Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Sucumbio]

Speaking of Joker has anyone had any experience with Kazuya vs Joker? Joker is already so dominant in a match so oppression is a given but is Kazuya able to answer his speed and arsene?

 

[Wigglerman]

Speaking of Joker has anyone had any experience with Kazuya vs Joker? Joker is already so dominant in a match so oppression is a given but is Kazuya able to answer his speed and arsene?

I gave my early anecdotes on the kazuya/joker match up earlier and it feels like a very stressful MU for Kazuya right now. Granted me and my friend aren't professionals but we're comparable level, with me typically being considered a touch above him in skill level. His Joker was running laps around me and keeping me in the air and racking up damage a lot. With Arsen out he can kill Kazuya pretty early and he gets Arsen frequently.

However I don't know how the MU will look at the top level once Kazuya players figure him out. Now that I've had a week to practice things out I'm eager for me and my bud to run sets again to see how better I fare. I know it'll still be rough because one mess up puts me in disadvantage for an extensive amount of time and I have to claw my way back to a neutral reset or even get things rolling in my favor.

 

[meleebrawler]

I gave my early anecdotes on the kazuya/joker match up earlier and it feels like a very stressful MU for Kazuya right now. Granted me and my friend aren't professionals but we're comparable level, with me typically being considered a touch above him in skill level. His Joker was running laps around me and keeping me in the air and racking up damage a lot. With Arsen out he can kill Kazuya pretty early and he gets Arsen frequently.

However I don't know how the MU will look at the top level once Kazuya players figure him out. Now that I've had a week to practice things out I'm eager for me and my bud to run sets again to see how better I fare. I know it'll still be rough because one mess up puts me in disadvantage for an extensive amount of time and I have to claw my way back to a neutral reset or even get things rolling in my favor.

Poor disadvantage is something a character must deal with in every matchup worth their salt, it's still worth considering but other aspects are more interesting.

I just don't really see Joker having anything that Kazuya doesn't have at least a decent answer for. Assuming he doesn't make a habit of using things like fsmash and the laser in neutral, Kazuya is one of the more difficult characters to catch in a position where he can do nothing but get hit, and Joker can't just not engage with him at all to win. Also feels like he ironically out-disjoints Joker, and if he manages to land a combo while Arsene is up, well, he's not sticking around for long after that.

 

[Wigglerman]

Poor disadvantage is something a character must deal with in every matchup worth their salt, it's still worth considering but other aspects are more interesting.

I just don't really see Joker having anything that Kazuya doesn't have at least a decent answer for. Assuming he doesn't make a habit of using things like fsmash and the laser in neutral, Kazuya is one of the more difficult characters to catch in a position where he can do nothing but get hit, and Joker can't just not engage with him at all to win. Also feels like he ironically out-disjoints Joker, and if he manages to land a combo while Arsene is up, well, he's not sticking around for long after that.

The issues I had was specifically Joker's low profile. He can quite literally just exist under a lot of Kazuya's hitboxes (Just from his dash or slide in general). And Kazuya struggles a LOT to deal with air pressure. he doesn't have moves he can just throw out to beat drill kicks or other great pokes that chew up up for a large amount of % before he even hits the ground only to get grabbed or mixed up because his move start up isn't great.

But again this was my experiences on day 1 and 2, I've not had a runback since as I've been working more than playing and when I have been playing it's been execution drills for Kazuya. My experiences are also online matches with my friend, so my mileage will vary when we start running local matches again.

 

[Rizen]

If we're talking online results only, then they are doing extremely well (though you could say the same for someone like Luigi, and no one seems to think he's anywhere near high tier), but in terms of offline performance, Sparg0 used them for only one set a local, VoiD didn't use them at all, and while Cloudy had a really strong performance at the Mexican Invitational mostly using them, the outcomes of the sets that happened at the invitational already don't quite line-up with the MU chart Cloudy's dishing out. Not being to take a single game off of Maister at all in both of their sets doesn't imply a favored MU against GnW at all, and the "too close for comfort" sets he had with Meme and Necro implies match-ups like Mario and Yoshi being more even if anything.

This ain't to say they'll never be widely successful, but I also think we have to wait until the top players repping them will not only use them, but exhibit consistently strong performances before suggesting they reach ROB/Roy levels of dominance or that they only have 7 even/losing MUs (and maybe also wait for counterplay to develop, but that's a given for any character lol).

Speaking of Sparg0, locals don't tell much, but if the 3-0's he had against top level mains of characters that are supposedly favored against Cloud () are a sign of things to come.... then goddang lol.

What results has Luigi gotten? From what I've seen he's nowhere near Pythra's level. I agree you can't determine how good a character is offline based on online but Pythra's lesser results offline, and they're still great (Cosmos won a tournament don't forget), are largely circumstantial. While Japan had transitioned back to offline, Sparg0 was still winning online events. What the main Pythra players have entered, they've done well in but they haven't had a chance to shine big time yet. It's for lack of oppertunity, not that they're doing poorly. With MKLeo, Sparg0 and Cosmos backing them I fully expect their online streak to continue offline.

Maester beat Cloudy but Maester was 6th best in the world. Is Cloudy even in the top 100? He's probably factoring in skill. That's just one example; Spargo's Pythra has beaten Maester. IDK the MU. I'm just going by what Cloudy said.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Going by offline resutls the only FP2 character that you call even close to getting "problematic" level is Min-Min thanks to Protobahams dominance in Japan. But even then that is just a single albeit big region.

Right now it looks like Pyra/Mythra are not going to become this games SSB4 Cloud in regards to results and total oversaturation in the competitve meta. Even if they are indeed top 5 material

 

[SwagGuy99]

What results has Luigi gotten?

Online, I think at this point it just seems to be Kiyarash doing well at the larger events with him. I think back in 2020 when WaKa/Jr./Elegant were more active online, his online results were legitimately good, but we've seemed to have moved past that. Luigi's offline results from right before the online era combined with the results he's gotten since then are likely better compared to the cast's as a whole than his online results are currently

If we're talking online results only, then they are doing extremely well (though you could say the same for someone like Luigi, and no one seems to think he's anywhere near high tier)

The funny part about this is that in early 2020, Luigi was generally accepted to be high tier and had the results to back that up.

Opinions on Luigi fell off super hard around the start of the online era. I've speculated that it was probably because of a combination of Elegant's lack of activity in online events, Luigi's weaknesses being easier to exploit online, and Luigi's overall lack of results online before Kiyarash started doing well with him. People's opinions on Luigi don't seem to have raised significantly since the beginning of the wifi era (outside of a few players like ESAM who severely underrated him in the offline era) despite Elegant doing well at the offline events he's attended recently.

 

[blackghost]

first MU for kazuya im comfortable talking about is bayonetta and simply put its downright horrific. its latte so ill put up a detailed breakdown later but the jest is:
1. bayo cannot break armor thresholds
2. bayo doesnt snap ledge.
3. bayo landing lag for special means kazuya gets to pick a combo starter for free often
4. weight
5-10 rage drive. like dear god this is a nightmare in of itself. this factor alone may push the mu to 55-45.

the main positives is there are a few combos and setups bayo (and mythra) can escape. but bayo still takes 50 percent of the dmaage so thats only gonna help so much. 50 percent of kazuya damage is sill more than most characters per hit.

second positive is her advantage state. he is vulnerable to unique pseudo setups due to his jumpsquat. once in the air he can be toyed with.

 

[KirbySquad101]

What results has Luigi gotten? From what I've seen he's nowhere near Pythra's level. I agree you can't determine how good a character is offline based on online but Pythra's lesser results offline, and they're still great (Cosmos won a tournament don't forget), are largely circumstantial. While Japan had transitioned back to offline, Sparg0 was still winning online events. What the main Pythra players have entered, they've done well in but they haven't had a chance to shine big time yet. It's for lack of oppertunity, not that they're doing poorly. With MKLeo, Sparg0 and Cosmos backing them I fully expect their online streak to continue offline.

Maester beat Cloudy but Maester was 6th best in the world. Is Cloudy even in the top 100? He's probably factoring in skill. That's just one example; Spargo's Pythra has beaten Maester. IDK the MU. I'm just going by what Cloudy said.

I recall in terms of online, Luigi did have a lot of sucess with Kiyarsah and WaKa, nearly Top 8'ing every online tourney they attended, and Wise did really well in his region, even qualifying for the SA qualifier. Most notably, Kiyarsah placed 2nd at the NA Southwest qualifier. Now, this is concerning online, and from what I can tell, Kiyarsah's offline and online performances look night and day. Though Yamanaction did place well at Kagaribi 4 just recently (even beating HIKARU and Umeki along the way), and Elegant is a factor to consider.

As for Maister and Cloudy, Maister is the better player, but Cloudy has taken games off of him before with other characters. He's only ever gone 0-3 against him one other time, so this does highlight a much weaker performance than expected. I am curious to see if Sparg0 can continue to his dominance against him offline, though.

I'm not trying to say that MKLeo, Cloudy, and other players will never be able to prove that Pythra is as strong as the MU chart puts her out to be, but given that other characters with similarily optimistic MU charts like Sonic, Pika, and Greninja have failed to live up to such theory, it is definitely a case of "I need to see it to believe it" in my eyes. Doubly so since their success is most likely going to depend on a handful of players, as opposed to the armadas backing up characters like Roy or ROB.

 

[StrangeKitten]

Speaking of Joker has anyone had any experience with Kazuya vs Joker? Joker is already so dominant in a match so oppression is a given but is Kazuya able to answer his speed and arsene?

Tough to say much for certain, since I lack a practice partner, but the lv 9 CPU everyone's been touting feels very easy to run circles around as Joker. His mobility lends itself to pretty frequent whiff punishes, and camping with Gun and Eiha goes a long way. Joker can also juggle Kazuya well thanks to Kazuya's poor air stats. And, while Kazuya's double jump makes his recovery strong, it's still just weak enough that Gun can be used for safe edguarding. I think this will end up as a good matchup for Joker, though Kazuya will still have his pluses. Kazuya can make comebacks well, especially considering Joker's lack of kill power without Arsene, and Kazuya's down smash is probably very good against Wings of Rebellion.

first MU for kazuya im comfortable talking about is bayonetta and simply put its downright horrific. its latte so ill put up a detailed breakdown later but the jest is:
1. bayo cannot break armor thresholds
2. bayo doesnt snap ledge.
3. bayo landing lag for special means kazuya gets to pick a combo starter for free often
4. weight
5-10 rage drive. like dear god this is a nightmare in of itself. this factor alone may push the mu to 55-45.

the main positives is there are a few combos and setups bayo (and mythra) can escape. but bayo still takes 50 percent of the dmaage so thats only gonna help so much. 50 percent of kazuya damage is sill more than most characters per hit.

second positive is her advantage state. he is vulnerable to unique pseudo setups due to his jumpsquat. once in the air he can be toyed with.

Learning Bayo has really made me wish she snapped ledge better. I'd love to see this buffed in a patch, as she'd only be low high tier at best even with a good ledge snap, imo.

 

[Sucumbio]

.
Pretty good set.

Dittos.

 

[Iron Maw]

Speaking of Joker has anyone had any experience with Kazuya vs Joker? Joker is already so dominant in a match so oppression is a given but is Kazuya able to answer his speed and arsene?

Only watched a bit of this awhile since I;m a bit busy atm, but it didn't look bad for Kazuya from what I saw.

 

[Sucumbio]

Only watched a bit of this awhile since I;m a bit busy atm, but it didn't look bad for Kazuya from what I saw.

See the pressure is relentless which is why I wanna see mkleo face a top Kazuya. This joker was too predictable and didn't even try to evade Kazuya's buttons which is a played out strategy anyway because arsene coming out isn't a guaranteed stock.

PS Ryu in vendetta's hands is scary af even online. But inputs are something that just sucks online and you lose stocks vs offline where's because you chose wrong. And is it me but did esam basically let fear get the better of him? I mean he said it like over and over then lost lol

 

[TennisBall]

What results has Luigi gotten? From what I've seen he's nowhere near Pythra's level. I agree you can't determine how good a character is offline based on online but Pythra's lesser results offline, and they're still great (Cosmos won a tournament don't forget), are largely circumstantial. While Japan had transitioned back to offline, Sparg0 was still winning online events. What the main Pythra players have entered, they've done well in but they haven't had a chance to shine big time yet. It's for lack of oppertunity, not that they're doing poorly. With MKLeo, Sparg0 and Cosmos backing them I fully expect their online streak to continue offline.

Maester beat Cloudy but Maester was 6th best in the world. Is Cloudy even in the top 100? He's probably factoring in skill. That's just one example; Spargo's Pythra has beaten Maester. IDK the MU. I'm just going by what Cloudy said.

Elegant landed 13th at Frostbite.

 

[Aaron1997]

Akakikusu's Hero MU Chart

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[RonNewcomb]

I don't know how to read a MU chart that has Little Mac on one end and Isabelle on the other.

srsly halp

 

[Nobie]

I feel like I'm seeing a lot more effort put into learning Kazuya than a lot of DLC characters, and I think it's that Ultimate doesn't have a whole lot of "body" characters, i.e. those focused on mastering execution, or rather, not that many who rely on tech at every aspect of play. Ryu, Ken, and Terry have the combos, but movement tech isn't ESSENTIAL for them the way it is for Kazuya. Whether it was everything Melee or Smash 4 perfect pivots, I think a good chunk of players look forward to this stuff.

And of course, the reward for this mastery seems limitless, which adds to the appeal. If Kazuya were likely a low tier, I don't think we'd be seeing so much collective effort.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

I don't know how to read a MU chart that has Little Mac on one end and Isabelle on the other.

srsly halp

I think it is because Mac’s speed always puts him in Hero’s face, which is bad for him and Mac can bull**** through Hero’s bull****

 

[blackghost]

I feel like I'm seeing a lot more effort put into learning Kazuya than a lot of DLC characters, and I think it's that Ultimate doesn't have a whole lot of "body" characters, i.e. those focused on mastering execution, or rather, not that many who rely on tech at every aspect of play. Ryu, Ken, and Terry have the combos, but movement tech isn't ESSENTIAL for them the way it is for Kazuya. Whether it was everything Melee or Smash 4 perfect pivots, I think a good chunk of players look forward to this stuff.

And of course, the reward for this mastery seems limitless, which adds to the appeal. If Kazuya were likely a low tier, I don't think we'd be seeing so much collective effort.

i mean ice climbers are proof of your hypothesis. a character can have huge potential for movement and combos but if the collective still thinks you are bad then it wont matter. you are right thats why we also see so many people pushing steve as well because his limitations are only what you can think up.

 

[StrangeKitten]

Movement might even be the most important thing in the game. I feel like Kazuya's excellent movement options are going to make him a very strong character

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Results from Impact #10

本日のリザルトです！
Impact#10 優勝はGW | ザクレイ選手(@Ssb4_Zackray )でした！おめでとうございます！

アーカイブはこちら👇https://t.co/0hpZFUR3v4

次回のImpact#11は7月16日です！
またの参加をお待ちしております！！#町田Impact pic.twitter.com/cctHAXJe8f

— IMPACT ARENA (@ImpactArena_) July 9, 2021

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Super Smash Stadium Edition Top 16 Seeding

1. Charliedaking
2. Mr. E
3. Leon
4. Ogey
5. Raflow
6. VinS
7. Neeroz
8. Maeda
9. Manda
10. TriM
11. RyuKai
12. Mezcaul
13. Adrian
14. Otakuni
15. MoDzai
16. Eko

Edit: Results for Super Smash Stadium Edition

1. Mr. E
2. Leon
3. Charliedaking
4. TriM
5. Manda
5. Raflow
7. Neeroz
7. Sirknight

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Results for Abierto Puerto Vallarta

1. Chag
2. Sparg0
3. Pineda
4. Bernie
5. Panti
5. Ripka
7. SeVeR
7. Inaqui
9. Q
9. JMV
9. Ely
9. 4LRayonier
13. D'Taku
13. Gio(n.n)/
13. Zaeko
13. Paco

Seems as though Palutena is still very strong after the nerfs, even though we thought those were the second harshest nerfs outside of Wario's. A lot of Lucina success has started again just when we thought this character has been falling off with Proto, Mr. E and Leon too. Also Chag is probably the best Palu now that Nairo isn't competing anymore and Abadango is playing Pikachu now.

 

[SKX31]

Larry interviewed Protobanham recently:

Main topic is Kagaribi, whether or not Proto will focus mainly on Min Min etc.

 

[The_Bookworm]

It has now been about 2 weeks after got released.

While it is still kinda too early to get a definitive assessment on the character's viability, I am curious on what you guys think of the character now that some time has passed.

 

[SwagGuy99]

It has now been about 2 weeks after got released.

While it is still kinda too early to get a definitive assessment on the character's viability, I am curious on what you guys think of the character now that some time has passed.

Beek (one of the better EU Shoto mains) has an outlook on Kazuya that I find myself agreeing with for the most part:

He has the best ground movement by far (atleast on tas level i guess), but his air mobility is absolute garbage. Frame 6 jumpsquat and bottom 10 air speed, against fast mobile characters you're fucked if they don't fuck up tbh. And his 0 to deaths require starters

— Beek (@DerBeekus) July 12, 2021

He feels like a Luigi Shoto tbh. He has the best advantage state / combo game by far, but he also has the worst disadvantage by far. I feel like his MU chart will be very all over the place

— Beek (@DerBeekus) July 12, 2021

Riddles also seems to think that Terry is better than Kazuya, citing speed as a major reason as to why that is:

I think people underestimate how important speed is at the toppest levels of play, but thats a discussion for another time

— Liquid | Riddles (@RiddlesMK) July 11, 2021

I agree with Beek on this I think. Kazuya will likely have a very all over the place, potentially below average matchup spread due to how polarizing he is, but I could see him having niche matchups where he does fine. I feel like this character will settle around being mid tier in the long run.

 

[Nobie]

Beek (one of the better EU Shoto mains) has an outlook on Kazuya that I find myself agreeing with for the most part:

He has the best ground movement by far (atleast on tas level i guess), but his air mobility is absolute garbage. Frame 6 jumpsquat and bottom 10 air speed, against fast mobile characters you're fucked if they don't fuck up tbh. And his 0 to deaths require starters

— Beek (@DerBeekus) July 12, 2021

He feels like a Luigi Shoto tbh. He has the best advantage state / combo game by far, but he also has the worst disadvantage by far. I feel like his MU chart will be very all over the place

— Beek (@DerBeekus) July 12, 2021

Riddles also seems to think that Terry is better than Kazuya, citing speed as a major reason as to why that is:

I think people underestimate how important speed is at the toppest levels of play, but thats a discussion for another time

— Liquid | Riddles (@RiddlesMK) July 11, 2021

I agree with Beek on this I think. Kazuya will likely have a very all over the place, potentially below average matchup spread due to how polarizing he is, but I could see him having niche matchups where he does fine. I feel like this character will settle around being mid tier in the long run.

While I'm not sure anyone underestimates the importance of speed at the top level (It's practically a defining trait of most high and top tiers), I have been thinking about how much Kazuya's poor jump squat makes him vulnerable to grabs.

In addition to grab boxes just being nerfed in general and shield grabs being worse compared to Smash 4, the grab box against airborne opponents is significantly worse than the one for grounded opponents. For all other characters, that once-universal Frame-3 jump squat was the most reliable way to avoid grabs, and Kazuya just doesn't have access to it. The quickest grabs are Frame 6, the next are Frame 7. He has backdash and other ground mobility tools (as well as spot dodge), but what about mobile/long grabs like tethers, Alolan Whip, or Monkey Flip? Those are slower, but he literally has less time to react because his jump squat is so slow.

For the speedier grabs, they usually come at the expense of range, which means having to get close to Kazuya, but I think it changes a lot of how we should think about his options in the RPS.

 

[Frihetsanka]

It has now been about 2 weeks after got released.

While it is still kinda too early to get a definitive assessment on the character's viability, I am curious on what you guys think of the character now that some time has passed.

Most likely not top tier. Most likely not low tier. So... Either high or mid tier. Could go either way, depends on a number of factors.

 

[meleebrawler]

Acting like the huge EWGF combos are the only reason you want to play Kazuya is probably something that's going to hamstring anyone's attempts to get better with him in the long run.

I prefer to think of his moves as different pieces to a block puzzle that changes based on the character you face and their habits. And if the opponent insists on playing Smash rather than Tekken by trying to avoid his more potent ground normals with air assaults, he can play that game with his specials until they stop. It's amazing how much mileage I get just anti-airing with up special over and over again, or Heaven's Door on the speedy low damage types.

While I'm not sure anyone underestimates the importance of speed at the top level (It's practically a defining trait of most high and top tiers), I have been thinking about how much Kazuya's poor jump squat makes him vulnerable to grabs.

In addition to grab boxes just being nerfed in general and shield grabs being worse compared to Smash 4, the grab box against airborne opponents is significantly worse than the one for grounded opponents. For all other characters, that once-universal Frame-3 jump squat was the most reliable way to avoid grabs, and Kazuya just doesn't have access to it. The quickest grabs are Frame 6, the next are Frame 7. He has backdash and other ground mobility tools (as well as spot dodge), but what about mobile/long grabs like tethers, Alolan Whip, or Monkey Flip? Those are slower, but he literally has less time to react because his jump squat is so slow.

For the speedier grabs, they usually come at the expense of range, which means having to get close to Kazuya, but I think it changes a lot of how we should think about his options in the RPS.

Well, stuff like back+up jump kick and forward+up spin kicks momentarily have Kazuya hop quickly and the former especially has generous intangibility to boot. Then, if well-placed wavedashes don't help, just crouching gives him access to Tombstone Crusher, which if timed right can at least phase through a grab with invincibility, if not beat it outright with deceptive range. And if all else fails, his precise movement can help just stay just outside of a tether grab range and wait for a chance. Not to mention Rage which gives him a super-strong command grab with comparable if not more so reach to tethers. Basically, you have to have already gotten through his defences somehow before he really becomes susceptible to being grabbed.

I honestly feel like there's very few characters that Kazuya doesn't have at least decent answers for or can handle with enough patience. What concerns me more with him is stage selection, he really wants low platforms that let him shark with low-jump aerials and air command grabs.

 

[Arthur97]

There is also the Marth (though Peach might be a more apt comparison) conundrum. In the end, how many will commit themselves to using such a different and complicated fighter (that seemingly plays like a different game) when they could get similar if not better results with another (that may better resemble the game they've put so much time into)? Not to mention the apparent lack of margin for error.

 

[The_Bookworm]

To me feels like the Luigi or Ganon of the FGC characters. In comparison to the others, he feels imbalanced.

Huge explosive damage once he comes in, with damage and KO power unprecedented by pretty much anyone else, as well as his entire moveset having deceptive hitboxes and safety. Grab game is also pretty good with above average grab range and good throws. A lot of factors behind his moveset feels very "DLC" if you know what I am saying.
However, then there is his awful air mobility, poor startup frame data, and poor overall disadvantage state. Grounded approach, will versatile thanks to semi-invincible Crouch Dash, can be very tricky, and as beek says, his best combo starters are either slow or have meh range.

The end result is that Kazuya is likely one of the game's most polarizing characters.

In comparison to lets say .
He is probably the most well-rounded of the FGC characters, but still has that very explosive factor with his GO moves and still has a strong combo game.
He still has everything you need while no where near as burdened with the weaknesses Kazuya has.
is a bit less well-rounded than Terry imo, but still has that strong advantage state (exceptionally strong in Ken's case), while also having amazing frame data and a very solid projectile (exceptionally strong in Ryu's case). They also have Focus Attack to fall upon on in certain situations.


In low/mid level play, Kazuya is probably a character where he can beat anyone, but anyone could beat him in return.
In high level play, I could see him having higher tiered matchups that he does well against, but for the most part, a lot of them seems very troublesome for him.
In the current moment, I too consider Kazuya probably among the mid tiers (for reference, I put the other FGC characters in high tier).



On a quite side note: a saw a tweet that does raise a question.
What is Kazuya supposed to do against ?
I haven't seen this matchup in play, but on paper, this matchup sounds absolutely awful for Kazuya. Perhaps someone here with more experience on this could enlighten me?

 

[Ziodyne 21]

To me feels like the Luigi or Ganon of the FGC characters. In comparison to the others, he feels imbalanced.

Huge explosive damage once he comes in, with damage and KO power unprecedented by pretty much anyone else, as well as his entire moveset having deceptive hitboxes and safety. Grab game is also pretty good with above average grab range and good throws. A lot of factors behind his moveset feels very "DLC" if you know what I am saying.
However, then there is his awful air mobility, poor startup frame data, and poor overall disadvantage state. Grounded approach, will versatile thanks to semi-invincible Crouch Dash, can be very tricky, and as beek says, his best combo starters are either slow or have meh range.

The end result is that Kazuya is likely one of the game's most polarizing characters.

In comparison to lets say .
He is probably the most well-rounded of the FGC characters, but still has that very explosive factor with his GO moves and still has a strong combo game.
He still has everything you need while no where near as burdened with the weaknesses Kazuya has.
is a bit less well-rounded than Terry imo, but still has that strong advantage state (exceptionally strong in Ken's case), while also having amazing frame data and a very solid projectile (exceptionally strong in Ryu's case). They also have Focus Attack to fall upon on in certain situations.


In low/mid level play, Kazuya is probably a character where he can beat anyone, but anyone could beat him in return.
In high level play, I could see him having higher tiered matchups that he does well against, but for the most part, a lot of them seems very troublesome for him.
In the current moment, I too consider Kazuya probably among the mid tiers (for reference, I put the other FGC characters in high tier).



On a quite side note: a saw a tweet that does raise a question.
What is Kazuya supposed to do against ?
I haven't seen this matchup in play, but on paper, this matchup sounds absolutely awful for Kazuya. Perhaps someone here with more experience on this could enlighten me?

Yeah I cant see that MU being nothing but a nightmare for Kazuya. Another MU i see just an enteral struggle is actullay. I mean yeah Kazuya can combo him hard in advatsge. But otherwise Bowser kills faster. survives longer. Does not care about Kazuya's armour. In fact most of Kazuya's main combo starters can be beat out with a Up-B or. Side-B on reaction

 

[Nobie]

Well, stuff like back+up jump kick and forward+up spin kicks momentarily have Kazuya hop quickly and the former especially has generous intangibility to boot. Then, if well-placed wavedashes don't help, just crouching gives him access to Tombstone Crusher, which if timed right can at least phase through a grab with invincibility, if not beat it outright with deceptive range. And if all else fails, his precise movement can help just stay just outside of a tether grab range and wait for a chance. Not to mention Rage which gives him a super-strong command grab with comparable if not more so reach to tethers. Basically, you have to have already gotten through his defences somehow before he really becomes susceptible to being grabbed.

I honestly feel like there's very few characters that Kazuya doesn't have at least decent answers for or can handle with enough patience. What concerns me more with him is stage selection, he really wants low platforms that let him shark with low-jump aerials and air command grabs.

While Kazuya has all those tools, they're nowhere near as non-committal as simple short hops by most characters. Kazuya has to put a lot more thought and intent into avoiding grabs. Riddles has said something along the lines of Kazuya being a more exhausting character to play, and that endurance factor might end up being his biggest weakness.

 

[meleebrawler]

To me feels like the Luigi or Ganon of the FGC characters. In comparison to the others, he feels imbalanced.

Huge explosive damage once he comes in, with damage and KO power unprecedented by pretty much anyone else, as well as his entire moveset having deceptive hitboxes and safety. Grab game is also pretty good with above average grab range and good throws. A lot of factors behind his moveset feels very "DLC" if you know what I am saying.
However, then there is his awful air mobility, poor startup frame data, and poor overall disadvantage state. Grounded approach, will versatile thanks to semi-invincible Crouch Dash, can be very tricky, and as beek says, his best combo starters are either slow or have meh range.

The end result is that Kazuya is likely one of the game's most polarizing characters.

In comparison to lets say .
He is probably the most well-rounded of the FGC characters, but still has that very explosive factor with his GO moves and still has a strong combo game.
He still has everything you need while no where near as burdened with the weaknesses Kazuya has.
is a bit less well-rounded than Terry imo, but still has that strong advantage state (exceptionally strong in Ken's case), while also having amazing frame data and a very solid projectile (exceptionally strong in Ryu's case). They also have Focus Attack to fall upon on in certain situations.


In low/mid level play, Kazuya is probably a character where he can beat anyone, but anyone could beat him in return.
In high level play, I could see him having higher tiered matchups that he does well against, but for the most part, a lot of them seems very troublesome for him.
In the current moment, I too consider Kazuya probably among the mid tiers (for reference, I put the other FGC characters in high tier).



On a quite side note: a saw a tweet that does raise a question.
What is Kazuya supposed to do against ?
I haven't seen this matchup in play, but on paper, this matchup sounds absolutely awful for Kazuya. Perhaps someone here with more experience on this could enlighten me?

Kazuya can use his up special as a makeshift "Jump Glide" to at the very least get to a more comfortable distance, while still retaining his double jump if he needs a landing mixup. And if she jumps after him he can Demon Scissors back to earth quickly, and depending on stage layout some air lasers could also help.

 

[Sucumbio]

It has now been about 2 weeks after got released.

While it is still kinda too early to get a definitive assessment on the character's viability, I am curious on what you guys think of the character now that some time has passed.

I need to see more top play before I get there but in the meantime I have to agree with the concerns raised over his frames.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Funnily enough on thetalk, Tweek did a Tweek Talks recently where they were going to an entire episode on their thoughts on Kazuya, which ended up getting corrupted so they had to do a TL;DR version, which is that they think the character has very strong pros and cons all around similarly to , meaning they think he's going to worse than in the long run.
Here's a link before the Youtube Video goes up.

Twitch

Twitch is the world's leading video platform and community for gamers.

www.twitch.tv

Other things from their podcast episode includes:
Tweek now has changed his opinion from the tier list episode and now thinks that Pyra/Mythra are better than and potentially top 3 alongside and . He's also been playing the character with Bee, though he doesn't seem to be playing the character seriously in a tournament.
Pink Fresh thinks Min Min is better then he thought on the Tier List episode too.
They talk about how Zackray, Tea and Proto are all far and away the best in Japan atm with KEN, Kome and Shuton coming close.
Discussion on how a lot of the "Wifi Warriors" have started performing extremely well offline, including Sonix, Chag and Sparg0 and that they have gone from top 100-top 50 players, to top 20-top 10 or even have top 5 potential.

 

[meleebrawler]

Yeah I cant see that MU being nothing but a nightmare for Kazuya. Another MU i see just an enteral struggle is actullay. I mean yeah Kazuya can combo him hard in advatsge. But otherwise Bowser kills faster. survives longer. Does not care about Kazuya's armour. In fact most of Kazuya's ma8n combo starters can be beat out with a Up-B or. Side-B on reaction

And I still maintain that Bowser and Kazuya have so many similar tools that I have hard time believing either one has a big advantage over the other. It's just an extremely volatile one that tends to generate salt.

One thing Kazuya can take advantage of very well is that Bowser's big body makes it very hard for him to slip by lasers, making them more annoying when trying to land than for most.

Also, when I hear "this character makes it hard for Kazuya to land his combo starters!", I just think... then don't go for them then. Even if he's only landing spacing moves that only lead to basic strings at best, he hits so hard on everything that he'll likely outpace you in damage and kills anyway.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

IIts

And I still maintain that Bowser and Kazuya have so many similar tools that I have hard time believing either one has a big advantage over the other. It's just an extremely volatile one that tends to generate salt.

One thing Kazuya can take advantage of very well is that Bowser's big body makes it very hard for him to slip by lasers, making them more annoying when trying to land than for most.

Also, when I hear "this character makes it hard for Kazuya to land his combo starters!", I just think... then don't go for them then. Even if he's only landing spacing moves that only lead to basic strings at best, he hits so hard on everything that he'll likely outpace you in damage and kills anyway.

I mean its not just combo starters in the MU. Bowser generally has higher mobility, range and start frame data while matching Kazuya's damage by per hit basis. Bowser can control the bass of neutral unless he does something especially unsafe. I mean Bowsers up-b starts at frame 6 and side-b at frame 8. I think those two specials are faster startup than most of Kazuya's optimal cqc buttons.


Command Grabs may be troublesome for Kazuya in general due to his terrible jumpsquat. It leaves jumping as an escape option unreliable so Kazuya basically has to tey and spotdodge or roll and guess right..

 

[SKX31]

It has now been about 2 weeks after got released.

While it is still kinda too early to get a definitive assessment on the character's viability, I am curious on what you guys think of the character now that some time has passed.

Okay, this is going to be speculative - by neccessity since this is still very early days for the character and we likely won't know with any degree of accuracy until 2022 rolls around at least. Still:

On a top level I feel that he's going to be dependent on now just getting consistent Electrics but also mixing up the Crouch Dash options consistently and getting as much % as possible out of the openings he manages to get. How many openings he gets per stock is going to be very difficult to say right now, but if he only needs say 3-4 to KO someone on average he'll be extremely dangerous to approach.

Proto in the above linked video called Kazuya a "Muscular Luigi" (31:40) and I can def. see where he's going with that. Doesn't have many tools to play a long range game despite the intangible hitboxes and what not, but when he gets in ooh boy the damage racks up fast. Does have the aformentioned air problems, although his aerials are not shabby at all and can make it difficult to contest him... if he's anywhere close that is. Which does present a problem for Kazuya players where his opponents can choose a less commital option or space away from his aerials.

Of course, prominent zoners (not just and , but including them) are likely going to cause major issues for Kazuya - while top Kazuyas can and will often get by a lot of stuff with Crouch Dash's and his attacks' intangibility it only takes one or a couple projectiles to send the Kazuya back to neutral (not helped by the reflector kick having a lot of endlag making it rather impractical). Characters and players that are good at juggling will likewise pose a significant obstacle for him because that's one of the safer ways to rack up damage on him.

Still I do think Kazuya has the potential to have a good overall matchup spread - his disjoints and intangible moves make it very difficult to get up close for most of the cast, and maintaining a lead on him is going to be very difficult when most of his tilts do 15 %+ and he has combo starters out of the wazoo. While his normal stats are bad he does have the ability to close in due to the Crouch Dash. CD does also lead to three different attacks - giving it a lot more versatility than just the leadup to EWGF. Dragon Uppercut for example is a stupidly strong finisher even if it's hella commital.

As far as stages go I do think he's going to want stages with wider blastzones - he doesn't have any trouble killing and would like to survive for longer. As far as platforms go his players might think it's better to go for say Kalos than Battlefield, because Kalos' platforms are at the edge and allow some recovery mixups. Which might be a problem during a set since an opponent may choose to ban Kazuya's best stage or at least force one game in a Bo3 to be on a pretty bad stage for him. While this is something every character has to contend with it's particularily important for Kazuya due to the jumpsquat and general movement hindrances.

I do think that he'll also suffer a bit from the volatility problem akin to : where the current double elimination system means that a truely bad MU or loss hurts a lot. Due to that and how technical he is not a lot of people will main him and he'll likely require secondaries for bad MUs, but Kazuya's coming into an ecosystem where most pros have 2-3 characters they switch around anyway, so I think he'll be fine. A pro like ESAM can decide to go mostly Pika or Min Min, then go Kazuya not only to help cover MUs they struggle a bit more in but also to catch the opponent off guard.

Overall, yeah he's likely to be quite polarizing and unlikely to be the tippy-top of top tier, but he's still a character to look out for.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Peak character results from BarnardLoop

Peak Character results (Main & Dual Main) from July 2019 to the present. Haven't done this in a while and decided to strike off Ultimate's first 6 months to see how character achievements fare. 53 managed to at least top 8 some kind of major! pic.twitter.com/4ZoZpMTH5Q

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