Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

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Anyways not related to link but I did see you talking about mii swordfighter in a post mentioning gale strike being overrated and I will fully agree on it. It's generally much better when the opponent is clueless about it, but when people actually learn to play around it the moves much harder to land and I think his players will probably have to learn how to actually play the game instead of relying on gale strike hitting and getting them easy kills.
This is what I think as well. It's really good the first few times you face someone, but people catch on quickly, which makes me think the character has somewhat limited viability at higher levels. Chakram is a good projectile though, and Mii Swordfighter does have some other good things (and Gale Strike will net you some kills once in a while, even against good players), so I think the character will end up as a mid tier (that few people will play because it's a Mii).
 

KamikazePotato

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MKLeo's matches he lost showed the issues with Ike that exist and always will exist - he has no answer to characters that quickly get in his face and spam sub-10 frame normals. Doesn't help that Palutena has a bunch of tools to edgeguard him.
 
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Out of Leo's mains, I wonder who would've doe better against Nairo's. Ike was just not doing well.
well Cloud vs Palu? hmm I can imagine she can edgegaurd him pretty hard , even harder than Ike. It can also be hard for Palu once Cloud gets his advantage going though
 
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Well, I am back after many months of stagnation after Smash 4 Evo!

I got to say, I am happy to be back again and I am excited to spectate Ultimate tournies (Alongside Melee)! This game is a better improvement than Smash 4!

I hope Ultimate will have a great future!

Also, I feel Fox/Ness now in Ultimate and after labbing with Fox multiple times in Ultimate, my perspective with him dramatically improves.

Fox is still top tier after Smash 4? Yessh
 
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MG_3989

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Well, I am back after many months of stagnation after Smash 4 Evo!

I got to say, I am happy to be back again and I am excited to spectate Ultimate tournies (Alongside Melee)! This game is a better improvement than Smash 4!

I hope Ultimate will have a great future!

Also, I feel Fox/Ness now in Ultimate and after labbing with Fox multiple times in Ultimate, my perspective with him dramatically improves.

Fox is top tier my boys!
Right now you can’t go wrong with a Fox/Ness lineup. They’re both high tier characters currently who are doing work in tournaments and don’t show indications of dropping off. I think they’re definitely a good mixup of styles too (even though they’re both patient aggro rushdown they accomplish it in different ways)
 
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Nairo exposes theae fox players recovery. First ZD now kight (hr had did good exploiting Ike's poor recovery. Look forward to Grands going to be a bit difficult to edgeguard Wario although tweek did diee at some strange moments vs light.
 

The_Bookworm

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At the end of the tamim vs MkLeo set (a massacre to say the least), Coney pretty much summed up Ultimate Bayo in the current moment: comparing her Melee G&W in terms of functioning properly.
 

trickroom

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One thing about Wario i'm noticing is that he has a really easy time landing compared to a lot of characters. Normal ones, when they recover, always have to snap to ledge and pick an option, but Wario sometimes violates the whole process by just biking right through the skybox and hopping out with a decent chunk of the stage to control. Also, Wario's upair man. That move is something else.
 
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Kellojolly

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With the tournament, I wonder what there top tier will look like (aka opinions) especially in the eyes of the pros. Wario in Tweek's hands did extremely well. But that's it, it was Tweek. I don't think the top tier in many's eyes will change much. Honestly, I think Ike's stock will fall as Ike's weakness was shown today. I also think Link's hype will die down quite a bit from Salem's performance today. Link is good but I really think he's supposed to be played along with something like YL.

I am also happy to see Fox putting in work.
 
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That's quite the impressive spread of characters. 20 different characters in the top 16, only one appearing more than once. Got heavies and lightweights, swordies are there but not dominating. Not a single Peach/Daisy in sight in the top 16. Random Bayo out of nowhere along with a random Falcon. Mewtwo proving he's not as dead as his SSB4 mains sometimes think.

I'd say between Glitch and some of the other larger tournaments we can roughly figure out who's probably going to make up top and high tier for at least the first go around (alphabetical order): :ultcloud::ultdk::ultfox::ultike::ultinkling::ultlucina::ultness::ultolimar::ultpalutena::ultpeach:/:ultdaisy::ultpichu::ultpikachu::ultrob::ultchrom::ultsnake::ultwario::ultwolf: with :ultgreninja::ultlink::ultmarth::ultmegaman::ultmewtwo::ultpokemontrainer::ultroy::ultshulk::ultsimon:/:ultrichter::ultsonic::ulttoonlink::ultyounglink: all being maybes (Some only maybe due to a lack of dedicated high level reps, some due to inconsistent results but having very good spikes). That's slightly more than 1/3 of the cast, and I haven't gone into potential sleepers show could prove themselves between now and then like :ultyoshi: or :ultridley:. Pretty good so far.
 
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They’re both high tier characters currently who are doing work in tournaments and don’t show indications of dropping off.
Fox is likely top tier, and while Ness could be high tier he also could be high-mid. In Smash 4, Ness struggled quite a bit vs swords, and while those matchups seem to have gotten easier for him they seem to be far from easy. It's possible that he's going to end up in high tier, although I'd be reluctant to say that he definitely is.

That's quite the impressive spread of characters.
Yeah, but this is also a new game and the meta hasn't settled yet. Remember how long it took for Bayonetta to really dominate Smash 4? Took quite some time (with many people saying things like "She's not even getting top 8 at majors, she's not the best!"). It's pretty obvious that we don't have an obvious #1 character right now at least, though time will tell how balanced the game actually is.
 

trickroom

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mewtwo!!! isnt!!!! midtier!!!!!! you can see it right there! this character still has tons of tools! nair is amazing for shutting down aerial approaches. fair is as broken as ever. shadow ball is as broken as ever. dtilt still combos if you get the hitbox close to mewtwo's body. ftilt is a great boxing tool, spacing tool, kill move near the edge. uthrow kills arent as good as they were, but still very good. the hitbox on mewtwo's usmash is extremely forgiving on grounded opponents and has turned it into a very solid move.

9th at a major is all you need to know.
 

Spinosaurus

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I think it's worth pointing out that Wario started off strong in both Brawl and Smash 4 and dropped overtime. He's historically been better in the early meta and I expect that to be the case again too.

Buuut I think he'll stay relevant, waft's too strong of a win condition and it's on a better character now, and I don't see any mechanics getting in the way this time.
 
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Yeah, but this is also a new game and the meta hasn't settled yet. Remember how long it took for Bayonetta to really dominate Smash 4? Took quite some time (with many people saying things like "She's not even getting top 8 at majors, she's not the best!"). It's pretty obvious that we don't have an obvious #1 character right now at least, though time will tell how balanced the game actually is.
Oh I'm well aware. I'm talking for the current metagame. Unlike say early SSB4 where it was a whole lot of Diddy and Luigi pretty early. Or Brawl where it was MK, Snake, and D3 everywhere quickly. But 20/75 characters showing up in the top 16 of a 551 man tournament? Pretty hopeful looking for at least the short term.
 

Yonder

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It's a damn good argument for that opinion, yes.
Consistentcy is key. Was Link high tier in 4 because T took 3rd at a major once? They need more established, ongoing wins.

And the Bayo main did apparently have an easier bracket according to people...
 
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I think it's worth pointing out that Wario started off strong in both Brawl and Smash 4 and dropped overtime. He's historically been better in the early meta and I expect that to be the case again too.

Buuut I think he'll stay relevant, waft's too strong of a win condition and it's on a better character now, and I don't see any mechanics getting in the way this time.

Wario wasn't really strong in sm4sh. In brawl he did start strong however grab release was too much for him to overcome. Also the prevalent characters were swordies. This game meta is shaping up different and Wario doesn't have to worry about grab release non sense. He also has a better combo game and he seems to have all the tools.
 

TurboLink

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Yeah I'm not sure how much I agree with Salem's opinion that Link is better than Inkling. The fact that he only won his fifth game against a less-than-optimal Cosmos with a lucky hit was sort of telling.

Link also seems to have a garbagio matchup against Fox. Salem had to switch off to ZSS when he went up against Light.
I don't know about Link being better than Inkling but Inkling having a favorable matchup against Link would not necessarily mean Inkling is better. As I recall Kirby had a workable matchup with Sheik in Smash 4 but I doubt anyone would claim Kirby was better than Sheik.
 

Nobie

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The big thing about SDX getting 9th at Glitch 6 going solo Mewtwo is that there is literally no other big Mewtwo mains playing the character right now.

It'd be one thing if there was an army of strong Mewtwos but all of them drowned in pools except SDX, but the fact that a character as relatively weak to getting janked or steamrolled by momentum as Mewtwo actually made it that far shows promise. SDX was also gradually learning the matchups he lost in over the course of each set, but wasn't able to fully adapt in time. That in itself is a weakness of Mewtwo, though (less room to make mistakes).

Unrelated, I've been just brainstorming with Ryu lately, and I'd like to get thoughts from people who actually know the character well.

1) I feel like Ryu players I've seen only throw Hadokens pretty sparsely, when I think they could be much more important to how the character plays. Smash is different than SF with double jumps and platforms and all that, but it's an 11% damage projectile that comes out frame 13 (faster than Mario's fireball). It won't get any kills, and on paper it seems trivial to avoid or block, but I think fireball pressure is at least somewhat real in Ultimate.

2) How common is it for Ryu players to use the non-true Shoryuken as an OoS option?

3) I noticed that you can cancel backdash sooner than the animation lets on by doing non-true specials (except for Focus Attack). If you back dash and then immediately buffer Up B, Ryu moves only the slightest bit back and then throws the uppercut out. Is this something that's practical in a footsies/whiff punish scenario, or would it be better to just Shoryuken them anyway?
 

TurboLink

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1) I feel like Ryu players I've seen only throw Hadokens pretty sparsely, when I think they could be much more important to how the character plays. Smash is different than SF with double jumps and platforms and all that, but it's an 11% damage projectile that comes out frame 13 (faster than Mario's fireball). It won't get any kills, and on paper it seems trivial to avoid or block, but I think fireball pressure is at least somewhat real in Ultimate.
Mario's fireball has less end lag and can be approached better with due to Mario's less committal jump and better air mobility.
 

Nobie

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Mario's fireball has less end lag and can be approached better with due to Mario's less committal jump and better air mobility.
This is all true, but I'm not talking about Ryu's fireball as an approach tool, I'm talking about it as an "I'm gonna get bits of damage off of these and approach when I feel like it."

The normal Hadoken even pushes opponents back along the ground, like in the Street Fighter II games. It seems less designed for approach and more for either creating distance or forcing approaches.
 

trickroom

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Wario wasn't really strong in sm4sh. In brawl he did start strong however grab release was too much for him to overcome. Also the prevalent characters were swordies. This game meta is shaping up different and Wario doesn't have to worry about grab release non sense. He also has a better combo game and he seems to have all the tools.
There was a time when he was considered pretty strong, bolstered by Abadango and Tweek's results with the character at the time. See SKTAR 4 and EVO 2015. It was before the 4BR made tier lists (and before there was a Cloud to render him useless), but he was considered high tier by many iirc.
 
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Emblem Lord

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The big thing about SDX getting 9th at Glitch 6 going solo Mewtwo is that there is literally no other big Mewtwo mains playing the character right now.

It'd be one thing if there was an army of strong Mewtwos but all of them drowned in pools except SDX, but the fact that a character as relatively weak to getting janked or steamrolled by momentum as Mewtwo actually made it that far shows promise. SDX was also gradually learning the matchups he lost in over the course of each set, but wasn't able to fully adapt in time. That in itself is a weakness of Mewtwo, though (less room to make mistakes).

Unrelated, I've been just brainstorming with Ryu lately, and I'd like to get thoughts from people who actually know the character well.

1) I feel like Ryu players I've seen only throw Hadokens pretty sparsely, when I think they could be much more important to how the character plays. Smash is different than SF with double jumps and platforms and all that, but it's an 11% damage projectile that comes out frame 13 (faster than Mario's fireball). It won't get any kills, and on paper it seems trivial to avoid or block, but I think fireball pressure is at least somewhat real in Ultimate.

2) How common is it for Ryu players to use the non-true Shoryuken as an OoS option?

3) I noticed that you can cancel backdash sooner than the animation lets on by doing non-true specials (except for Focus Attack). If you back dash and then immediately buffer Up B, Ryu moves only the slightest bit back and then throws the uppercut out. Is this something that's practical in a footsies/whiff punish scenario, or would it be better to just Shoryuken them anyway?
Why all this interest in Ryu?

Ironic coming from a MM player imo.
 

Captain Sa10

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I think this win for Wario is really just another showing that out of the 70+ characters, once again, no one truly knows who’s going to be where.

for instance, wolf has had a high surgence of usage because of his current results. And while I love the character, he didn’t show in the top 16. Does that disqualify him from being a strong pick? Not at all and arguably means that other characters can obviously be just as consistent with proper time and training put into them(I expect to see a surge of wario’s soon as well).

This also goes to show that players in this game, currently, struggle with actually placing anything correctly on any tier list(I’m feeling shades of Marvel here-because let’s be honest this is the biggest smash game in terms of roster SO FAR). Leffen, while I truly enjoy him, is living proof of constantly swaying back and forth on his opinions(nothing is concrete yet).

Tweek did play excellently, but I would have to agree with him that Leffen is jumping the gun. Proof in this alone with the Ike matchup(and while Ike does have various other tools I’m glad people adapted/learned how to punish-aka nothing needs to be nerfed on any character right now).
 
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J0eyboi

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I was planning to make this big post about why I think Mewtwo isn't particularly good, but it was taking too long to research and this thread is moving too fast so instead, I'm just going to say that the nerfs to Mewtwo's advantage and disadvantage hurt much, much more than the negligible nerfs to his neutral, and I don't know why people constantly seem to defend the latter while ignoring the former two as if it was actually the point of contention. Anyway.

1) I feel like Ryu players I've seen only throw Hadokens pretty sparsely, when I think they could be much more important to how the character plays. Smash is different than SF with double jumps and platforms and all that, but it's an 11% damage projectile that comes out frame 13 (faster than Mario's fireball). It won't get any kills, and on paper it seems trivial to avoid or block, but I think fireball pressure is at least somewhat real in Ultimate.
Mario's fireball isn't a great comparison. It has different properties and a different trajectory. A much better comparison would be Wolf's Blaster. As far as frame data and damage and such go, they're not too different, but Wolf's has two crucial factors that make it a much better projectile. For one, Wolf's travels much faster. As neither really has the frame data to make them useful approach tools, a faster travel time is definitely preferable. However, the bigger thing that makes Wolf's Blaster good while Hadoken isn't is that, despite how they worked in the game which at least one of the two shotos was based off of, fireballs aren't transcendent while blaster shots are. This makes it way harder to approach through a laser wall, as with Ryu, you can use an aerial to destroy the fireball while approaching, while with Wolf, you have to commit to a fullhop or defensive option to get around it in most situations.
 
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Illusion.

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This whole "Bayonetta is bad/doesn't function properly" because she can't carry people to the blastzone anymore (while still doing 40%+) is hilarious to me.

It's a new game, you can't expect things to work exactly the same anymore. Just because your character is actually playing by the rules of the game now doesn't mean your character is bad.
 
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Ffamran

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Mario's fireball isn't a great comparison. It has different properties and a different trajectory. A much better comparison would be Wolf's Blaster. As far as frame data and damage and such go, they're not too different, but Wolf's has two crucial factors that make it a much better projectile. For one, Wolf's travels much faster. As neither really has the frame data to make them useful approach tools, a faster travel time is definitely preferable. However, the bigger thing that makes Wolf's Blaster good while Hadoken isn't is that, despite how they worked in the game which at least one of the two shotos was based off of, fireballs aren't transcendent while blaster shots are. This makes it way harder to approach through a laser wall, as with Ryu, you can use an aerial to destroy the fireball while approaching, while with Wolf, you have to commit to a fullhop or defensive option to get around it in most situations.
Unless they changed it in Ultimate for some reason, you can vary the travel speed of Hadouken which was among other Ryu things, something they explicitly pointed out you could do when they introduced him for Smash 4: https://youtu.be/Jwr3a5a_XFg?t=76. Ryu also has Shakunetsu Hadouken as another projectile option. Now, how fast HP Hadouken travels compared to Wolf's Blaster's lasers, I don't know.
 
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There was a time when he was considered pretty strong, bolstered by Abadango and Tweek's results with the character at the time. See SKTAR 4 and EVO 2015. It was before the 4BR made tier lists (and before there was a Cloud to render him useless), but he was considered high tier by many iirc.
Yeah but that wasn't early sm4sh and it's not like tweek's results or abadango were them taking advantage of early metas both switched from their initial mains.

Why all this interest in Ryu?

Ironic coming from a MM player imo.
Maybe he wants a real shoryuken.



Also I may have to retract what I said about m2 SDX really showed a lot with the character. Oh well still don't see him being better than mid tier.
 
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Goodstyle_4

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Couple of thoughts about Glitch:

1. Where is Chrom? What happened to him? Tweek had an excellent Chrom in the past, but now his secondary seems to be YL.

2. Tweek is right about Wario being low-high at best. He's got significant weaknesses that are being covered up by his general skill. For example Lucina is a bad match up for Wario, Tweek is just making it look good. That said, while I think he'll drop in effectiveness, I don't think it'll be to the extent of Smash 4. He's definitely a good character now, even if he isn't top 10 or something.

3. Fox is a top 5 character for sure. There's no denying it anymore.
 
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Rizen

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Couple of thoughts about Glitch:

1. Where is Chrom? What happened to him? Tweek had an excellent Chrom in the past, but now his secondary seems to be YL.

2. Tweek is right about Wario being low-high at best. He's got significant weaknesses that are being covered up by his general skill. For example Lucina is a bad match up for Wario, Tweek is just making it look good. That said, while I think he'll drop in effectiveness, I don't think it'll be to the extent of Smash 4. He's definitely a good character now, even if he isn't top 10 or something.

3. Fox is a top 5 character for sure. There's no denying it anymore.
IDK about Tweek's Chrom but Shoyo James used him to get 13th.

I have Wario at the top of high tier but not top tier. Tweek vs Nairo showed Wario can hold his own against swords. If it had been someone else I'd agree but it's not like Nairo was a mediocre Lucina. Wario's great at weaving in and out, he lives to 150%+ then kills with waft, which has setups, at 70%. Several other warios placed in the top 64 like Reflex wonder.
It's interesting Tweek uses YL to cover Wario's bad MUs. In terms of playstyles they make a good pairing. In terms of MUs I'm not sure YL beats Lucina but it worked out for Tweek (IMO he does beat ROB).

For sure, Fox is amazing.
 
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