• The new bonus episode of the Smash Brothers Documentary Metagame, Godslayer, is now available on Vimeo

  • Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

?


  • Total voters
    568

Sucumbio

Smash Enforcer
Moderator
Joined
Oct 7, 2008
Messages
5,867
Location
CP - GOSHAY MS
Okay, this is going to be speculative - by neccessity since this is still very early days for the character and we likely won't know with any degree of accuracy until 2022 rolls around at least. Still:

On a top level I feel that he's going to be dependent on now just getting consistent Electrics but also mixing up the Crouch Dash options consistently and getting as much % as possible out of the openings he manages to get. How many openings he gets per stock is going to be very difficult to say right now, but if he only needs say 3-4 to KO someone on average he'll be extremely dangerous to approach.

Proto in the above linked video called Kazuya a "Muscular Luigi" (31:40) and I can def. see where he's going with that. Doesn't have many tools to play a long range game despite the intangible hitboxes and what not, but when he gets in ooh boy the damage racks up fast. Does have the aformentioned air problems, although his aerials are not shabby at all and can make it difficult to contest him... if he's anywhere close that is. Which does present a problem for Kazuya players where his opponents can choose a less commital option or space away from his aerials.

Of course, prominent zoners (not just :ultminmin and :ultpacman:, but including them) are likely going to cause major issues for Kazuya - while top Kazuyas can and will often get by a lot of stuff with Crouch Dash's and his attacks' intangibility it only takes one or a couple projectiles to send the Kazuya back to neutral (not helped by the reflector kick having a lot of endlag making it rather impractical). Characters and players that are good at juggling will likewise pose a significant obstacle for him because that's one of the safer ways to rack up damage on him.

Still I do think Kazuya has the potential to have a good overall matchup spread - his disjoints and intangible moves make it very difficult to get up close for most of the cast, and maintaining a lead on him is going to be very difficult when most of his tilts do 15 %+ and he has combo starters out of the wazoo. While his normal stats are bad he does have the ability to close in due to the Crouch Dash. CD does also lead to three different attacks - giving it a lot more versatility than just the leadup to EWGF. Dragon Uppercut for example is a stupidly strong finisher even if it's hella commital.

As far as stages go I do think he's going to want stages with wider blastzones - he doesn't have any trouble killing and would like to survive for longer. As far as platforms go his players might think it's better to go for say Kalos than Battlefield, because Kalos' platforms are at the edge and allow some recovery mixups. Which might be a problem during a set since an opponent may choose to ban Kazuya's best stage or at least force one game in a Bo3 to be on a pretty bad stage for him. While this is something every character has to contend with it's particularily important for Kazuya due to the jumpsquat and general movement hindrances.

I do think that he'll also suffer a bit from the volatility problem akin to :ultlucario: : where the current double elimination system means that a truely bad MU or loss hurts a lot. Due to that and how technical he is not a lot of people will main him and he'll likely require secondaries for bad MUs, but Kazuya's coming into an ecosystem where most pros have 2-3 characters they switch around anyway, so I think he'll be fine. A pro like ESAM can decide to go mostly Pika or Min Min, then go Kazuya not only to help cover MUs they struggle a bit more in but also to catch the opponent off guard.

Overall, yeah he's likely to be quite polarizing and unlikely to be the tippy-top of top tier, but he's still a character to look out for.
Many good points. From the few matches I've seen (that aren't dittos) he's relying heavily on basics, grabs and laser. His insane combos up close fizzle when they're not used precisely leaving him vulnerable to all sorts of disadvantage states. In some ways his neutral seems to play as if he's at a constant low grade disadvantage, having to eschew heavy pressure tactics in favor of baiting and punishing.
 

Minordeth

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 14, 2014
Messages
907
Kazuya is a bait and punish character. He has to do the same thing he does in Tekken: play patiently, manufacture oppression with non-committal, grounded movement, and capitalize HARD on openings.

He has to play patiently, because he will get camped. He is going to get camped so hard in this game, and that's fine. The alternative is a stock. He has the highest skill floor in the game with commensurate reward.

Kaz can cancel his invincible-partially invincible crouch dash into shield, or spot-dodge, or whatever - whenever he wants. It just takes practice. I don't know where he will end up on a tier list or whatever, but all I know is that I haven't felt as rewarded for practicing a given character in a long time.
 

blackghost

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 9, 2015
Messages
2,089
I'm kinda shocked at how sure some people are that kazuya is either overrated or bad. I'm equally shocked riddles would commit to saying Kazuya is definitly under terry.
-while i do think he will get camped its not from projectile users rather it will be from people playing a slow smash game with him like a peach or zss just being non-committal. A character like pac man is playing a high risk game trying to camp him. because hydrant just doesnt work vs kazuya.

people arent really considering everything kazuya can do or are ignorant. Statements like
"just throw projectiles at him"
"bowser does everything Kazuya does but better and kills earlier and easier."
"he will struggle to get in"
"the jump squat will be a huge hinderance to him"
"his disadvantage is horrible"
"he has no ways to challenge swords"
Most of these statements are false or mostly false

personally i think people are so used to characters being figured out in a week due to how ultimate works that people are just impatient.

I thought i would be ready by now to write a matchup breakdown for kazuya vs bayo but im not. kazuya tech and bayo tech are in an arms race phase and its gonna take a while.

Extra thought: they did banjo wrong with wonderwing. The move is mine kart with a usage limit AND its worse. Banjo little buffs are cute but without wonderwing being changed from its limit the character is stuck.
 

Cap'n Jack

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 23, 2015
Messages
1,282
I wonder if :ultbanjokazooie: would improve is his Wonderwing total would increase to 10? That’s how much he has in the game proper and would allow him to more freely use the move in more creative ways
 

Sucumbio

Smash Enforcer
Moderator
Joined
Oct 7, 2008
Messages
5,867
Location
CP - GOSHAY MS
I wonder if :ultbanjokazooie: would improve is his Wonderwing total would increase to 10? That’s how much he has in the game proper and would allow him to more freely use the move in more creative ways
I would have voted for it never running out of times you can do it just on a regeneration timer like how epona recharges carrots. But yeah any modifications at this point including changing the number of feathers is food for thought. It's funny but the whole mind game over when the move is coming makes fighting him all the more exciting imo... in tournament I've noticed some players don't even bother hoarding them for higher percentage vollies because that meta portion is so rehearsed.
 
Last edited:

Hydreigonfan01

Smash Champion
Joined
Aug 24, 2018
Messages
2,188
So Charliedaking has been using the Training Modpack to lab true combos, some of which kill at extremely early percents or are even zero-to-death combos.
He also found out that up throw into bair is a true combo.

Remember when people said Wolf couldn't kill.
 
Last edited:

DougEfresh

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 23, 2020
Messages
206
I wonder if :ultbanjokazooie: would improve is his Wonderwing total would increase to 10? That’s how much he has in the game proper and would allow him to more freely use the move in more creative ways
This would most likely end up being a case of being so faithful to a character's game series that it actually hinders their competitive viability: going from 5 uses per stock to 10 does nothing to make the move better when it has 18f start up and 28f of endlag. Not to mention, 10 feathers instead of 5 would compel spamming the move unnecessarily to feel like you've actually used enough of them throughout a stock.

They could make it meaningfully better if it had a few frames faster start up (making it basically unreactable even offline), or significantly reducing its cooldown frames on whiff, but let's be real here. Nintendo will NEVER buff wonderwing of all moves if :ultbanjokazooie: ever gets buffed again while patches still exist for Ult. I still hold firm that improvements to frame data and/or damage output are a good, practical and realistic way to further improve Banjo in a way that makes him feel good without becoming too toxic or broken.

That being said, I've had the chance to play a good bit of Banjo since his buffs, and I definitely feel a decent improvement in my ability to kill with him because the utilt knockback increase did mean something and the bair angle change is especially nice. The latter, while I still need more personal experience to test out fully, should be particularly useful in difficult and/or volatile MUs for Banjo like :ultgreninja::ultfox::ultroy: because they have high gravity and/or fall speed stats that make the bair angle change more devastating for them off-stage when they were already vulnerable there to begin with. It's still nothing major for the duo, but giving him those QoL improvements to his kill power and kit in several MUs he's struggled in is enough to avoid just sweeping under the rug as inconsequential imo.
 

Emblem Lord

The Legendary Lord
Joined
Aug 11, 2005
Messages
9,692
Location
Scotch Plains, NJ
NNID
ShinEmblemLord
3DS FC
3926-6895-0574
Switch FC
SW-0793-4091-6136
Kazuya is a bait and punish character. He has to do the same thing he does in Tekken: play patiently, manufacture oppression with non-committal, grounded movement, and capitalize HARD on openings.

He has to play patiently, because he will get camped. He is going to get camped so hard in this game, and that's fine. The alternative is a stock. He has the highest skill floor in the game with commensurate reward.

Kaz can cancel his invincible-partially invincible crouch dash into shield, or spot-dodge, or whatever - whenever he wants. It just takes practice. I don't know where he will end up on a tier list or whatever, but all I know is that I haven't felt as rewarded for practicing a given character in a long time.
Shhhhhh

Stop bro.

Let people think he sucks please.

I am literally begging you.
 

meleebrawler

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 8, 2014
Messages
8,120
Location
Canada, Quebec
NNID
meleebrawler
3DS FC
2535-3888-1548
I'm kinda shocked at how sure some people are that kazuya is either overrated or bad. I'm equally shocked riddles would commit to saying Kazuya is definitly under terry.
-while i do think he will get camped its not from projectile users rather it will be from people playing a slow smash game with him like a peach or zss just being non-committal. A character like pac man is playing a high risk game trying to camp him. because hydrant just doesnt work vs kazuya.

people arent really considering everything kazuya can do or are ignorant. Statements like
"just throw projectiles at him"
"bowser does everything Kazuya does but better and kills earlier and easier."
"he will struggle to get in"
"the jump squat will be a huge hinderance to him"
"his disadvantage is horrible"
"he has no ways to challenge swords"
Most of these statements are false or mostly false

personally i think people are so used to characters being figured out in a week due to how ultimate works that people are just impatient.

I thought i would be ready by now to write a matchup breakdown for kazuya vs bayo but im not. kazuya tech and bayo tech are in an arms race phase and its gonna take a while.

Extra thought: they did banjo wrong with wonderwing. The move is mine kart with a usage limit AND its worse. Banjo little buffs are cute but without wonderwing being changed from its limit the character is stuck.
Kazuya's disadvantage feels mostly just below average rather than terrible, in that while his options can't fully make up for his slow airspeed, can still be enough to turn the tables in the right situations.

Also comparing Minecart to Wonderwing is not really fair given the different circumstances both moves are in. The latter is available from the get-go, has full attack invulnerability and using it up doesn't affect any other moves. Minecart starts off weaker (though still useful) until gold is mined and theoretically unlimited to resupply, but Steve has to earn the privileges associated with move, and using it carelessly can cripple the rest of his moves.
 

Envoy of Chaos

Smash Ace
Joined
May 9, 2016
Messages
729
Location
Rock Hill, SC
I would further argue Minecart and Wonderwing aren’t comparable based on how they can be used. Steve has minecart to help escape the corner which by his design is a place he puts himself at often. Steve can choose to jump out his minecart turning into into a grab he can combo off of. This makes how you respect the move when moving onto a corner Steve different than how your respect WW when moving towards a cornered Banjo as you can’t default to shield.

Banjo cant use WW as freely as Steve can use Minecart when cornered as shield universally beats it and leaves him wide open should it be blocked (or worse dodged altogether). Banjo using WW in this situation is a risky hard callout. Steve using Minecart in this situation is more routine and something he viable could be doing. As a result Steve can be hit out of Minecart or the cart destroyed entirely since Steve can do more with the move, while WW is less versatile of a move to trade off the invincibility it grants.
 

Nobie

Smash Champion
Joined
Sep 27, 2002
Messages
2,218
NNID
SDShamshel
3DS FC
2809-8958-8223
Wonderwing is basically the Smash version of a Shoryuken, even more than the actual Shoryukens in the game.
 

Sucumbio

Smash Enforcer
Moderator
Joined
Oct 7, 2008
Messages
5,867
Location
CP - GOSHAY MS
Wolf is sick.

BK should not rely on ww but it works great online for some reason but even irl people still get hit lol why didn't I block that just now... It's hilarious to watch it unwind and his little projectile game has turned into snake lite

+(Lucina>b+k 60\40):p
 
Last edited:

Sucumbio

Smash Enforcer
Moderator
Joined
Oct 7, 2008
Messages
5,867
Location
CP - GOSHAY MS

Rizen

Pranked!
Joined
May 7, 2009
Messages
14,597
Location
Colorado
There's a smash clone, Nickelodeon All Star Brawl that was announced. The only reason I'm bringing this up is it's really taken the wind out of Kazuya's sails. He was supposed to be the current talking point but everyone forgot about him. I wouldn't be surprised if less mid level players try him out now.
 

Gearkeeper-8a

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 12, 2018
Messages
185
There's a smash clone, Nickelodeon All Star Brawl that was announced. The only reason I'm bringing this up is it's really taken the wind out of Kazuya's sails. He was supposed to be the current talking point but everyone forgot about him. I wouldn't be surprised if less mid level players try him out now.
But kazuya got released way before the announcement of that game, not only that most new characters has a phase were they mostly get forgotten until they place high in a big tournament.

If a kazuya player comes and takes 8-16 in the next big tournament the "broken" talk will return

It happe
 

NotLiquid

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 14, 2014
Messages
1,236
There's a smash clone, Nickelodeon All Star Brawl that was announced. The only reason I'm bringing this up is it's really taken the wind out of Kazuya's sails. He was supposed to be the current talking point but everyone forgot about him. I wouldn't be surprised if less mid level players try him out now.
I think you're looking for a correlation that doesn't exist for a character that's three weeks old at this point, which is pretty much old news by online standards - especially in a quarantine laden environment where results are slower on the uptick. None of these things have anything to do with one another, people have labbed the results and seen the math, now people are biding their time for when to put those results into practice.
 

Cutie Gwen

Lovely warrior
Joined
Jul 1, 2014
Messages
60,092
Location
Somewhere out there on this big blue marble
There's a smash clone, Nickelodeon All Star Brawl that was announced. The only reason I'm bringing this up is it's really taken the wind out of Kazuya's sails. He was supposed to be the current talking point but everyone forgot about him. I wouldn't be surprised if less mid level players try him out now.
Outside of memes on twitter, I haven't seen any major focus on it, no big gameplay analysis by pros or whatever on viability or competitive nature, so outside of low level players who's input don't even scrape the meta, people are still focusing on Kazuya
 

Sucumbio

Smash Enforcer
Moderator
Joined
Oct 7, 2008
Messages
5,867
Location
CP - GOSHAY MS
I think you're looking for a correlation that doesn't exist for a character that's three weeks old at this point, which is pretty much old news by online standards - especially in a quarantine laden environment where results are slower on the uptick. None of these things have anything to do with one another, people have labbed the results and seen the math, now people are biding their time for when to put those results into practice.
Agree but to add I also feel a patch on the horizon to iron out some of the kinks and odd behavior his character currently demonstrates.
 

Rizen

Pranked!
Joined
May 7, 2009
Messages
14,597
Location
Colorado
I think you're looking for a correlation that doesn't exist for a character that's three weeks old at this point, which is pretty much old news by online standards - especially in a quarantine laden environment where results are slower on the uptick. None of these things have anything to do with one another, people have labbed the results and seen the math, now people are biding their time for when to put those results into practice.
I find it completely unrealistic to say the announcement of a rival fighting game based on smash has no effect on smash or the DLC character just announced whatsoever. But there's no real way to prove it one way or another.
Sparg0 did his Pyra/Mythra and :ultcloud: Matchup Charts.
He’s very positive on both characters though not as positive as Cloudy for Pythra.
Speaking of Pythra, LMan got 2nd with them at Juice Box 43 with them.

I want to talk about this MU chart and my tournament corps. I predicted Pythra would be :ultyounglink: 's worst MU. YL generally struggles with big fast disjoints and they're the best of them. But I also second :ultwolf: for these MUs and you can see why. His great airspeed and transcendent blaster lets him get around disjoints and control midrange really well. Wolf's a very good answer to YL's bad MUs and IMO YL does good against quick critters like the rats and Diddy Kong in return. I'm dropping :ultlink: for :ultpyra::ultmythra:. Sometimes you want a sword to zone characters like the Marios and Pythra just outclasses Link. They gave Link a big sword but also made him really slow with moves like f8 jab and f16 Fair. He really needs buffs but they refuse to give him any and to people who disagree, what tournaments is he winning?
I'm excited to start attending tournaments again this month! :awesome:
 
Last edited:

KirbySquad101

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 7, 2015
Messages
888
I remember HIKARU had :ultcloud: as a winning MU for:ultdk:on his last DK MU chart, so it is entirely possible that the big monkey could very well give Cloud a hard time lol.

Then again, Sparg0 never seems to have much trouble dealing with LeSou (best DK in Mexico), so I'm not really sure how much of it is accurate.
 

Frihetsanka

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 26, 2016
Messages
1,926
Location
Sweden
There's a smash clone, Nickelodeon All Star Brawl that was announced. The only reason I'm bringing this up is it's really taken the wind out of Kazuya's sails. He was supposed to be the current talking point but everyone forgot about him. I wouldn't be surprised if less mid level players try him out now.
I think most players had already lost interest in Kazuya. I don't think he's going to be a fairly niche player, really appealing to some players but most will likely gloss over him. Auto-turnaround alone probably scares many people away. Especially since he doesn't seem to be super-OP or anything (current community impression seems to be around lower end of high tier or upper end of mid tier, from what I've seen).
 

Hydreigonfan01

Smash Champion
Joined
Aug 24, 2018
Messages
2,188
I'm dropping :ultlink: for :ultpyra::ultmythra:. Sometimes you want a sword to zone characters like the Marios and Pythra just outclasses Link. They gave Link a big sword but also made him really slow with moves like f8 jab and f16 Fair. He really needs buffs but they refuse to give him any and to people who disagree, what tournaments is he winning?
I'm excited to start attending tournaments again this month! :awesome:
Well, Link was doing extremely well back when T was playing, but atm T's working and not competing.
 

Nobie

Smash Champion
Joined
Sep 27, 2002
Messages
2,218
NNID
SDShamshel
3DS FC
2809-8958-8223

Protobanham just released a video talking about 3 of what he considers the Top 7 characters in Ultimate. Two are not that surprising: Shulk and Mythra (+Pyra).

The third, however, is Sheik. I don't even think Sheik players think their character is Top 7!

He places Sheik highly because of the following strengths.

-Fantastic movement in neutral
-Long reach
-Great horizontal air mobility
-Ability to score KOs
-Offstage recovery and landing
 

Hydreigonfan01

Smash Champion
Joined
Aug 24, 2018
Messages
2,188

Protobanham just released a video talking about 3 of what he considers the Top 7 characters in Ultimate. Two are not that surprising: Shulk and Mythra (+Pyra).

The third, however, is Sheik. I don't even think Sheik players think their character is Top 7!

He places Sheik highly because of the following strengths.

-Fantastic movement in neutral
-Long reach
-Great horizontal air mobility
-Ability to score KOs
-Offstage recovery and landing
I don't think Sheik is top 7, but I do think highly of her. I also agree that she doesn't lack kill power and that her kill setups are fine. You just have to put in more work with her then some other characters, as she's difficult to play. I think her biggest weakness is losing trades.

Edit: So this is his whole list, and I'm even more confused.

 
Last edited:

Sucumbio

Smash Enforcer
Moderator
Joined
Oct 7, 2008
Messages
5,867
Location
CP - GOSHAY MS
I'm guessing he's not wishing to commit to other characters' placements for now which is safe I suppose. I also notice tier lists from top players tend to be very personal impressions that differ greatly on specific characters but generally agree on others. In the later regard there's almost world wide agreement that shulk is good for instance as he always gets thrown in top.
 

Nobie

Smash Champion
Joined
Sep 27, 2002
Messages
2,218
NNID
SDShamshel
3DS FC
2809-8958-8223
I don't think Sheik is top 7, but I do think highly of her. I also agree that she doesn't lack kill power and that her kill setups are fine. You just have to put in more work with her then some other characters, as she's difficult to play. I think her biggest weakness is losing trades.

Edit: So this is his whole list, and I'm even more confused.

He was trying to figure out where exactly he'd rank Lucina, and surprised himself how low he ended up placing her.

The fact that Pikachu and Joker aren't even on the list yet feels like Protobanham lives in another dimension.
 

blackghost

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 9, 2015
Messages
2,089
People really think that nick game I gonna affect smash interest? That's funny.

Kazuya interest from Gen population of smash players will go down as he is not crazy op and more importantly he's hard and most people want their characters to be easy. The smash community and the fact community are not built of the same stuff.

If sepiroth doesn't get more good players besides Ned he's in danger of stagnation.
 

Wigglerman

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 6, 2019
Messages
703
Location
Maine
People really think that nick game I gonna affect smash interest? That's funny.

Kazuya interest from Gen population of smash players will go down as he is not crazy op and more importantly he's hard and most people want their characters to be easy. The smash community and the fact community are not built of the same stuff.

If sepiroth doesn't get more good players besides Ned he's in danger of stagnation.
I don't think it's 'funny'. I think it's a very real possibility. If the gameplay is as deep/rich as people are expecting from the Slap City devs then it could really sate the hunger some players of Ultimate have for a more technical game. I would say it's a little 'egotistical' to think Smash Ultimate is incapable of losing players to what could end up being the better game. I love Ultimate but it isn't without its problems and the ones it has have been grinding on me a lot as of late (The air focused game play, specifically has gotten rather tedious with everyone just jumping and throwing out their safest options over and over for the majority of a match just as an example).


I can't imagine the Nick smash game wouldn't draw in competitive minded folks when the game, much like how Smash started, appeals to a MASSIVE audience but is FAR more complex under the hood than it's kid friendly and/or simplistic appearance lets on (Since the Devs are clearly integrating deeper mechanics to satisfy the technical players/anyone who gives the game a more critical eye/lab monsters). I can legit see a time line where that game sees serious play, even if only for a year. That year, though, would dictate it's potential staying power as a competitive game. Will it be 'a meme' or the unexpected masterpiece people never knew they wanted/needed?

Smash isn't too big to fall. Especially now that Ultimate is nearing the end of it's dev support and interest could very well, naturally, wane.
 
Last edited:

NotLiquid

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 14, 2014
Messages
1,236
Let's speedrun what's gonna happen.

People will buy Nick Bros. Brawl and play it. It will probably be good, and people will probably like it, provided it plays similarly to Slap City (though the developers have already said it's going to be fairly different).
Notable players from Melee and Ultimate will likely give it a shot for a bit.
After a while, those players will go back to playing their own games. Nick Bros. Brawl will get its own dedicated player base, likely with some mild overlap. Whether big or small, who knows. Bigger than Smash? Probably not, players play Smash not just because of reverence for the game itself but because the presentation and the crossover appeal is still unmatched and one-of-a-kind - many of the same reasons people still hold the Marvel games in high regard. The other week we had an actual top player talk about how they're dropping their old character for a new one, for no other reason than "I love anime".
Nick Bros. Brawl will never be a replacement any more than Mortal Kombat is a replacement to Street Fighter. It will be a title that coexists, because it will be different, and the subjectivity of that doesn't equate to better, even if it's positioned better than any other Smashlike up to this point.
The shelf life of games don't live and die purely on post-launch content unless by admission the game carries no redeeming qualities outside of its PR. Ultimate will be played in some capacity until the next Smash game comes along, and even then who knows; this series has fractured its base between games before.

And to reiterate, no, the announcement of the game has nothing to do with the perceived "non-talking" about a three week old character (technically over a whole month if you count the announcement!) who was labbed, had his broad strokes figured out by the end of his first week, is explosive-yet-tough to play, appeals to a niche, and is currently waiting for players to take him to task in competitive events. This is like saying that Slippi took the wind out of Min Min's sails. The thing that's easy to forget in all of this is how despite us having lived in the present of the last two years of Ultimate content, the bigger news is how we're ostensibly returning to a meta game that's completely different from what we've had to bear witness to over this last period. Holistically, there's a lot of game to unpack, a lot of new scenarios to observe, and a lot of new names to witness. Can you believe Steve was almost a year ago and that Sparg0 has become a genuine top competitive threat? It doesn't feel like it; especially when all we've had to go by until recently is online. The content may be coming to an end soon, but to see the pieces come together is still a road yet untraveled.

Anyway, Kazuya.
 
Last edited:

meleebrawler

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 8, 2014
Messages
8,120
Location
Canada, Quebec
NNID
meleebrawler
3DS FC
2535-3888-1548
Let's speedrun what's gonna happen.

People will buy Nick Bros. Brawl and play it. It will probably be good, and people will probably like it, provided it plays similarly to Slap City (though the developers have already said it's going to be fairly different).
Notable players from Melee and Ultimate will likely give it a shot for a bit.
After a while, those players will go back to playing their own games. Nick Bros. Brawl will get its own dedicated player base, likely with some mild overlap. Whether big or small, who knows. Bigger than Smash? Probably not, players play Smash not just because of reverence for the game itself but because the presentation and the crossover appeal is still unmatched and one-of-a-kind - many of the same reasons people still hold the Marvel games in high regard. The other week we had an actual top player talk about how they're dropping their old character for a new one, for no other reason than "I love anime".
Nick Bros. Brawl will never be a replacement any more than Mortal Kombat is a replacement to Street Fighter. It will be a title that coexists, because it will be different, and the subjectivity of that doesn't equate to better, even if it's positioned better than any other Smashlike up to this point.
The shelf life of games don't live and die purely on post-launch content unless by admission the game carries no redeeming qualities outside of its PR. Ultimate will be played in some capacity until the next Smash game comes along, and even then who knows; this series has fractured its base between games before.

And to reiterate, no, the announcement of the game has nothing to do with the perceived "non-talking" about a three week old character (technically over a whole month if you count the announcement!) who was labbed, had his broad strokes figured out by the end of his first week, is explosive-yet-tough to play, appeals to a niche, and is currently waiting for players to take him to task in competitive events. This is like saying that Slippi took the wind out of Min Min's sails. The thing that's easy to forget in all of this is how despite us having lived in the present of the last two years of Ultimate content, the bigger news is how we're ostensibly returning to a meta game that's completely different from what we've had to bear witness to over this last period. Holistically, there's a lot of game to unpack, a lot of new scenarios to observe, and a lot of new names to witness. Can you believe Steve was almost a year ago and that Sparg0 has become a genuine top competitive threat? It doesn't feel like it; especially when all we've had to go by until recently is online. The content may be coming to an end soon, but to see the pieces come together is still a road yet untraveled.

Anyway, Kazuya.
Yeah, but you know... rollback. We have to make any game with that sound better than it probably is, because that will totally make major developers use that more in their games, because it's clearly just a matter of being lazy and not because trying to implement it in long-running series with meticulously iterated code could break everything.

Rollback and wavedashing are nothing more than marketing buzzwords at this time. Just because a game has them doesn't mean they'll necessarily be used well.
 
Last edited:

blackghost

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 9, 2015
Messages
2,089
I don't think it's 'funny'. I think it's a very real possibility. If the gameplay is as deep/rich as people are expecting from the Slap City devs then it could really sate the hunger some players of Ultimate have for a more technical game. I would say it's a little 'egotistical' to think Smash Ultimate is incapable of losing players to what could end up being the better game. I love Ultimate but it isn't without its problems and the ones it has have been grinding on me a lot as of late (The air focused game play, specifically has gotten rather tedious with everyone just jumping and throwing out their safest options over and over for the majority of a match just as an example).


I can't imagine the Nick smash game wouldn't draw in competitive minded folks when the game, much like how Smash started, appeals to a MASSIVE audience but is FAR more complex under the hood than it's kid friendly and/or simplistic appearance lets on (Since the Devs are clearly integrating deeper mechanics to satisfy the technical players/anyone who gives the game a more critical eye/lab monsters). I can legit see a time line where that game sees serious play, even if only for a year. That year, though, would dictate it's potential staying power as a competitive game. Will it be 'a meme' or the unexpected masterpiece people never knew they wanted/needed?

Smash isn't too big to fall. Especially now that Ultimate is nearing the end of it's dev support and interest could very well, naturally, wane.
anything CAN see compeititve play for example shrek super slam, naruto storm, and mario kart all have compeititve scenes. but there are levels to this. additionally, i find it funny that people are praising "technical additions" like wavedashing to the game and sat here and ignored the fact that the newest smash caracter had that and people were upset that it took practice to apply. I see this game as nostalgia bait and i doubt it will ven be solid. We've done this song and dance before (rivals of aether will kill smash, pm will kill it, and on and on).
any game can fall (lol Halo) but thats only if something happens behind the scenes ussually.

Ok back to the topic at hand sheik seems to have won a lot of people over at the highest level, do we know why that is? also when i see a pro of shiek being "reach" i get a little confused because over the course of dlc what is good reach has drastically changed.
 

Emblem Lord

The Legendary Lord
Joined
Aug 11, 2005
Messages
9,692
Location
Scotch Plains, NJ
NNID
ShinEmblemLord
3DS FC
3926-6895-0574
Switch FC
SW-0793-4091-6136
I don't think it's 'funny'. I think it's a very real possibility. If the gameplay is as deep/rich as people are expecting from the Slap City devs then it could really sate the hunger some players of Ultimate have for a more technical game. I would say it's a little 'egotistical' to think Smash Ultimate is incapable of losing players to what could end up being the better game. I love Ultimate but it isn't without its problems and the ones it has have been grinding on me a lot as of late (The air focused game play, specifically has gotten rather tedious with everyone just jumping and throwing out their safest options over and over for the majority of a match just as an example).


I can't imagine the Nick smash game wouldn't draw in competitive minded folks when the game, much like how Smash started, appeals to a MASSIVE audience but is FAR more complex under the hood than it's kid friendly and/or simplistic appearance lets on (Since the Devs are clearly integrating deeper mechanics to satisfy the technical players/anyone who gives the game a more critical eye/lab monsters). I can legit see a time line where that game sees serious play, even if only for a year. That year, though, would dictate it's potential staying power as a competitive game. Will it be 'a meme' or the unexpected masterpiece people never knew they wanted/needed?

Smash isn't too big to fall. Especially now that Ultimate is nearing the end of it's dev support and interest could very well, naturally, wane.
Brawl didn't kill competitive smash.

Think about that.
 
Top Bottom