Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[teddystalin]

All German-language localization of the game refers to PP as a Kämpferin, meaning ‘fighter’ (female). The —in suffix is only used for female titles in German.

Just to nip this line of reasoning in the bud (haha, plant humor), the gendered languages are all over the place on this one:
Spanish and German use feminine terms to refer to PP (luchadora and Kämpferin)
Dutch and French use masculine terms (vechter and combattant)
Russian uses боец, which is masculine but iirc doesn't have a feminine counterpart, unlike the above

As English has opted to use "it" for the in-game tooltips, let's not get so hung up on a localization issue, yeah?

Re: Piranha Plant impressions so I don't get a warning:

I like the character, but typically slower, heavier characters have certain band-aids that keep them competitively relevant - be it a big ol' projectile like Charge Shot so they can force approaches/whiff punish from a distance or terrifyingly high reward for when they do actually win neutral (like the entirety of Incineroar's kit). While Plant seems capable of bullying slow characters in neutral, I can see its gameplan falling apart against fast, high pressure top tiers. And with what seem to be its most optimal combos so far locked behind a DI-able dthrow and wonky landing uair, I'm not sure if its reward outside of ledgetrapping will be good enough to keep it in contention. But I'm having a lot of fun with it so far and I'd be happy to be wrong.

 

[Game7a1]

I don't think anyone expected Puff to get a large buff, but 12 -> 10 bair startup improvement is one of the best. The buffs to puff are being overhyped a tad, but it's still noteable and will hopefully attract some more attention to a character who is holding her own but is unhappy with the number of swords in the game.

I think the one thing I like about Puff's buffs (outside of B-air's better startup) is that they incentivize the use of overlooked moves (D-Tilt and Up-Smash; F-Tilt was kind of already being used a bit). They're not major, but they give her players some grounded options to consider in certain situations (like using D-Tilt instead of Down Smash or F-Tilt instead of Jab 1, for instance). The Up-Smash buff is actually quite significant in that it now deals consistent damage (at least from what I tested), so it's KO and combo finishing abilities got better as a result.

 

[DaddyMU]

How do you all think the buffs/nerfs will affect the non-buffed/nerfed characters? sorry if that makes no sense.

 

[Nobie]

It's very clear to me that players think of balance only in terms of wins and losses, while the developers think of balance in terms of quality of life for player and opponent.

A lot of the buffs and nerfs address things that are easy to flub or weakening things that so thoroughly shored up a weakness that it might as well not have counted: Teleports not snapping ledges, certain attacks being spammable at all percents, improved auto cancels, easier short hopping, etc.

But players almost inevitably see everything in an almost selfish manner. It's like when people say "I hope there are no major changes," what they actually mean is "No major changes for characters EXCEPT mine."

 

[Gleam]

I registered my game on time but parrana plant's not appearing for me do you have to unlock it?

Does "Shortened the landing time after using the move. " mean landing lag was reduced?

You should've gotten some kind of Code sent to whatever E-mail you have your account linked to which you would then have entered in, IIRC, the Nintendo Reward's Program. I'll admit I"m not sure about the finer details but if you bought the physical game, you went somewhere, got a code, entered it and once Plant was released it automatically came up.

Of course I remember it saying if you didn't register by Janurary 29th, it was too late so...

 

[Plain Yogurt]

Hello everyone! The Plant is here and I feel like contributing to that new hotness!

Ptooie: seems like a decent move with plenty of options, but MAN it’s clunky to use. I feel like if I don’t shoot it at the time that launches it the furthest then I’m using the move wrong. In reality, it has a few viable angles, can be canceled, and if the opponent rushes you the spike ball falls on their head. Neat, but unwieldy. Plus it stalls the Plant a little in the air!

Poison Breath: seems to be Plant’s neutral button. It’s got Charge Shot gimmicks, it does a lot of damage, it controls a space, and it even possibly has some smokescreen applications.

Piranhacopter: standard, solid recovery. Almost decent as an attack, but the finally hit happens before the Plant starts dropping, leaving plenty of time for punishing at lower percents. Can definitely see some nice carry-off shenanigans though.

Longstem Strike: another move that seems strong, but is a bit tricky to use. Does great damage along with it’s range, and specialists will be able to get the angles they want no problem. Have we confirmed where the armor is and what sort it is? It seems key to the plant’s disadvantage to an extent.

Other notes:
-aerials feel bare minimum, like “make them usable and not much else.”
-Between invincibility on up-tilt, up smash, and Longstem, as well as Ptooie shooting upwards, jumping in on the character too haphazardly seems like an even bigger mistake than it would be for other characters. Especially with how strong USmash is.
-FTilt has really underwhelming power, imo. Just seems like it should kill eventually.

Overall: it seems like if you can get used to its awkward, but strong specials, you’ve got yourself a solid trapping/juggling character. I personally feel atm that it has underwhelming normals besides its up attacks, though. Looking forward to seeing what work Plant Gang put into it!

 

[Rizen]

I got Plant downloaded.

Link's arrow speed was nerfed and if I'm not mistaken they added a white trail. This isn't big but makes arrows easier to react to.

 

[Rocketjay8]

Chromicide is still a thing, just can't do it on/ above stage.

alright i was scared since they said chrom's up b always KOs him first but it seems they just made it always KO chrom if he starts up b on/above the stage, he can still kill you first if you try to gimp him and get caught in his up b

PHEW that was scary we livin bois

— james (@Rivers3k) January 30, 2019

 

[The_Bookworm]

This is not competitive related, but there is a huge warning for those who value your save data:

Something similar happened with Mewtwo in SSB4 at initial release, so it should be patched soon.

 

[Thinkaman]

How do you all think the buffs/nerfs will affect the non-buffed/nerfed characters? sorry if that makes no sense.

This is always a good question to ask, but this patch is way too small and affects way too few characters (outside of the minor QoL aerial window tweaks) to have roster-wide implications worth talking about.

If like, 4 sword characters were heavily nerfed or something like that, we might be able to have a big ol' conversation. But 2 frames on a puff aerial and a haircut on paint roller doesn't give us much to talk about from this angle.


Edit: For context, Smash 4's first patch had significant, non-QoL changes on about 28 or so characters depending on who you count. That's about twice as many characters buffed/nerfed, in a game with 2/3rds the roster.

Don't let the big long list of ledge-grab tweaks fool you: This is a small, conservative patch.

 

[Y2Kay]

Gren lost Hydro Pump cancels on moving platforms and slopes. This only affects a couple of stages in a Hazards Off environment. It’s notable on Brawl Yoshi’s but doesn’t make much difference otherwise. It seems cancels on ledges and non-moving platforms are still in.

The Dsmash buff appears to make it easier for Gren to hit opponents hanging on the ledge but I have yet to verify with my own testing since I’m still using the old spacing. If true it’s a decent QoL buff, might lead to better 2-framing.

Overall nothing has really changed for Gren except on Brawl Yoshi’s where he’s worse, but I never liked that stage due to the slopes messing up shurikens anyhow. Hydro Pump cancels were never fully optimised so it’s a case of us never really knowing what we were missing, which I’m fine with.

Greninja's movement becomes noticeably better and unpredictable on YIB with that old glitch

you can see Venia utilize in game two of this set:

 

[J0eyboi]

Almost everything that edgeguards Chrom, reliably edgeguards Roy as well.

That's not even remotely true. Roy has way more viable recovery mix-ups, reducing the reliability of edgeguarding him with anything, and the hitbox on Blazer makes it extremely hard to contest. Against Roy, you're usually going to have to commit to covering an option to gimp him, which means he always has a chance to make it back. Against Chrom, you can safely gimp him on reaction in a huge number of situations. "Chrom's recovery isn't that much worse than Roy's" is a meme that needs to die; his recovery being worse is very relevant in multiple matchups.

 

[The_Bookworm]

That's not even remotely true. Roy has way more viable recovery mix-ups, reducing the reliability of edgeguarding him with anything, and the hitbox on Blazer makes it extremely hard to contest. Against Roy, you're usually going to have to commit to covering an option to gimp him, which means he always has a chance to make it back. Against Chrom, you can safely gimp him on reaction in a huge number of situations. "Chrom's recovery isn't that much worse than Roy's" is a meme that needs to die; his recovery being worse is very relevant in multiple matchups.

Well, I usually don't have difficulty edgeguarding Roy. I personally found it easier to contest with Blazer's hitbox more often than people says.

This is always a good question to ask, but this patch is way too small and affects way too few characters (outside of the minor QoL aerial window tweaks) to have roster-wide implications worth talking about.

If like, 4 sword characters were heavily nerfed or something like that, we might be able to have a big ol' conversation. But 2 frames on a puff aerial and a haircut on paint roller doesn't give us much to talk about from this angle.


Edit: For context, Smash 4's first patch had significant, non-QoL changes on about 28 or so characters depending on who you count. That's about twice as many characters buffed/nerfed, in a game with 2/3rds the roster.

Don't let the big long list of ledge-grab tweaks fool you: This is a small, conservative patch.

I do think some of the changes are somewhat significant to talk about. The biggest example is the Ice Climber AI change imo. There is a chance that this change might be the thing the Ice Climbers needs to be a much more consistent character, as this change implies that Nana's behavior is less brainless (and therefore, "fixed") than before.

I am curious on how this change will affect the ICs in competitive play, or maybe this change may end up being negligible.

 

[Foie]

I think the one thing I like about Puff's buffs (outside of B-air's better startup) is that they incentivize the use of overlooked moves (D-Tilt and Up-Smash; F-Tilt was kind of already being used a bit). They're not major, but they give her players some grounded options to consider in certain situations (like using D-Tilt instead of Down Smash or F-Tilt instead of Jab 1, for instance). The Up-Smash buff is actually quite significant in that it now deals consistent damage (at least from what I tested), so it's KO and combo finishing abilities got better as a result.

I agree. There seems to be a lot of hype surrounding puff but I really don't think the buffs move the needle much. The buff to bair is nice, but not as big as it could be because of the auto turnaround mechanic. The rest are just QoL changes that make her lackluster ground game a little less lackluster. Her weaknesses are still pretty much the same, rest still kills at 60+, and her options aren't dramatically improved.

Hopefully I'm proven wrong though, I love

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

An actual kinda big nerf in this relatively conservative patch is the reduction of K.Rool's Up B hitbox. Ness can now hit him with Dsmash hanging off the ledge which means plenty other characters can likely two frame him or even challenge it from below with a good Dair hitbox. It made an already exploitable recovery with its only real form of protection used to being coming straight up not possible anymore which is pretty hampering.

 

[meleebrawler]

It's very clear to me that players think of balance only in terms of wins and losses, while the developers think of balance in terms of quality of life for player and opponent.

A lot of the buffs and nerfs address things that are easy to flub or weakening things that so thoroughly shored up a weakness that it might as well not have counted: Teleports not snapping ledges, certain attacks being spammable at all percents, improved auto cancels, easier short hopping, etc.

But players almost inevitably see everything in an almost selfish manner. It's like when people say "I hope there are no major changes," what they actually mean is "No major changes for characters EXCEPT mine."

There's also a disturbing train of thought going around on how tier positions should determine who gets buffed or nerfed. Like would we still permit wobbling with Ice Climbers if they were low on lists?

 

[Rizen]

Plant's fun but can we talk about for a minute? Players like Sinji and Mogg are making him look good- the latter taking out top tiers like Seagull's Wolf and ZD's Fox. Pac's fruit speed increase helped tremendously. He quickly can whip out a bell (flan) or key. His frame data's great and so is his recovery. I'd place him at upper mid-tier. Don't sleep on this guy.

PS I know I'm late to the party.

 

[bc1910]

There's also a disturbing train of thought going around on how tier positions should determine who gets buffed or nerfed. Like would we still permit wobbling with Ice Climbers if they were low on lists?

A strat so blatantly broken like wobbling blurs the lines because ICs could never be low tier with it anyway.

Your point is valid though. Luigi’s 0-deaths are an example of something that there’s a strong argument for nerfing despite Luigi’s middle of the road status.

Tier positions should not be a determinant of who gets nerfed or buffed but they tend to correlate strongly with who should be.

 

[Heracr055]

Here lies a former post with incorrect Sheik stuff, corrected a few posts down (thanks J0eyboi)

Edit: Being able to actually edgeguard without dying is a great change for Incineroar, thanks to the Up B distance buff. For example, prior to the patch, Incineroar couldn't let go of ledge, bair and get back to the ledge iirc

 

[Ziodyne 21]

p q

Plant's fun but can we talk about for a minute? Players like Sinji and Mogg are making him look good- the latter taking out top tiers like Seagull's Wolf and ZD's Fox. Pac's fruit speed increase helped tremendously. He quickly can whip out a bell (flan) or key. His frame data's great and so is his recovery. I'd place him at upper mid-tier. Don't sleep on this guy.

PS I know I'm late to the party.

Then I guess I am too because I just have been watching those and other Pac matches and yea he denfinelty is looking pretty freaking good in thier hands. Think he could be upper-mid tier when all is said and done.

So Now you think is top tier now eh? So your joining that party.

Eh its all fun, you cant argue with Wolf's results and his strengths seem to best out his inital shortcomings

 

[J0eyboi]

I wanted to make a small contribution with respect to Sheik.
Apparently, according to Esam's video on the patch, "reduced vulnerability" means "less lag overall". What I think this means in terms of Sheik's Bouncing Fish is that lets you execute the move faster. I spent some time testing this last night and it feels like you can activate the kick part faster. Does that sound correct to you guys? (Feel free to correct me on this if you want). If this is true, then this can help Sheik with her offstage kills since you can activate this move quicker out of combos (the primary one I was testing was offstage needles->Bouncing Fish kills off the side)

BF wasn't changed, Grenade was.

Honestly, I think the best change for Sheik this patch is probably the Usmash sweetspot size increase, which could make Nair > Usmash more consistent.

A strat so blatantly broken like wobbling blurs the lines because ICs could never be low tier with it anyway.

I can think of 3 ways off the top of my head that ICs could be low tier or worse with wobbling.

1. Halve every one of their movement stats except short hop height
2. Make their grab frame 30
3. Give them S4 DDD landing lag, S4 Shulk ac windows, and S4 Palu endlag on everything

Sure, none of those things would ever happen, but those are extreme examples. Some combination of a worse grab, worse moves, and worse mobility could absolutely make ICs low tier with wobbling. You can't create a game plan out of fishing for grab if you have no way to scare your opponent into being grabbed.

 

[Rizen]

p q


Then I guess I am too because I just habe been watching those and other Pac matches and yea he denfinelty is looking pretty good in thier hands. Think he could be upper-mid tier when all is said and done.

So Now you think is top tier now eh? So your joining that party.

Eh its all fun, you cant argue with Wolf's results and his strengths seem to best out his inital shortcomings

Yeah for , he's not getting results: he's getting boatloads of results. Personally I think he's better in high tier but like you said, I can't argue with that.

 

[fozzy fosbourne]

Yeah for , he's not getting results: he's getting boatloads of results. Personally I think he's better in high tier but like you said, I can't argue with that.

He’s also really popular, too. It would be interesting to see how some results numbers of normalized based on usages but obviously that’s a tall order for anyone but Nintendo’s online stats people

 

[Kellojolly]

I'm curious as to how Lucario is now. I wanted to have a secondary and was thinking about him but something just feels off (outside of his floaty nature which I despise).

He’s also really popular, too. It would be interesting to see how some results numbers of normalized based on usages but obviously that’s a tall order for anyone but Nintendo’s online stats people

I wonder why he's so popular. I've never been a fan of the star fox series. Is Wolf a fan favorite from there?

 

[fozzy fosbourne]

On that note ..

Sakurai revealed character win-rate in newest Famitsu column, it's really surprising.

Period: Dec. 30 to Jan 5th
Highest char win-rate: 56.8%
Lowest: char 43.7%
K. Rool : 48.9% for ES, 51.9% for all match mode
Ganon: 47.9% for ES

Highest usage rate: Ganon for ES, Cloud for all

— Meshima (@Meshima_) January 31, 2019

Interestingly there is huge gap between Peach and Daisy in Elite Smash, whereas usage rate are almost same.
Peach win-rate: 54.4%
Daisy win-rate: 50.9%

— Meshima (@Meshima_) January 31, 2019

Here is the article https://nintendoeverything.com/saku...line-mode-victory-rates-character-usage-more/

“There was also a big difference in terms of character usage – the difference between the minimum and maximum was about 20-fold. Overall, the most used character was Cloud, but in terms of Elite Smash it was Ganondorf, whose Elite Smash win-rate was only around 47.9%, which is on the lower end of the rankings.”

For Shaya or whoever that was concerned about K Rool, there are some interesting things in there

So who is the 57% character???? Anyone that got adjusted in the recent patch, like K Rool did?

 

[Ziodyne 21]

On that note ..

Sakurai revealed character win-rate in newest Famitsu column, it's really surprising.

Period: Dec. 30 to Jan 5th
Highest char win-rate: 56.8%
Lowest: char 43.7%
K. Rool : 48.9% for ES, 51.9% for all match mode
Ganon: 47.9% for ES

Highest usage rate: Ganon for ES, Cloud for all

— Meshima (@Meshima_) January 31, 2019

Interestingly there is huge gap between Peach and Daisy in Elite Smash, whereas usage rate are almost same.
Peach win-rate: 54.4%
Daisy win-rate: 50.9%

— Meshima (@Meshima_) January 31, 2019

Here is the article https://nintendoeverything.com/saku...line-mode-victory-rates-character-usage-more/

“There was also a big difference in terms of character usage – the difference between the minimum and maximum was about 20-fold. Overall, the most used character was Cloud, but in terms of Elite Smash it was Ganondorf, whose Elite Smash win-rate was only around 47.9%, which is on the lower end of the rankings.”

For Shaya or whoever that was concerned about K Rool, there are some interesting things in there

I always wondered what makes Dorf so popular. I know he is popular in beginner/casual play and is a typical "scrub killer" character.. but all the way to ES? Is it just his raw power, or that he does well in laggy connections where it becomes hard to react and gaurd against most things..including his crazy strong but normally slow and telegraphed moves

 

[Cereal Bawks]

I always wondered what makes Dorf so popular. I know he is popular in beginner/casual play and is a typical "scrub killer" character.. but all the way to ES? Is it just his raw power, or that he does well in laggy connections where it becomes hard to react and gaurd against most things..including his crazy strong but normally slow and telegraphed moves

He makes people nervous because he's scary to fight, so it's easy to get stupid kills with him like random fsmashes. He's my go-to character when I feel like I don't want to try super hard for a win lol.

 

[Gleam]

As someone who likes to use Ganondorf, I think the popularity comes from two things.

1.) He's a simply easy character to utilize and doesn't require any technical means to know. You don't need to be complicated with Ganondorf to win and that can feel really good when using a character. The idea of a bait and punish character can at times feel very rewarding and with Ganondorf's obvious improvements from Smash4, it feels even better.

2.) Ganondorf's Reward System. Ganondorf is a character as already mentioned, who relies heavily on bait and punish and being defensive but unlike the past, Ganondorf is given much more reward when he succeeds. Getting Fsmash and Usmash off, getting Dairs and Fsmash's off. People who aren't used to fighting Ganon will easily find themselves getting hit or being edgedguard by Fsmash. It used to be said Ganon could kill in 2-3 moves and before, that didn't have much meaning. Now a days, that's true. Most of the cast can be killed around 70% with one good Fsmash and the range, power and mixup of that move can prove problematic to those who aren't aware.

However, as we can see, once Ganondorf gets into higher levels of play, he falls down fast. I've made this point before in an earlier page but Ganondorf still suffers a lot from inability to deal with projectiles, laggy attacks, easy combos and a very gimpable recovery. It's a lot like King K. Rool whose gimmicks and exploits can confuse and frustrate inexperienced players but those who do have experience won't find as much trouble.

Simply put, Ganondorf can feel very rewarding and without the need to over complicate the character IMO.

 

[The_Bookworm]

As someone who likes to use Ganondorf, I think the popularity comes from two things.

1.) He's a simply easy character to utilize and doesn't require any technical means to know. You don't need to be complicated with Ganondorf to win and that can feel really good when using a character. The idea of a bait and punish character can at times feel very rewarding and with Ganondorf's obvious improvements from Smash4, it feels even better.

2.) Ganondorf's Reward System. Ganondorf is a character as already mentioned, who relies heavily on bait and punish and being defensive but unlike the past, Ganondorf is given much more reward when he succeeds. Getting Fsmash and Usmash off, getting Dairs and Fsmash's off. People who aren't used to fighting Ganon will easily find themselves getting hit or being edgedguard by Fsmash. It used to be said Ganon could kill in 2-3 moves and before, that didn't have much meaning. Now a days, that's true. Most of the cast can be killed around 70% with one good Fsmash and the range, power and mixup of that move can prove problematic to those who aren't aware.

However, as we can see, once Ganondorf gets into higher levels of play, he falls down fast. I've made this point before in an earlier page but Ganondorf still suffers a lot from inability to deal with projectiles, laggy attacks, easy combos and a very gimpable recovery. It's a lot like King K. Rool whose gimmicks and exploits can confuse and frustrate inexperienced players but those who do have experience won't find as much trouble.

Simply put, Ganondorf can feel very rewarding and without the need to over complicate the character IMO.

Funny you guys say that. Some professional players actually have pretty high opinions on Ganondorf. Specifically, Dabuz, ZeRo, and Mew2King has high opinions on the character, with ZeRo calling Ganon potentially the best super heavyweight.

While I personally disagree, and I bet a lot of you think so too, but it is interesting to see optimism with this character among some of the top players.

 

[trickroom]

I always wondered what makes Dorf so popular. I know he is popular in beginner/casual play and is a typical "scrub killer" character.. but all the way to ES? Is it just his raw power, or that he does well in laggy connections where it becomes hard to react and gaurd against most things..including his crazy strong but normally slow and telegraphed moves

- He's flashy and popular/fun to watch due to le epic disrespect
- He is largely a fundamentals character, yet he still doesnt require a deep understanding of neutral to do well
- He is a 'new toy' with some of his attacks, especially the sword smash attacks which are a longstanding fan-service wish
- He is a scrub-killer, and--let's be honest--there are still scrubs well into Elite Smash
- As you mentioned, he profits off of the differences between wifi and real life

 

[Rizen]

He’s also really popular, too. It would be interesting to see how some results numbers of normalized based on usages but obviously that’s a tall order for anyone but Nintendo’s online stats people

I'm talking live tournament results, none of that online stuff.

 

[Gleam]

Funny you guys say that. Some professional players actually have pretty high opinions on Ganondorf. Specifically, Dabuz, ZeRo, and Mew2King has high opinions on the character, with ZeRo calling Ganon potentially the best super heavyweight.

While I personally disagree, and I bet a lot of you think so too, but it is interesting to see optimism with this character among some of the top players.

To be fair, I know a lot of that was done very early in the game and I wonder if they still have that same thoughts before. I could maybe understand Mid Tier only because Ganondorf has gotten some results. But if Ganondorf was this epic high tiered badass heavyweight, he's is not showing his results. I've said this before last time but it's like...

If Ganondorf is as good as people claim, with his popularity, he should be getting all kinds of Tournament placements and making 1st place runs anywhere from 1-5 times a week. You can't put the excuse that he's being slept on, he's one of the most popular characters and he's not difficult to use at all. There is no reason a "good" and "popular" character shouldn't be getting dozens upon dozens of good to great results each week.

Instead, Ganondorf falls hard compared to what his popularity showed him. He wasn't even able to get a decent placement in Gensis and he's hardly getting results. However, I say again, the feelings people like Zero and Dabuz had on Ganondorf were things I remembered much earlier in the game's development, and I'm pretty sure they had K. Rool pretty high too. I've known other top players who have definitely put Ganondorf much lower.

I have a feeling today, the consensus of Ganon wouldn't be as high as it was in the past.

 

[The_Bookworm]

To be fair, I know a lot of that was done very early in the game and I wonder if they still have that same thoughts before. I could maybe understand Mid Tier only because Ganondorf has gotten some results. But if Ganondorf was this epic high tiered badass heavyweight, he's is not showing his results. I've said this before last time but it's like...

If Ganondorf is as good as people claim, with his popularity, he should be getting all kinds of Tournament placements and making 1st place runs anywhere from 1-5 times a week. You can't put the excuse that he's being slept on, he's one of the most popular characters and he's not difficult to use at all. There is no reason a "good" and "popular" character shouldn't be getting dozens upon dozens of good to great results each week.

Instead, Ganondorf falls hard compared to what his popularity showed him. He wasn't even able to get a decent placement in Gensis and he's hardly getting results. However, I say again, the feelings people like Zero and Dabuz had on Ganondorf were things I remembered much earlier in the game's development, and I'm pretty sure they had K. Rool pretty high too. I've known other top players who have definitely put Ganondorf much lower.

I have a feeling today, the consensus of Ganon wouldn't be as high as it was in the past.

The thing is that their opinions on Ganondorf still remains high to this day. Dabuz's most recent tier list is recent enough, and the fact that ZeRo called Ganondorf potentially the best super-heavyweight actually came from his most recent video, where he reviews the 2.0.0 patch notes.

I am not saying that they are right, but once again, it is a very interesting trend I am seeing. It also interesting that, like what you said, that other professionals but him lowly as well. He is a really mixed bag in terms of views at the current moment.

It should also still be noted, and this also goes for pretty much every character in the game, is that this game's metagame still has barely any time to develop. It seems like it has developed more than it actually is, because social media and tournament scenes are bigger than in early SSB4. Results now could render absolutely useless in the future when determining a character placement.

 

[Browny]

You know, for all the jokes people made about Ike's nair centralising the character, I'd suggest go and watch some M2K bowser lately. Literally all he does is nair across the stage into fair and repeat until the enemy is at 100, then sideb and it works well.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

I wouldn't put too much stock into Quick Play rankings. Latency and motivation are big factors that can skew data. "Wifi Yoshi" wasn't a thing for no reason, characters can benefit a lot when inputs are delayed a frame or two, you get away with things that simply aren't true or possible normally and that will have an impact. Even though the overall wifi stability has improved even the smoothest of matches will still have occasional frame delays.

Motivation is also another big factor. Some people care about it but GSP isn't that great of a metric to measure skill and many people don't really care about it. There are no leaderboards or a way to see direct win loss ratios and compare them to others. It's not tournament so you aren't playing for a prize or a good placement so the motivation to play at 100% isn't there which impacts character scores. Also not all Elite Smash matches are tournament standard, plenty of people are playing 2v2s and FFAs with items and any stage and if that's being pulled into the data that also has an impact.

Interesting nonetheless but compared to actual tournaments data, meh.

 

[Tri Knight]

You know, for all the jokes people made about Ike's nair centralising the character, I'd suggest go and watch some M2K bowser lately. Literally all he does is nair across the stage into fair and repeat until the enemy is at 100, then sideb and it works well.

Funny, add in retreating tilts and jabs and that's exactly how I play Bowser too.

 

[MG_3989]

I wouldn't put too much stock into Quick Play rankings. Latency and motivation are big factors that can skew data. "Wifi Yoshi" wasn't a thing for no reason, characters can benefit a lot when inputs are delayed a frame or two, you get away with things that simply aren't true or possible normally and that will have an impact. Even though the overall wifi stability has improved even the smoothest of matches will still have occasional frame delays.

Motivation is also another big factor. Some people care about it but GSP isn't that great of a metric to measure skill and many people don't really care about it. There are no leaderboards or a way to see direct win loss ratios and compare them to others. It's not tournament so you aren't playing for a prize or a good placement so the motivation to play at 100% isn't there which impacts character scores. Also not all Elite Smash matches are tournament standard, plenty of people are playing 2v2s and FFAs with items and any stage and if that's being pulled into the data that also has an impact.

Interesting nonetheless but compared to actual tournaments data, meh.

I think you hit the nail on the head here. If they have set tournament rules and maybe sometype of prize and rank incentive in elite smash I wonder if that would make online data more accurate. Increasing motivation would do a ton and I know I would probably mess around/zone out less if there was an incentive. Obviously it’s never going to be 100% because of lag and dropped frames which are unavoidable but maybe at least a little more accurate. I’m sure there are some really really good players playing online who may be using a character in a way people haven’t realized they can be used yet who just don’t go to tournaments and it would be nice if players like that would be able to stand out

Also has anyone else noticed that match load times and lag has been seriously reduced since 2.0 or is it just me? Like now rematch’s happen right away and you don’t have to wait the full 30 second timer anymore. They didn’t make all the online changes I wanted but it looks like a step in the right direction. I don’t have a big enough sample size yet to see if I’m getting my ruleset at a more consistent rate (was never a HUGE problem for me like others have said it was) but I’m willing to bet that’s a little better too

 

[fozzy fosbourne]

I wouldn't put too much stock into Quick Play rankings. Latency and motivation are big factors that can skew data. "Wifi Yoshi" wasn't a thing for no reason, characters can benefit a lot when inputs are delayed a frame or two, you get away with things that simply aren't true or possible normally and that will have an impact. Even though the overall wifi stability has improved even the smoothest of matches will still have occasional frame delays.

Motivation is also another big factor. Some people care about it but GSP isn't that great of a metric to measure skill and many people don't really care about it. There are no leaderboards or a way to see direct win loss ratios and compare them to others. It's not tournament so you aren't playing for a prize or a good placement so the motivation to play at 100% isn't there which impacts character scores. Also not all Elite Smash matches are tournament standard, plenty of people are playing 2v2s and FFAs with items and any stage and if that's being pulled into the data that also has an impact.

Interesting nonetheless but compared to actual tournaments data, meh.

I agree but it looks like the balance team is paying attention to the online results so it's still interesting when trying to understand their motivations.

 

[The_Bookworm]

So I checked some YouTube comments and videos. Oh boy, is Chrombo's nerf exaggerated everywhere. People are saying that the Chrombo itself is gone (even in the BSD video where is specifically shows that the suicide combo still exists lol), and ZeRo went as far to say that this change single-handily brought Chrom down a tier. Granted that ZeRo didn't really understood what really changed about Chrom's up B (still KOs at 0% and still can reliably combo into it). It will take about a few days, maybe a week, before everyone realizes, "Oh, it still exists. It is simply more risky if Chrom is at last stock, but practically nothing has changed."


It does raise the question: how well does people value seemingly silly stuff?

Earlier in this comment thread, some people has said that Brawl ICs without infinite grab combos is mediocre at best. However, early Brawl tier lists has kind of proven otherwise, as the ICs were in the high tiers, approaching top tier, before the infinite grab combos were discovered and applied. Another example is that when SSB4 Bayo's guaranteed 0-death combos were removed thanks to 1.1.6, people went as far as to put her as mid tier at best. In the end, the adoption of a more creative playstyle paved the way for her to regain the throne more than a year after the nerf. People saw the nerfs to Samus' dash attack and Shinespark jank kills enough to override her significant buffs from SSB4, but that also ended up being untrue. People saw the nerf to Bowser up throw.... I think I have made my point.

 

[ZephyrZ]

I wonder why he's so popular. I've never been a fan of the star fox series. Is Wolf a fan favorite from there?

He's popular, as rival characters tend to be. However I think the reason he's popular in Smash has more to do with how he controls and plays. His amazing air mobility, great aerials and strong, straightfoward zoning tool make him both a satisfying character to play and a very easy character to pick up. Even I've got a little bit of pocket Wolf just from how much I gravitate towards him when goofing around.