Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[san.]

One thing that fascinates me is how many bad-against-swords characters are still doing okay in the current meta. I'm mainly thinking of Yoshi and Wario, but there are others too.

Early Smash 4 was actually a poor environment for swords. People thought Marth was mid tier at best. Then they buffed Marth. Then they buffed Lucina. Then they added Cloud. And Corrin. I think the loss of Yoshi's now-joked-about "potential" was less a poor prediction and more about the very landscape changing. The rise of swords correlates with the fall of Yoshi.

But in this game, despite the fact that multiple swords are considered high or top tier, these stubby characters are making an impact. Just what has changed about interactions between swords and stubby non-swords that's letting both thrive? Have the developers finally found the right balance between speed, range, and reward?

This may sound too simple, but I believe the core revolves around the main defensive options characters have, particularly out of shield. Many of these stubby characters have the privilege of having great 3-frame nairs, or low frame fairs/bairs. On the flip side, many of the strong, grounded normals that swordies have are situational out of shield and are used more for poking and juggling, options that can be exploited more easily by those faster characters.

Sword characters still have some great aerials out of shield, but the startup tends to be just high enough to be manageable.

Many stall and fall dairs and downBs have also been buffed in endlag, helping them struggle less against these sword characters (though they will still struggle in those scenarios).

The global increase in speed helps them break zones slightly easier and play the mixup game, despite the normalization of jumpsquats.

Not saying that they will win against swordies, but more global options to avoid getting completely stomped are available to most of them that have the base speed and options.

 

[trickroom]

This may sound too simple, but I believe the core revolves around the main defensive options characters have, particularly out of shield. Many of these stubby characters have the privilege of having great 3-frame nairs, or low frame fairs/bairs. On the flip side, many of the strong, grounded normals that swordies have are situational out of shield and are used more for poking and juggling, options that can be exploited more easily by those faster characters.

Sword characters still have some great aerials out of shield, but the startup tends to be just high enough to be manageable.

I think the fact that nair OoS is such a good option for so many characters is why "every nair is good" is the hot new meme right now, because if you dont look at the cast's nairs through the lens of out-of-shield options, the average 'goodness' of neutral airs is about the same as Sm4sh (at least relative to the cast in each game).

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I think the fact that nair OoS is such a good option for so many characters is why "every nair is good" is the hot new meme right now, because if you dont look at the cast's nairs through the lens of out-of-shield options, the average 'goodness' of neutral airs is about the same as Sm4sh (at least relative to the cast in each game).

This might explain why Rosalina got a completely new nair as well. It's much better as a quick GTFO move, whereas the old one was more of a space control tool than anything else. It took, what, 30 frames to hit in front of her?

 

[Browny]

This is a little disingenuous. Speed absolutely matters, as does every other factor you've brought up. The problem with Sheik in this game has more to do with how terrible she is at killing. She was S tier in Sm4sh for the sole fact that she could back up her combo game and frame data with viable kill options.

That's pretty much agreeing with me.

The speed of her attacks wasn't what made her have killing options, it was the low lag of her weak hits that set it up. Her uair could be frame 20, it wouldn't have affected her KO potential if he dthrow had 25 frames of advantage. Same with bouncing fish, it wasn't a fast move, its just that nair and aerial needles had almost no lag.

Sure it helped that her fast moves set up into the kill moves, but they could have all been frame 1 and i wouldn't have mattered if they had a lot of lag.

 

[NairWizard]

Regardless of what people are 'basing' their impressions on (which is often something you can't know without interrogating them or reading their mind), everyone at least understands that this thread is meant for speculation about what real-life tournaments will be. Everyone agrees that we're talking about offline, so if someone says that a projectile is good due to lack of counterplay, argue with their premise. Contradict what they're saying. Ask them to back it up with data or elaborate, and enter a dialogue about what you find important for winning games of Smash. You can't know if they were thinking of their online experience when they post, unless they say so (which is somewhat rare), so I don't see what the point of your post is. Not only that, but I don't think people say things that are only true online much anyway. The best example that comes to mind is the hype over ROB's viability, because he's broken as hell online, but that argument is actually verifiable with real-life results atm, so...?????

I'm talking about when people say "I just did X on Elite Smash; because of my experience there, I think Y character is" blah blah blah. This happens so much. And sometimes you can tell when it's happening even when people don't explicitly say so.


This thread series is one of the highest-quality in the history of smash discussion. Good things come out of this thread. People like Trifroze, Thinkaman, and Shaya (remember those thank you notes) have posted some amazing observations in this thread series. Dabuz or Trela or other top players sometimes come to comment. We've also had many others do intricate matchup or tournament analyses; FeelMeUp once took inventory of Sheik kill percentages across an entire tournament series.

But sometimes, and by sometimes I mean rather often, this thread devolves into a mess of people circlejerking about their online experiences. What ends up happening then is that the people with real insight don't post, because online is so disparate from live gameplay.

Frankly, I don't care if Ness or Mario or Meta Knight or whoever seems strong to a poster because s/he went from 10k GSP to 4 million.

Your desire to post should be tempered by consideration for what others desire to read.

This thread used to be called "the most strictly moderated thread on smashboards." There was a reason for that. For many of us who value insightful theoretical observation, this thread is the last bastion of hope. When many different people are talking about online experiences, half of us collectively groan and back away, and that isn't a good thing.

 

[The_Bookworm]

IDabuz or Trela or other top players sometimes come to comment.

I don't remember top players (other than San) commenting on the threads. I must be a latecomer. : p

 

[Heracr055]

Trela does rarely, but it happens. I believe it was before your time

 

[Y2Kay]

I'm talking about when people say "I just did X on Elite Smash; because of my experience there, I think Y character is" blah blah blah. This happens so much. And sometimes you can tell when it's happening even when people don't explicitly say so.


This thread series is one of the highest-quality in the history of smash discussion. Good things come out of this thread. People like Trifroze, Thinkaman, and Shaya (remember those thank you notes) have posted some amazing observations in this thread series. Dabuz or Trela or other top players sometimes come to comment. We've also had many others do intricate matchup or tournament analyses; FeelMeUp once took inventory of Sheik kill percentages across an entire tournament series.

But sometimes, and by sometimes I mean rather often, this thread devolves into a mess of people circlejerking about their online experiences. What ends up happening then is that the people with real insight don't post, because online is so disparate from live gameplay.

Frankly, I don't care if Ness or Mario or Meta Knight or whoever seems strong to a poster because s/he went from 10k GSP to 4 million.

Your desire to post should be tempered by consideration for what others desire to read.

This thread used to be called "the most strictly moderated thread on smashboards." There was a reason for that. For many of us who value insightful theoretical observation, this thread is the last bastion of hope. When many different people are talking about online experiences, half of us collectively groan and back away, and that isn't a good thing.

New Game new blood. Back when I first joined CCI thread three years ago I tried my best to mirror the quality of posters such as you and those you’ve mentioned. I’ve occasionally gone back to look at my old posts....and tbh they were still trash regardless. I’d like to believe I’ve changed since then.

Gheb is gone, Djent is gone, Man Li Gi is gone, Ho is gone, Zelder is gone . . . at least for now. Thris thread is in a rebuilding stage of sorts.

Anyways, the point is: Give it some time. As the posters here grow as players the quality of their posts will also improve. Though I think it’s fine to challenge people to up their game post wise. More seasoned posters have contributed quality impressions and I think as long as opinions and theories are challenged, we'll be okay.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Trela does rarely, but it happens. I believe it was before your time

I also recall Nairo posting on here way back years ago. Though it was a response to a bunch of idiots saying how Smash 4(post-patched mind you) was such a brain-dead easy-win character he was being carried by. That sure shut them up it was all pretty funny

 

[MapleBeasts]

That's pretty much agreeing with me.

The speed of her attacks wasn't what made her have killing options, it was the low lag of her weak hits that set it up. Her uair could be frame 20, it wouldn't have affected her KO potential if he dthrow had 25 frames of advantage. Same with bouncing fish, it wasn't a fast move, its just that nair and aerial needles had almost no lag.

Sure it helped that her fast moves set up into the kill moves, but they could have all been frame 1 and i wouldn't have mattered if they had a lot of lag.

Ah OK I see where you're coming from. What I was trying to point out was that I think the only thing keeping Sheik from being good in this game is her atrocious knockback. Bouncing fish's kill power was neutered in this game. You aren't taking stocks at any reasonable percents unless you land a smash attack. My argument is that her range and lack of disjoint was not a problem for her in past smash games, it's the nerf to her kill options that hurts her in this game.

 

[ZephyrZ]

I'll admit that my opinions are in fact influenced quite heavily from online play. I unfortunately don't have a local tournament scene and only rarely get to play competitive matches against other players in person. That probably did have an effect on my pessimistic opinion on heavies earlier. That said I think the real reason I'm being so hard to convince that DK and Bowser are high tier is because I'm having flashbacks to the old "Bowser is top tier" craze from early Smash 4. I might simply be trapped in the past. I'll try to bring up that I'm an online player when its relevant though.

I also want to throw out that part of the reason I'm so eager to share my opinion in a place like this is because I want people to call me out when I'm using poor logic or am ignorant to something. Partaking in discussion is, from my experience, one of the best ways to learn and improve so long as you are willing to listen to opposing sides. To be honest I was actually trying to start a debate with my heavyweight post the other day and was really surprised to see so many people passively agreeing with me immediately after - I expected more people to actively take the opposing side.

Is anybody else annoyed at the fact that almost every super heavy weight has a command grab? I mean it’s not like I can’t play around it, I can, but having to watch out for it the whole game is super annoying. I know you really shouldn’t be shielding too much against them anyway and I try to stay in the air against characters like Ganon and Ridley for this reason but it’s still annoying. I know it’s nothing game breaking or meta defining and heavies generally don’t have as many tools as other characters but I still find command grabs super annoying. Is this just a me thing or do other people share this opinion?

I'm pretty sure it's deliberate. Superheavies tend to be traditional grapplers by design, so they're often equipped with strong attacks meant to corner opponents and scare them into shield so they can use their powerful grab games. Even DK and Charizard who lack command grabs of their own have incredible grab games regardless.

Technically Ridley isn't a superheavy by the way, but he does play a lot like one and shares a lot of strengths with them.

 

[Thinkaman]

*stuff*

So I think you are correct on the pillars of your thesis here:

1. In this primordial phase, a lot--more than usual--of our discussion here ends up being taken by the noise of echoing opinions, which tend to skew towards a lower tier of play.
2. Online play correlates with this, and is the source of a lot of low-quality data.
3. Online play is, due to its increased base lag, a very different game.

On all these points and largely what you are pushing for in posting such, we agree. I'm about to go off "disagreeing" on a tangent, but it's not really debating these key things you were actually talking about, so I wanted this preface to make that clear.

One of the biggest problems with competitive discussion (and tier lists in specific) is that we don't have a good language for levels of play--and all of this is meaningless without that context. Sure, we make vague allusions to "top level" or "high level" or "low level", but hell if anyone has any sort of consensus as to what percentiles those actually refer to.

(Even "percentiles" are wonky--percent of what? All smash players? All game owners? All "competitive players"--whatever the hell that means?)

While "foolish freshmen" only talk about the level of play they share with their cousins, the enlightened "smug sophomores" get hard on talking as if only the absolute top level matters, as if matches between 2017 ZeRo and Leo are the only true manifestation of smash and everyone else is a pathetic poser for even thinking they had the right to boot up a console. The truth is it's sort of useless, or at least dubiously accurate, to talk about generalized character performance (beyond pure results and trends) at any level more narrow than, I dunno, top 100. Past that point, you're really just talking about players, at least as much as characters anyway.

I think we--including me--are naturally predisposed to talk about "our level" (normally one just above what we normally actually play at) and are way too quick to dismiss even slightly lower levels of play. Part of this is because this is such a high-skill game, that even slightly lower skills can seen very clearly different. It's a steep mountain, so to speak. I tend to talk about what I'd guess to be the top 1000 level or so--I always reasoned based on results that I was probably in the top 1000 Smash 4 players or top 500 Brawl players. (Which fit, because Brawl's central-core competitive scene was about half the size.)

I think many posts in this thread are speaking to the same level. We're having the same conversation. But then some people are talking in a top 10k context, or even a 100k context, and imo it would be arrogant and exclusionary to tell them to shut up, and insist that we are only going to talk about things that don't relate to then. Unfortunately, one does not become good purely by shutting up and listening to the wise sages who are better at video games.

Which brings us to online.

So, full disclaimer, I am what you could label "anti-online". I will get uppity and refuse to play fighting games on a laggy TV, so why would I tolerate playing in something far worse? In the past 11 years, I have played Brawl online once, Smash 4 online twice, and Ultimate a total of 4 times now--mostly due to lack a humans around this last month for me, leaving me like a desperate junkie. My point is, I have a very low opinion of online play in general.

A TV with one frame of lag will introduce a very small amount of distortion to the results of games, including variance. A 67th percentile player who plays a lag-friendly character might show consistent wins on a 68th percentile player. But the distortion is somewhat small--he won't beat a 80th percentile player--and even the most lag sensitive player/character should be able to demolish modestly weaker opponents.

The distortion caused by online's level of lag is bigger. Not tiny, not gargantuan. It just is what it is. The better player is still going to win most of the time, but if you were to take it too seriously, sure: past a certain level the distortion is enough that the correlation with offline play starts to diverge into that distortion. I would blindly put this cut-off point at around 3%. (Which happens to be roughly the Elite Smash qualification, for whatever that's worth)

In other words, if you do the math, I'm admitting saying that online can still manage to accurately portray top 100k level play, which is a reasonable thing to discuss and is a level of play that many non-terrible posts here are talking about. It's definitely the weaker end of what we'd call on-topic for this forum--this isn't the place to talk about how broken Kirby Stone is--but it's within the bounds of having a conversation.


Bottom line, it's okay to talk about online experiences here. And this is me, Mr. Hates-Online, telling you it's okay. But do pause and acknowledge, both when deciding if you want to make or post and while writing it, what level of play your experience is speaking from. Understand clearly that if online lag is involved, there is a pretty low ceiling in effect. But some of my observations come from playing against "top 100k" level players, so online is no different. While there have been a few lackluster online-inspired posts here, a few people like Shaya have found valuable talking points from their online forays. So in that light, keep it coming.

I can't believe I'm writing a post defending online play though. Good heavens. Stay in school and play offline, kids.

 

[MG_3989]

I like this post about online. I don’t know exactly how good I am. I mean I am in elite smash with 2 characters but I don’t know if that means anything and I’ve beaten a couple “pro level” players offline and I can definitely keep up with them. I don’t think I’m really good though and I’m probably on the lower end of skill level for this thread (I really don’t know what the average skill level for this thread is though) and while I do form opinions based on online I take it with a grain of salt. A lot of the opinions I post on here about the game aren’t taken directly from my experience either. I do a ton of research and watch a lot of tournaments and I take that much more seriously than my online results. All of that mixed together forms most of my opinions on the game so far

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I like this post about online. I don’t know exactly how good I am. I mean I am in elite smash with 2 characters but I don’t know if that means anything and I’ve beaten a couple “pro level” players offline and I can definitely keep up with them. I don’t think I’m really good though and I’m probably on the lower end of skill level for this thread (I really don’t know what the average skill level for this thread is though) and while I do form opinions based on online I take it with a grain of salt. A lot of the opinions I post on here about the game aren’t taken directly from my experience either. I do a ton of research and watch a lot of tournaments and I take that much more seriously than my online results. All of that mixed together forms most of my opinions on the game so far

The best way to test your skill is to go to tournaments and see how you do in a competitive environment. I believe online play is valuable and can help you grow and improve as a player. I think it's well beyond time that online players stop receiving crap for online play. With that said I can't really rock with elite smash. I wasn't a fan of for glory in the last game and elite smash isn't much better. Too many people try to cheese wins instead of trying to get better at the game and still got a FFA match despite being in elite killed it for me.

 

[MG_3989]

The best way to test your skill is to go to tournaments and see how you do in a competitive environment. I believe online play is valuable and can help you grow and improve as a player. I think it's well beyond time that online players stop receiving crap for online play. With that said I can't really rock with elite smash. I wasn't a fan of for glory in the last game and elite smash isn't much better. Too many people try to cheese wins instead of trying to get better at the game and still got a FFA match despite being in elite killed it for me.

I mean I know I’m “good” at the game. Ive beaten tournament level players occasionally and I can always keep up with them. I’ve definitely improved playing online especially when I get up against a good player I rematch them as much as possible. I also have been playing with friends online (unfortunately everyone has moved to different places so we can’t play local anymore) and that’s probably more valuable because they’re all good, around the same skill level as I am, some a little better some a little worse

I agree with you about elite smash, there are way too many people trying to cheese easy wins. I think once you get to elite or even before that the ruleset should be mandatory final destation or battlefield (I wish we could use more stages but Nintendo is Nintendo), 3 stocks, and 6 or 7 minutes long. That would give us a much more competitive and legitimate online experience. I hate going into a match that’s 3 stocks 3 minutes with smash balls on some janky stage

I do think in the future I will attend tournaments because I really do wanna see how good I actually am and I love to compete. The thing is I’m not worried about how good I am right now, I’m just worried about improving. I don’t care about losing if I learn something out of it

And yeah the online stigma needs to stop especially because at this point multiple pro players were first “WiFi warriors”

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I mean I know I’m “good” at the game. Ive beaten tournament level players occasionally and I can always keep up with them. I’ve definitely improved playing online especially when I get up against a good player I rematch them as much as possible. I also have been playing with friends online (unfortunately everyone has moved to different places so we can’t play local anymore) and that’s probably more valuable because they’re all good, around the same skill level as I am, some a little better some a little worse

I agree with you about elite smash, there are way too many people trying to cheese easy wins. I think once you get to elite or even before that the ruleset should be mandatory final destation or battlefield (I wish we could use more stages but Nintendo is Nintendo), 3 stocks, and 6 or 7 minutes long. That would give us a much more competitive and legitimate online experience. I hate going into a match that’s 3 stocks 3 minutes with smash balls on some janky stage

I do think in the future I will attend tournaments because I really do wanna see how good I actually am and I love to compete. The thing is I’m not worried about how good I am right now, I’m just worried about improving. I don’t care about losing if I learn something out of it

And yeah the online stigma needs to stop especially because at this point multiple pro players were first “WiFi warriors”

You could be good who knows. However, there's a big difference from playing at home vs playing in tournament. You should look to attend if you see how good you are. Also you can learn from people that attend tournaments too. There's multiple ways to improve as long as you keep learning you'll get better.

 

[MG_3989]

You could be good who knows. However, there's a big difference from playing at home vs playing in tournament. You should look to attend if you see how good you are. Also you can learn from people that attend tournaments too. There's multiple ways to improve as long as you keep learning you'll get better.

Yeah I definitely think I’ll do that. There are a ton of tournaments in central NJ too so it won’t be hard finding them. It could only help me improve so why not? And maybe eventually I’ll win one or two, the competitive streak in me likes that idea

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Yeah I definitely think I’ll do that. There are a ton of tournaments in central NJ too so it won’t be hard finding them. It could only help me improve so why not? And maybe eventually I’ll win one or two, the competitive streak in me likes that idea

You're from Jersey too? Your fortunate tiu live in the best region with the best players. Maybe we'll cross paths at a tournament.

 

[MG_3989]

You're from Jersey too? Your fortunate tiu live in the best region with the best players. Maybe we'll cross paths at a tournament.

I look forward to it if we ever do. I’m from around the New Brunswick area just to give you a general idea

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I look forward to it if we ever do. I’m from around the New Brunswick area just to give you a general idea

You should check out 8 on the break it's in Dunellen which should be fairly close to you.


Getting back on topic on the thread. One thing I'm realizing is that there's no character shaping the meta like in previous games. There's nothing that I've seen that you just straight up have to respect or a character dominating. You have to play around some strong options but that's about it.

 

[bc1910]

This is a little disingenuous. Speed absolutely matters, as does every other factor you've brought up. The problem with Sheik in this game has more to do with how terrible she is at killing. She was S tier in Sm4sh for the sole fact that she could back up her combo game and frame data with viable kill options.

Some of Sheik’s remaining kill confirms are rather effective (namely Needles to Bouncing Fish) and she’s good at edgeguarding. I find it hard to compare her to Brawl Sheik as that character had no BF, terrible smashes and almost no kill setups (although her edgeguarding was comparable or perhaps better due to edge hogging).

This isn’t to say Sheik’s killing isn’t an issue, she’s certainly one of the worst characters at killing, but she does have other issues which contribute to her current low standing. Her damage output is appalling, it’s actually been nerfed more heavily from Sm4sh than I realised (1-2% per move and the 0.85% short hop aerial multiplier really add up when you have to hit someone as many times as Sheik does) and it leaves her struggling in a meta where so many characters are dealing Melee-levels of damage. Her weight nerf is really noticeable considering the power level increase, she just kind of explodes now from any strong hit.

The universal changes haven’t been kind to her either. Her previously stellar landing lag frame data isn’t as impressive in relative terms and neither is her safety on shield. Sheik’s throws are also really suspect with balloon knockback; it starts to take hold at really low percents since her throws have high BKB and low KBG. With no kill throw to speak of she can struggle to kill a shielding opponent even more than Fox (Dthrow sets them up nicely at least). Finally, the overall increase in movement speed and strength of other projectiles have led to Needles being pretty average for zoning; the Sm4sh range nerf didn’t really have that much effect but having been carried over to a much faster game it really hurts now.

I still wouldn’t sleep on a character with such nutty frame data, but I actually don’t think her frame data is good enough to offset her pitiful damage output.

 

[Nemesis561]

Some of Sheik’s remaining kill confirms are rather effective (namely Needles to Bouncing Fish) and she’s good at edgeguarding. I find it hard to compare her to Brawl Sheik as that character had no BF, terrible smashes and almost no kill setups (although her edgeguarding was comparable or perhaps better due to edge hogging).

This isn’t to say Sheik’s killing isn’t an issue, she’s certainly one of the worst characters at killing, but she does have other issues which contribute to her current low standing. Her damage output is appalling, it’s actually been nerfed more heavily from Sm4sh than I realised (1-2% per move and the 0.85% short hop aerial multiplier really add up when you have to hit someone as many times as Sheik does) and it leaves her struggling in a meta where so many characters are dealing Melee-levels of damage. Her weight nerf is really noticeable considering the power level increase, she just kind of explodes now from any strong hit.

The universal changes haven’t been kind to her either. Her previously stellar landing lag frame data isn’t as impressive in relative terms and neither is her safety on shield. Sheik’s throws are also really suspect with balloon knockback; it starts to take hold at really low percents since her throws have high BKB and low KBG. With no kill throw to speak of she can struggle to kill a shielding opponent even more than Fox (Dthrow sets them up nicely at least). Finally, the overall increase in movement speed and strength of other projectiles have led to Needles being pretty average for zoning; the Sm4sh range nerf didn’t really have that much effect but having been carried over to a much faster game it really hurts now.

I still wouldn’t sleep on a character with such nutty frame data, but I actually don’t think her frame data is good enough to offset her pitiful damage output.

Just wanna say I really appreciate these in depth posts, I learn a lot from these. I hope we can see more of these sorts of posts and less one sentence off topic posts that seems to be flooding this thread right now.

Anyways, what are the thoughts overall on Pokemon trainer? Seems like a character that has a ton of potential to be possibly one of the better characters in time. In theory this character shouldn't have very many losing matchups, and seems to have an answer to most situations. Squirtle has really good low percent combos, Ivy overall seems to be a great character with good zoning and good kill combos. And Zard with the survivability and kill power. Also a frame 1 option in Pokemon change which can be used as a combo breaker is kind of nutty

I dont know if many top players would be willing to put in the time to learning 3 characters and all the matchups involved, so far I've only seen Leffen Pandarian and NCJacobT as some notable players using Trainer.

 

[SwagGuy99]

Some of Sheik’s remaining kill confirms are rather effective (namely Needles to Bouncing Fish) and she’s good at edgeguarding. I find it hard to compare her to Brawl Sheik as that character had no BF, terrible smashes and almost no kill setups (although her edgeguarding was comparable or perhaps better due to edge hogging).

This isn’t to say Sheik’s killing isn’t an issue, she’s certainly one of the worst characters at killing, but she does have other issues which contribute to her current low standing. Her damage output is appalling, it’s actually been nerfed more heavily from Sm4sh than I realised (1-2% per move and the 0.85% short hop aerial multiplier really add up when you have to hit someone as many times as Sheik does) and it leaves her struggling in a meta where so many characters are dealing Melee-levels of damage. Her weight nerf is really noticeable considering the power level increase, she just kind of explodes now from any strong hit.

The universal changes haven’t been kind to her either. Her previously stellar landing lag frame data isn’t as impressive in relative terms and neither is her safety on shield. Sheik’s throws are also really suspect with balloon knockback; it starts to take hold at really low percents since her throws have high BKB and low KBG. With no kill throw to speak of she can struggle to kill a shielding opponent even more than Fox (Dthrow sets them up nicely at least). Finally, the overall increase in movement speed and strength of other projectiles have led to Needles being pretty average for zoning; the Sm4sh range nerf didn’t really have that much effect but having been carried over to a much faster game it really hurts now.

I still wouldn’t sleep on a character with such nutty frame data, but I actually don’t think her frame data is good enough to offset her pitiful damage output.

I'd say Sheik is an OK character right now. Edgeguarding is good, combos are good, but she doesn't kill until ludicrously high percents and it seems like she may struggle in Ultimate unless they buff her damage output or kill potential in patches. That being said, I think Luigi and Squirtle are actually very similar to Smash 4 Sheik (still with their differences). Luigi and Squirtle have a lot of the same things Smash 4 Sheik does (high damage output, good throws, fast frame data, etc.) and Luigi especially has a much easier time killing than Sheik and weighs more than Sheik while Squirtle is faster than Luigi while still retaining the high damage output. They seem like they will be better than Sheik this time around.

 

[Augi]

*cough* I'll pose a question rather than any analysis... (Not that I have much analysis to give... I just don't have the time I used to, to dedicate to the game.)

But I'm curious what people's thoughts are on vs. and how they currently fit into the game.

While no one's especially a-buzz about either of these two, they're not completely absent from tournaments (looking at the Results thread on this forum).

But to pick the brains of posters here with more insight on the game, what holds Mario's well rounded kit back?

And in a similar vein, how does the Doc feel in Ultimate? I've actually seen the Doc placed slightly higher on some recent lists than his Plumber counterpart. Which is really interesting. Some preliminary reading I did by Doc mains suggested that, while Mario's combo game is obviously stronger, the greater strength to Doc's attacks combined with the overall changes from Ultimates engine, helps him better compensate for his lack of speed this time around.

Though his Recovery game is weak, I feel like it's enough to get by and not too huge of a detriment.

Definitely curious what people think.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Some of Sheik’s remaining kill confirms are rather effective (namely Needles to Bouncing Fish) and she’s good at edgeguarding. I find it hard to compare her to Brawl Sheik as that character had no BF, terrible smashes and almost no kill setups (although her edgeguarding was comparable or perhaps better due to edge hogging).

This isn’t to say Sheik’s killing isn’t an issue, she’s certainly one of the worst characters at killing, but she does have other issues which contribute to her current low standing. Her damage output is appalling, it’s actually been nerfed more heavily from Sm4sh than I realised (1-2% per move and the 0.85% short hop aerial multiplier really add up when you have to hit someone as many times as Sheik does) and it leaves her struggling in a meta where so many characters are dealing Melee-levels of damage. Her weight nerf is really noticeable considering the power level increase, she just kind of explodes now from any strong hit.

The universal changes haven’t been kind to her either. Her previously stellar landing lag frame data isn’t as impressive in relative terms and neither is her safety on shield. Sheik’s throws are also really suspect with balloon knockback; it starts to take hold at really low percents since her throws have high BKB and low KBG. With no kill throw to speak of she can struggle to kill a shielding opponent even more than Fox (Dthrow sets them up nicely at least). Finally, the overall increase in movement speed and strength of other projectiles have led to Needles being pretty average for zoning; the Sm4sh range nerf didn’t really have that much effect but having been carried over to a much faster game it really hurts now.

I still wouldn’t sleep on a character with such nutty frame data, but I actually don’t think her frame data is good enough to offset her pitiful damage output.

Been trying Sheik out, and honestly, she ain't half bad! By no means! Killing might be somewhat of an issue, but am used to that cause I use Diddy anyway. D Smash on sweetspot, U Smash on sweetspot, Bouncing Fish, U Air, and edgeguarding is already quite a lot of options. And there's the Burst Grenade that has more power, on sweetspot of course then.

I don't think she's much worse than Diddy honestly. Diddy, Sheik, Mario, Bayonetta and Mewtwo are being massively slept on just because they don't function EXACTLY like they did in Smash 4. Which is just bad sports honestly, because if anything, all these 5 characters kinda abused the Smash 4 engine all in their own way. Any dedicated Smash 4 main of these characters should adapt to the Ultimate version of the character easily, and should use the matchup experience and all other experience to create a even better and more balanced playstyle.

It's not cool you don't wanna use the character anymore because there's no exploits using them anymore.

Show some damned character loyalty!

 

[Heracr055]

Sheik is bad. Her speed and frame data isn't as impressive thanks to everyone getting faster+universal reduction of jumpsquat frames. As such characters can beat out or trade with her (and if Sheik is trading blows she's losing). Not to mention she still has trouble killing in this game (Bouncing Fish, aerial gimps, uair, FSmash and the occasional Vanish as her best options). And when you consider that many characters can build up % quickly due to the 1v1 damage boosts, that just puts Sheik at death % that much quicker.

 

[KamikazePotato]

On the subject of the validity of online experience - I think it varies based on the amount of lag. 'Moderate' lag, sure, it still helps play online. A previously online only player made it to the finals in a recent major tournament. But the more lag there is, the less useful the experiences get, and its impossible to create a lag baseline so people's comparisons can be accurate. One person's 'laggy' is another person's 'okay'.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

*cough* I'll pose a question rather than any analysis... (Not that I have much analysis to give... I just don't have the time I used to, to dedicate to the game.)

But I'm curious what people's thoughts are on vs. and how they currently fit into the game.

While no one's especially a-buzz about either of these two, they're not completely absent from tournaments (looking at the Results thread on this forum).

But to pick the brains of posters here with more insight on the game, what holds Mario's well rounded kit back?

And in a similar vein, how does the Doc feel in Ultimate? I've actually seen the Doc placed slightly higher on some recent lists than his Plumber counterpart. Which is really interesting. Some preliminary reading I did by Doc mains suggested that, while Mario's combo game is obviously stronger, the greater strength to Doc's attacks combined with the overall changes from Ultimates engine, helps him better compensate for his lack of speed this time around.

Though his Recovery game is weak, I feel like it's enough to get by and not too huge of a detriment.

Definitely curious what people think.

One of the biggest blows to Mario in Ultimate was the nerfs to his d-throw combos, which his main way to start his big combos that could rack up big damage at lower percents. That was honestly what put him way above doc in Smash 4, Doc did more damage per HIT, but it did not matter when Mario could do much more damage with a grab or winning a neutral exchange. He can still do them, Now he has to start it off his actual buttons. Now Mario finds himself on more equal grounds with his PhD counterpart due to the change. I think the unviersal mechanic changes benefit doc a bit more.. But I am not entirely sure

I think their main problem is both of them still have a severe allergic reaction to swords and most big disjointed buttons is general..and with many of swordies now really strong (inculding , who were really bad MU's back in Smash 4) and a big part of the current Meta does not really bode well for them

 

[DavemanCozy]

Doesn't Mario have combos out of Uthrow now?

 

[ARISTOS]

is OK but like BC said her damage output is appalling and the universal nerfs to grab really impacted her since she had one of the best grabs bar none in Smash 4.

Really it seems in Ultimate that the developers learned their lessons in that characters can not have strong neutral and disadvantage without a properly undertuned advantage- which is why &'s damage output and general threat in advantage has also been heavily weakened in the transition. All three characters got to keep their relative safety and ease of avoiding bad situations, but you'll have to keep winning neutral a lot to make victories possible. That's a really stressful gameplan (though I think ZSS is still strong, just very hard to play-this has remained true since her inception).

*cough* I'll pose a question rather than any analysis... (Not that I have much analysis to give... I just don't have the time I used to, to dedicate to the game.)

But I'm curious what people's thoughts are on vs. and how they currently fit into the game.

While no one's especially a-buzz about either of these two, they're not completely absent from tournaments (looking at the Results thread on this forum).

But to pick the brains of posters here with more insight on the game, what holds Mario's well rounded kit back?

And in a similar vein, how does the Doc feel in Ultimate? I've actually seen the Doc placed slightly higher on some recent lists than his Plumber counterpart. Which is really interesting. Some preliminary reading I did by Doc mains suggested that, while Mario's combo game is obviously stronger, the greater strength to Doc's attacks combined with the overall changes from Ultimates engine, helps him better compensate for his lack of speed this time around.

Though his Recovery game is weak, I feel like it's enough to get by and not too huge of a detriment.

Definitely curious what people think.

I can see the thoughts of why Doc is viewed as better but unfortunately I don't think Doc's increased explosiveness can make up for Mario's increased maneuverability and damage output per exchange. Mario's throw combos are more consistent to pull off, and while fireballs are worse than pills he is way more likely to get in close and be able to play the game, vs Doc who gets walled out and easily juggled while also having a legit bottom tier recovery (maybe even worse than ). I can see Doc being better in a few MUs (Spacies, maybe Rats), but I think Mario does better against the cast as a whole.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Diddy can still deal massive damage quickly, and Banana > F Throw is the most reliable kill confirm in the game I feel. F Smash is also tons stronger now. So I feel Diddy is still very good. Dash attack and N Air are buffed, F Air still is good although not AS good. D Tilt is great, possibly even quite overlooked now just about HOW great. Peanuts are good for off stage... Monkey Flip has less range but is overall more powerful than the patched version of Smash 4's. Rocket Barrel kills are a thing, U Air kills are still a thing, D Tilt U Smash still works, pummel is crazy fast and does crazy damage, B Air chains are still possible.

Honestly, the only thing Diddy is lacking still is a loyal dedicated top player. I believe ZeRo will eventually use him more. He said before in Smash 4 when Diddy was massively nerfed that he was terrible, but guess what? He never left Top Tier even when the nerfs hit him. This is why I have a hard time believing Diddy is anything lower than a High Tier this time around.

 

[J0eyboi]

I don't remember top players (other than San) commenting on the threads. I must be a latecomer. : p

First of all, your first post was in v4 of the tier list thread. No **** you're a latecomer (what's a glass house?). Trela and Dabuz mostly posted in the earlier Smash 4 CCI threads, as I found when I binge read through some of them a while back.

Second of all, don't do AEMehr and RK dirty like that, c'mon.

The best way to test your skill is to go to tournaments and see how you do in a competitive environment. I believe online play is valuable and can help you grow and improve as a player. I think it's well beyond time that online players stop receiving crap for online play. With that said I can't really rock with elite smash. I wasn't a fan of for glory in the last game and elite smash isn't much better. Too many people try to cheese wins instead of trying to get better at the game and still got a FFA match despite being in elite killed it for me.

As someone who plays online more than he should (maybe all this discussion will actually get me to go to Orbitar next week), just play arenas. Quickplay has a bunch of problems that make it especially not worth using over the arena system.

Doesn't Mario have combos out of Uthrow now?

He did in 4 too. You just almost never saw them.

But I'm curious what people's thoughts are on vs. and how they currently fit into the game.

Here's what I know about Mario:

• Utilt was nerfed, no longer hitting in front of him, which makes a lot of his low % combo routes from 4 not work.
• Usmash was also nerfed, killing much later than in 4, though fortunately still much earlier than in Brawl.
• Up-B had its kill power buffed, which actually makes Mario's ladder combos stronger than they were in Smash 4.
• Fireballs have a bit more hitstun, letting them set up into more moves.
• Bthrow was nerfed, as per the universal weakening of kill throws.

That's pretty much it. He gets less damage off throws at 0, but is pretty much the same character outside of that.

I've already posted my thoughts on Sheik earlier in this thread and don't particularly want to rewrite them, but I will add:

D Smash on sweetspot, U Smash on sweetspot, Bouncing Fish, U Air, and edgeguarding is already quite a lot of options. And there's the Burst Grenade that has more power, on sweetspot of course then.

4 options outside of edgeguarding. 4. None of which are even slightly safe, and most of which are worthless in neutral. That is not "a lot of options."

 

[KakuCP9]

I wouldn't sleep on a character that can cancel Needles into imagination. Plus she still has powerful ledge-trapping with Needles and such so even characters that are extremely difficult to edge-guard will probably be forced to eat Needles->bouncing fish or a weak nair into a combo. I'll cede that she hits like paper bag, but Sheik still has ways to safely and efficiently rack up damage in conjunction with kill setups that are confirmed from reliable neutral tools.

 

[The_Bookworm]

First of all, your first post was in v4 of the tier list thread. No **** you're a latecomer (what's a glass house?). Trela and Dabuz mostly posted in the earlier Smash 4 CCI threads, as I found when I binge read through some of them a while back.

Second of all, don't do AEMehr and RK dirty like that, c'mon.



As someone who plays online more than he should (maybe all this discussion will actually get me to go to Orbitar next week), just play arenas. Quickplay has a bunch of problems that make it especially not worth using over the arena system.



He did in 4 too. You just almost never saw them.



Here's what I know about Mario:

• Utilt was nerfed, no longer hitting in front of him, which makes a lot of his low % combo routes from 4 not work.
• Usmash was also nerfed, killing much later than in 4, though fortunately still much earlier than in Brawl.
• Up-B had its kill power buffed, which actually makes Mario's ladder combos stronger than they were in Smash 4.
• Fireballs have a bit more hitstun, letting them set up into more moves.
• Bthrow was nerfed, as per the universal weakening of kill throws.

That's pretty much it. He gets less damage off throws at 0, but is pretty much the same character outside of that.

I've already posted my thoughts on Sheik earlier in this thread and don't particularly want to rewrite them, but I will add:



4 options outside of edgeguarding. 4. None of which are even slightly safe, and most of which are worthless in neutral. That is not "a lot of options."

You don't have to rub it on me. : p

Also kinda forgot about AEMehr and RK, so sorry about that. I'm tired here.

So about Mario vs Dr Mario, I feel like it is too early to determine who is better. On one hand, Mario still has the better mobility, combo game (pretty much the only character who can still reliably latter combo you, other than maybe ZSS), and recovery. On the other hand, Dr. Mario now has more reliable combo routes in this game than in SSB4 (down air autocancel into imagination), has greater damage output in individual hits, a better projectile, and has overall better KO power (his cyclone is actually bonkers in this game).

 

[KakuCP9]

I don't remember top players (other than San) commenting on the threads. I must be a latecomer. : p

https://smashboards.com/threads/4br...ive-impressions.429826/page-414#post-21218484
Read this **** homie. It's legendary.

 

[Deleted member]

Is there any specifically bad Mu for R.o.b we know of

 

[MG_3989]

https://smashboards.com/threads/4br...ive-impressions.429826/page-414#post-21218484
Read this **** homie. It's legendary.

That was an awesome read! If Smash doesn’t work out for him I think he might a have a career as a writer in his pocket

 

[bc1910]

I do think Sheik is a hell of a lot of fun. Her lack of survivability, abysmal damage output and stellar frame data combine to create a character who can beat any opponent, but you’ve gotta be on point. The direct correlation of skill and reward is very healthy from a balance perspective. In Sheik’s case her reward is skewed too low, but I don’t think she’s too far off the mark.

In other words, Sheik punishes you hard for playing badly and rewards you for playing well. She is an excellent character to train with and learn the game itself; the importance of not getting hit, well placed counterattacks, maximising your follow-ups etc.

It's not cool you don't wanna use the character anymore because there's no exploits using them anymore.

Show some damned character loyalty!

Character loyalty is a flawed concept. The best competitors use the best tools available to them; not necessarily top tiers, but whichever character suits them best. If that happens to be the same character between games, good on you. If not, no problem.

In any case, you’re talking to someone who’s stuck through their favourite character getting gutted two months into 3DS release and literally becoming a meme.

I like to think of Ultimate Greninja as my reward though.

 

[trickroom]

*cough* I'll pose a question rather than any analysis... (Not that I have much analysis to give... I just don't have the time I used to, to dedicate to the game.)

But I'm curious what people's thoughts are on vs. and how they currently fit into the game.

While no one's especially a-buzz about either of these two, they're not completely absent from tournaments (looking at the Results thread on this forum).

But to pick the brains of posters here with more insight on the game, what holds Mario's well rounded kit back?

And in a similar vein, how does the Doc feel in Ultimate? I've actually seen the Doc placed slightly higher on some recent lists than his Plumber counterpart. Which is really interesting. Some preliminary reading I did by Doc mains suggested that, while Mario's combo game is obviously stronger, the greater strength to Doc's attacks combined with the overall changes from Ultimates engine, helps him better compensate for his lack of speed this time around.

Though his Recovery game is weak, I feel like it's enough to get by and not too huge of a detriment.

Definitely curious what people think.

Doc’s recovery game has gotten a lot better, but Mario is still handily better than him. Tying into the discussion earlier, mobility is such a benefit in Smash in so many different areas (neutral, recovery, combo game) that a heavy character has to have a seriously broken kit to reach the top levels of viability. In this case, I think transplanting Mario’s moveset onto a slow version of himself requires serious buffs on the slow version for the slow version to compete — and Doc still doesn’t. I think it’s especially hard in this case because Mario/Doc’s fairs are bad in neutral, and Doc’s mobility is too low to compensate. Doc pays for the combination of slow speed and bad forward facing aerial hitbox a lot.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Doc’s recovery game has gotten a lot better, but Mario is still handily better than him. Tying into the discussion earlier, mobility is such a benefit in Smash in so many different areas (neutral, recovery, combo game) that a heavy character has to have a seriously broken kit to reach the top levels of viability. In this case, I think transplanting Mario’s moveset onto a slow version of himself requires serious buffs on the slow version for the slow version to compete — and Doc still doesn’t. I think it’s especially hard in this case because Mario/Doc’s fairs are bad in neutral, and Doc’s mobility is too low to compensate. Doc pays for the combination of slow speed and bad forward facing aerial hitbox a lot.

Truthfully Doc has a perfectly great forward facing aerial hitbox with his Uair combined with his lower short hop. His big issues are still disjoints and super high mobility but his reward on hit and when he's in now is actually substantial so I don't believe Mario and Doc are quite as far as they were in Smash 4. I think Doc is a perfectly good character in this game! Though I do believe Mario is better again. But not by quite as wide a margin.

Thinkaman :I think you hit the nail on the head with regards to how I feel about online, but I'd like to add an addendum and say that good connections and battle lobbies are tools used by even the best players in the scene and its generally what I rely on since I don't have a ton of travel money (I AM going to MI Masters 2019 though which will be a nice way to practice and grind up), and as long as you curate your connections online can be a REASONABLE platform for discussion like you said. My general good advice if you're playing online: "curate" your opinion with other players who play at a local level or other good players. Depending on how you meet them and talk with them, introduce your ideas and concepts to them and see if they agree with your analysis, bounce it off of them and see what feedback you get. By then you'll have enough insight and fact-checking to be able to form a pretty tangible opinion about the game! It's what I do at least.