Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

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Something Glitch 6 showed is the need for secondaries. We saw several top players switch off their character, even if they didn't take games with the secondary. Leo went from Ike to Cloud, Salem switched off Link to ZSS and Ganon for the Fox MU, Tweek used YL to cover Wario's bad MUs, Nairo had a Lucina and Palutena, etc.
And there's nothing wrong with that. In fact, I'm hoping there wont be any characters that are so severely oppressive that the players wont feel the need to switch off of them.

I always like the idea of even the best characters having some bad MU's with characters who are perceived lower.

I think high level players should have back up/secondaries. Makes sets more interesting.
 
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Rizen

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Wolf because of Zackray.

Some characters benefit more from secondaries than others. Link is, presumably, not a top tier, and thus might have some bad MUs (potentially Fox?), though the Ganondorf pick seemed pretty sketchy to me. As for Tweek and MkLeo, it's already been established that they are capable of playing multiple characters and will switch based on what they feel like playing rather than strictly MU-based, we saw this happen in Smash 4 too. Oh, same with Nairo, he played multiple characters in Smash 4 too.

Unless your character has -2 MUs, you don't need a secondary (and -2 MUs are still winnable anyway, though it's hard). While some players used secondaries, many didn't (reminder that ZeRo mostly played Diddy Kong at the end of Smash 4 and still won quite often).
"Needs" was a strong word but I do think most characters benefit from a secondary. Tweek switched off Wario for bad MUs and Leo was forced off Ike, who he played the whole time.
IMO Salem was outplaying ZD and less-so light but Fox is a bad MU. IDK what the Ganon CP was about, lol. He seemed at a loss for what to do. It wouldn't surprise me to see Salem pick up a secondary for Link's bad MUs vs fast critters in the future.
 

Kellojolly

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Wolf because of Zackray.

Some characters benefit more from secondaries than others. Link is, presumably, not a top tier, and thus might have some bad MUs (potentially Fox?), though the Ganondorf pick seemed pretty sketchy to me. As for Tweek and MkLeo, it's already been established that they are capable of playing multiple characters and will switch based on what they feel like playing rather than strictly MU-based, we saw this happen in Smash 4 too. Oh, same with Nairo, he played multiple characters in Smash 4 too.

Unless your character has -2 MUs, you don't need a secondary (and -2 MUs are still winnable anyway, though it's hard). While some players used secondaries, many didn't (reminder that ZeRo mostly played Diddy Kong at the end of Smash 4 and still won quite often).
I was talking about glitch 6. I don't believe wolf is one of the rosters that will rise in stock because of Glitch 6 results. Wolf just didn't put out much showing for that.
 
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Wolf because of Zackray.

Some characters benefit more from secondaries than others. Link is, presumably, not a top tier, and thus might have some bad MUs (potentially Fox?), though the Ganondorf pick seemed pretty sketchy to me. As for Tweek and MkLeo, it's already been established that they are capable of playing multiple characters and will switch based on what they feel like playing rather than strictly MU-based, we saw this happen in Smash 4 too. Oh, same with Nairo, he played multiple characters in Smash 4 too.

Unless your character has -2 MUs, you don't need a secondary (and -2 MUs are still winnable anyway, though it's hard). While some players used secondaries, many didn't (reminder that ZeRo mostly played Diddy Kong at the end of Smash 4 and still won quite often).
I’m not sure why you think you can throw out Tweek and MKLeo as “established” players of multiple characters, and discount Salem, of all people. I realize you are trying to make the point that Link is less deserving of his “top tier” promotion, but the argument you are making is essentially a massive case of special pleading.

Is Link top tier? I doubt it. But the argument against him isn’t made just because Salem switched to someone else, when literally everyone else switched off their “top tier” character, too.


I think the most interesting counter pick I've seen so far was ESAMs Samus vs MVDs snake. They're both evenly matched and obviously play/practice together a lot. Yet ESAM completely ran over his snake with a character that hasn't got good reviews so far.
Yeah, Samus is a good character. Charge shot is basically Yomi: the Button. Sheiks in Smash 4 needle canceled the hell out of people into grabs and panic all the time.

Now, take that ankle snapping fun, and add the ability to kill you at 80.

Oh, and she can cancel it into anything.

And she still has combos.

And a dumb strong Nair.

And a really good OOS Up-B.

And she’s a monster at the ledge.

Yeah, low tier. Ofc.
 

fozzy fosbourne

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Some characters benefit more from secondaries than others. Link is, presumably, not a top tier, and thus might have some bad MUs (potentially Fox?), though the Ganondorf pick seemed pretty sketchy to me. As for Tweek and MkLeo, it's already been established that they are capable of playing multiple characters and will switch based on what they feel like playing rather than strictly MU-based, we saw this happen in Smash 4 too. Oh, same with Nairo, he played multiple characters in Smash 4 too.

Unless your character has -2 MUs, you don't need a secondary (and -2 MUs are still winnable anyway, though it's hard). While some players used secondaries, many didn't (reminder that ZeRo mostly played Diddy Kong at the end of Smash 4 and still won quite often).
It’s interesting that arguably the best players in the world right now play at least 2 characters at a very high level. In the smash community I commonly see a theory that if you play 2 characters you split your training in half and will limit your potential. This claim has always felt a little bro-science or pre-moneyball-baseball to me; it’s not really evidence based and just speculation.

Tweek claims he picked up his young link in 3 days!

(I do think it’s important when you are learning a game tho to limit your scope and options).

edit: to be clear, I'm not saying that it's not true, just that the evidence is all over the place and so I think some skepticism of conventional wisdom is healthy here
 
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"Needs" was a strong word but I do think most characters benefit from a secondary.
In theory, yes. The issue is that you, the player, have to split your time and energy between multiple characters. If you have 100 hours to practice per month, it might be better to spend 100 hours on your main instead of 70 on your main and 30 on a secondary, so picking up a secondary isn't always beneficial. Top players, on the other hand, seem to spend 150-200+ hours every month or something like that (though a good amount of that is messing around while streaming), so it's easier to be good with multiple characters for them.

I’m not sure why you think you can throw out Tweek and MKLeo as “established” players of multiple characters, and discount Salem, of all people.
Salem mostly played Bayonetta in Smash 4? He also had a Greninja but he didn't really use it much, he was basically a Bayonetta solo main and still did incredibly well.

I was talking about glitch 6.
I guess Wario being a potential top tier is more likely because of Glitch 6, and Bayonetta is likely mid tier (good enough to top 8 a major, bad enough to have significant flaws).
 

J0eyboi

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Salem mostly played Bayonetta in Smash 4? He also had a Greninja but he didn't really use it much, he was basically a Bayonetta solo main and still did incredibly well.
In this game, he has a lot more secondaries. In addition to still playing Bayo at least some amount, he's also got a Greninja, a Ganon, and a Shulk, at the very least. When he switched off Link at Glitch, he cycled through at least 3 characters before landing on Ganon.
 
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You know, its been 2017 since we have the last Smash 4 tier list.

I still do not get why there is no official final tier list for Smash 4 yet. The meta has changed from 2018, I am suprised that a new tier list was never made before or after Ultimate's release!
 
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In this game, he has a lot more secondaries. In addition to still playing Bayo at least some amount, he's also got a Greninja, a Ganon, and a Shulk, at the very least. When he switched off Link at Glitch, he cycled through at least 3 characters before landing on Ganon.
That's cool, but it hasn't been established that he can play multiple characters at a top level yet. Tweek, MkLeo, Nairo? Absolutely (Komorikiri as well, with mainly Cloud/Sonic). Early meta is early meta, if Salem still plays 3-4 characters in 6 month and does well then we'll talk (he might be able to do it though, we'll see).

You know, its been 2017 when we have the last Smash 4 tier list, I dunno why there is no official final tier list for Smash 4 yet.
I doubt there'll be any at this point.
 

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You know, its been 2017 since we have the last Smash 4 tier list.

I still do not get why there is no official final tier list for Smash 4 yet. The meta has changed from 2018, I am suprised that a new tier list was never made before or after Ultimate's release!
I doubt there'd be much value releasing a tier list for that game now other than to just correct the placings for certain characters (Greninja for e.g.). Most players have already moved on to Ultimate, with Smash4 barely played now.

Also generally the Wii U is dead, the only game that I frequently still see on Twitch is Mario Maker. But I digress.
 
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Kellojolly

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I would like to put out one character that's not been discussed is Shulk. Shulk lacks presence in the competitive scene aside from his dedicated mains (i.e. Some and Nicko). His dedicated mains aren't some top 10 pros that the general population follows and worships. Admittedly, I am skeptical of him, largely because of his poor start-up time. But I won't deny that he may have very high potentials to be amazing. To those that have high-tier experience with him, what are your thoughts regarding Shulk? His Nair into Bair seems amazing also (met some Shulk player that kept spamming this and it reminded me of Ike for some reason).
 

Rizen

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In theory, yes. The issue is that you, the player, have to split your time and energy between multiple characters. If you have 100 hours to practice per month, it might be better to spend 100 hours on your main instead of 70 on your main and 30 on a secondary, so picking up a secondary isn't always beneficial. Top players, on the other hand, seem to spend 150-200+ hours every month or something like that (though a good amount of that is messing around while streaming), so it's easier to be good with multiple characters for them.
I know what you mean. Initially I was going to co-main Link and YL. During a weekly tournament I realized that I need to stick with one character and get the MUs down before separating my focus so I'm sticking with YL.
 
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In theory, yes. The issue is that you, the player, have to split your time and energy between multiple characters. If you have 100 hours to practice per month, it might be better to spend 100 hours on your main instead of 70 on your main and 30 on a secondary, so picking up a secondary isn't always beneficial. Top players, on the other hand, seem to spend 150-200+ hours every month or something like that (though a good amount of that is messing around while streaming), so it's easier to be good with multiple characters for them.
I mean, yeah. But it's still a matter of sunk-costs. None of the top players want to solo main, because doing so is risky. At this point, it's easier to cover harder match-ups with more favorable tool sets. Will it pay off in the long run? Idk. Anti basically became a jack-of-some-trades character specialist, but lacked MU specific knowledge for his stable of characters that would have allowed him to be say, a ZSS like Marsss, Choco, or Nairo.

Salem is betting that the majority of his competitive practice time into Link will pay off. Cosmos is betting on Inkling. Maybe it will pay off.

On the flipside, you have Larry, who is essentially keeping all three spacies as his roster. Could his Fox probably do alright against Young Link? Sure, if he grinded the MU. But as he was about to lose to Zan's YL, he switched to Falco and pulled a reverse 3-0.

It'll be interesting to see how this all plays out in the long term, but Ultimate also has a decent number of fundamentals-based characters that could serve as secondaries for the solo-main players, if the meta evolves a certain way.

Salem mostly played Bayonetta in Smash 4? He also had a Greninja but he didn't really use it much, he was basically a Bayonetta solo main and still did incredibly well.
Whether or not Salem has "top-level" secondaries isn't my point.

You used Salem switching off of Link as a strike against Link being a supposed top-tier character. However, you don't address the fact that basically every other top player (outside of the Foxes), also switched off from their supposed top-tier characters. Why is Wario, presumably, a top tier? He also got switched off of.

For these characters other than Link, you seem to assume that the switches occur for something other than an MU-based reason, but that's not at all self-evident.

But regardless, it doesn't really matter. As it stands, Link is #12 on DasKoopa's TTS aggregate results, which is quite a bit more than other presumed top tier characters like Wario, Pikachu, and Chroy.

Like I said, I don't think Link is necessarily a top tier character, but it's certainly not for lack of top tier results.
 
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I mean, yeah. But it's still a matter of sunk-costs. None of the top players want to solo main, because doing so is risky. At this point, it's easier to cover harder match-ups with more favorable tool sets. Will it pay off in the long run? Idk. Anti basically became a jack-of-some-trades character specialist, but lacked MU specific knowledge for his stable of characters that would have allowed him to be say, a ZSS like Marsss, Choco, or Nairo.

Salem is betting that the majority of his competitive practice time into Link will pay off. Cosmos is betting on Inkling. Maybe it will pay off.

On the flipside, you have Larry, who is essentially keeping all three spacies as his roster. Could his Fox probably do alright against Young Link? Sure, if he grinded the MU. But as he was about to lose to Zan's YL, he switched to Falco and pulled a reverse 3-0.

It'll be interesting to see how this all plays out in the long term, but Ultimate also has a decent number of fundamentals-based characters that could serve as secondaries for the solo-main players, if the meta evolves a certain way.



Whether or not Salem has "top-level" secondaries isn't my point.

You used Salem switching off of Link as a strike against Link being a supposed top-tier character. However, you don't address the fact that basically every other top player (outside of the Foxes), also switched off from their supposed top-tier characters. Why is Wario, presumably, a top tier? He also got switched off of.

For these characters other than Link, you seem to assume that the switches occur for something other than an MU-based reason, but that's not at all self-evident.

But regardless, it doesn't really matter. As it stands, Link is #12 on DasKoopa's TTS aggregate results, which is quite a bit more than other presumed top tier characters like Wario, Pikachu, and Chroy.

Like I said, I don't think Link is necessarily a top tier character, but it's certainly not for lack of top tier results.
I think people are also forgetting that top tiers aren't the only thing that wins a tournament.

If Link's overall results dont differ much in the next few months, I'll likely assume he's a high tier. I mean as of right now he has to be, based on his results. People can perceive that his frame data is gonna make him suffer and people can say his bombs suck (I've said it), but this is a different game from Smash 4 and Link is getting results regardless of what we say. Major results even. His star players have only proven themselves with him so far.

And this is coming from a guy who thought he was gonna suck harder than he did in previous games, competitively. Many characters have turned out much differently than I had expected. But again, this a different game than Smash 4 and I think I was still stuck there.
 
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I would like to put out one character that's not been discussed is Shulk. Shulk lacks presence in the competitive scene aside from his dedicated mains (i.e. Some and Nicko). His dedicated mains aren't some top 10 pros that the general population follows and worships. Admittedly, I am skeptical of him, largely because of his poor start-up time. But I won't deny that he may have very high potentials to be amazing. To those that have high-tier experience with him, what are your thoughts regarding Shulk? His Nair into Bair seems amazing also (met some Shulk player that kept spamming this and it reminded me of Ike for some reason).

We talked about shulk a couple of pages ago. Also I saw Larry Lurr playing him recently. I dont know if any top players will pick shulk up they tend to shy away from characters like shulk. Right now a lot of people are picking ease of use instead of learning something that;s difficult. So shulk will prob always only be played by his fanboys.
 
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I mean, yeah. But it's still a matter of sunk-costs. None of the top players want to solo main, because doing so is risky.
Oh, I do think top level players who have a lot of time to spend on the game may benefit from having more than one character, at least if their main has multiple bad matchups.

However, you don't address the fact that basically every other top player (outside of the Foxes), also switched off from their supposed top-tier characters. Why is Wario, presumably, a top tier? He also got switched off of.
I did address this, actually:
As for Tweek and MkLeo, it's already been established that they are capable of playing multiple characters and will switch based on what they feel like playing rather than strictly MU-based, we saw this happen in Smash 4 too.
Also, top tiers can have bad matchups. I'm on the fence whether Wario is a top tier or just a high tier, the character does have some notable flaws. Time will tell, I suppose.
 

Rizen

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Whether or not Salem has "top-level" secondaries isn't my point.

You used Salem switching off of Link as a strike against Link being a supposed top-tier character. However, you don't address the fact that basically every other top player (outside of the Foxes), also switched off from their supposed top-tier characters. Why is Wario, presumably, a top tier? He also got switched off of.

For these characters other than Link, you seem to assume that the switches occur for something other than an MU-based reason, but that's not at all self-evident.

But regardless, it doesn't really matter. As it stands, Link is #12 on DasKoopa's TTS aggregate results, which is quite a bit more than other presumed top tier characters like Wario, Pikachu, and Chroy.

Like I said, I don't think Link is necessarily a top tier character, but it's certainly not for lack of top tier results.
Name 1 person who said Wario is a top tier.

I don't think Ike is a top tier either and he won the major before this. Ike has better results than Link too. So does YL. The difference is people are saying Link is top 3. No one says YL's top 3 (he's not). Or Ike is. If Players are going to make claims like that on their tier lists I'd expect Link to have better results. Salem was a top 5 player who has won majors before. If Link really had the tools to be top 3 Salem should be scoring better and not forced to switch off Link against worse players. Top 3 is a very high bar. The reason people dump on Link isn't that we want him to lose; it's a much needed counter argument to people who, for some reason, ignore Link's very real flaws like being juggled hard, dying at 48% from being hit offstage or poor frame data.
 
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Shaya

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I currently think Wario has the feasibility to be top tier.
Going even or maybe slight advantage vs Fox: check.
An array of OoS options: check
An array of landing options: check
The tools necessary to consistently get 1 guaranteed stock per game with Waft. Most speculah that he gets two because of 3 stock, but I think that would require Wario to be outplaying the opponent / having a solid mu advantage. I'm very happy we aren't playing 2 stock games because you'd need to be outplaying the character for 3/4 of the game or more - but you'd still be in danger of losing the game. This isn't like Little Mac where stock loss or stray hits resets the issue.

This character reminds me of Brawl Wario.
But we (most of the cast) don't have a grab release KO move on him anymore.
And he has incredibly solid array of tools to combo in this game this time compared to Smash Four (and brawl to some extent, but in a game of 'no combos' beyond grabs [well wario did dthrow cg many key characters in the cast with frame perfect execution but I digress] he did exceptionally well thanks to having very low landing lag compared to most.

They took his recovery back a step to compensate for everything else they gave him. This will play out. Nairo showed it.
Interesting that without it, it was a pretty uphill battle though a lot of the time. Can Wario learn to recover better? Probably.

Forward Tilt swinging from the z-axis instead of a straight punch was also a pretty hefty upgrade to the move.
Particularly when trying to get off the ledge - in s4 most swordies could expect ftilt and hit him during the extension, but will now instead get z-axis spaced out into a feasible KO (if it was a ledge drop jump) in head to head or if done slightly later will still likely whiff punish for the same reward.

Still, time will tell.
Despite thinking he's one of only 3 chars who are assuredly top tier in the meta right now (not saying he's definitely top 3), it's weird I can't really see a way to nerf him. He's just genuinely strong, with a large array of tools, who due to mobility and animation/model quirks gets to set the pace of game play. His recovery is a weakness that means 'better players' should come out on top against him - this on top of forcing or baiting wafts will be game deciding as well as people get better at the MU.

Maybe when he loses a stock, during that brief moment of death before revival, he should follow the normal habits of carbon dioxide producing lifeforms and release a bit of his gas (not all!, like maybe 15-20 seconds off the timer... or half the charge? hmmm). But that's like, a Smash 6 scope type of change.
 
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Oh, I do think top level players who have a lot of time to spend on the game may benefit from having more than one character, at least if their main has multiple bad matchups.

I did address this, actually:

Also, top tiers can have bad matchups. I'm on the fence whether Wario is a top tier or just a high tier, the character does have some notable flaws. Time will tell, I suppose.
I don't know if you are reading my whole post at this point, because it seems like you are just replying to a single statement without actually taking into consideration the rest of the post. I don't really know what to say, so, short of rephrasing the same thing again, I'm going to drop this.


Name 1 person who said Wario is a top tier.
Like, in this thread, or in general? Browny made a pretty explicit post about it on the last page. In general, I mean, the most obvious answer is Zero. In a lowest common denominator sense, Twitch chat during the Glitch interview went nuts when Tweek suggested that Wario wasn't top tier.

I don't think Ike is a top tier either and he won the major before this. Ike has better results than Link too. So does YL. The difference is people are saying Link is top 3. No one says YL's top 3 (he's not). Or Ike is. If Players are going to make claims like that on their tier lists I'd expect Link to have better results. Salem was a top 5 player who has won majors before. If Link really had the tools to be top 3 Salem should be scoring better and not forced to switch off Link against worse players. Top 3 is a very high bar. The reason people dump on Link isn't that we want him to lose; it's a much needed counter argument to people who, for some reason, ignore Link's very real flaws like dying at 48% from being hit offstage or poor frame data.
Okay, so who, besides Salem, thinks Link is top 3? Like, who are people?

Actually, it doesn't matter, because you are replying to a piece of a larger point of contention with how Frihetsanka was implying Link wasn't top tier. My problem was with the inference that because Salem switched off, Link is not top tier. It's not a good argument, given the context of how many top players switched off their main characters.

Also, I already said I don't believe Link is top tier. You are making points against an argument I'm not making.

Also, also, Link could be top tier and still switched off of. The game is young and there are over 70 characters. Even Larry switches off of Fox, who looks like the most solid case for a solo top tier at this point.

Also, also, also, better results take time. It took quite a bit of time before Bayo won a major in Smash 4, and towards the end of the game's lifespan, her top players still had to switch off of her.

Also, also, also, also, I'm not attempting to hype Link up at all. Link isn't in my roster, and I have no dog in this fight. But your example is a bit... disingenuous. Like, how many characters are going to survive having their jump stolen, then being FF Fox-Fair'd with horizontal drift off the stage?
 

J0eyboi

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Name 1 person who said Wario is a top tier.
Leffen.

I don't think Ike is a top tier either and he won the major before this. Ike has better results than Link too. So does YL.
Based on what? Because according to the OrionStats TTS, Link has better results than all of those characters.

This character reminds me of Brawl Wario.
Fortunately, he isn't Brawl Wario, because Brawl Wario's air mobility was unholy.

Wario seems like a better-tuned version of Puff to me. They share a lot of the same strengths and weaknesses, only Wario has a worse recovery and timer-gated Rest in exchange for not being a paperweight and not getting punished for landing Rest. Where he ends up in the meta is beyond me because I haven't bothered to watch much Wario yet.

Okay, so who, besides Salem, thinks Link is top 3? Like, who are people?
IIRC Dabuz and Leo both put him top 5, with Dabuz putting him top 3.
 
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Actually, it doesn't matter, because you are replying to a piece of a larger point of contention with how Frihetsanka was implying Link wasn't top tier. My problem was with the inference that because Salem switched off, Link is not top tier.
Except I've never made this claim. My point was that some characters benefit more than others from secondaries, not that Link is or isn't a top tier. I don't think Link is a top tier, personally, but Salem switching off of him has nothing to do with it. ZeRo even switched off Diddy Kong vs Tsu (despite Diddy-Lucario likely being even). Sometimes players do these things to surprise their opponent, and it sometimes works, sometimes doesn't.

I wasn't even arguing about Link, he was just a convenient example to support the claim "Some characters benefit more from secondaries than others.", and to argue against "There is a need for secondaries".
 

Shaya

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Fortunately, he isn't Brawl Wario, because Brawl Wario's air mobility was unholy.

Wario seems like a better-tuned version of Puff to me. They share a lot of the same strengths and weaknesses, only Wario has a worse recovery and timer-gated Rest in exchange for not being a paperweight and not getting punished for landing Rest. Where he ends up in the meta is beyond me because I haven't bothered to watch much Wario yet.
It's still one of the best aerial mobility specs in the game. 2nd best acceleration, and 8th max aerial mobility. No one barring Jigglypuff has a higher combination (Yoshi has the highest max aerial mobility but 30% less acceleration than jiggs/wario).

Acceleration to me is the better stat to have in a lot of circumstances.
 

Lavani

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Re: character switching, I wouldn't put a whole lot of weight in switching off characters for the simple fact that the game is only six weeks old with a roster of 70+. People certainly don't have their characters perfected yet, and a good number are still likely searching for "the one". Everyone's still learning the game and getting a feel for what works, both overall and for themselves.

It's still one of the best aerial mobility specs in the game. 2nd best acceleration, and 8th max aerial mobility. No one barring Jigglypuff has a higher combination (Yoshi has the highest max aerial mobility but 30% less acceleration than jiggs/wario).

Acceleration to me is the better stat to have in a lot of circumstances.
Strongly agree with the importance of air accel. I forget who the competitors were, but I was watching a Palutena v Roy set the other day where the Roy was continually put into situations where he was falling into Explosive Flame, and with his pitiful air accel he wasn't able to adjust trajectory to escape, being forced to commit to airdodges or double jumps if available. As useful as being able to weave out of juggle situations was in 4, it feels even more important with airdodges now being a committal and limited resource.

And of course quick vs slow air accel changes up neutral options significantly as well. Aside from parrying, I can see Ike's performance dropping when people begin exploiting his short hop aerials running on a mostly fixed trajectory.
 

J0eyboi

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It's still one of the best aerial mobility specs in the game. 2nd best acceleration, and 8th max aerial mobility. No one barring Jigglypuff has a higher combination (Yoshi has the highest max aerial mobility but 30% less acceleration than jiggs/wario).
I don't think anyone would argue that Wario doesn't have some of the best lateral aerial mobility in the game. I'm just saying I'm glad his air accel is in line with the rest of the cast instead of being so high he could go from top speed in one direction to top speed in the other direction in 8 frames.

Acceleration to me is the better stat to have in a lot of circumstances.
I feel like air accel becomes more useful the more air speed you have. Palu's great air accel in 4 didn't count for much when she could barely go anywhere with it. Higher airspeed also lends itself to combos more than air accel does. I do think air accel is better, though.

Strongly agree with the importance of air accel. I forget who the competitors were, but I was watching a Palutena v Roy set the other day where the Roy was continually put into situations where he was falling into Explosive Flame, and with his pitiful air accel he wasn't able to adjust trajectory to escape, being forced to commit to airdodges or double jumps if available.
I don't disagree with your point, but in that particular situation, it's 100% Roy's fault for getting hit. Roy can B-reverse both his side-B and neutral-B in order to turn around in the air while barely committing. It's not super useful in neutral, but it's an invaluable landing option, especially B-reverse side-B which also temporarily alters Roy's vertical momentum.
 
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Rizen

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I don't know if you are reading my whole post at this point, because it seems like you are just replying to a single statement without actually taking into consideration the rest of the post. I don't really know what to say, so, short of rephrasing the same thing again, I'm going to drop this.




Like, in this thread, or in general? Browny made a pretty explicit post about it on the last page. In general, I mean, the most obvious answer is Zero. In a lowest common denominator sense, Twitch chat during the Glitch interview went nuts when Tweek suggested that Wario wasn't top tier.



Okay, so who, besides Salem, thinks Link is top 3? Like, who are people?

Actually, it doesn't matter, because you are replying to a piece of a larger point of contention with how Frihetsanka was implying Link wasn't top tier. My problem was with the inference that because Salem switched off, Link is not top tier. It's not a good argument, given the context of how many top players switched off their main characters.

Also, I already said I don't believe Link is top tier. You are making points against an argument I'm not making.

Also, also, Link could be top tier and still switched off of. The game is young and there are over 70 characters. Even Larry switches off of Fox, who looks like the most solid case for a solo top tier at this point.

Also, also, also, better results take time. It took quite a bit of time before Bayo won a major in Smash 4, and towards the end of the game's lifespan, her top players still had to switch off of her.

Also, also, also, also, I'm not attempting to hype Link up at all. Link isn't in my roster, and I have no dog in this fight. But your example is a bit... disingenuous. Like, how many characters are going to survive having their jump stolen, then being FF Fox-Fair'd with horizontal drift off the stage?
You're putting forward a lot of strawmen. Frihetsanka's argument was never Link isn't top tier because Salem switched off.

Salem, Leo, Debuz all put Link around top 5 at least and way to deflect from my question which you couldn't answer.

No you were the one who brought up Salem switching off link isn't a good argument for him being top tier, which was never the case. And you're still arguing it in this post. You "have a dog in this fight".

Now you're calling my example disingenuous? This argument is a complete strawman. You're trying to make it look like Link lives in scenarios most characters do. But his recovery is one of his big weaknesses in terms of distance. To answer your question directly here's a list of characters who could survive that very example:
:ultbayonetta1::ultbowser::ultbowserjr::ultfalcon::ultcorrin::ultduckhunt::ultfox::ultgreninja::ulticeclimbers::ultike::ultinkling::ultisabelle::ultjigglypuff::ultkingdedede::ultkrool::ultkirby::ultlucario::ultlucas::ultluigi::ultmarth::ultmegaman::ultmetaknight::ultmewtwo::ultgnw::ultness::ultolimar::ultpacman::ultpalutena::ultpeach::ultpichu::ultpikachu::ultpit::ultcharizard::ultridley::ultrob::ultrobin::ultrosalina::ultryu::ultsamus::ultdarksamus::ultshulk::ultsnake::ultsonic::ulttoonlink::ultvillager::ultwario::ultwiifittrainerm::ultyounglink::ultzelda::ultzss:
Link's recovery lacks distance! I've given other examples in the past. You're entire "dog" has been isolating examples and acting like there is no other supporting evidence.
 
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J0eyboi

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I'm aware that I'm probably screaming into the void here, but hey.

You're putting forward a lot of strawmen. Frihetsanka's argument was never Link isn't top tier because Salem switched off.
He heavily implied that that was the case. See:
Some characters benefit more from secondaries than others. Link is, presumably, not a top tier, and thus might have some bad MUs (potentially Fox?), though the Ganondorf pick seemed pretty sketchy to me.
At best, he's arguing that Salem switched off because Link isn't top tier and therefore has problematic matchups, which a) begs the question and b) handwaves the same assumption for Wario and Ike because Tweek and MKLeo have been known to switch based on things other than matchup, despite the fact that MKLeo only switched off Ike once he was down 0-2, and that Leo switched to Cloud, who probably has a better matchup against Fox than Ganon, the character Salem switched to. At worst, you're just wrong and that was what Frihetsanka meant. In either case, he didn't exactly do a stellar job of clarifying.

Salem, Leo, Debuz all put Link around top 5 at least and way to deflect from my question which you couldn't answer.
He didn't deflect from your question; you never asked a question. Unless you mean about Wario, which Minordeth literally did answer:

In general, I mean, the most obvious answer is Zero.

Now you're calling my example disingenuous? This argument is a complete strawman.
That isn't what strawman means.

You're trying to make it look like Link lives in scenarios most characters do. But his recovery is one of his big weaknesses in terms of distance.
Sorry, what

Link is one of two characters in the game who's recovery is theoretically infinite, if you take away the blastzones and stage. The fact that his up-B doesn't go very far sucks, but the only reason he died there is because he didn't have enough time to pull a bomb, which really shouldn't be that common a situation.

To answer your question directly here's a list of characters who could survive that very example:
:ultbayonetta1::ultbowser::ultbowserjr::ultfalcon::ultcorrin::ultduckhunt::ultfox::ultgreninja::ulticeclimbers::ultike::ultinkling::ultisabelle::ultjigglypuff::ultkingdedede::ultkrool::ultkirby::ultlucario::ultlucas::ultluigi::ultmarth::ultmegaman::ultmetaknight::ultmewtwo::ultgnw::ultness::ultolimar::ultpacman::ultpalutena::ultpeach::ultpichu::ultpikachu::ultpit::ultcharizard::ultridley::ultrob::ultrobin::ultrosalina::ultryu::ultsamus::ultdarksamus::ultshulk::ultsnake::ultsonic::ulttoonlink::ultvillager::ultwario::ultwiifittrainerm::ultyounglink::ultzelda::ultzss:
I highly doubt a lot of these. In particular (tested in training mode), Bowser, Luigi, the other Links (all 3 Links go about the same distance vertically, so they all should've died if one of them did), ZSS (neither Flip Jump nor Boost Kick would've reached there), Corrin, Peach, Ike (too far away from the ledge horizontally), both Samuses, Shulk (unless he was in Jump), and Ryu almost certainly couldn't survive there. Wario can only make it with Bike; ICs can only make it with Nana; ROB can only make it with fuel; Zard, Ridley, Puff, and Kirby can only make it if they still have remaining jumps; and Falcon, Marth, Mewtwo, Ness, WFT, and Bayo are ambiguous but I'm leaning towards no.
 
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At best, he's arguing that Salem switched off because Link isn't top tier and therefore has problematic matchups, which a) begs the question

I have nothing useful to contribute to this discussion but holy cow thank you so much for being one of the few people who actually uses the phrase begs/begging the question correctly.



For those unaware, "begging the question" means assuming your conclusion as your premise, e.g., that Link is not top tier therefore he lacks top tier characteristics therefore he is not top tier.

It doesn't mean "raises the question," which is how it's often used.
 
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Ajani

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Its interesting to see the drop in Wolf tops when we consider tournaments with massive showings. Since I didnt really keep up tabs on the WHOLE tournament, can anyone verify if there were many Wolf players?
 

Nobie

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Perhaps one factor in choosing secondaries is determining how much time you need to train them relative to who your main is. For example, maybe Larry Lurr using all spacies means having a consistent character template where practice with one character can still benefit the others. It could also mean that switching during a match might be less jarring, compared to going between two very different characters.
 
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Also, also, also, better results take time. It took quite a bit of time before Bayo won a major in Smash 4, and towards the end of the game's lifespan, her top players still had to switch off of her.

Also, also, also, also, I'm not attempting to hype Link up at all. Link isn't in my roster, and I have no dog in this fight. But your example is a bit... disingenuous. Like, how many characters are going to survive having their jump stolen, then being FF Fox-Fair'd with horizontal drift off the stage?
Again, I think people are assuming too much of the top tiers.

I've always thought Link generally had one of the better recoveries due to his bomb jumps. The new remote bombs seem to be able to launch him to the middle of the stage at higher percents too. His Up-B alone is a little linear but even that has wide hitboxes around him that can protect him. Not to mention pretty much every Up-B in the game is linear.

I personally never thought Link was top tier. In fact, he's much higher than I thought he'd be. When Salem said that, I laughed. But regardless, Salem proved himself with Link so far. Maybe he didn't necessarily prove that Link is a definite top tier, but proved that Link is an actual threat. But he also proved that HE as a player, is a threat too.

But I disagree with the argument that Link has to be lower tier because Salem switched off of him at some point. Regardless of switching his numbers don't lie; he looks high tier right now. If you're having a bad game with your main in a set I would hope you switch off of them, top tier or not.
 
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Nate1080

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A Smash tournament from Nintendo coming up?
https://www.nintendo.com/switch/events/ssbu-nao-2019-official-rules/

Just read the rules of it, looks like a timed best of one (best of 3 finals with 3 stock) with items and smash ball on. This tournament is super janky.
 
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ARISTOS

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I don't think Ike is a top tier either and he won the major before this. Ike has better results than Link too. So does YL. The difference is people are saying Link is top 3. No one says YL's top 3 (he's not). Or Ike is. If Players are going to make claims like that on their tier lists I'd expect Link to have better results. Salem was a top 5 player who has won majors before. If Link really had the tools to be top 3 Salem should be scoring better and not forced to switch off Link against worse players. Top 3 is a very high bar. The reason people dump on Link isn't that we want him to lose; it's a much needed counter argument to people who, for some reason, ignore Link's very real flaws like being juggled hard, dying at 48% from being hit offstage or poor frame data.
This example is hella disingenuous, most characters should they have their DJ stolen like that are dead, Link is not unique in that regard.

I feel like air accel becomes more useful the more air speed you have. Palu's great air accel in 4 didn't count for much when she could barely go anywhere with it. Higher airspeed also lends itself to combos more than air accel does. I do think air accel is better, though.
Yeah, Peach/Daisy and Palutena really enjoy the cast wide air speed increase-their jump-in's now are way more ambiguous thanks to it, which they can make a lot of use of thanks to generous hitboxes the characters share on aerials.

I have nothing useful to contribute to this discussion but holy cow thank you so much for being one of the few people who actually uses the phrase begs/begging the question correctly.



For those unaware, "begging the question" means assuming your conclusion as your premise, e.g., that Link is not top tier therefore he lacks top tier characteristics therefore he is not top tier.

It doesn't mean "raises the question," which is how it's often used.
Actually didn't know this, so thank you
 

DavemanCozy

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I would like to put out one character that's not been discussed is Shulk. Shulk lacks presence in the competitive scene aside from his dedicated mains (i.e. Some and Nicko). His dedicated mains aren't some top 10 pros that the general population follows and worships. Admittedly, I am skeptical of him, largely because of his poor start-up time. But I won't deny that he may have very high potentials to be amazing. To those that have high-tier experience with him, what are your thoughts regarding Shulk? His Nair into Bair seems amazing also (met some Shulk player that kept spamming this and it reminded me of Ike for some reason).
Yeah Nicko is really good, he got 3rd place at a tourney with Shulk and hilariously enough I believe Larry tried the ditto with him at that same tourney too... so I'm not sure if Larry is thinking about him or just having fun.

Yeah here's the video. It's just game 1; https://youtu.be/ZKF2QQZGeTc

From what I can tell he's a lot better than he was in Smash4, the engine overall benefits him a lot more: shields getting nerfed means his moves are much safer when blocked, air-dodges getting nerfed means his massive hitboxes can't be as easily avoided now, and landing lag reduction immensely benefits him too for that reason. Having an arts wheel to quickly choose his art is a lot more intuitive and quicker than tapping the button several times until you get the art you want. I do also believe that his arts got a lot more extreme in this game, the buffs along with nerfs he gets from them are a lot more drastic.

But in my opinion Shulk does have a high learning curve, and he still has above average startup on his moves which may be troublesome against characters like the electric rats and the Inklings. For ref: jab is frame 5, his fastest aerial is N-air at frame 13, his fastest tilt is D-tilt at frame 10... he's still a slow boi who needs to use his range to get as much advantage as possible. The overall movement buff to every character makes this a larger issue as well, more than it used to be in Smash4. We'll see... I'm not gonna count him off in this game though.
 
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Rizen

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Yeah Nicko is really good, he got 3rd place at a tourney with Shulk and hilariously enough I believe Larry tried the ditto with him at that same tourney too... so I'm not sure if Larry is thinking about him or just having fun.

Yeah here's the video. It's just game 1; https://youtu.be/ZKF2QQZGeTc

From what I can tell he's a lot better than he was in Smash4, the engine overall benefits him a lot more: shields getting nerfed means his moves are much safer when blocked, air-dodges getting nerfed means his massive hitboxes can't be as easily avoided now, and landing lag reduction immensely benefits him too for that reason. Having an arts wheel to quickly choose his art is a lot more intuitive and quicker than tapping the button several times until you get the art you want. I do also believe that his arts got a lot more extreme in this game, the buffs along with nerfs he gets from them are a lot more drastic.

But in my opinion Shulk does have a high learning curve, and he still has above average startup on his moves which may be troublesome against characters like the electric rats and the Inklings. For ref: jab is frame 5, his fastest aerial is N-air at frame 13, his fastest tilt is D-tilt at frame 10... he's still a slow boi who needs to use his range to get as much advantage as possible. The overall movement buff to every character makes this a larger issue as well, more than it used to be in Smash4. We'll see... I'm not gonna count him off in this game though.
I think Shulk, although better, is one of those characters who gets hyped a lot on potential. He has good things going for him, like you said worse shielding and airdodges offstage. At the same time his frame data is terrible. He does have some ways around it, a f5 jab is standard for swordsmen and gives him a gtfo move on the ground. I heard he can switch to shield art in hitstun to interrupt combos; is that true? If so that's a huge help. Shulk's hard to place. I don't think he's a top tier or has "no losing MUs" which IIRC Nicko said; if he was he'd have more use. Difficult or not, the cream rises to the top. IDK what to do with him; he's anywhere from mid to high tier :ohwell:
 

Soul Boost

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Falcon, appears to be on the more technical side of the roster in this game. His character underwent a complete overhaul between smash 4 and Ultimate. His kill options used to include back air and raptor boost but those have been traded for a killing up special and falcon kick at higher percents. He trades his combo starter falling up air for fast fall nair hit 1 which leads into many things at almost every percent. His neutral options were very clear cut in smash 4 but seem to be more nebulous now. He loses his amazing dash grab but gains options out of sprint. Slide tilted Ftilt is a good poking tool and jab out of sprint is great for punishing landings.

Characters with big disjointed hitboxes like swordies and projectile users due to the shield mechanics changes seem to have it better off in neutral, and falcon has neither of those things. His combo potential in this game is excellent with things like first hit nair and his up air is still great. He has great potential in tech chases as well. But these things are lost if you can't exploit openings. Falcon's success in neutral will require a lot of matchup knowledge to space around the opponent's neutral options and use falcon's speed to exploit openings. A falcon player will have to make the most of every opening they get in this game because he is still combo food.

Its going to be a hard life for falcon mains out there, I won't say anything about where I'd place him on the tier list because I think Falcon will be very dynamic in the meta as it progresses. I'll just say he should not be written off. His custom combos and edgeguarding presence make him worth playing.
 
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