpB offstage and live?

Would be very relevant matchup information for those characters since they could now edgeguard him with relative impunity.

People still straight up die at 0%. The only thing it changes it that Chrom now dies first. Still a very potent option when behind by a lot in percent, or if you are in a stock lead.

 

[IsmaR]

Dark Samus is shorter than Samus, so her attacks have an easier time hitting grounded opponents. She also sidesteps instead of going into the morph ball when side-dodging, so she can act out slightly faster.
My guess is that they didn't realize that DS is technically a better character until recently, and decided to buff Samus to compensate.

Despite not being listed, Dark Samus got the exact same buff as Samus for homing missiles.

/the one that edited that into the patch notes thread after verifying with several people

 

[SwagGuy99]

here it is on a normal stage, if its easier to understand on FD instead of the wonky training stage.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Good. Luigi did not need any huge nerfs.

 

[bc1910]

Honestly ASC stuff was pretty obnoxious particularly as a landing mixup. Whilst I didn’t see it as a major point of balancing contention I can’t say I’m sorry it’s been weakened.

I say this as someone who’s pretty anti-Lucario because of his stupid design though.

Have you guys played around with:

Greninja
Lucario
Ryu/Ken
Link

Would love you hear your thoughts on it.

Gren lost Hydro Pump cancels on moving platforms and slopes. This only affects a couple of stages in a Hazards Off environment. It’s notable on Brawl Yoshi’s but doesn’t make much difference otherwise. It seems cancels on ledges and non-moving platforms are still in.

The Dsmash buff appears to make it easier for Gren to hit opponents hanging on the ledge but I have yet to verify with my own testing since I’m still using the old spacing. If true it’s a decent QoL buff, might lead to better 2-framing.

Overall nothing has really changed for Gren except on Brawl Yoshi’s where he’s worse, but I never liked that stage due to the slopes messing up shurikens anyhow. Hydro Pump cancels were never fully optimised so it’s a case of us never really knowing what we were missing, which I’m fine with.

She may have Falco tier edgeguarding with D3 tier ledge guarding.

Okay.

Character is probably... okay?

PSA for anyone still unaware - Piranha Plant is not a “she”. When Palutena says “she” in the Guidance, she’s referring to Viridi.

To be fair, it’s anyone’s guess how a potted murder flower chooses to identify itself...

 

[NeonNote]

Regarding and , who do you think their best/worst matchups are/will be as the meta progresses?

 

[trickroom]

PSA for anyone still unaware - Piranha Plant is not a “she”. When Palutena says “she” in the Guidance, she’s referring to Viridi.

To be fair, it’s anyone’s guess how a potted murder flower chooses to identify itself...

All German-language localization of the game refers to PP as a Kämpferin, meaning ‘fighter’ (female). The —in suffix is only used for female titles in German.

On an unrelated note, I personally am not sold on Chrom being better than Roy. Having forgiving spacing is nice for sure, but he has difficulties killing that Roy doesn’t have, and I think the amount of pressure and burst damage from Roy’s sweetspot gets more value than Chrom’s sword.

 

[The_Bookworm]

All German-language localization of the game refers to PP as a Kämpferin, meaning ‘fighter’ (female). The —in suffix is only used for female titles in German.

On an unrelated note, I personally am not sold on Chrom being better than Roy. Having forgiving spacing is nice for sure, but he has difficulties killing that Roy doesn’t have, and I think the amount of pressure and burst damage from Roy’s sweetspot gets more value than Chrom’s sword.

I don't remember Chrom having any difficulties KO'ing. He is strong in all parts of the blade.

 

[Henchwarrior]

Ness and Lucas are insane in Ultimate.

 

[Rizen]

I registered my game on time but parrana plant's not appearing for me do you have to unlock it?

Does "Shortened the landing time after using the move. " mean landing lag was reduced?

 

[Terotrous]

Despite not being listed, Dark Samus got the exact same buff as Samus for homing missiles.

/the one that edited that into the patch notes thread after verifying with several people

It's unfortunate, the logic of giving Samus some kind of exclusive buff to compensate slower rolls and higher hitboxes was very sound. Looks like I'm still stuck playing strictly better Samus even though I like the original a lot more.

In any case, I'm fairly satisfied with the patch overall. They didn't really make any huge moves, but their changes generally seem to be moving characters in the right direction, there's nothing super questionable like randomly nerfing low tiers or buffing top tier characters or anything.

My biggest disappointment is that with the attention they gave to bury they still didn't do anything for ROB, whose dthrow remains ridiculously sad. Maybe next patch?

 

[adom4]

I registered my game on time but parrana plant's not appearing for me do you have to unlock it?

Does "Shortened the landing time after using the move. " mean landing lag was reduced?

It means the autocancel was buffed.