Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Ienzo97]

It's mainly because the compensation they gave him for system changes don't really help or do anything for him. M2 as a character received major nerfs and some minor ones. Not only that but m2 was always a character with poor OoS options and nerfing shield grab doesnt help at all. Losing kill confims dont help. Losing combos dont help. I really could care less if he could dash and do dtilt (which ahs more end lag) that doesnt address him problems. The new nair is trash.. Shadowball is good cool. Not going to play m2 for shadowball when you can just play lucario. He's a massive floaty character who dies early and isnt as rewarded for getting hits as he was in sm4sh. But keep telling us how awesome m2 is while no top mewtwo player plays him. I love that.

SDX still plays him and won a pretty big monthly last week going solo M2. So what you're saying just isn't true.

Edit: Browny beat me to it. But the point still stands lol

 

[TurboLink]

Honestly, I'd just buff Sheik a little and nerf Inklings ink mechanic a little, and then we're just about golden.

Also, maybe nerf Peach's aerials or find a way to have them be at 88% of the usual power when she's floating low.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with any Peach's aerials.

 

[Rizen]

Not sure if anyone mentioned this, but apparently Diddy has a banana infinite on characters on platforms:

Thoughts?

The only nerfs I accept at this point are to things like infinites. This looks hard but I've seen Luigi players use his 0-death so you never know. Maybe someone will use it in a tournament. If they do nerf Luigi's 0-death they should buff something else as compensation. He's not a great character without it.

Looks like ESAM got his revenge on MVD:
https://smashboards.com/threads/ssbu-tournament-results.464865/post-22935900
Does Pika have any advantages over Pichu? Weight obviously and maybe range.

 

[Diddy Kong]

There's absolutely nothing wrong with any Peach's aerials.

No none of them are exceptionally game breaking, but they still feel a bit too powerful because Peach's float cancels out the 0,88 x attack modifier for short hop aerials.

About the Diddy infinity, it's a novelity thing that doesn't really change our gameplay in any sort of way. I won't even bother to learn it honestly, because it feels way too situational. Maybe I'll learn it once I get bored and really feel like styling on people.

Speaking about Diddy, I see him way more frequently in the tournament thread. Told you all he's still good. People are picking up on that now finally.

 

[The_Bookworm]

The only nerfs I accept at this point are to things like infinites. This looks hard but I've seen Luigi players use his 0-death so you never know. Maybe someone will use it in a tournament. If they do nerf Luigi's 0-death they should buff something else as compensation. He's not a great character without it.

Looks like ESAM got his revenge on MVD:
https://smashboards.com/threads/ssbu-tournament-results.464865/post-22935900
Does Pika have any advantages over Pichu? Weight obviously and maybe range.

Pretty much listed the two main things he has over Pichu (as well as less suceptilble to combos, noticeably faster on the ground, and no recoil damage), but it what I think makes him better than Pichu in the long run. Everything else, Pichu does better, but not by much, while Pika isn't as polarizing by character design.

 

[Swaggy-G]

The only nerfs I accept at this point are to things like infinites. This looks hard but I've seen Luigi players use his 0-death so you never know. Maybe someone will use it in a tournament. If they do nerf Luigi's 0-death they should buff something else as compensation. He's not a great character without it.

Looks like ESAM got his revenge on MVD:
https://smashboards.com/threads/ssbu-tournament-results.464865/post-22935900
Does Pika have any advantages over Pichu? Weight obviously and maybe range.

ESAM made a video about this actually:

 

[Rizen]

ESAM made a video about this actually:

Good video (that music though :/).

Anyone know the differences between Peach and Daisy?

 

[The_Bookworm]

Good video (that music though :/).

Anyone know the differences between Peach and Daisy?

Peach and Daisy has virtually no differences. Minor different hitbox shifting in idle animations, but that is it (at least so far).

Going to do other echo fighter differences as well.

 

[HypnoMaster372]

Good video (that music though :/).

Anyone know the differences between Peach and Daisy?

This video right here goes over the true differences between the two, & also goes over any of the misconceptions people have of them:

 

[Iridium]

For upsets at Glitch 6 so far:

Squerk 2-0 ESAM
Biddy 2-0 Pink Fresh
JeBB 2-1 MVD
Juice 2-0 Dark Wizzy

Stream 1
Stream 2

Something good to go on into tomorrow.

And the brackets.

 

[ZephyrZ]

It's mainly because the compensation they gave him for system changes don't really help or do anything for him. M2 as a character received major nerfs and some minor ones. Not only that but m2 was always a character with poor OoS options and nerfing shield grab doesnt help at all. Losing kill confims dont help. Losing combos dont help. I really could care less if he could dash and do dtilt (which ahs more end lag) that doesnt address him problems. The new nair is trash.. Shadowball is good cool. Not going to play m2 for shadowball when you can just play lucario. He's a massive floaty character who dies early and isnt as rewarded for getting hits as he was in sm4sh. But keep telling us how awesome m2 is while no top mewtwo player plays him. I love that.

Does it really matter if you lose Jab kill confirms when you have two kill throws, Shadow Ball, amazing edge guard abilities and that Forward Air? Its not like he struggles to get kills all of a sudden. Since I mentioned it he also benefits from the easier edge guarding in this game, both because his offstage game is amazing and because his recovery is amazing as well, so it hasn't all been losses for him. Being floaty also isn't that much of an issue when he still has Teleport and great air dodges to escape juggle situations.

Comparing him to Lucario is also just kind of silly, they play almost nothing alike.

 

[Rizen]

Does it really matter if you lose Jab kill confirms when you have two kill throws, Shadow Ball, amazing edge guard abilities and that Forward Air? Its not like he struggles to get kills all of a sudden. Since I mentioned it he also benefits from the easier edge guarding in this game, both because his offstage game is amazing and because his recovery is amazing as well, so it hasn't all been losses for him. Being floaty also isn't that much of an issue when he still has Teleport and great air dodges to escape juggle situations.

Comparing him to Lucario is also just kind of silly, they play almost nothing alike.

Does Mewtwo have Dtilt confirms?

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Hmm...Does this count as an upset?

Jebb 2-1 MVD

Palu can be a somewhat difficult MU for Snake, anyone else think that?

 

[J0eyboi]

Being floaty also isn't that much of an issue when he still has Teleport and great air dodges to escape juggle situations.

Teleport I'll give you, but Mewtwo's airdodges are mediocre at best. Directional influence doesn't save his neutral airdodge from having an FAF of 52. Combined with having a really bad hurtbox and no good combo breakers, his disadvantage really sucks now.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Does it really matter if you lose Jab kill confirms when you have two kill throws, Shadow Ball, amazing edge guard abilities and that Forward Air? Its not like he struggles to get kills all of a sudden. Since I mentioned it he also benefits from the easier edge guarding in this game, both because his offstage game is amazing and because his recovery is amazing as well, so it hasn't all been losses for him. Being floaty also isn't that much of an issue when he still has Teleport and great air dodges to escape juggle situations.

Comparing him to Lucario is also just kind of silly, they play almost nothing alike.

They don't play a like but if I'm going to play around shadowball I'd much rather have aura sphere. Yes losing kill confirms matters you legit listed everything he could do im sm4sh is likr well we don't have the kill confirms. Well fair is slightly nerfed as is dtilt and nair but hey at least we have shadowball and can edge guard....Our OoS options are still trash and we still a giant hurtbox but hey we can dash up dtilt now...


Oh I missed one m2 player. Props to him for winning a monthly...didn't lil mac win a pretty nice sized tourney as well?

 

[The_Bookworm]

Looks like ESAM got his revenge on MVD:
https://smashboards.com/threads/ssbu-tournament-results.464865/post-22935900

I checked, and apparently ESAM used Samus to 3-0 MVD in winner's finals. He used Samus to take the first two games of grand finals, narrowly lost the next two games, then used Pikachu to finish him for the 3-2 victory.

Does Mewtwo have Dtilt confirms?

I am pretty sure he still does. With Shadow Ball traveling slower, SDX has demonstrated confirms with uncharged and slightly charged Shadow Ball as well.

They don't play a like but if I'm going to play around shadowball I'd much rather have aura sphere. Yes losing kill confirms matters you legit listed everything he could do im sm4sh is likr well we don't have the kill confirms. Well fair is slightly nerfed as is dtilt and nair but hey at least we have shadowball and can edge guard....Our OoS options are still trash and we still a giant hurtbox but hey we can dash up dtilt now...


Oh I missed one m2 player. Props to him for winning a monthly...didn't lil mac win a pretty nice sized tourney as well?

He still has KO confirms, while at the same time Confusion's changes grants him a new KO confirm. F-air got it's range slightly increased, so there is also that as well. I feel Mewtwo got changes similar to Fox in that he is more glass and more cannon than in SSB4, while at the same time got revamped in a similar vein as Captain Falcon (who is mad underrated imo).


Here are other echo fighter differences:

0 Note
+ Buff
- Nerf


0 Richter's Holy Water has an aura effect, rather than Simon's flame effect.
------- - It does not forcibly detonate explosives, like the bombs of the three Links.
------- + It can block and deal damage to Red Pikmin.

Virtually no difference outside of this. Pretty much identical characters.



- DSamus is slightly taller than Samus due to her levatating from the ground in most of her moves and animations.
-------- + Her shield is slightly bigger than Samus' to compensate (11 -> 11.7).
- Her double jump animation has her arms spread out, making it slightly easier to hit when midair.
0 For every move that deals an flame effect for Samus, has an electric effect for DSamus. There isn't much that differs from there.
-------- + May create some very situational / minor combo setups she has over Samus.
-------- - The additional stun makes it slightly easier to properly DI her KO moves.
+ Both of DSamus' rolls are slightly faster (35 -> 32 (forward), 40 -> 37 (back)). The difference is minimal.
-------- - Dark Samus is more vulnerable during ending lag due to her larger hurtboxes when rolling.
- Her forward smash has slightly less range than Samus'.
+ Her up smash makes it can catch opponents at a lower height.
0 She fires her Charge Shot and Missiles at a lower elevation. This should be the main thing to consider when choosing a Samus for a specific matchup.
-------- + It makes it slightly easier to catch smaller opponents. For example, DSamus' Charge Shot will hit a crouching Pichu or a Pikachu hanging from the ledge.
-------- - It makes it slightly harder to hit opponents midair, especially for those who short hop a lot.

There differences, while minor, is significant enough to consider which Samus you use for specific matchups (though there are some matchups where their differences doesn't matter). Their roll differences is honestly so minor, people put that difference way out of proportion imo. DSamus is better suited for smaller characters (thanks to her projectiles and up smash hitting lower), while Samus should be used for larger characters (thanks to her projectiles hitting higher and dealing flame effects). If I am to choose one who is better, I would DSamus due to the convenience of her up smash hitting lower, but there are matchups where you would want to choose Samus over DSamus.



His forward tilt and jab finisher are now identical to Pit, which is an overall buff for DPit. Fun fact: apparently his up throw was about to have less ending lag than Pit's (38 -> 33), but that was immediately patched in 1.1.0.

0 His Silver Arrow has noticeably different properties.
-------- + Silver Bow deals considerably more damage (3.2% -> 5.5 (uncharged), 8.6 -> 14% (fully charged)), and launches opponents at a lower angle (60° -> 45°), allowing it to KO more effectively.
-------- + It travels slightly faster and further.
-------- - It lasts for a shorter amount of time, and its trajectory cannot be controlled as much.
0 His Electroshock Arm has different effects that makes it better overall.
-------- 0 It has an electric effect.
-------- + It deals more damage (11% -> 12% (grounded), 9% -> 9.5% (aerial)), although with lower knockback values by comparison (grounded: 100 base/72 scaling -> 99/67, aerial: 90 base/72 scaling -> 90/58).
-------- - The aerial version has slightly more ending lag upon activation (52 -> 58).
-------- + It sends opponents in a lower angle (80° -> 40°). This significantly improves it's KO power at the ledge and sends the opponents offstage, which is where DPit wants the opponent to be. This lower angle also significantly improves it's edgeguarding capability.
-------- - It's lower angle makes it KO later in center stage and in the top platform of Battlefield.

While they had these differences in SSB4, those differences are more significant in Ultimate's engine, especially considering that DPit's arrows got big buffs from SSB4. Some may say that Pit's arrows being easier to control makes him better than DPIt (and it does make him a bit better in some matchups), I think the fact that DPIt's arrows are a better neutral tool and his Electroshock Arm being a better move overall, should also be considered as well.



She now stands in the same height as Marth. Her up tilt will now move her forward slightly, and she no longer keeps her momentum on her jab and up tilt, making them identical to Marth.

0 She has a consistent blade, rather than having a sweetspot at the tip and sourspots throughout like Marth's.
-------- + This allows her to deal consistent damage throughout her blade.
-------- + This allows her to not rely on frequently spacing her blade, especially helpful in the movement based metagame of Ultimate.
-------- - She does not get the extreme reward of landing tipper hitboxes.
0 Her up tilt has a unique timing-based sweetspot.
-------- + On the later half of the slash, the attack does more damage while also having weaker knockback. The combination of less knockback and more damage allows her up tilt to rack more damage than Marth’s as long as she is facing away from her opponent.
-------- - Since the timing-based sweetspot deals less knockback, it can not be used to reliably KO as much as Marth’s up tilt.
+ Her Shield Breaker gives her slightly more momentum in the air, like in SSB4.

She seems to be the better of the two in this game, as the increased mobility of the cast makes it harder for Marth to space against the opponent, despite having impressive mobility herself. The nerf to their jab also harms a lot of Marth's combo ability and KO setups he has over Lucina in SSB4.



0 Flame effects with Roy are wind/slash effects with Chrom.
0 He has a consistent blade, rather than having a sweetspot at the base and sourposts throughout like Roy's.
-------- + This allows him to deal consistent damage throughout his entire blade. Due to retaining most of the combos and confirms Roy has, this effectively gives him a better damage output overall.
-------- + This allows him to better space out the opponent and KO them at any range (most notably with jab and forward tilt), due to the lack of a sourspot. This gives him a much more consistent KO power.
-------- - However, he loses the increased KO power of Roy's sweetspots, although his remains strong. A few combos exclusive to Roy's sourspots are also not accessible.
+ His forward tilt makes him move slightly forward. This effectively increases its range.
0 He has an entirely different up special called Soaring Slash. It is a move similar to Ike's Aether, but has notable differences. Instead of throwing his sword up, he does a overhead slash that translates to the rest of the move. It provides him less protection, but the move transitions overall faster.
-------- + It deals more damage than Blazer and has a landing hitbox. Combined with the fact that it can be combo'ed into it, makes it an effective damage racker.
-------- + It has a sacrificial KO move that KOs as early as 0%, and it will always KO the opponent before Chrom. Combined with the fact, again, that it can be combo'ed into, makes it a devastating comeback move, and it also makes it more riskier to intercept than with Blazer.
-------- - Despite it traveling higher vertically, it has almost no horizontal distance, making it more susceptible to gimps and water-based edgeguarding tools. This makes it an overall worse recovery move.
-------- 0 It has different super armor effects: does not have intangibility on frame 9 and its super armor does not start until frame 10 (compared to Blazer's super armor starting at frame 4). However, the super armor lasts significantly longer (6 -> 20).
-------- - It's first hit comes out one frame slower than Blazer's (frame 9 -> 10). It also has less onstage KO power, making it a less rewarding OoS option in higher percents.

Since the release of the game, the benefits of the consistent blade and his own up special has labeled him better than Roy, despite the negative views of him in the pre-release days. We already talked enough about Chrom in this thread (to the point where I have no idea about the point of making this differences chart lol), so lets move on.



+ His walking and dashing speed 10% faster than Ryu, sharing the same run speed as Mario, Squirtle, and Bayonetta. This is significant, especially since Ryu's run speed is unchanged from SSB4.
0 Held jab is Inazuma Kick, a double-hitting axe kick much like Ryu's up throw.
------- - It is somewhat hard to land by itself, as its effective range tends to overlap with his close variant.
------- + However, special command inputs (mentioned later) makes it an overall more effective tool.
------- + It deals a large amount of shield damage.
0 Ken's held forward tilt is his far standing medium punch, a straight with his right arm, as opposed to Ryu's Collarbone Breaker.
------- + Held forward tilt is faster and deals more knockback at a lower angle.
------- - Held forward tilt has less range and far less shield damage.
- Ken's forward smash is based off of his standing heavy kick introduced in Super Street Fighter II Turbo. It has less range and does not make Ken travel forwards. It also has slightly less base knockback.
+ Due to it being a kick rather than a knee, the range of his neutral air is increased.
0 Ken's up aerial is based off of his neutral jumping light kick, a kick straight upwards.
-------- - It deals considerably less knockback, which hinders its KO potential.
-------- + However, it much better for combos, which is also combined with aerial cancel special move mechanic.
+ His back throw, Hell Wheel, has him roll backwards twice, allowing him to cover more distance and move closer to the edge of stages from farther away.
+ He has more command inputs, offering more confirms and ways to deal more damage and pressure.
-------- + He has Oosoto Mawashi Geri, an outward roundhouse kick from Super Street Fighter II Turbo similar to Ryu's standing held neutral attack that can be cancelled into Inazuma Kick by holding the attack button, letting him use his special cancels without committing to the potential endlag of Shoryuken and Tatsumaki Senpukyaku and mix up his attacks. Inazuma Kick also deals a fair amount of shield damage, making it much riskier to block Ken during his blockstrings.
-------- + He also has his Nata Otoshi Geri, a swiping roundhouse kick from Super Street Fighter II Turbo with a unique input (forward, down forward, down, special/attack) that Ryu does not have. He can cancel either the startup of the move or after the first hit and change it into his Inazuma Kick by holding the attack button. Its low knockback and angle make it useful for combos, leading into down smash, forward smash, or a Shoryuken.
- His Hadoken deals less damage than Ryu's version. He also doesn't have access to Ryu's Shakunetsu Hadoken, meaning that he lacks a multi-hit projectile.
0 His Tatsumaki Senpukyaku has multi-hit properties.
-------- + If all hits connect, it deals more damage.
-------- + It has less endlag, allowing for followups after the move is complete.
-------- - It does significantly less knockback compared to Ryu's.
-------- - It connects less reliably than Ryu's, and lacks a final hit, making it punishable.
0 His Shoryuken has noticeably different properties.
-------- - It deals less knockback than Ryu's equivalent and hits at a slightly more horizontal angle.
-------- + Holding the special attack input performs a Heavy Shoryuken, which hits more than 2 times, and has a flame effect.
-------- + Although it KOs later, it deals more damage and has powerful hitboxes throughout the move in contrast to Ryu's Shoryuken losing strength the longer it is out. It can also drag enemies upwards, letting it kill earlier when close to the top.
-------- + Ken can travel more horizontally during his Heavy Shoryuken. This makes certain combos possible and horizontal recoveries easier.
- Ken does not lunge forward as far in his Focus Attack, slightly hindering its range.

The pair of echo fighters with the most differences, and it seems like Ken is simply the superior of the two. Having access to a faster ground speed, more combo routes, and slightly more range as a result of using more kick moves, is huge. He does lose some of the raw power Ryu has, but he is still very powerful in his own right.

 

[fozzy fosbourne]

Updated tier list from komorikiri

前回携帯で作ったのを消してパソコンから作成してより細かく考えてみました。上下左右差は今回もなしで。
見た目的にB+が「普通くらい」なんですが実際はB+から優勝を十分狙える範囲なのではないかなと思います。
何かの参考になれば...
I remaked SSBU tier list. and no order in same rank. pic.twitter.com/B1kr9xKDVF

— 古森霧 (@komorikiri_Ace) January 19, 2019

This is actually pretty different than a lot of the western lists. Not a lot of people play greninja or shulk at a high level so they have been something I’ve been curious about

 

[Untouch]

Updated tier list from komorikiri

前回携帯で作ったのを消してパソコンから作成してより細かく考えてみました。上下左右差は今回もなしで。
見た目的にB+が「普通くらい」なんですが実際はB+から優勝を十分狙える範囲なのではないかなと思います。
何かの参考になれば...
I remaked SSBU tier list. and no order in same rank. pic.twitter.com/B1kr9xKDVF

— 古森霧 (@komorikiri_Ace) January 19, 2019

This is actually pretty different than a lot of the western lists. Not a lot of people play greninja or shulk at a high level so they have been something I’ve been curious about

Pikachu, Marth and Toon Link that low is... odd.

 

[Rizen]

Updated tier list from komorikiri

前回携帯で作ったのを消してパソコンから作成してより細かく考えてみました。上下左右差は今回もなしで。
見た目的にB+が「普通くらい」なんですが実際はB+から優勝を十分狙える範囲なのではないかなと思います。
何かの参考になれば...
I remaked SSBU tier list. and no order in same rank. pic.twitter.com/B1kr9xKDVF

— 古森霧 (@komorikiri_Ace) January 19, 2019

This is actually pretty different than a lot of the western lists. Not a lot of people play greninja or shulk at a high level so they have been something I’ve been curious about

Do they not have s in Japan?

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Why do so many top players think is so bad now? I mean he needs to be played a lot differently from Smash from what I have heard...but how possibly bad could he got of nerfed to be considered a bottom 3 character?

 

[Guido65]

Do they not have s in Japan?

Characters in the same rank aren't ordered.

 

[MG_3989]

Pikachu, Marth and Toon Link that low is... odd.

Yeah I don’t understand it especially with Lucina, Ylink, and Pichu being high tiers. I mean tier list always have a lot of personal bias so there is that.

I’ve seen Marth and Tlink really low on Wetern tier lists too though, so while it doesn’t make sense it’s not like it’s not somewhat of a trend. I think Marth and Tlink are really good characters and if we were to run it through a simulator with perfect spacing and reflexes I think Marth would be the best swordie in the game and it wouldn’t be close. I know humans aren’t computers but as the game goes on people will get better spacing, reflexes, and feel for the game and I think Marth has nowhere to go but up. His potential with tipper is insane and while right now nobody is taking full advantage of it and people are opting for Lucina I think Marth may be better long term

 

[Frihetsanka]

I know humans aren’t computers but as the game goes on people will get better spacing, reflexes, and feel for the game and I think Marth has nowhere to go but up.

The issue is that other people can also space to avoid the tippers, and the overall mobility has increased. One of the main reasons Marth was considered better (by many, not by all) in Smash 4 was because he had some unique tricks that he could do like Lucina couldn't, such as jab 1 to tipper f-tilt (Lucina's f-tilt kills later), which, as far as I know, are removed in Ultimate.

Overall, Marth seems worse than Lucina (and by a larger margin than Marth > Lucina in Smash 4), but I don't think it's a 20 spot difference.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Why do so many top players think is so bad now? I mean he needs to be played different ly from Smash from what I have heard...but how possibly bad could he got of nerfed to be considered a bottom 3 character?

Because Fatality is pretty much the only player who understands the new Falcon. He requires more technical skill to master. SSB4 Falcon was never that hot in Japan in the first place.

 

[Ark of Silence101]

The issue is that other people can also space to avoid the tippers, and the overall mobility has increased. One of the main reasons Marth was considered better (by many, not by all) in Smash 4 was because he had some unique tricks that he could do like Lucina couldn't, such as jab 1 to tipper f-tilt (Lucina's f-tilt kills later), which, as far as I know, are removed in Ultimate.

Overall, Marth seems worse than Lucina (and by a larger margin than Marth > Lucina in Smash 4), but I don't think it's a 20 spot difference.

I know this is early meta and everything is subject to change with balance patches and the 6 DLC characters, but if we go by current results alone, then outclasses by a good margin, whereas, again going by current results, isn't outclassing as much as people think he should be.

 

[MG_3989]

The issue is that other people can also space to avoid the tippers, and the overall mobility has increased. One of the main reasons Marth was considered better (by many, not by all) in Smash 4 was because he had some unique tricks that he could do like Lucina couldn't, such as jab 1 to tipper f-tilt (Lucina's f-tilt kills later), which, as far as I know, are removed in Ultimate.

Overall, Marth seems worse than Lucina (and by a larger margin than Marth > Lucina in Smash 4), but I don't think it's a 20 spot difference.

That’s true but there will always be players who have impeccable spacing and reflexes that are even better than other pros and I still think Marth may be able to serve them better than Lucina. It might not be enough to put him over her on a tier list but they aren’t that far apart. And I didn’t know about the Smash 4 set ups but losing them definitely hurts

 

[ProfessorVincent]

The issue is that other people can also space to avoid the tippers, and the overall mobility has increased.

This has been said a good amount, but disadvantage in this game is also worse. It is pretty hard to get a tipper in neutral, but not that hard in advantage. I know that most people are rating Lucina higher, but I've yet to understand how Marth doesn't end up better by getting tippers almost consistently in advantage.

 

[MG_3989]

This has been said a good amount, but disadvantage in this game is also worse. It is pretty hard to get a tipper in neutral, but not that hard in advantage. I know that most people are rating Lucina higher, but I've yet to understand how Marth doesn't end up better by getting tippers almost consistently in advantage.

Yeah this is what I’m thinking. There are certainly people out there who can land tipper after tipper when they’re dictating the match and have the spacing done to a science. I’m not saying Marth is better than Lucina but played optimally I think Marth has the potential to be better. Losing his sour spot combos hurts but the tipper still is a huge advantage when used right. I just don’t get why he’s falling so far below Lucina and other sword characters (especially Roy who has a similar mechanic that’s arguably more unintuitive for a sword character). I honestly don’t even see people using Marth

 

[Nidtendofreak]

This has been said a good amount, but disadvantage in this game is also worse. It is pretty hard to get a tipper in neutral, but not that hard in advantage. I know that most people are rating Lucina higher, but I've yet to understand how Marth doesn't end up better by getting tippers almost consistently in advantage.

If I had to guess, he has a harder time getting into advantage in the first place because sourspots are not as good at securing advantage. On top of that, the difference in reward in advantage is not as large as it was in SSB4 between the two because of the lessor disadvantage stage in this game. So Lucina has an easier time gaining/staying in advantage stage for multiple reasons and an easier time killing KOs off of stray hits (like, random Lucina Fsmashs are much more frightening than random Marth Fsmashes because the whole blade is killing pretty darn early). Marth gets... probably a handful more combos with sourspot > sweetspot stuff (lost a bunch from SSB4 though, haven't actually looked closely into what he does have left) and a little bit stronger advantage state. To put random numbers to it, Lucina has a 15% easier time transitioning from neutral to advantage, while Marth has a 7.5% better advantage state.

I'd imagine Lucina is better at edgeguarding as well. Its rare you need the extra power from a tipper in a successful edgeguard to secure the kill, but hitting a sourspot could mean that the opponent still manges to make it back. And edgeguarding is looking like its going to be a big deal in this game.

 

[MG_3989]

If I had to guess, he has a harder time getting into advantage in the first place because sourspots are not as good at securing advantage. On top of that, the difference in reward in advantage is not as large as it was in SSB4 between the two because of the lessor disadvantage stage in this game. So Lucina has an easier time gaining/staying in advantage stage for multiple reasons and an easier time killing KOs off of stray hits (like, random Lucina Fsmashs are much more frightening than random Marth Fsmashes because the whole blade is killing pretty darn early). Marth gets... probably a handful more combos with sourspot > sweetspot stuff (lost a bunch from SSB4 though, haven't actually looked closely into what he does have left) and a little bit stronger advantage state. To put random numbers to it, Lucina has a 15% easier time transitioning from neutral to advantage, while Marth has a 7.5% better advantage state.

I'd imagine Lucina is better at edgeguarding as well. Its rare you need the extra power from a tipper in a successful edgeguard to secure the kill, but hitting a sourspot could mean that the opponent still manges to make it back. And edgeguarding is looking like its going to be a big deal in this game.

I definitely understand why Lucina is better right now. I mean that’s why she’s my secondary and not Marth. I just don’t know why nobody is using Marth right now and I think he has nowhere to go but up in this game. While the tipper can be a disadvantage it could be a huge advantage even without set-ups into it. You’re not gonna be hitting as many stray fsmashes etc... but if somebody can consistently land tipper moves they have the ability to kill 30%-40% earlier than Lucina. I know it’s niche I just don’t know why there isn’t anyone playing him

 

[Rizen]

I know this is early meta and everything is subject to change with balance patches and the 6 DLC characters, but if we go by current results alone, then outclasses by a good margin,

That's a bad way to look at clones because they steal each other's results. Most clones are close enough they should be ranked together rather than have results split between 2 identical characters. There are some exceptions like Ryu/Ken and Chrom/Roy who are different enough to be separate. In the case of Marcina I find it hard to believe characters with identical stats and moves would be a tier or more apart. Lucina's the better but she's basically Marth and vice versa.

 

[TTTTTsd]

If you were to ask me why I think the perception right now is that Lucina is superior, I would probably answer that it is a direct result of Marth's strongest setups into tippered attacks being absent in this game, namely Jab.

A common argument in S4 was centered around consistency and the difficulty of hitting tippers constantly, and I didn't agree with it primarily because you almost always could out of a jab at low or mid %, even more so with a tippered jab, and since MArth jab was so good, this was easy to find. Certainly, Lucina misses the old jab, but not as much as Marth. It gave him a defining edge that allowed him to maximize his reward on hit from one of his best neutral tools, and gave him, dare I say, consistent ways to link into tippers for big damage and strong positioning. So, naturally, without this, the perception of him at the moment is going to be skewed based on this. If something is found that allows him to work similarly, he'll likely move ahead. Otherwise a lot of people will probably view him as weaker overall.

 

[The_Bookworm]

If I had to guess, he has a harder time getting into advantage in the first place because sourspots are not as good at securing advantage. On top of that, the difference in reward in advantage is not as large as it was in SSB4 between the two because of the lessor disadvantage stage in this game. So Lucina has an easier time gaining/staying in advantage stage for multiple reasons and an easier time killing KOs off of stray hits (like, random Lucina Fsmashs are much more frightening than random Marth Fsmashes because the whole blade is killing pretty darn early). Marth gets... probably a handful more combos with sourspot > sweetspot stuff (lost a bunch from SSB4 though, haven't actually looked closely into what he does have left) and a little bit stronger advantage state. To put random numbers to it, Lucina has a 15% easier time transitioning from neutral to advantage, while Marth has a 7.5% better advantage state.

I'd imagine Lucina is better at edgeguarding as well. Its rare you need the extra power from a tipper in a successful edgeguard to secure the kill, but hitting a sourspot could mean that the opponent still manges to make it back. And edgeguarding is looking like its going to be a big deal in this game.

The main reason behind Marth's unpopularity imo, is because he is harder to pick up and master than Lucina. The mindset of players now is that Lucina is right now showing to be the better of the two, why bother play the harder to play version if he is worse? This easy to pick up nature applies in SSB4 despite Marth being the superior of the two in that game, which is why we see more pocket Lucinas than Marths in that game as well.

The early metagame is going to be filled with characters that are easy to pick up and offer a lot in advantage, which is the main reason why Pichu is so popular now, and why pre-patch SSB4 Diddy was more popular than pre-patch SSB4 Sheik.

 

[Frihetsanka]

I just don’t know why nobody is using Marth right now and I think he has nowhere to go but up in this game.

Mr. E is hardly a nobody.

 

[MG_3989]

Mr. E is hardly a nobody.

This is true I haven’t been following him. My point was just that Marth seems really underrepresented in this game and that there are reasons to use him which I think we all know already

 

[ZephyrZ]

Teleport I'll give you, but Mewtwo's airdodges are mediocre at best. Directional influence doesn't save his neutral airdodge from having an FAF of 52. Combined with having a really bad hurtbox and no good combo breakers, his disadvantage really sucks now.

You're right, calling his air dodge "good" is pretty misleading, but I think it complements his air dodge well. However Teleport compliments it and covers its weaknesses (aerial endlag) by giving him an alternative when he's far from the ground. Meanwhile when he's close to the ground he can cancel the endlag by landing with and still reap its unique benefits, being DI and stealth.

He's really vulnerable to combos and strings now that he doesn't have a free escape option, I can't deny that. Because of his inability to deal with immediate pressure I'd agree he has one of the poorer disadvatage states in the game. However I don't think "floatiness" is a huge issue for him.

They don't play a like but if I'm going to play around shadowball I'd much rather have aura sphere. Yes losing kill confirms matters you legit listed everything he could do im sm4sh is likr well we don't have the kill confirms. Well fair is slightly nerfed as is dtilt and nair but hey at least we have shadowball and can edge guard....Our OoS options are still trash and we still a giant hurtbox but hey we can dash up dtilt now...

Lucario is still a poor comparison. Lucario has aura and Aura Sphere combos while Mewtwo has much better ground movement. I'm not qualified to speak much on Lucario but he has more limited ground movement while Mewtwo has the option to use his run speed to turn aggressive when he uses his zoning to create the oppurtunity to do so. In fact comparing the two moves in general is kind of sketchy since the usefulness of Aura Sphere fluctuates heavy depending on Lucario's percentage, making comparisons kind of weird.

Yes he could edge guard well in Smash 4, but he's better at it now that his opponents only get one air dodge. Yes he had a good recovery in 4 but again, its even more important now that he only gets one air dodge. Losing some combos and kill confirms might hurt a little bit but he still has a powerful punish game and great kill power regardless. It's not like the nerfs he recieved neutered everything that made him great.

 

[Foie]

No, HBox is just a amazing player and the Chrom player made lots of mistakes.

However, HBox maining Jigglypuff and being a great player is good for Jigglypuff in general. This is the number 1 thing that will decide tier placements this time I feel, top players dedicated to a character. I would say for example that Jigglypuff is in general worse than Diddy, but due to HBox playing Jigglypuff, and ZeRo neglecting Diddy for Cloud, Jigglypuff might just rise above Diddy therefore.

This is also why Link will likely end up better than his smaller counterparts, Salem and other top players maining him. I still personally think that Young Link, and especially Toon Link are actually better characters.

Not sure I agree with this. There's a theory out there that the reason Jiggly was so terrible all of smash 4's life cycle was because Hbox wrecked some noobs at e3. If Hbox outperforms relative to Jiggly's strength then she could receive the same treatment as last game. (This is of course, assuming that Jiggly is objectively a significantly unexpected character, which I do believe)

A skilled dedicated main does a ton for character development, but a bad character ultimately is a bad character.

 

[Ffamran]

Pikachu, Marth and Toon Link that low is... odd.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but a lot of Toon Link players and pre-Ultimate Link players for that matter dropped him for young Link. It kind of makes sense, though, and it was talked about before. Young Link has pre-Ultimate Link's moveset while also being Melee young Link, so he is faster in general, especially in fall speed compared to Toon Link where some might consider Toon Link as a replacement for young Link after Melee until he returned for Ultimate.

Hayato still plays Toon Link and there's also another Hayato who plays Toon Link. I can't remember what region the other Hayato is from, though. Twitch chat asked about a Hayato who was playing Toon Link on stream a week or two ago and I think it was juddy96 who said it was a different Hayato, but Hayato still plays Toon Link. I hope that wasn't confusing. Not sure about the other Toon Link mains in Japan like Ri-ma and Sigma.

Edit here: Ri-ma might, probably, maybe still plays Toon Link. Here's two, online matches of Ri-ma vs. KEN's Sonic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JX-5I6vNgKc, and Ri-ma vs. Rozen!'s Ike and Cloud: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LAA-p_wUnZw. I say this since this tournament was from almost a month ago.

Anyway, point being is that Toon Link is losing some representation. Does not help with how large the roster is in this game nor does it help that there's three Links each with their own little quirks.

Do they not have s in Japan?

I have no idea if this is a rhetorical question or not. Shogun and Souther among others, new and old Snakes. There's only room for one Boss and one Snake. Speaking of which, the Boss as a Snake echo would have been pretty awesome and they could easily solve censoring issues by not unzipping her sneaking suit because who freaking does that in the middle of a fight.

Incidentally, Souther played Captain Falcon in SSB4, but like Shogun, he went back to Snake. I couldn't find much on Eda, Pichi, or Saiya. That is to say, I don't even know if they still play Smash.

Because Fatality is pretty much the only player who understands the new Falcon. He requires more technical skill to master. SSB4 Falcon was never that hot in Japan in the first place.

SETHsational, a Michigan player, still plays Capt. and does well with him. It's just the Midwest exists and only exists.

 

[BunbUn129]

Speaking of echoes vs their parent fighters, I find it ironic that Pikachu, a character whose viability and potential have been memes since Smash 4 and maybe even Brawl, and a character who hasn't known the top-tier since 64, when he finally has his chance to be a top-tier, that chance gets spoiled by the existence of a smaller, faster (frame data and aerial mobility-wise), more powerful version of himself.

I know Pichu isn't officially an echo-fighter, but he's nonetheless close enough to the bigger rat to warrant a comparison.

Pichu has better results and that will likely remain so since he has a kill option, and he's more tailored to fighting fast-fallers, who have traditionally been in the upper echelons of the cast in every smash game. Pikachu's advantage lies in being able to play the long-game better since he can camp and recover without suffering recoil damage, but that isn't a big selling point in such a fast-paced meta, and Pichu can already do that well enough.

 

[MapleBeasts]

On the subject of Marth I'm sure he's going to climb the tier lists as players get more acclimatized to the pace of the game. Melee is much faster paced than Ultimate and he was top tier in that game. He still spaces well and has the disjoint of a sword, and sourspot isn't always a bad thing. He can use them to combo more at earlier percents and tipper ftilt and f smash still kill really early in this game. Dair spike is also really strong.