Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

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Couple of thoughts about Glitch:

1. Where is Chrom? What happened to him? Tweek had an excellent Chrom in the past, but now his secondary seems to be YL.

2. Tweek is right about Wario being low-high at best. He's got significant weaknesses that are being covered up by his general skill. For example Lucina is a bad match up for Wario, Tweek is just making it look good. That said, while I think he'll drop in effectiveness, I don't think it'll be to the extent of Smash 4. He's definitely a good character now, even if he isn't top 10 or something.

3. Fox is a top 5 character for sure. There's no denying it anymore.

I think this was discussed before, but Chroms notable flaw in his very bad recovery may become a bigger hindrance to his success players get more comfortable and used to going all-out offensive offstage . I am not saying Chrom is not very good, but his recovery may hold him back from being the Top tier character everyone was thinking he was at the start of the game, and give him some rather unfavorable MU's as the meta progresses. Right now popular characters like :ultpichu::ultpalutena::ultsnake: have ways to edgeuard the heck out of him. To comment on ehat Rizen has been saying I put Chrom just behind Wario at the top of high tier
 
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Kellojolly

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I really did think Leo’s cloud actually was doing well and much better against tweek. Also, I’m not curious what everyone has to say about Ike and his placement. His Nair was being partied quite a bit especially by Light. But before that, his Ike looked amazing ice again. I would have liked to have seen him pull out lucina since he plays her very often on his stream.
 

Rizen

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I think this was discussed before, but Chroms notable flaw in his very bad recovery may become a bigger hindrance to his success players get more comfortable and used to going all-out offensive offstage a I am not saying Chrom is not very good, but his recovery may hold him back from being the Top tier everyone was thinking hw was at the start of the game, and give him some rather unfavorable MU's as the meta progresses. Agreeing with Rizen said I may put Chrom just behind Wario at the top of high tier
What makes intercepting Chrom scary is his upB kamikazes and kills the opponent first. For that imo his recovery's better than Roy's.
 
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What makes intercepting Chrom scary is his upB kamikazes and kills the opponent first. For that imo his recovery's better than Roy's.
Yeah well 10 bucks says that gets nerfed in a future patch just like Bowerside in Smash 4 and Gannoncide in Ultimate for that matter
 
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Rocketjay8

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What makes intercepting Chrom scary is his upB kamikazes and kills the opponent first. For that imo his recovery's better than Roy's.
The problem with Chrom's recovery is that it's super vulnerable to counters that 1/3rd of the cast has. Not to mention that his lack of a hitbox above him makes him extremely vulnerable to stage spikes. Roy's recovery is only slightly better than Chrom's dut too the fact that it can snap to the ledge and he can mix it up more. Roy's still sucks *** though.
 
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Nocally

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Might be jumping the gun, but it does seem like the meta is very diverse at the moment.

we got speedy characters, swordies, heavies, (and speedy sword heavies).

the future meta seems very unpredictable.
 
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Rizen

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I hope not, suicides should always kill the opponent first IMO.
None of the grab suicides do. IMO it should be on a case by case basis. Ganon's side B should kill the opponent first, it's balanced enough. Chrom's shouldn't; it's too easy to catch opponents regardless of positioning and isn't a command grab. He can also combo into it.
 

J0eyboi

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What makes intercepting Chrom scary is his upB kamikazes and kills the opponent first. For that imo his recovery's better than Roy's.
No.

I can't believe I need to explain this, but that doesn't make Chrom's recovery good in the slightest. If Chrom ever has to use his Up-B while recovering, he is dead. It doesn't matter if he's near the ledge or not; if he's in a situation where he has no choice other than to up-B, the only thing saving him from death is the opponent's execution errors. His Up-B, while it seems scary at first, has no hitbox while rising, meaning it's vulnerable to whatever the **** you feel like for a good portion of the animation. Chrom is able to avoid Up-Bing fairly well, but Roy has just about every recovery mixup Chrom does, and a couple more for good measure, not to mention being significantly less dead offstage if he up-Bs. There is no reasonable argument that Chrom's recovery is better than Roy's. I'd rather be alive than scary.

Now, if you meant that Chrom's Up-B is better than Roy's, I can see that, but a) it's still a significantly worse move for recovering, and b) that wasn't the topic at hand.
 

Rizen

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No.

I can't believe I need to explain this, but that doesn't make Chrom's recovery good in the slightest. If Chrom ever has to use his Up-B while recovering, he is dead. It doesn't matter if he's near the ledge or not; if he's in a situation where he has no choice other than to up-B, the only thing saving him from death is the opponent's execution errors. His Up-B, while it seems scary at first, has no hitbox while rising, meaning it's vulnerable to whatever the **** you feel like for a good portion of the animation. Chrom is able to avoid Up-Bing fairly well, but Roy has just about every recovery mixup Chrom does, and a couple more for good measure, not to mention being significantly less dead offstage if he up-Bs. There is no reasonable argument that Chrom's recovery is better than Roy's. I'd rather be alive than scary.

Now, if you meant that Chrom's Up-B is better than Roy's, I can see that, but a) it's still a significantly worse move for recovering, and b) that wasn't the topic at hand.
It has a starting hitbox before it goes up and super armor frame 10-30. Having a move that can kill at 0% does indeed make a recovery better; it's riskier to challenge.
 
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Rocketjay8

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It has a starting hitbox before it goes up and super armor frame 10-30. Having a move that can kill at 0% does indeed make a recovery better; it's riskier to challenge. I'm sick of your attitude, ignored.
Ok, what the heck is with your attitude? Joeyboi explained to you the problems of Chrom's recovery, and then you ignore him because of his "attitude"?
 
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Browny

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As of the 21st of January, 2019;

There is literally no evidence whatsoever, that anyone can point to, which indicates Wario is not top tier. There is countless evidence that Wario is in fact, top tier.

Tweeks words are literally worthless in the face of his actual decisions when grand finals are on the line. If he regularly comes to the conclusion that Wario is his best chance of winning major tournaments, and he actually does it, then wario by definition is a top tier character. If he is so adamant that Wario isn't top tier and its him carrying the character, there is one and ONLY one way to prove it; win majors with any other character. If he can't do it, or refuses to even try, then Wario is top tier.

It's not unusual for top players to declare that their character sucks as a pathetic attempt at ego boosting to believe they would do even better had they used a top tier character.
 
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Sean²

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It's significantly less risky to intercept Chrom if he has to recover low. Any good spike or disjoint will knock him out of it on the way up and he should hopefully be dead. If he's recovering higher and you're behind or in a last stock situation, is it worth the risk? You might be able to ledge trap him just as easily and get him into an even worse situation.
 

J0eyboi

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It has a starting hitbox before it goes up and super armor frame 10-30. Having a move that can kill at 0% does indeed make a recovery better; it's riskier to challenge.
On the offchance you didn't ignore me, I'm aware that Chrom's recovery has super armor. There's still an 8-frame gap in between the last frame of super armor and first hitbox at the peak of the move. Once again, the only thing saving Chrom from dying every time he's forced to up-B is execution (does this count as a pun?), something that people invariably improve at over time. Chrom gets away with a lot more than he should because of that, and also because people suck at covering directional airdodge.

And yes, it is technically riskier to challenge Chrom's recovery because it kills you than it would be if it didn't, but because it is so easy to disrupt before that point, there's very little added risk in most situations.
 
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Nobie

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Why all this interest in Ryu?

Ironic coming from a MM player imo.
I think it partially has to do with how some players are starting to look back towards Ryu, but also partially to do with the design differences between Ryu and Ken.

One of the big differences is that run speed, which didn't necessarily need to exist. They could've made Ryu faster on the ground, but they instead chose to buff his fireballs, as if to say "this is the trade-off." Ryu has the better Hadoken in his source games, so it's also likely for character faithfulness, but there's a general trend in this game of characters being changed to play in styles they were designed around, and I can't help but feel Ryu is in a similar boat.

For example, I think the reason Rosalina is viewed so harshly is that they pushed her far deeper into puppeteer territory, from Eddie to Carl Clover, and it invalidates much of the old knowledge as well as alienates the types of players who gravitated towards her Smash 4 self. She could still be a bad character, but a change like this inevitably affects a character's meta to the point where players have to basically rediscover her.

Given that Ryu is stated to be based on Super Turbo Ryu above all else, there's an established model of what that looks like, and ST Ryu loves fireballs. Of course, the mechanics of Smash are so different that this couldn't possibly translate 100%, but there are also new (ish) things the Smash engine gives him, like the ability to jump while implementing command motions to do an instant short hop Hadoken.

So basically, I'm wondering if Ryu was changed to play a certain way that's a little closer to his origins, and whether maining the character might require a change in perspective.
 
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mewtwo!!! isnt!!!! midtier!!!!!! you can see it right there! this character still has tons of tools! nair is amazing for shutting down aerial approaches. fair is as broken as ever. shadow ball is as broken as ever. dtilt still combos if you get the hitbox close to mewtwo's body. ftilt is a great boxing tool, spacing tool, kill move near the edge. uthrow kills arent as good as they were, but still very good. the hitbox on mewtwo's usmash is extremely forgiving on grounded opponents and has turned it into a very solid move.

9th at a major is all you need to know.
Someone must be doing something incredibly wrong to have their approach shut down by nair, a multihit move with no range. Few attacks will even trade with it, and even if they did, the enemy would win every time because the move will do what like 1% per hit?

Fair is a good move, but considering its nerfed follow up potential, I wouldn't call it broken. It still is missing range as always, and now you don't get hit by 2 of them every time you land it before about 50%.

Shadow ball is more broken than ever. It does more damage, and you can combo out of it consistently, as opposed to only at like 0% from a fully charged one in sm4sh.

I don't know what characters you're trying to box with mewtwo's ftilt, but a frame 10 move requiring spacing to have any resemblance of shield safety is the opposite of a boxing move. Something like one of those frame 3 jabs is what I would call a good boxing move. As a spacing move it's passable I guess. Assuming the training mode invincibility accurately displays hurtboxes (which would explain my experiences with his tail moves), it extends his hurtbox a lot, so that's a problem. The hitboxes are inverted for what you'd want out of a spacing move. Nice range though. Kill power buff was welcomed.

Up smash was never an important move, and aside from having fewer hits and the final hit appearing to whiff on short characters more often when they aren't scooped up by the first hit, the move appears exactly the same. The first hitbox scoops enemies exactly how I remember it.

There are legitimate reasons for people to find mewtwo significantly worse than the previous game, but I won't talk about those in this post.
 

PK Gaming

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Wario being low-high tier at best is an untenable position when you consider his results so far. Tweek has previously stated the character is mid tier, so I wouldn't place any stock in his assessment of the character atm. Consider the following:

-Wario's x-factor is so strong it allows him to win matchups he would ordinarily get destroyed in (ie: Lucina).
-Wario's kit is actually fairly strong this time, instead of being aggressively mediocre / outright broken like in Smash 4.
-Bike (while nerfed) is still a fairly strong recovery tool. Nairo had the right idea when it came to edgeguarding but it took extreme aggression to consistently kill him.
-Wario's attributes are pretty incredible. He's got great mobility with a normal size despite being a heavy.
-Unlike in Smash 4, the character can actually do damage once he gets in.

I don't think there's any ambiguity here; Tweek might arguably be the best player in the world, but Wario is absolutely a strong character.
 
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Superyoshiom

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After seeing multiple tournament results for majors, I'm really noticing a like of high placement for Pokemon Trainer, with the best being Leffen's at Valhalla. As a Pokemon Trainer main, I really hope this is just due to a lack of interest from top players as opposed to the character not being that viable. I've heard a lot of the Glitch commentators talk down about Trainer too, which makes me pretty sad, considering that he/she is a solid counterplay against top tiers like Fox.
 
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For example, I think the reason Rosalina is viewed so harshly is that they pushed her far deeper into puppeteer territory, from Eddie to Carl Clover, and it invalidates much of the old knowledge as well as alienates the types of players who gravitated towards her Smash 4 self. She could still be a bad character, but a change like this inevitably affects a character's meta to the point where players have to basically rediscover her.
Skipping over the Ryu stuff because I can't use him or Ken properly to save my life but I agree 100% with this paragraph. I've been trying to lab some small Luma combos in my free time, although it's been an exercise in frustration so far. The best I've come up with is falling nair to star bits to ftilt or dtilt at low percents, but it's finicky and I'm not even sure it's true.
 
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In an interview, Sakurai discuss about campy players.
He want to punish them
 
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The_Bookworm

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In an interview, Sakurai discuss about campy characters.
He want to punish them
I feel like Ultimate's engine kinda prevents camping from occurring, or at least make less viable to do so.

Completely unrelated to all of this, but I found a tweet earlier that I found funny considering the controversy around Salem:
1086683029236416512 is not a valid tweet id
 

Emblem Lord

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In an interview, Sakurai discuss about campy players.
He want to punish them
Eh.

Guilty Gear does it by taking away your meter.

Essentially it's on a timer and if you avoid interaction with your opponent for a certain amount of time, the game takes away your super guage.
 
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After seeing multiple tournament results for majors, I'm really noticing a like of high placement for Pokemon Trainer, with the best being Leffen's at Valhalla. As a Pokemon Trainer main, I really hope this is just due to a lack of interest from top players as opposed to the character not being that viable. I've heard a lot of the Glitch commentators talk down about Trainer too, which makes me pretty sad, considering that he/she is a solid counterplay against top tiers like Fox.
I don't think anyone is contesting the notion that Pokémon Trainer is good. It's just that a lot of the effort required to learn Pokémon Trainer is effort that most players would likely invest into other characters.
 
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Eh.

Guilty Gear does it by taking away your meter.

Essentially it's on a timer and if you avoid interaction with your opponent for a certain amount of time, the game takes away your super guage.
Sounds like what they did with Cloud's Limit, then. (Does Mac's KO Punch also vanish if you don't use it or does it only go away by knockback?)
 

trickroom

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Someone must be doing something incredibly wrong to have their approach shut down by nair, a multihit move with no range. Few attacks will even trade with it, and even if they did, the enemy would win every time because the move will do what like 1% per hit?

Fair is a good move, but considering its nerfed follow up potential, I wouldn't call it broken. It still is missing range as always, and now you don't get hit by 2 of them every time you land it before about 50%.

I don't know what characters you're trying to box with mewtwo's ftilt, but a frame 10 move requiring spacing to have any resemblance of shield safety is the opposite of a boxing move. Something like one of those frame 3 jabs is what I would call a good boxing move. As a spacing move it's passable I guess. Assuming the training mode invincibility accurately displays hurtboxes (which would explain my experiences with his tail moves), it extends his hurtbox a lot, so that's a problem. The hitboxes are inverted for what you'd want out of a spacing move. Nice range though. Kill power buff was welcomed.

Up smash was never an important move, and aside from having fewer hits and the final hit appearing to whiff on short characters more often when they aren't scooped up by the first hit, the move appears exactly the same. The first hitbox scoops enemies exactly how I remember it.
Your corrections on my post are mostly semantics, but that's my fault for using unclear + poor terminology. By 'boxing' I mostly meant spacing, so sorry about that. I was being hyperbolic when calling fair 'broken' too. Of course it's not actually broken, though it is a very good move. I would still push back on the other two statements though. If you look at a set like this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2cgNHT13Jc you'll see that SDX quite regularly uses SH nair to stop grounded and aerial (mostly grounded, actually, so sorry for not mentioning that) approaches. It's an option most useful to an aerial end against characters who don't have a good forward air to throw out (Fox, Falcon, etc.) but is useful regardless. As for the upsmash, you are more experienced than me but I really do think Mewtwo's upsmash has a bigger 'scooping' hitbox than Sm4sh. Hopefully someone can verify either way.
 
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I feel like Ultimate's engine kinda prevents camping from occurring, or at least make less viable to do so.

Completely unrelated to all of this, but I found a tweet earlier that I found funny considering the controversy around Salem:
1086683029236416512 is not a valid tweet id
Interesting concept from Sakurai on preventing people from camping though it would be hard to determine what is considered "camping" and what is considered smart, defensive or reactive play. Like would I be penalized for making TLink come at me because I have a sizeable lead and no longer need to deal with trying to get through his wall of projectiles?

I actually think defensive play is perfectly viable in this game. Everyone is faster including the zoning and projectile characters. With the changes to shield, roll and air dodges dealing with projectiles is more linear. You can't perfect shield them anymore, so either you risk a parry which has no negative effect for the projectile user or time it wrong and get hit in the face or you hold shield to stop it and have to commit longer to being in shield to do so due to longer shield drop frames. Rolling past them is an option but slower rolls and roll stalling makes it easier for the projectile user to punish that. SHAD isn't a thing anymore and even though landing with an AD isn't that laggy, the AD is too laggy for you to be able to use an aerial before landing so that's easily punished. It often leads to your best bet being to either jump over it, retreat from it (which helps your opponent) or time a hitbox to clang with the projectile.

I think once the hype of hyper aggression fades off you'll see more of the zoning characters try to play more defensively and like zoning characters rather than like Fox. That's not too say offense isn't favored in this game because it totally is but this time around campy defensive play isn't optimal 70% of the time but still a valid option.
 

Planty

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Skipping over the Ryu stuff because I can't use him or Ken properly to save my life but I agree 100% with this paragraph. I've been trying to lab some small Luma combos in my free time, although it's been an exercise in frustration so far. The best I've come up with is falling nair to star bits to ftilt or dtilt at low percents, but it's finicky and I'm not even sure it's true.
Star bits are negative on hit for a large range of percent, so it's definitely not true. Even if it was, Luma's damage is so laughably small that it's not even worth it. Detethered Luma should be used to control space and lead into Rosa hits, but as was mentioned earlier, this type of playstyle is completely different from smash 4 and requires "rediscovering" the character. As it is now, tethered play with Rosalina is a little bit underwhelming, mainly because of how easy it is to kill Luma and how below average their frame data is.
 

Lavani

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:ultmewtwo: usmash launching hitbox (and all hitboxes on the move, for that matter) is identical to :4mewtwo: in size and position, though interestingly it uses a brand new angle of 368°, which I don't think was used in previous games. I assume that does something to prevent situations where the opponent could fly past Mewtwo after the first hit.
 
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Star bits are negative on hit for a large range of percent, so it's definitely not true. Even if it was, Luma's damage is so laughably small that it's not even worth it. Detethered Luma should be used to control space and lead into Rosa hits, but as was mentioned earlier, this type of playstyle is completely different from smash 4 and requires "rediscovering" the character. As it is now, tethered play with Rosalina is a little bit underwhelming, mainly because of how easy it is to kill Luma and how below average their frame data is.
...well that's just ridiculous.
I thought it was if he was knocked into tumble (except for the first few seconds), so not random. Did they change it?
Not to my knowledge. It still works as you describe in my experience.
 
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ZeRo announced that he wont be in Genesis 6 and he will watch the stream instead. He also mentions that he got a permission to go but he decline.

What do you think from his statement?
 
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In an interview, Sakurai discuss about campy players.
He want to punish them
Sounds like it was supposed to stop people from running away forever on bigger stages in FFAs more than punishing defensive players in 1v1s.
 

Kellojolly

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After the tournament, which characters do you believe will gain or lose stock?

I guess we won't really see Cloud's potential at Genesis 6? Are any notable Cloud players attending?
I don't think so. But we'll see what Leo will do here on out. His Ike was "exposed" in his weakness to parry, which pros can hand out comfortably against Ike. His two games of Cloud showed he can fair better against Light's Fox than Ike. Other than that, we didn't see much unfortunately.
 

The_Bookworm

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I guess we won't really see Cloud's potential at Genesis 6? Are any notable Cloud players attending?
Not sure. There may be a chance Leo or Tweek may pull out the Cloud, but they are most likely just going to their signature Ike and Wario, respectively.

I thought it was if he was knocked into tumble (except for the first few seconds), so not random. Did they change it?
I may be wrong. Maybe they didn't change it.
 

Rizen

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Something Glitch 6 showed is the need for secondaries. We saw several top players switch off their character, even if they didn't take games with the secondary. Leo went from Ike to Cloud, Salem switched off Link to ZSS and Ganon for the Fox MU, Tweek used YL to cover Wario's bad MUs, Nairo had a Lucina and Palutena, etc.
 
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After the tournament, which characters do you believe will gain or lose stock?
Wolf because of Zackray.

Something Glitch 6 showed is the need for secondaries. We saw several top players switch off their character, even if they didn't take games with the secondary. Leo went from Ike to Cloud, Salem switched off Link to ZSS and Ganon for the Fox MU, Tweek used YL to cover Wario's bad MUs, Nairo had a Lucina and Palutena, etc.
Some characters benefit more from secondaries than others. Link is, presumably, not a top tier, and thus might have some bad MUs (potentially Fox?), though the Ganondorf pick seemed pretty sketchy to me. As for Tweek and MkLeo, it's already been established that they are capable of playing multiple characters and will switch based on what they feel like playing rather than strictly MU-based, we saw this happen in Smash 4 too. Oh, same with Nairo, he played multiple characters in Smash 4 too.

Unless your character has -2 MUs, you don't need a secondary (and -2 MUs are still winnable anyway, though it's hard). While some players used secondaries, many didn't (reminder that ZeRo mostly played Diddy Kong at the end of Smash 4 and still won quite often).
 
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