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Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

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  • Total voters
    568

Sucumbio

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It is actually a frame 11 option. Don't forget that this character has a frame 7 jumpsquat, so it is the 7 frames + 4 frame startup of up air.
Up smash OoS and up special OoS are both frame 12.
Up smash could be a niche option because of arm intangibility and 6% armor, but that is risky to use.
Up B straight up has no intangibility or armor, which is strange as this would be the type of move you would expect to have either.

And no, he cannot cancel his jumpsquat frames with his tilts, which would've helped out in that regard (although his OoS would still be questionable at best).

As a whole Kazuya has very lacking OoS options, potentially the worst in the game.
Can he cancel his jump squat with crouch dash?

OoS options for Kazuya seem bad but against characters with good OoS not even crazy fast like GW, I'm just just trying to understand why he can't use crouch dash combos in place of standing your ground with shield out just waiting to upb.
 

Spinosaurus

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Can he cancel his jump squat with crouch dash?

OoS options for Kazuya seem bad but against characters with good OoS not even crazy fast like GW, I'm just just trying to understand why he can't use crouch dash combos in place of standing your ground with shield out just waiting to upb.
He can uftilt and ubtilt cancel his jumpsquat.

Refer to TTTTTsd's post. This is not a character with bad OoS.
 

NotLiquid

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Terry made me switch to Pro controller, Min Min made me map specials to bumpers, and now Kazuya's about to make me turn tap jump on.

I swear, the **** I do to play these fun as hell fighting game characters. I wouldn't be surprised if Kaz converts people to Smash Box.
 

The_Bookworm

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So how we feeling about this?


If you go the pinned comment, it's apparently been confirmed that this is inescapable
Well I don't see this lasting very long, especially given the devs general dislike of infinites (i.e. Diddy).

Between this, being able to cancel the ending Crouch Dash frames into another one, being able to use upback/upforward tilt OoS, and many other things, there seems to be a lot of janky/rule-breaking aspects of the character that kinda went under the radar of the dev team. Aka, the type of stuff you should not expect to last very long.

Still makes me wonder how this infinite in particular went under the radar.
 

TTTTTsd

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Being able to cancel Crouch Dash into itself or other movements is likely intentional, as is the upback/upforward tilt OoS stuff, and neither of those things are really BUSTED perse so much as they are extremely useful. The Crouch Dash is meant to be an extension of Kazuya's movement like that, it's how it's always been in Tekken and why it's how it is here, it's to preserve the feel of the Mishima archetype. Raw, unbridled mobility at the cost of complexity and a steeper learning curve. The UB/UF Tilt OoS thing is just a byproduct of why Kazuya's jump is slower, likely to make tap jump users able to do them with the A Button. It's a control concession I think, and I don't think its particularly egregious, just helpful.

The infinite probably isn't, you definitely could not do that in Tekken lol
 
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The_Bookworm

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Being able to cancel Crouch Dash into itself or other movements is likely intentional, as is the upback/upforward tilt OoS stuff, and neither of those things are really BUSTED perse so much as they are extremely useful. The Crouch Dash is meant to be an extension of Kazuya's movement like that, it's how it's always been in Tekken and why it's how it is here, it's to preserve the feel of the Mishima archetype. Raw, unbridled mobility at the cost of complexity and a steeper learning curve. The UB/UF Tilt OoS thing is just a byproduct of why Kazuya's jump is slower, likely to make tap jump users able to do them with the A Button. It's a control concession I think, and I don't think its particularly egregious, just helpful.

The infinite probably isn't, you definitely could not do that in Tekken lol
The Crouch Dash cancel thing is very likely intentional, but I don't think it being able to cancel into back dash into Crouch Dash to stay fully invincible at all times was.

The upback/upforward OoS thing is also definitely not egregious, but I think it is an oversight regardless. While it makes sense that they would do something in order to make tap jump experience easier, I don't think giving an option only tap jump users have access to (using upforward/upback OoS) and alienating non-tap jump users was what they were going for.

Also, I guess that means that optimal Kazuya has to have tap jump on?
 

meleebrawler

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Well I don't see this lasting very long, especially given the devs general dislike of infinites (i.e. Diddy).

Between this, being able to cancel the ending Crouch Dash frames into another one, being able to use upback/upforward tilt OoS, and many other things, there seems to be a lot of janky/rule-breaking aspects of the character that kinda went under the radar of the dev team. Aka, the type of stuff you should not expect to last very long.

Still makes me wonder how this infinite in particular went under the radar.
I get the feeling you're extremely determined to prove Kazuya is not good, or at least make it so when you are quick to point out weaknesses and make out some of his strengths as basically cheating, infinite aside.

Anyway, there's more to out-of-shield than frame data. His up special, at least on the ground has a pretty unbelievable hitbox that has little trouble nailing anyone in his personal space. And his crazy damage off of basically everything, including the tried-and-true grab is a deterrent against recklessly hitting his shield all of it's own.
 
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Sucumbio

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The Crouch Dash cancel thing is very likely intentional, but I don't think it being able to cancel into back dash into Crouch Dash to stay fully invincible at all times was.

The upback/upforward OoS thing is also definitely not egregious, but I think it is an oversight regardless. While it makes sense that they would do something in order to make tap jump experience easier, I don't think giving an option only tap jump users have access to (using upforward/upback OoS) and alienating non-tap jump users was what they were going for.

Also, I guess that means that optimal Kazuya has to have tap jump on?
Actually I think you can get by without it. But I personally use it.... I haven't tried it with it turned off because I use both the jump button and tap jump situationally. And I guess I should have prefaced with"everything else being equal" but to be clear his crouch dash makes frame data illusory to some degree as yet unquantifiable. Hits land that never should and others that never do cost you stocks it's insane.
 

Arthur97

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I get the feeling you're extremely determined to prove Kazuya is not good, or at least make it so when you are quick to point out weaknesses and make out some of his strengths as basically cheating, infinite aside.

Anyway, there's more to out-of-shield than frame data. His up special, at least on the ground has a pretty unbelievable hitbox that has little trouble nailing anyone in his personal space. And his crazy damage off of basically everything, including the tried-and-true grab is a deterrent against recklessly hitting his shield all of it's own.
I mean, if you want a fair picture, you need the bad. Look at the down sides with the up. As annoying it can be when that bad is about one of your favorites or the good about a least favorite.
 
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Emblem Lord

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Well I don't see this lasting very long, especially given the devs general dislike of infinites (i.e. Diddy).

Between this, being able to cancel the ending Crouch Dash frames into another one, being able to use upback/upforward tilt OoS, and many other things, there seems to be a lot of janky/rule-breaking aspects of the character that kinda went under the radar of the dev team. Aka, the type of stuff you should not expect to last very long.

Still makes me wonder how this infinite in particular went under the radar.
In Tekken EWGF has insane amount hitstun. Clearly they were trying to emulate that.

You can DI this, but honestly Kazuya has many REAL death combos from electric loops. The typical Electric loop has been dubbed "Electric Stair" as it resembles a staircase. Electric to full jump nair for spike and fast fall. The opponent suffers hard landing then you can grab down throw/utilt 1/cr.jab into another electric rinse repeat until you want to do an ender of Dragon Uppercut/U-smash/F-smash.

I don't think this went under the radar.

I think Kazuya works as intended.

Fight him perfectly or die.
 

Arthur97

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So, you think it's more likely they intentionally added an infinite? Something they seemingly try pretty hard to keep out? All for the sake of being "accurate?" Well, then, guess we may really have hit the too accurate threshold.
 

Emblem Lord

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So, you think it's more likely they intentionally added an infinite? Something they seemingly try pretty hard to keep out? All for the sake of being "accurate?" Well, then, guess we may really have hit the too accurate threshold.
I think it's a side effect of how he was programmed.

I can see them removing the infinite by adjusting crouch jab.

I do not see them nerfing Electrics.

I could be wrong though.
 

Arthur97

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I think it's a side effect of how he was programmed.

I can see them removing the infinite by adjusting crouch jab.

I do not see them nerfing Electrics.

I could be wrong though.
Well, if it didn't go under the radar, then it means they intentionally left it in at least, which just seems antithetical to their balancing philosophy. Then again, he in general seems antithetical to Smash's design philosophy.
 

Cutie Gwen

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Considering Electrics literally have a 2 frame window for activation, it's clear the mindset is that it should be very good because of that, otherwise they're remove 2 framing too, right? Kazuya isn't even the first fighter to break traditional Smash rules so I fail to see how being casual friendly matters in this thread
 

Thinkaman

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I can't see them keeping the footstool or crouch-jab-reset infinites if either of those is indeed true. But nothing else, particularly involving (E)WGF, seems suspect.

The frame timings/advantages on d-throw, WGF, and EWGF are probably the tightest an Ultimate character has ever been designed. Everything just barely works.
 

Ziodyne 21

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Then again. They attempted to patch out :ultluigi:0-death combos only for them to still be possible albeit being more with much stricter timing and being now pretty situational. Its been several balance patches since then and they have decided to leave it completely be.

I guess they decided it's so hard to do consistently now that if a Luigi player pulls one off, they earned it I guess ?
 
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StrangeKitten

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If they are going to leave infinites in, they should be quite situational, and hard to pull off. It's what keeps Luigi and Diddy's infinites in check. Kazuya's infinite didn't look that situational, especially considering EWGF is being touted as one of his best moves. Doesn't look that difficult to do, either. Therefore, I think it should be patched out.
 

Hydreigonfan01

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Seeding for Maesuma TOP 5
  1. Tea :ultpacman:
  2. Kome :ultshulk:
  3. Rizeasu :ultbrawler::ultmarth::substitute:
  4. Kameme :ultsheik::ultmegaman::ultwario:
  5. Gackt :ultness:
  6. Atelier :ultpokemontrainer::ultwolf:
  7. ZAKI :ultkingdedede:
  8. Shuton :ultolimar::ultpyra::ultmythra:
  9. tk3 :ultchrom::ultroy:
  10. Raito :ultduckhunt::ultbanjokazooie:
  11. KEN :ultsonic:
  12. Sigma :ulttoonlink:
  13. Luminous :ultcloud: :ultjoker:
  14. Abadango :ultpikachu:
  15. HIKARU :ultroy::ultpokemontrainer::ultdk:
  16. Repo :ultmegaman:
  17. Munekin :ultryu::ultken:
  18. Masashi :ultcloud::ultsephiroth:
  19. Lunamado :ultluigi::ultbowser::ultpyra::ultmythra:
  20. DoubleA :ultshulk:
  21. Shirayuki :ultinkling:
  22. Tsuna :ultgreninja:
  23. Lickey :ultmetaknight:
  24. Renya :ultpikachu:
  25. DIO :ultsnake:
  26. Levi :ultinkling:
  27. Shachi :ultsheik:
  28. Omuatu :ultminmin
  29. Limeman :ultzss:
  30. Komugiko :ultmegaman:
  31. Uto :ultmetaknight:
  32. Horkeu :ultrosalina:
Maesuma TOP 5 ends on Sunday, with the next day having MSM 233. Not doing seeding for that as it's a local, but it's pretty stacked with over 233 entrants and some of them are PGR or have PGR potential, including Sparg0, VoiD, Charliedaking, Razo, T3 DOM, Larry Lurr, Zenyou and Nicko.

Of course, Sparg0 and VoiD play :ultpyra:/:ultmythra:, so expect some good results from that character in that tournament.
 
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Cap'n Jack

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Glad to see Ratio pick back up :ultbanjokazooie: . Hoping his buffs will entice more to revisit the duo. I think the improved Forward Smash will give him more menace on the ground. It was already a good forward Smash and now it will be able to KO a little earlier.
 

Emblem Lord

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ANOTHER ONE!!!!

For the record once it starts actually spiking the nair can be teched. But before that it gives hard landing recovery and leads to combos. There are also other varations you can do using cr.jab as Ikechi displayed in his video.

So he has several death combo variations.

And we know players love to optimize. In about 6 months Kazuya is probably going to be the most boring character to watch until he actually touches someone lol.

It will literally be high level Kazuya's looking for an Electric and then killing the opponent. A little ironic for someone with so many tools, but oh well. It is what it is.
 
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The_Bookworm

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DJ KHALID!!!!

ANOTHER ONE!!!!
I noticed that Wolf bounced off the floor towards the end of that sequence. Is it possible to tech that?

Either way, the amount of death sequences this character has is unprecedented.
Makes me wonder (and frightened) how the Kazuya players will apply them outside of the lab.
This character design-wise gives me a headache when it comes to thinking about the viability of the character. We have truly never encountered a character quite like him before.

One thing I noticed is how tight a lot of Kazuya's death combo sequences are.
If you look at the Training Mode combo counter for a lot of them (and that includes the Crouch Jab EWGF infinite), they oftentimes reset back to 1 despite the combo being true.
If EWGF got its stun duration reduced by even one frame, I wonder how much of these combos will continue to work.


Edit:
Btw, I really like Larry Lurr's analysis on the character. I feel like he nicely weighs in the character's strengths and weaknesses when it comes to him talking about the character, while also being somewhat speculative and conservative on his overall views on the character.
Certainty better than being on the bandwagon on either side.
 
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Sinister Slush

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Glad to see Ratio pick back up :ultbanjokazooie: . Hoping his buffs will entice more to revisit the duo. I think the improved Forward Smash will give him more menace on the ground. It was already a good forward Smash and now it will be able to KO a little earlier.
On the day of the update along with the next day he was YT streaming his labbing. Was an interesting watch as he tested out Utilt and Bair changes for the most part, Fsmash not so much.
 
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Rizen

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but it's pretty stacked with over 233 entrants and some of them are PGR or have PGR potential, including Sparg0, VoiD, Charliedaking, Razo, T3 DOM, Larry Lurr, Zenyou and Nicko.

Of course, Sparg0 and VoiD play :ultpyra:/:ultmythra:, so expect some good results from that character in that tournament.
Has VoiD actually used Pythra? Speaking of which, can anyone link the videos of the tournament Cosmos recently won with them?
 

meleebrawler

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For all the talk of Kazuya's combos and unique options being an aberration in Smash, his Devil traits serve him far better here than they ever did in Tekken, especially the laser.

Of all the fighting game characters his edgeguarding is by far the best, not just because of sniping but because Demon Scissors is super scary against low recoveries and Kazuya is very much able to recover from using that.
 

Iron Maw

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Honestly, I don't know how practical these large near death combos are going to be with timing that tight on anything that doesn't have a big hurtbox. Kazuya's Nair drag-down is fair situational because it rarely hits the way you want it. I can see top Kazuyas months from still dropping that & in serious match. This not even getting into how stages with platforms can screw up them up either. There is just too kuch room for error. He doesn't really needs this either, not when he can get 60-80% off of far easier conversions. He just killing in 2-3 interactions instead.

Agreed, LarryLur's take, in Smash he's kinda of like a successful version of Ganon in some ways.

Anyway, I hope to see more use of Spinning Demon to Left Hook. That basically his answer to Pika, Sonic and hard other to hit small characters. Its also a fantastic combo finisher that can kill.

EDIT: Also Devil Fist and Demon God Fist also need more exploration too. Like Demon God Fist>Up tilt>Roundhouse Triple Kicks etc
 
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blackghost

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im gonna wait before I drop any major thoughts on kazuya but i do think we need to see more usage of crouch armor and moves like tombstone crusher to challenge disjoints. kazuya has a sword its his legs.

the stag reversal command grab isnt being used very much as well.
 

Minix0

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Idk how good Kazuya is, but I really would like him better if he didn't have the ability to kill you at 60 from a command grab. Its kinda lame :/

He's a super technical character but I don't know how much technicality is really required when he can get stupidly early kills off of simple things, though I don't know too much about him yet.
 

Thinkaman

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I'm loving Mii Gunner (1311) against Kazuya so far.

Obviously, the re-reflect trap is a free stock if you get him to fall for it. If he does, great!

But that's just a one-time trick, whatever. It's the status quo beyond that that is still great. You have amazing linear projectiles against Kazuya and he can't reflect them. He also can't laser punish you. He has to try to fight his way in, through the usual Samus/Gunner parry-my-missiles-and-eat-a-charge-shot bullcrap.

Kazuya's offstage disadvantage is much worse than usual. Mii Gunner is one of the best characters in the game at covering high, and doesn't care about plunging dairs to boot. Lunar Launch grants off-stage downward coverage in a way that can gimp Kazuya, and provides enough recovery to survive Gates of Hell gimps. Missiles and Charge Shot burn air dodges, and reflected offstage Devil Blaster is a KO.

Mii Gunner has crappy ground mobility, frame data, and OoS options. But in this matchup, who cares? Never have those things mattered less. Mediocre grabs and throws? Not a problem today.

Meanwhile, Gunner f-smash shines, beating a very impressive % of the tools of the man-with-a-tool-for-everything. Yes, if you whiff it, you will suffer like you have never suffered before, so just appreciate the attack for what it is. Gunner f-smash traps (and uair/up-b gimps) can provide more sub-100% (no Rage Drive for you) kills than most harassment-based character are used too as an added bonus.

Long story short, Gunner gets to break the rules and ignore Kazuya's anti-camp tools, forcing him to come to you. Unlike Villager, Isaballe, DH, or even PAC-MAN, you have tangible and attractive win conditions in abundance, none of which involve getting in Kazuya's face. And against Kazuyas who have never played a Mii Gunner before, you are almost gauranteed a single stock in one match totally free.
 

KirbySquad101

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I apologize for interrupting the:ultkazuya:talk for a bit, but things are going preeetttyyy wild on over at Maesuma Top 5:【1on1部門】マエスマTOP... | Details (smash.gg) .


Most notably, two :ultsamus::ultdarksamus: players by the name of Haya and Yaura respectively, placed not only WELL above their seeding (59th seed and 35th seed respectively), but placed 4th and 5th respectively and took a lot of names along the way. During his run, Haya 2-0'd tk3 :ultchrom::ultroy: (who ended up getting 33rd place), 3-0'd Abadango :ultpikachu:, and 3-2'd Atelier :ultpokemontrainerf::ultwolf: before losing 0-3 to Rizeasu and Sigma :ulttoonlink:. Yaura's run was even more impressive, where starting all the way from Loser's, he 2-0'd DoubleA :ultshulk: (eliminating him at 65th place), 3-1'd Kie :ulticeclimbers:, 3-1'd Atelier :ultpokemontrainerf::ultwolf:, 3-0'd Abadango :ultpikachu:, and 3-0'd Gackt :ultness:.

Yaura's run is a pretty major feat in of itself as he was one of the only players from Shikoku (besides Ginko :ultpacman:) to perform this well at a large regional, given Shikoku's status as a fairly small and unknown region.
 
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Hydreigonfan01

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Results for Maesuma Top 5.

1. HIKARU :ultroy:
2. Rizeasu :ultmarth::ultbyleth::ultbrawler::ultrobin:
3. Sigma :ulttoonlink:
4. Yaura :ultdarksamus:
5. haya :ultsamus::ultdarksamus:
5. Gackt :ultness:
7. DIO :ultsnake:
7. Abadango :ultpikachu::ultpalutena:
9. Shachi :ultsheik:
9. ZAKI :ultkingdedede:
9. Piro :ultpikachu:
9. Atelier :ultpokemontrainer::ultwolf:
13. Tsubotsubo :ultolimar:
13. Munekin :ultryu:
13. Lickey :ultmetaknight:
13. Shirayuki :ultinkling:

KEN, Tea and Kome ended up missing a train due to bad weather causing them to DQ.

BTW, Charliedaking started playing some training mod Wolf and he thinks the character has the potential to be the best.
 
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