Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Augi]

You don't have to rub it on me. : p

Also kinda forgot about AEMehr and RK, so sorry about that. I'm tired here.

So about Mario vs Dr Mario, I feel like it is too early to determine who is better. On one hand, Mario still has the better mobility, combo game (pretty much the only character who can still reliably latter combo you, other than maybe ZSS), and recovery. On the other hand, Dr. Mario now has more reliable combo routes in this game than in SSB4 (down air autocancel into imagination), has greater damage output in individual hits, a better projectile, and has overall better KO power (his cyclone is actually bonkers in this game).

Im glad someone said something about his Tornado and its not just me, things KO power is insane. Easily killing at like 90-100% when close to the edge.

Doc’s recovery game has gotten a lot better, but Mario is still handily better than him. Tying into the discussion earlier, mobility is such a benefit in Smash in so many different areas (neutral, recovery, combo game) that a heavy character has to have a seriously broken kit to reach the top levels of viability. In this case, I think transplanting Mario’s moveset onto a slow version of himself requires serious buffs on the slow version for the slow version to compete — and Doc still doesn’t. I think it’s especially hard in this case because Mario/Doc’s fairs are bad in neutral, and Doc’s mobility is too low to compensate. Doc pays for the combination of slow speed and bad forward facing aerial hitbox a lot.

I'd agree that overcoming mobility would be Doc's big problem, it does tie him down but I don't think he's completely junked because of it. In regards to Doc's Fair, while a little slowish and not a fast option in neutral, I will say that you should be prepared to die if you get hit by it. It's deceptively one of the strongest Fair attacks in the game. And since it's not a spike like Mario's, (Doc's launches you outward) being on the stage wont save you. I slammed a Ken at like 65/70% clear off the screen from the left middle of an omega stage. Just have to make the hit.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Haven't seen people discuss quite a few characters yet who have been reported as "massively improved". For example; ? Haven't heard a thing about them lately.

 

[Y2Kay]

Yeah I definitely think I’ll do that. There are a ton of tournaments in central NJ too so it won’t be hard finding them. It could only help me improve so why not? And maybe eventually I’ll win one or two, the competitive streak in me likes that idea

Wait u from NJ????


Boyyyyyyyyyyyyyy


https://www.tristatesmash.com/

Next big regional is Forge 1 next Saturday, see you there.

 

[Augi]

Haven't seen people discuss quite a few characters yet who have been reported as "massively improved". For example; ? Haven't heard a thing about them lately.

No, lies, is terrible, nope, not good at all, he cant be, no one should play him, EVER, I MEAN IT, I CANT STAND THAT FAT PENGUIN MOTHE-. *cough* My comedic bias towards him aside, I legit hear he's not great >.>

Is very improved! Her new Phantom is a great tool, but her lightning kicks feel super risky now giving the equivalent of a spitwad's worth of hitstun if you dont land a sweetspot. She feels campy in playstyle to me, but if you watch some pro's play her, they're very aggressive and do quite well... I think she's currently underrated, but she's also not top tier. High, imo.

Too lazy to break down my thoughts on them at this time.

 

[Lord Dio]

Re: stuff about new blood and pros commenting and online and all that stuff
I remember dabuz coming in sometimes, posts by aemehr, rk, kurogane hammer I think stopped by a few times, and san is probably the one who visits/comments on these threads the most in recent years. I clicked on the link to the trela post and after reading it scrolled down to the rest fo the page and was reminded of how many people I remember seeing years ago.
I also generally lurked these threads, learning stuff about the game, and rarely making comments bc I had a somewhat fear that what I had to say either was irrelevant, or wrong. Still lurk, still rarely post, but difference is that I don't really have that comment anxiety anymore, because when I said something wrong, or asked, people corrected me, they answered. I learned from those mistakes.
Making a comment here is (generally) fine, no matter what level, because there's always going to be people willing to debate you on things, correct you, or teach you. There'll likely always be people to tell you why fox is really good, there will always be someone like Thinkaman to talk about why G&W is so, unfortunately, bad, etc.
Also what Thinkaman said in his last line, go offline. Find people to play with. Also go to locals and talk to people there. Just like how offline can help you, offline advice can to.
I'll admit that I'm one of those people who groans whenever I see a comment that appears to be "low-level" or seems to tread the line of what should be posted here, but then I remember, I made those comments when I was learning (and I, uh, still make those types comments nowadays too lol)

 

[MG_3989]

Wait u from NJ????


Boyyyyyyyyyyyyyy


https://www.tristatesmash.com/

Next big regional is Forge 1 next Saturday, see you there.

Oh hell yeah!!! Ready to get bodied or maybe I’ll surprise myself. Who knows? Been training all week so I’ve got that Lucina secondary ready to go if I need it

 

[The_Bookworm]

Haven't seen people discuss quite a few characters yet who have been reported as "massively improved". For example; ? Haven't heard a thing about them lately.

It is a bit too early to tell how each of them fare in competitive play. It kind of the case with everyone else, but considering that these four characters were bottom 10 in SSB4, we don't know how well it translates in Ultimate. Ganondorf briefly enjoyed a time being viewed as a mid tier in the 3DS days, but quickly faded away when the Wii U version came out. That doesn't mean it will happen again, but caution is needed.

Dedede right now is enjoying some decent success from players like Zaki and Big D, but some players don't think it will last.

Ganondorf is kind of a weird subject. Some people thinks he is still bad, while at the same time some professionals like ZeRo, Mew2King, and Dabuz has been optimistic with him. Too early.

Zelda is doing alright in the current moment. More people are optimistic on her than with Ganon overall, although some people do think she is still eh. She is enjoying being able to actually play the playstyle she is designed to be. Not sure how she will fare in the future as she does have a bit of learning curve, but I am personally optimistic.

Not a lot of people plays Wii Fit Trainer, but I think it is because she is an inhertilly unpopular character and not her actually being a bad character. She is a lot more fun in this game than in SSB4 imo. Don't really know what people thinks of her in the current moment (most of them are: "I don't know"), but ZeRo thinks she is good, so there is that.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I agree with the idea of Zelda leaning more towards the campy side of things. She can pull some tricky movement shenanigans with Farore's Wind, but for the most part she doesn't do the whole "chase you down" thing very well, I feel.

Also, is it just me, or is Phantom pretty much everything you want in a ledge trap move?

 

[Untouch]

Haven't seen people discuss quite a few characters yet who have been reported as "massively improved". For example; ? Haven't heard a thing about them lately.

- A lot better overall. M2K thinks he's the best superheavyweight, I don't really agree though (I think it's DK). He still has problems with being camped out and recovering but can actually apply pressure now. Feels mid tier.

- Gordos are a lot better, but still has many of the weaknesses he had in Smash 4. I feel he's going to be combo weight later on when people learn his matchup. Feels low tier.

- Haven't seen much of her to be honest. Still feels like her moves are too slow but overall are more reliable. Feels low-mid tier.

- Feels a lot better. I didn't play her much in 4 but when I did she felt unfinished. This time I feel her hitboxes are solid enough that connecting hits is actually possible. Still has some problems though, she has troubles approaching in neutral. She's just so unpopular so her meta is going to take a while to grow. Feels high-mid tier.

 

[Thinkaman]

Also worth pointing out that my last two rants tie together.

Do you want Nintendo to only focus patches on the top 1% of players? Okay, that's still 100k players, aka "elite smash" aka what we're calling the lower end of discussion here.

Should they focus exclusively on the top 1000 players? Dude, that's 0.01% of the player base.

They should and will focus most of their efforts directly on that 0.01%, because it's "the center of the bullseye"--the best indicator of the overall average and the best indicator of the way things are evolving. But it should be sort of obvious that balancing the game exclusively for one percent of one percent of the players is not strictly the sole end goal in and of itself.

 

[Rizen]

- A lot better overall. M2K thinks he's the best superheavyweight, I don't really agree though (I think it's DK). He still has problems with being camped out and recovering but can actually apply pressure now. Feels mid tier.

The more I hear top players' opinions the less I value them. Not that I'm demeaning them or anything but it's a new game. "Top" level play is still woefully underdeveloped and so is understanding of the game. They've been playing a month just like the rest of us.

As a counterpoint, Ganon's recovery really holds him back. Sure he can make a read and kill you at 50% but he'll also die at 50% offstage. Flame choke being nerfed so Ganon always dies first takes away the threat unless he has a stock lead. Ganon's terrible mobility and frame data also hold him back. He can be very scary but with heavies like DK who has good mobility, sword character frame data, etc, there's no way Ganon's even close to being the best super heavyweight.

 

[MG_3989]

Also worth pointing out that my last two rants tie together.

Do you want Nintendo to only focus patches on the top 1% of players? Okay, that's still 100k players, aka "elite smash" aka what we're calling the lower end of discussion here.

Should they focus exclusively on the top 1000 players? Dude, that's 0.01% of the player base.

They should and will focus most of their efforts directly on that 0.01%, because it's "the center of the bullseye"--the best indicator of the overall average and the best indicator of the way things are evolving. But it should be sort of obvious that balancing the game exclusively for one percent of one percent of the players is not strictly the sole end goal in and of itself.

I get this. I also feel like balancing mostly effects and benefits the top .01% because they actually understand the game and why certain things need to be balanced. Lower tier players, even really good players may call for nerfs on certain moves that are perfectly balanced because they have trouble playing around it. And then of course if you go lower than that to players who really have no idea what’s going on and want things like certain side smashes or Krool nerfed. These players wouldn’t know what they were doing no matter what got nerfed or buffed and they probably wouldn’t even notice. I agree I think focusing balancing changes on the very top percentage of players makes for the best game overall. Balancing isn’t nearly as meaningful to lower tier players (not that the game shouldn’t be balanced at all levels but they won’t understand what a balanced game is anyway and they still won’t play their characters optimally). However I don’t think it should be the players themselves balancing it nor should their opinions have too much weight

 

[The_Bookworm]

Also worth pointing out that my last two rants tie together.

Do you want Nintendo to only focus patches on the top 1% of players? Okay, that's still 100k players, aka "elite smash" aka what we're calling the lower end of discussion here.

Should they focus exclusively on the top 1000 players? Dude, that's 0.01% of the player base.

They should and will focus most of their efforts directly on that 0.01%, because it's "the center of the bullseye"--the best indicator of the overall average and the best indicator of the way things are evolving. But it should be sort of obvious that balancing the game exclusively for one percent of one percent of the players is not strictly the sole end goal in and of itself.

The more I hear top players' opinions the less I value them. Not that I'm demeaning them or anything but it's a new game. "Top" level play is still woefully underdeveloped and so is understanding of the game. They've been playing a month just like the rest of us.

As a counterpoint, Ganon's recovery really holds him back. Sure he can make a read and kill you at 50% but he'll also die at 50% offstage. Flame choke being nerfed so Ganon always dies first takes away the threat unless he has a stock lead. Ganon's terrible mobility and frame data also hold him back. He can be very scary but with heavies like DK who has good mobility, sword character frame data, etc, there's no way Ganon's even close to being the best super heavyweight.

Yeah. ZeRo's recent videos on him bodying with Pichu and him getting bodied by Zack's Bayonetta kind of proves that. (For those who don't understand why I included this detail, watch the videos yourself.)

 

[Gleam]

On the subject of to be pretty blunt while massive improvements have been made to the character and he has a few tournament results under his belt which makes him better than his Brawl/Smash4 counterpart I suppose, I firmly believe that Ganondorf has been, heavily overhyped. Probably because in a sense, those positives we saw at first seemed so good. It was nice to see less lag on his aerials, it was nice to see new kill options with his Smashes, it was nice to see a little more mobility and it was nice just to see OOT Ganondorf again.

But when you get down to it, Ganondorf still suffers from pretty much the same thing he did before. His lack of mobility or projectile means he gets camped like nobody else. His heavy body means he's easy combo food. He's a heavy bait and punish character but gets just as easily punished himself. His recovery is awful and it might just be the fact that I use Ridley who's objective is kick people's rear ends off stage but using Ganon made being edgeguarded feel even more egregious. Maybe the fact that Ganoncide was heavily nerfed, could be broken out of and always killed Ganon first had something to do with it. It took away the man's options.

As someone who used to use Ganondorf and secondary's him even now to a degree, it's hard not to see the major flaws to this character. As a comparison, I still think Ridley is a solid Mid Tier character. He's got several frame datas pointed to a decent character. He's got several tournament results under him including a nice win from Vrey in a 300 man tournament. Some would even go as far as to claim Ridley was a high tier and personally...maybe low high but I'd have to be in either a really good mood or really drunk to believe that.

Ganondorf doesn't have half the results Ridley has and therefore, I'd honestly put him in Low Tier or, at the very best (only because I really want Ganondorf to be decent) low Mid Tier. I think Ganon has too many exploitable flaws to be good and if he is as hyped as people proclaim, he's going to need far more results to prove it. In a sense, no matter how good you might look on paper, if you don't show results for them, it doesn't really matter.

 

[The_Bookworm]

On the subject of to be pretty blunt while massive improvements have been made to the character and he has a few tournament results under his belt which makes him better than his Brawl/Smash4 counterpart I suppose, I firmly believe that Ganondorf has been, heavily overhyped. Probably because in a sense, those positives we saw at first seemed so good. It was nice to see less lag on his aerials, it was nice to see new kill options with his Smashes, it was nice to see a little more mobility and it was nice just to see OOT Ganondorf again.

But when you get down to it, Ganondorf still suffers from pretty much the same thing he did before. His lack of mobility or projectile means he gets camped like nobody else. His heavy body means he's easy combo food. He's a heavy bait and punish character but gets just as easily punished himself. His recovery is awful and it might just be the fact that I use Ridley who's objective is kick people's rear ends off stage but using Ganon made being edgeguarded feel even more egregious. Maybe the fact that Ganoncide was heavily nerfed, could be broken out of and always killed Ganon first had something to do with it. It took away the man's options.

As someone who used to use Ganondorf and secondary's him even now to a degree, it's hard not to see the major flaws to this character. As a comparison, I still think Ridley is a solid Mid Tier character. He's got several frame datas pointed to a decent character. He's got several tournament results under him including a nice win from Vrey in a 300 man tournament. Some would even go as far as to claim Ridley was a high tier and personally...maybe low high but I'd have to be in either a really good mood or really drunk to believe that.

Ganondorf doesn't have half the results Ridley has and therefore, I'd honestly put him in Low Tier or, at the very best (only because I really want Ganondorf to be decent) low Mid Tier. I think Ganon has too many exploitable flaws to be good and if he is as hyped as people proclaim, he's going to need far more results to prove it. In a sense, no matter how good you might look on paper, if you don't show results for them, it doesn't really matter.

It is still very early in competitive play, so even characters that are viewed as great now may end up getting their results dropped as the result of everyone actually being good at the game. It may also be the boost lower ranked characters need. You list off some of his faults, but it should be noted how hugely beneficial using his tilts out of run and the big aerial game buff (should be noted that each of his aerials hit like a truck and deals big shield damage for the decreased lag it got) in terms of approaching and applying pressure. In other words, it is too early to tell if Ganon is truly good or bad.

In a sense, no matter how good you might look on paper, if you don't show results for them, it doesn't really matter.

SSB4 Lucas, Roy, and Falco in a nutshell (with a hint of Yoshi). : p

 

[DJ3DS]

Is there any specifically bad Mu for R.o.b we know of

I can give you a few.

- comfortably outspaces ROB and easily KOes him. Can easily combo and juggle ROB.
- Leaf Shield alone beats almost everything ROB has. Can combo well and has better effective range than ROB.
- Palu juggles ROB for days, and her priority stuffs ROB completely. Not an easy MU.
- Peach can combo ROB for absurd percentages, can edgeguard or ledge trap him, and is very safe if she plays well.
- Completely bullies ROB, and is short enough he completely falls out of ROBs side B.
- Similar to Pichu but not as bad. Side B works here which single handedly makes the MU less annoying.

Though they've been toned down since the last iteration, I also believe ROB still struggles with the old characters like ZSS, Cloud, Duddy and Sheik, just not as badly as before.

 

[Terotrous]

My feeling on Ganon is that he feels like a traditional good heavyweight. You can be winning neutral for like 90% of the game vs him then he hits you twice and you die. However, in most other fighting games, such characters tend to have a few matchups that are just absolutely atrocious and their ability to win a tournament depends heavily on bracket luck (my best guess for who that matchup is for Ganon would be Villager / Isabelle). I think he can do well vs most of the cast but you're probably going to want to have a pocket character who's a little more balanced just in case.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Cannot see Ganon going too far with Link's and Megaman running around.

 

[LancerStaff]

Also worth pointing out that my last two rants tie together.

Do you want Nintendo to only focus patches on the top 1% of players? Okay, that's still 100k players, aka "elite smash" aka what we're calling the lower end of discussion here.

Should they focus exclusively on the top 1000 players? Dude, that's 0.01% of the player base.

They should and will focus most of their efforts directly on that 0.01%, because it's "the center of the bullseye"--the best indicator of the overall average and the best indicator of the way things are evolving. But it should be sort of obvious that balancing the game exclusively for one percent of one percent of the players is not strictly the sole end goal in and of itself.

Isn’t Elite Smash more like top 30% than 1%? Which is what they said that they’d be balancing the game around...

I wouldn’t be so hopeful. Especially since I doubt many actual good matches happen in Elite.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Also worth pointing out that my last two rants tie together.

Do you want Nintendo to only focus patches on the top 1% of players? Okay, that's still 100k players, aka "elite smash" aka what we're calling the lower end of discussion here.

Should they focus exclusively on the top 1000 players? Dude, that's 0.01% of the player base.

They should and will focus most of their efforts directly on that 0.01%, because it's "the center of the bullseye"--the best indicator of the overall average and the best indicator of the way things are evolving. But it should be sort of obvious that balancing the game exclusively for one percent of one percent of the players is not strictly the sole end goal in and of itself.

If Nintendo wants to buff and nerf stuff based on the competitive scene then they need to start a league and actually give patch notes. They shouldn't nerf stuff because of competitive play then pretend like it doesn't exist.

Also they buffs and nerfs should be for both sides. The larger fan base makes up the game gotta show them live too. Mostly though I don't really believe casual players care about balance stuff.

D3 is weird for me I think he's good but I also feel like he's lacking. He's probably mid tier he does have some pretty good stuff he's working with.

 

[Deleted member]

Isn’t Elite Smash more like top 30% than 1%? Which is what they said that they’d be balancing the game around...

I wouldn’t be so hopeful. Especially since I doubt many actual good matches happen in Elite.

50% of elite smash is ness mains that got in because they Pk fire spammed like ness is ridiculously easy to get to elite smash

 

[The_Bookworm]

50% of elite smash is ness mains that got in because they Pk fire spammed like ness is ridiculously easy to get to elite smash

So nothing has changed from SSB4. : p

Makes me wonder if rash and unadjusted balance changes would happen because of Elite Smash. I can imagine if the significant character changes has occurred in the first two weeks (which hasn't happened fortunately), then we would see K. Rool and the Belmonts receive early-SSB4 Greninja level of nerfs. lol

 

[R208]

Isn’t Elite Smash more like top 30% than 1%? Which is what they said that they’d be balancing the game around...

I wouldn’t be so hopeful. Especially since I doubt many actual good matches happen in Elite.

Elite Smash is generally seen as beginning at the top 3.5% of players. Confirmed when Zero reached the cap and when compared to the barrier of entry at the time.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

50% of elite smash is ness mains that got in because they Pk fire spammed like ness is ridiculously easy to get to elite smash

Ah yes, the old laggy online connection. special They land one on you nd somehow you get inescapablely chained by like 4 or 5 In a row for 70-80 damage The more things change....

 

[Deleted member]

Ah yes, the old laggy online connection. special They land one on you nd somehow you get inescapablely chained by like 4 or 5 In a row for 70-80 damage The more things change....

Lol ness mains are going get him nerfed to the ground if they are not careful because if they're is like 50% ness they will probably assume he's broken

 

[L9999]

They buffed PK Fire so they can probably tell it only works on scrubs who don't know how to SDI.

 

[LancerStaff]

Elite Smash is generally seen as beginning at the top 3.5% of players. Confirmed when Zero reached the cap and when compared to the barrier of entry at the time.

Wasn’t he at 4mill and some change? I currently have several characters at 3.2mill in Elite.

 

[MG_3989]

Lol ness mains are going get him nerfed to the ground if they are not careful because if they're is like 50% ness they will probably assume he's broken

Plz plz plz don’t let that happen. He’s finally really good, no nerfs. I’ve waited since Melee

 

[PK Gaming]

Also worth pointing out that my last two rants tie together.

Do you want Nintendo to only focus patches on the top 1% of players? Okay, that's still 100k players, aka "elite smash" aka what we're calling the lower end of discussion here.

Should they focus exclusively on the top 1000 players? Dude, that's 0.01% of the player base.

They should and will focus most of their efforts directly on that 0.01%, because it's "the center of the bullseye"--the best indicator of the overall average and the best indicator of the way things are evolving. But it should be sort of obvious that balancing the game exclusively for one percent of one percent of the players is not strictly the sole end goal in and of itself.

Somewhat tangential but, Overwatch's balance patches are exclusively tailored to high level

The significant amount of patches and general dissatisfaction should speak to how effective they are

 

[KakuCP9]

I genuinely don't understand why y'all are scared of nerfs. If anything, Smash 4 patches were hella conservative on that front (such that the game determent was that Bayo and Cloud weren't toned down enough) with most of top tiers still maintaining their foundational strengths, but with some of their abusive stuff parred back (Rosa nair, Diddy's grab combos, etc). The main short coming of S4 patch was not fixing all the dysfunctional characters, but I have yet to see any characters like that right now other than the Ice climbers ( and they can stay bad in all honesty).

 

[R208]

Wasn’t he at 4mill and some change? I currently have several characters at 3.2mill in Elite.

Nah. His stream title said he's "on the road to 4m" or something. I think it's just a catchy title. GSP doesn't work like that. It doesn't scale infinitely and is capped by total number of players for a specific mode. I don't think even Classic mode, most played mode per GSP values, is at 4m yet.

 

[Rizen]

I started going to weeklies. A few observations:

Wario's really good. His mobility's great, good recovery, kill power, staying power and waft is the clutch factor he needs. I lost to one with YL after hitting him at 140% for him to survive then dying to waft and 70%ish. Wario has the tools to win his bad MUs with swords, and by tools I mean stats and waft. He works well with this engine. In terms of the YL MU, YL has no problem getting chip damage but all that time a bomb is brewing in wario's lower intestine. Wario's hard to hit with a kill move and lives forever while killing early. IMO it's +1 Wario.

Fox is good, duh.

I've changed my stance on the best Link; it's TL. The simple answer is he does the same things YL does but has an easier time. A big part of that is TL's sword swings are much wider than YL's. Sure YL's Fair 1 combos into Usmash but TL's is less punishable, bigger hitbox and kills on its own sooner. It's just easier. The same basically applies to Bair; YL must Bair1, land>Usmash where TL's Bair simply kills anywhere. TL's Uair kills sooner. TL has a kill throw where YL has a stock cap throw at extremely high %s. TL's heavier with better air and run speed so his projectile keep away is easier. His jab's f5 vs YL's f6. YL has all these combo setups but TL hits harder and more easily. It's not like TL completely outclasses YL but his game plan is backed by better stats.

TL's lower results show how big a factor popularity is atm.

 

[J0eyboi]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

This seems rather relevant to this thread.

Also, GSP is a terrible system that isn't actually representative of your skill at the game. Elite Smash almost certainly contains the top 100k players, but it also contains some middling players who were able to cheese their way in.

Unrelated but I looked at the replies to that tweet and are there really people with such limited vocabularies that they don't know what "sensationalize" means?

 

[epicnights]

Yeah. ZeRo's recent videos on him bodying with Pichu and him getting bodied by Zack's Bayonetta kind of proves that. (For those who don't understand why I included this detail, watch the videos yourself.)

ZeRo in particular is an interesting showcase of how top players can struggle and have their opinions shifted based upon their flaws in their play style. I’ll also be using ANTi as a secondary example.

About a week ago, Zero had invited Mew2king over to his stream, and the two of them took turns playing against Samsora online in an arena. Throughout said stream, Zero was clearly struggling to compete against Samsora, while Mew2king, while still losing, seemed to at least fare better than Zero was. At one point, Zero mentioned how he couldn’t figure out what to do against Peach and that the character felt extremely oppressive. Mew2king, analytical as always, quickly advised Zero to try and focus on holding center stage at all times, and to avoid any overextensions that would cost him center stage and throw him back to a more balanced neutral position. Zero responded with something very earnest and honestly eye-opening to me. He looked at Mew2king right in the eyes and he said, “Jason, I get what you’re saying, I’m sure it makes sense. But I’m just not gonna get it. It’ll go in one ear and out the other. I’ve gotta learn it.” To me, it showed that top players, when faced with a character that require a much different play style from their own at an equal skill level, will struggle. Understanding what gear shifts you have to make in a matchup takes time, and being able to actually apply that in a game takes longer. To continue playing like that in high-pressure tournament settings and not default back to your normal playstyle is even harder.

Another, albeit smaller example, is ANTi. On multiple different streams, Anti has played in battle arena rotations with WaDi and other high-level players. During these streams, Anti struggles against Wadi’s ROB, and it’s noticeable in the gameplay and very apparent in his own words. Based upon Anti’s words alone, ROB’s aerials are ‘OD’, his projectiles are ‘wack’, his recovery is ‘mad good’, and side-b is ‘dumb as ****’. For a player like Anti who plays predominantly on conditioning (based on his smash 4 play), a character that plays very Anti-commitial is difficult, especially when ROB also kills surprisingly early and Anti plays Mario and Lucario, both characters that thrive off living to later percents and winning off punishing commitments.

Seeing both ZeRo struggle against Samsora and ANTi struggle against WaDi was quite a sight. With high-level player streams being an opportunity to see the gameplay that builds and cements their fundamental skills, it’s really important to recognize and comprehend how each player’s opinions can be affected by their own playstyle, and consequently, their own flaws. Though, seeing as I’ve been a pot feeder through most of smash 4, and might possibly stay as one through Ultimate as well, this could all very well be a bunch of decoration around what is otherwise a pretty shallow analysis. I dunno.

 

[L9999]

I genuinely don't understand why y'all are scared of nerfs. If anything, Smash 4 patches were hella conservative on that front (such that the game determent was that Bayo and Cloud weren't toned down enough) with most of top tiers still maintaining their foundational strengths, but with some of their abusive stuff parred back (Rosa nair, Diddy's grab combos, etc). The main short coming of S4 patch was not fixing all the dysfunctional characters, but I have yet to see any characters like that right now other than the Ice climbers ( and they can stay bad in all honesty).

Reasons to be scared of nerfs:

1) Being punished for learning a character and pushing them. You play Peach or whoever, and without notice a patch drops and all your effort goes down the drain.

2) Makes characters blander and painful to play. Sheik became incredibly boring and punishing to play after all the nerfs in Smash 4. Honest question, who likes playing Sheik after 2016?

3) The philosophy of the Smash team. Nerfing kill power correlates to #2. Sheik, Diddy, and Bayo cannot kill now. In S4 Sheik got every single kill move she had nerfed since 3DS. They think making this characters have less powerful attacks will make them weaker, in reality they just make matches drag longer and punish the poor devils who want to play this characters.

4) Scrubs influence nerfs. Ganon Side B was likely (and most surely) nerfed because scrubs online die to it. Little Mac Side B was nerfed in Smash 4 because scrubs got wrecked by him on FG. D3 got nerfed because scrubs got wrecked by him. Many scrub killers are suspect of being unfairly nerfed, because this players cannot learn.

Smash 4 was truly patched in the sense it was a mess full of stupid design choices (proof is that tons of mechanics were removed in 3DS and the existence of Hoohah). It was easier to make the broken characters "weaker" than buff half of the worthless roster. And the DLC...it isn't a secret Bayo and Cloud were rushed and nobody tested them. Sakurai and the Smash team were done with Smash 4 by that point.

 

[MG_3989]

Reasons to be scared of nerfs:

1) Being punished for learning a character and pushing them. You play Peach or whoever, and without notice a patch drops and all your effort goes down the drain.

2) Makes characters blander and painful to play. Sheik became incredibly boring and punishing to play after all the nerfs in Smash 4. Honest question, who likes playing Sheik after 2016?

3) The philosophy of the Smash team. Nerfing kill power correlates to #2. Sheik, Diddy, and Bayo cannot kill now. In S4 Sheik got every single kill move she had nerfed since 3DS. They think making this characters have less powerful attacks will make them weaker, in reality they just make matches drag longer and punish the poor devils who want to play this characters.

4) Scrubs influence nerfs. Ganon Side B was likely (and most surely) nerfed because scrubs online die to it. Little Mac Side B was nerfed in Smash 4 because scrubs got wrecked by him on FG. D3 got nerfed because scrubs got wrecked by him. Many scrub killers are suspect of being unfairly nerfed, because this players cannot learn.

Smash 4 was truly patched in the sense it was a mess full of stupid design choices (proof is that tons of mechanics were removed in 3DS and the existence of Hoohah). It was easier to make the broken characters "weaker" than buff half of the worthless roster. And the DLC...it isn't a secret Bayo and Cloud were rushed and nobody tested them. Sakurai and the Smash team were done with Smash 4 by that point.

I just really really really hope this doesn’t happen to PK Fire because people are too bad to play around it. I’ve already seen a TON of unjustified complaining about it and I’ve literally had players jump off stage three times when they saw I was playing Ness. Not looking good atm. It’s a completely fair move and while just one move in Ness’s kit it’s completely intregal to it. My main is finally a high tier viable character and to have that taken away from him over scrubby play, lag, and complaints would be heartbreaking

Disclaimer: this post is coming from an excited and a little biased Ness main but the content is valid

Also Ness continues to have among if not the best tournament results in the game and it seems like more players are picking him up and actually seeing results. Yeah I know it’s early, yeah I heard about the Smash 4 hype, and yeah I know about his recovery problems (which are overblown and I’d take Ness’s recovery over Cloud’s without limit, Chrom’s, Belmont’s, and maybe a couple others). His double jump and movement options in the air including PSI Magnet air dodge maunvers gives him great versatility when recovering and PKT2 can straight up trade stocks or kill while trying to gimp it. Can we at least say he’s solidly high tier now with low top tier potential? Yeah he has potential to drop and he has flaws just like every other current top or high tier character but I think it’s more likely that he’ll stay right where he is.

Again I’m cool with people sleeping on him and not seeing him as a threat and putting him in mid tier or even low mid in some tier lists I’ve seen. That just makes him more dangerous. The results are getting impossible to ignore though and although they’re early and we don’t know how the meta is going to shape up Ness is making a strong statement for a big place in it

 

[NeonNote]

Reasons to be scared of nerfs:

1) Being punished for learning a character and pushing them. You play Peach or whoever, and without notice a patch drops and all your effort goes down the drain.

2) Makes characters blander and painful to play. Sheik became incredibly boring and punishing to play after all the nerfs in Smash 4. Honest question, who likes playing Sheik after 2016?

3) The philosophy of the Smash team. Nerfing kill power correlates to #2. Sheik, Diddy, and Bayo cannot kill now. In S4 Sheik got every single kill move she had nerfed since 3DS. They think making this characters have less powerful attacks will make them weaker, in reality they just make matches drag longer and punish the poor devils who want to play this characters.

4) Scrubs influence nerfs. Ganon Side B was likely (and most surely) nerfed because scrubs online die to it. Little Mac Side B was nerfed in Smash 4 because scrubs got wrecked by him on FG. D3 got nerfed because scrubs got wrecked by him. Many scrub killers are suspect of being unfairly nerfed, because this players cannot learn.

Smash 4 was truly patched in the sense it was a mess full of stupid design choices (proof is that tons of mechanics were removed in 3DS and the existence of Hoohah). It was easier to make the broken characters "weaker" than buff half of the worthless roster. And the DLC...it isn't a secret Bayo and Cloud were rushed and nobody tested them. Sakurai and the Smash team were done with Smash 4 by that point.

I agree with you 100%. Peach in particular I'm worried about. I fear they will look at her results and automatically think that warrants nerfs. She's still one of the hardest characters to master. Those who prove themselves with her in tournaments have put serious dedication and practice into what she can do. She's definitely an example of lots of learning and pushing to be played like that.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I genuinely don't understand why y'all are scared of nerfs. If anything, Smash 4 patches were hella conservative on that front (such that the game determent was that Bayo and Cloud weren't toned down enough) with most of top tiers still maintaining their foundational strengths, but with some of their abusive stuff parred back (Rosa nair, Diddy's grab combos, etc). The main short coming of S4 patch was not fixing all the dysfunctional characters, but I have yet to see any characters like that right now other than the Ice climbers ( and they can stay bad in all honesty).

Diddy's Up Air.

They completely BUTCHERED that move.

There's legit and reasonable concern to be scared of nerfs.

 

[bc1910]

I just really really really hope this doesn’t happen to PK Fire because people are too bad to play around it. I’ve already seen a TON of unjustified complaining about it and I’ve literally had players jump off stage three times when they saw I was playing Ness. Not looking good atm. It’s a completely fair move and while just one move in Ness’s kit it’s completely intregal to it. My main is finally a high tier viable character and to have that taken away from him over scrubby play, lag, and complaints would be heartbreaking

Disclaimer: this post is coming from an excited and a little biased Ness main but the content is valid

Also Ness continues to have among if not the best tournament results in the game and it seems like more players are picking him up and actually seeing results. Yeah I know it’s early, yeah I heard about the Smash 4 hype, and yeah I know about his recovery problems (which are overblown and I’d take Ness’s recovery over Cloud’s without limit, Chrom’s, Belmont’s, and maybe a couple others). His double jump and movement options in the air including PSI Magnet air dodge maunvers gives him great versatility when recovering and PKT2 can straight up trade stocks or kill while trying to gimp it. Can we at least say he’s solidly high tier now with low top tier potential? Yeah he has potential to drop and he has flaws just like every other current top or high tier character but I think it’s more likely that he’ll stay right where he is.

Again I’m cool with people sleeping on him and not seeing him as a threat and putting him in mid tier or even low mid in some tier lists I’ve seen. That just makes him more dangerous. The results are getting impossible to ignore though and although they’re early and we don’t know how the meta is going to shape up Ness is making a strong statement for a big place in it

By what metric does Ness have “among if not the best tournament results in the game”? Judging by the new results database he’s barely top 20.

 

[MG_3989]

By what metric does Ness have “among if not the best tournament results in the game”? Judging by the new results database he’s barely top 20.

I’m basing it on the tournament thread here we’re Ness shows up in almost every top 8 and has won a fair amount in the last week and before that. There was also another database I saw where his results were extremely high. I could be wrong and if I am disregard my post