Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Gleam]

I'm not sure if it was mentioned but Orion was updated around the 30th, the overall placement of characters I think can still be sporadic but we can at least see how some characters are fairing especially if you remember their numbers. have made a significant jump to #49, rising from about 6 points to 20 points.


meanwhile dropped from #35 to #45. I think Dr. Mario throughout his tenure has really done much better than what his "Bottom" tier sayers would imply, but we can't be too surprised about this drop regardless.

now has more points than he did at the end of Phase 03, which ain't much but hey, it's something.

still has 0 points and look, I'm just going to say it. This character hasn't done jackity poop squat since they got here. Her interactions throughout the tenure have just been weak, only really enhanced offline by that one time MKLeo used her. But now we're back to offline, with a perfect chance for her playebase to at least get some points. I guess you could argue that, Byleth is still pretty young within the offline system, as she barely had any time to make a note Pre-COVID and we've only just started Post-Covid Offline.

I'm willing to give Byleth the benefit of the doubt and let more time pass, but she needs to pick up her game. And I don't mean just have MKLeo use her, I mean her playerbase as a whole needs to pick up their game. Because if the only person who can do jack with this character is the best player in the world, that doesn't really say much to the effect of Byleth, much as it does to the player himself.

 

[toonito]

OrionStats - Smash Ultimate 2021 TTS (Updated December 25th)

docs.google.com

Orionstats updated through June 30th

biggest jump from last data update (6/11): Min Min jumped 28 spots to #26 from #54

biggest drop from last data update (6/11): Young Link dropped 15 spots from #9 to #24

Roy is now #2 and between Hikaru's win at Maesuma and one of Kola's mains (Kola was surging with Roy pre-pandemic) future continues to look bright for our boy. According to Orionstats, Roy, Lucina, and Shulk have been the best performing swordies in Ultimate's lifespan. oof for Marth who is outperformed by both of his clones.

Consistent characters like Marth, Pikachu, and Fox are currently not ranked top 20. If Ultimate ended today one can argue that Ultimate boasted the weakest competitive versions of these 3 veterans. Captain Falcon and Sheik are currently ranked 11 and 12.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I thought it was widely accepted that Byleth isn't good?

 

[TDK]

for what it's worth, Rizeasu recently got 2nd at a 128-man offline tournament using (partially) Byleth. So he won't be at 0 for much longer, but he's still in very dire straits.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Pelupelu was also another notable that got some pretty notable results online.

Outside of him and MkLeo, Byleth is one of the rarer characters in the game. With MkLeo likely focusing back on Joker once offline goes back into full swing, with him likely just putting him as a back-up character, we likely won't see much more of him unless someone else tunes up (or Pelupelu competes offline and places well).

Consistent characters like Marth, Pikachu, and Fox are currently not ranked top 20. If Ultimate ended today one can argue that Ultimate boasted the weakest competitive versions of these 3 veterans. Captain Falcon and Sheik are currently ranked 11 and 12.

I am kinda surprised even has 16 points. Has more players picked him up?


Also, Fox had arguably lower downs than simply being #27/80 in the TTS.
was undeniably pretty good, but was still lower-high/upper-mid tier.
I also heard that is not at a very good spot in the current 64 meta. is widely considered to have passed him and some argues that may have as well. Not sure how true this is today since I haven't really kept up with the Smash 64 meta since early 2018, but that is something.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Byleth just isn’t a popular character and they aren’t good enough that people aside Blyleth fans are going to play them, for which I assume aren’t many. I’m not a FE fan but I don’t ever hear much about Byleth as a character when it comes to popularity rankings.

Byleth is just a casualty of when you have 80+ fighters in a roster for a fighting game, the lines between the characters start to blur and characters start to feel similar to each other. If I don’t care about Byleth as a character and their playstyle isnt intriguing or different enough from the other characters similar to them why play them over better characters?

If you don’t play Byleth or if you do tell us why. I think you’ll find a common trend in the answers.

 

[The_Bookworm]

If you don’t play Byleth or if you do tell us why. I think you’ll find a common trend in the answers.

On my quest to get every character to Elite Smash, Byleth was a character I spent quite a bit of time with. He eventually just grew on me progressively more and more as time went on (MkLeo's Byleth also influenced me).

I liked his long-reaching (+ big) buttons, with a mix of clutch speedy close-range buttons (namely jab and nair), as well as having some very strong moves as clutch and very long-reaching arrows I could cancel out of. So yeah, while I do play the distance game, I like to turtle as times.

It also helped that I also played a lot of Corrin in SSB4 and Belmont in the early Ultimate days (you know, back when people thought the character was high tier), so I had somewhat of a base to work off of.

 

[Wigglerman]

I doubt this is news but I hadn't seen it mentioned. You can 'short cut' his dash for what I feel are easier electrics. Similar to Ryu for true shoryos, you can double flick down/forward on the stick and still get the dash. I especially struggle to do the dash motion normally when facing right but the stick flick method has made me able to do it consistently though my speed at doing it consecutively to cancel into another dash needs work so that's just on me.

 

[Arthur97]

Byleth just isn’t a popular character and they aren’t good enough that people aside Blyleth fans are going to play them, for which I assume aren’t many. I’m not a FE fan but I don’t ever hear much about Byleth as a character when it comes to popularity rankings.

Byleth is just a casualty of when you have 80+ fighters in a roster for a fighting game, the lines between the characters start to blur and characters start to feel similar to each other. If I don’t care about Byleth as a character and their playstyle isnt intriguing or different enough from the other characters similar to them why play them over better characters?

If you don’t play Byleth or if you do tell us why. I think you’ll find a common trend in the answers.

They aren't all that popular...in the West, but are apparently fairly popular in Japan. However, FE popularity doesn't necessarily mean Smash popularity. Especially not competitively. See how Female Robin at least seemed to ve favored though that seems to have evened out a bit if not flipped with more players coming up. But, in the end, the competitive scene may not have much overlap with FE fans. Plus, look at how the Smash community treats FE. May be some bad blood to boot.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I thought it was widely accepted that Byleth isn't good?

Byleth is generally seen as mid tier nowadays. Whether or not that means they're good is up to the individual.

 

[Wigglerman]

Byleth is generally seen as mid tier nowadays. Whether or not that means they're good is up to the individual.

This is why 'good' and 'bad' as terms are kind of useless without references or if talking objectively vs subjectively. XD

In the case of 'good vs bad' in the context of viability, anyone in Mid is 'good'. They've got enough going for them to be worthwhile investing time into and could have surprisingly good match ups. However they're, clearly, not as 'good' as those in the tiers above them.

 

[StrangeKitten]

I feel like Byleth falls into the category of "too slow to truly be good". Ganondorf, Doc, Incineroar, Robin, and K Rool to a bit lesser of an extent, all fall into this, imo. I could see Kazuya also fall into this, though he has far more to help him play around his on-paper-slow-stats, so it remains to be seen.

 

[Arthur97]

I feel like Byleth falls into the category of "too slow to truly be good". Ganondorf, Doc, Incineroar, Robin, and K Rool to a bit lesser of an extent, all fall into this, imo. I could see Kazuya also fall into this, though he has far more to help him play around his on-paper-slow-stats, so it remains to be seen.

Snake.

Movement is generally important, but it's not always a deal breaker.

 

[Firox]

Snake.

Movement is generally important, but it's not always a deal breaker.

True. In Snake's case, he has a good enough zoning game to make the opponent have to move in his stead.

 

[The_Bookworm]

True. In Snake's case, he has a good enough zoning game to make the opponent have to move in his stead.

Plus Snake's dash attack is a thing.... that exists.
And in Brawl, he has that, plus the ability the slide across the stage at mach speed with his DACUS, also having access to the Gatling Combo on top of all of that.

 

[Arthur97]

Yeah, seems the better slow ones are generally those that can force the opponent where they want them. The Robins also aren't that bad. Not that bad, but not that good. Certainly not with the likes of Ganondorf.

 

[StrangeKitten]

Yeah, seems the better slow ones are generally those that can force the opponent where they want them. The Robins also aren't that bad. Not that bad, but not that good. Certainly not with the likes of Ganondorf.

I didn't mean to imply that Robin was as bad as Ganondorf or anything. Just that they're among the characters whose slowness really holds them back.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Diddy is also has pretty poor air mobility But he he has several tools such as bananas and Monkey flip to still provide pressure and control airspace despite not having technically good air mobility stats.

 

[xzx]

Did some testing, and while I can't confirm 100% since idk the difference between the previous version and the one we have now, it does snap quite fast after you hit someone at the ledge with this move, like I don't need to wait the full animation for Swordfighter to grab the ledge.

If someone can double check to be sure, that would be awesome.

The_Bookworm

I did some testing with Quick Draw yesterday and can confirm they fixed the bug/glitch. Previously you couldn't grab the ledge when hitting someone with this move, but now you can. I tested with both the uncharged version and the fully charged version. Thankfully this is now fixed.

 

[NotLiquid]

A pretty stacked 48-person tournament is currently happening right now in Japan with WINNER! #2. Players like ProtoBanham, Abadango, Tsu, Etsuji, Shuton, Paseriman, KEN and more are in attendance.

Twitch

Twitch is the world's leading video platform and community for gamers.

www.twitch.tv

https://smash.gg/tournament/winner-2/event/singles/brackets/959641/1523099

Right now, Protobanham is sitting in Winners Finals against KEN after having beat Abadango and Tsu seemingly going mainly Min Min. Paseriman took down Nietono and Eim to get into Losers Semis, and is going up against Shuton, who's seemingly going all Pyra/Mythra.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Results for WINNER! #2

1. ProtoBanham
2. Shuton
3. KEN
4. Paseriman
5. Eim
5. Tsu
7. Nietono
7. Akakikusu
9. Abadango
9. Suinoko
9. Kamisuke
9. Umeki

I think the question of Japan atm is who will be the first one to defeat Proto's Min Min? Zackray and Tea didn't go to this tourney btw. There's also the question of whether anyone's going to try picking up to beat Proto. My thoughts are on Zackray as he's the second best and those two characters are in the same archetype.

Also Abadango's is already doing quite a bit better at tournaments then it was last week. He got 33rd at the last WINNER! and 9th at this one.

 

[SKX31]

A pretty stacked 48-person tournament is currently happening right now in Japan with WINNER! #2. Players like ProtoBanham, Abadango, Tsu, Etsuji, Shuton, Paseriman, KEN and more are in attendance.

Right now, Protobanham is sitting in Winners Finals against KEN after having beat Abadango and Tsu seemingly going mainly Min Min. Paseriman took down Nietono and Eim to get into Losers Semis, and is going up against Shuton, who's seemingly going all Pyra/Mythra.

Results for WINNER! #2

1. ProtoBanham
2. Shuton
3. KEN
4. Paseriman
5. Eim
5. Tsu
7. Nietono
7. Akakikusu
9. Abadango
9. Suinoko
9. Kamisuke
9. Umeki

I think the question of Japan atm is who will be the first one to defeat Proto's Min Min? Zackray didn't go to this tourney btw.

There are two things worth noting:

First, Proto used Lucina vs. KEN's Sonic in WB Finals (2-1 Proto, pretty narrowly at that).

Second, Shuton came pretty damn close in both GF games. His Olimar straight up did not care about the ARMS' range since he knew he could likewise rack up enourmous amounts of % of of one conversion or even a Pikmin throw. Now Proto did a better job with close out stocks than Shuton - there were at least a couple instances where Proto was at 180+ % - and that was a main reason why Proto won both GF games. Still I'm bringing that up since the GF games went down to the wire.

Still a great result for Proto all things considered - especially showing tenacity, something that is key at a top-level. But to answer your question Hydreigon, Shuton is certainly a contender to do so judging by today's performance.

 

[NotLiquid]

Min Min is not a very ideal match up for Olimar. An issue comes down to Min Min being a character who doesn't have a lot of problems clanking with Olimar's Pikmin abuse, and having two fast aerials with large hitboxes means she runs no concern of staling her attacks, being able to even just steamroll through Pikmin's latching onto her. It's pretty self-evident in the set itself when the most notable damage Shuton could dispense came out of contained clusters, whereas in contrast, Proto had no problems just running a marathon and make up deficits with multiple neutral exchanges, which even extended to stocks. The dynamic is not very different from the Steve MU in this regard. Shuton has certainly showed improvement over their previous sets now that he relies on Olimar as his most confident option, but he still runs into problems. Ramram is absolutely fiendish in the matchup since it slips under all of Olimar's angles and catches him pretty easily, and Olimar's slow aerial speed also makes him easy edgeguarding material. Perhaps the biggest revelation in Proto's adoption of Min Min is how extremely aggressive his edgeguarding is. Going off-stage is the kind of attitude this character needs to prosper.

Abadango's run with Pikachu is a different thing to consider; watching his sets with Proto I feel like he currently embodies what Pikachu "plays" like to the average pro once you separate it from its theoretical plateau. There's a whole lot of reliance on just its generous frame data and ability to throw out buttons, but the amount of damage Abadango would get off of most exchanges were fairly muted. Lightning loops is an extreme amount of work for the character, and Aba's still got ways to go in that regard. At a cursory glance of most sets I don't feel like Min Min's recovery nerf impacted her bottom line holistically speaking, though it felt more curious with the set against Abadango given Pikachu loves to edgeguard with impunity.

I could've seen KEN exploiting that more, though I reckon going Lucina for Proto's battle against KEN was most likely a boon brought about by his character pool. The Sonic MU is fairly decent for Min Min, but most Lucina players believe that's a matchup she more clearly wins. No reason not to go with the character at that point if you buy into that logic, basically.

 

[Djmarcus44]

I'm loving Mii Gunner (1311) against Kazuya so far.

Obviously, the re-reflect trap is a free stock if you get him to fall for it. If he does, great!

But that's just a one-time trick, whatever. It's the status quo beyond that that is still great. You have amazing linear projectiles against Kazuya and he can't reflect them. He also can't laser punish you. He has to try to fight his way in, through the usual Samus/Gunner parry-my-missiles-and-eat-a-charge-shot bullcrap.

Kazuya's offstage disadvantage is much worse than usual. Mii Gunner is one of the best characters in the game at covering high, and doesn't care about plunging dairs to boot. Lunar Launch grants off-stage downward coverage in a way that can gimp Kazuya, and provides enough recovery to survive Gates of Hell gimps. Missiles and Charge Shot burn air dodges, and reflected offstage Devil Blaster is a KO.

Mii Gunner has crappy ground mobility, frame data, and OoS options. But in this matchup, who cares? Never have those things mattered less. Mediocre grabs and throws? Not a problem today.

Meanwhile, Gunner f-smash shines, beating a very impressive % of the tools of the man-with-a-tool-for-everything. Yes, if you whiff it, you will suffer like you have never suffered before, so just appreciate the attack for what it is. Gunner f-smash traps (and uair/up-b gimps) can provide more sub-100% (no Rage Drive for you) kills than most harassment-based character are used too as an added bonus.

Long story short, Gunner gets to break the rules and ignore Kazuya's anti-camp tools, forcing him to come to you. Unlike Villager, Isaballe, DH, or even PAC-MAN, you have tangible and attractive win conditions in abundance, none of which involve getting in Kazuya's face. And against Kazuyas who have never played a Mii Gunner before, you are almost gauranteed a single stock in one match totally free.

I am glad that you are liking Mii Gunner against Kazuya. Most Gunner players in the discord feel good about the matchup, but we are letting the Kazuya meta develop. I still have a couple of corrections to make.

Gunner's OOS isn't that bad. Up smash has more horizontal range than Cloud's up smash. Gunner also has the best shield grab in the game with range comparable to pre patch Palutena. Nair has good range as a safe aerial (It can outrange Yoshi's dair). Lunar Launch got buffed to 10 frame startup, but it is still the slowest up b OOS. Gunner's arm rocket is a frame 8 escape option OOS with only 14 frames of landing lag. Gunner's cannon jump kick comes out frame 6 with frame 5-7 invincibility, but it isn't used much because of the recovery.

How does a character with a kill confirm from grab have mediocre throws? The only throw that I would consider mediocre is forward throw, and it still combos into dash attack at very low percents. Back throw kills most characters at 160 near the ledge. Down throw combos for a long time into nair. Up throw combos into nair for almost 30 damage, and it has a strong kill confirm into up air.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Some cool findings today in the Kazuya meta.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

So using downback to cancel CD allows Kazuya access to all his grounded options. This includes universal options like shield. If you have two shield buttons you can do this without fear of getting an accidental roll or spotdodge.

This gives Kazuya a way to invul through projectiles and get a frame perfect shield with no gaps. There is counter play of course, but if Kaz CD's through a projectile this is a risk free way to make sure he does not get hit on the tail end and can be done on reaction. Fitting the downback in the CD is not hard and Crouch Dash using C-stick (C-wavu) imo is without a doubt the best way to wavedash except when you want an Electric.

This will be invaluable vs zoners because it is a safer and more consistent way to close space compared to doing a perfect wavdash. It's also much much MUCH easier.

Guys we really should not be talking about MU's with this man yet. It really is pointless.

He is evolving at an incredibly rapid pace.

This alone would change the match vs Gunner as it gives a very safe and reactive way to close space.

Like I said...any MU thoughts anyone may have are purely speculative. It's just too soon.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Results for MSM 223

1. Sparg0
2. Larry Lurr
3. VoiD
4. AC
5. Charliedaking
5. Cyro
7. Nicko
7. YMCA
9. Guts
9. Zenyou
9. Ketchup
9. Lames
13. Razo
13. Monte
13. Pursueyou_Norcal
13. Tyranks

Sparg0 is continuing his dominance from online to offline, including 3-0ing VoiD and 2-0ing Nicko with Cloud and 3-0'ing Larry Lurr after the reset with Pyra/Mythra. Looks like the foundations that he may very well be a top 10 player was accurate.

Also I'm a personal believer in the Falco Agenda, I actually think that character is pretty good.

 

[Rizen]

Results for MSM 223

1. Sparg0
2. Larry Lurr
3. VoiD
4. AC
5. Charliedaking
5. Cyro
7. Nicko
7. YMCA
9. Guts
9. Zenyou
9. Ketchup
9. Lames
13. Razo
13. Monte
13. Pursueyou_Norcal
13. Tyranks

Sparg0 is continuing his dominance from online to offline, including 3-0ing VoiD and 2-0ing Nicko with Cloud and 3-0'ing Larry Lurr after the reset with Pyra/Mythra. Looks like the foundations that he may very well be a top 10 player was accurate.

Also I'm a personal believer in the Falco Agenda, I actually think that character is pretty good.

Sparg0's upped his game but I definitely think Cloud being buffed into top tier and picking up Pythra contributed to his success.

 

[Trunks159]

Sparg0's upped his game but I definitely think Cloud being buffed into top tier and picking up Pythra contributed to his success.

Mmm idk if many will agree that is top tier. Middle of high tier tends to be his usual placement. Obviously his buffs have contributed to his success but I don't really think that takes much away from him considering he's still not using a top tier character.

 

[stixie]

Mmm idk if many will agree that is top tier. Middle of high tier tends to be his usual placement. Obviously his buffs have contributed to his success but I don't really think that takes much away from him considering he's still not using a top tier character.

Has sparg0 actually ever competed offline? Just curious.

Because if he only has online results to go by I don't count any of that.

MKLeo is still the best until someone consistently beats him offline.

 

[TennisBall]

Has sparg0 actually ever competed offline? Just curious.

Because if he only has online results to go by I don't count any of that.

MKLeo is still the best until someone consistently beats him offline.

Tournament little bit above showcases his offline performance.

 

[blackghost]

"kazuya is slow"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEWLIhp3qo4&ab_channel=MetaOfSmash

this video is actually kinda old at this point but beyond the combo game and armor theres a reall menace of movement here that isnt gonna be easy to keep away from you.
even steve kart due to reflect isnt gonna be as helpful as you think.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Cloudy released his new Pyra/Mythra MU chart

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[Trunks159]

Has sparg0 actually ever competed offline? Just curious.

Because if he only has online results to go by I don't count any of that.

MKLeo is still the best until someone consistently beats him offline.

Yeah he played before the pandemic. Not as much success as we've seen with him online or at this MSM, but definitely somewhat prominent.
Obvs Marss, Leo, Tweek, Zackray are all probably better than him as well as many other top 10/20 players but winning his first offline since the online era is impressive. I kind of thought he'd buster out a little once offline came back which still could happen since offline doesn't REALLY start until we get a CEO, Genesis, Smashcon, or Evo level major (or maybe one a tier lower). Turns out both he and Kola just continue their dominance.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Results from a Japanese weekly. Kirihara got 1st with and Ly got 2nd with , in addition it seems as though Shuton is picking up Sephiroth.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Cloudy released his new Pyra/Mythra MU chart

There was a problem fetching the tweet

I would say is a bad and quite possibly worst MU for Pyra Mythra. She outranges them both easily and edgeguards thier explotable recoveries HARD.

Honestly Pyra/Mythra seem to usve been just a tad overhyped. I mean there likely very good and I say Top 10 contenders. But so far it seems like they will not reach the oversaturation and\or dominance Smash 4 Bayo or Clpud like many feared. Heck many pro players seem a but less interrsted now.

Void seems to want to-main Joker and Shiek now.
Shuton is experimenting with Sepiroth too. There is MKLeo and Sparg0 who plan to use them. But they have proven themselves as immensely talented enough players who can succeed with almost anyone they use.

 

[Rizen]

is the new at this point: They're winning stacked tournaments everywhere, or getting 2nd when they don't, by multiple people including MKLeo, Cosmos, Sparg0 and Shuton, have amazing MU charts with only 2 slight losses and 5 even MUs, taking names of top players like Maester, Sparg0, Sonix, etc and people are still putting them down.

 

[DJ3DS]

Don't let ROBs ability to steal matches fool you into thinking his matchups are close to as good as Cloudys impressions of Mythra/Pyra (which also feel optimistic, but he knows better than I do). He easily loses to at least 10 different characters, including particularly bad matchups against G&W and Bayonetta.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

Raito actually soloed !? Interesting. Curious to see if he thinks his recent buffs might have some hidden applications

 

[KirbySquad101]

If we're talking online results only, then they are doing extremely well (though you could say the same for someone like Luigi, and no one seems to think he's anywhere near high tier), but in terms of offline performance, Sparg0 used them for only one set a local, VoiD didn't use them at all, and while Cloudy had a really strong performance at the Mexican Invitational mostly using them, the outcomes of the sets that happened at the invitational already don't quite line-up with the MU chart Cloudy's dishing out. Not being to take a single game off of Maister at all in both of their sets doesn't imply a favored MU against GnW at all, and the "too close for comfort" sets he had with Meme and Necro implies match-ups like Mario and Yoshi being more even if anything.

This ain't to say they'll never be widely successful, but I also think we have to wait until the top players repping them will not only use them, but exhibit consistently strong performances before suggesting they reach ROB/Roy levels of dominance or that they only have 7 even/losing MUs (and maybe also wait for counterplay to develop, but that's a given for any character lol).

Speaking of Sparg0, locals don't tell much, but if the 3-0's he had against top level mains of characters that are supposedly favored against Cloud () are a sign of things to come.... then goddang lol.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

From previous comments and tier lists from Cloudy and his comments. You kind of have to take some of his stuff in jest. I do not think he even takes himself 100% seriously.

Even Sparg0 has been using Cloud more often offline than Pyra/Mythra, maybe he plans to transition more towards the Agies duo as he gets more comfortable in offline play. But usijg mostly Cloud has so far been working more than allright for him.

MKLeo plans to Co-main Joker and Pyra\Mythra. So I. Not sure we will get a 100% example fo him yet.