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Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

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  • Total voters
    568

Ziodyne 21

Smash Lord
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Apr 11, 2016
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1,599
So Kazuya can be officially classified as a superheavyweight? I mean Plant is considered one right and he is heaver than she is
 
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Wigglerman

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Aug 6, 2019
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In my own (mediocre) Kazura experience, I've noticed that Kazuya has a real hard time getting out of juggles. Down Air is an option, but I feel like once you're up, you're not coming down any time soon.
Like a lot of heavies, this will be the struggle. I found it very difficult to land against my buddies Joker. His Up Air just ate me alive so I had to do what I could to get around or bait it out and find a gap to Demon Scissors or just air dodge away. He'd also managed a lot of grab mix ups or just outright could punish my landings sometimes too. It'll be rough once Kazuya is in a bad spot but he's still not out of the running. He's a character you can't get complacent around or he'll just delete you anyway.
 

Nobie

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I haven't had the chance to play other people online or offline since Kazuya came out, but I'm predicting Incineroar to be and absurdly volatile matchup. I think it's maybe slightly in Kazuya's favor because his kit is so versatile and both want to fight up close, but Incineroar is barely bothered by tough body and heavy armor, and even ONE successful Revenge from Incineroar seems like it can turn the situation right around. Even more than against Ganon, it's like any stray hit you absorb from Kazuya means Alolan Whip is liable to do 60% or 70% damage.
 

Wigglerman

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I haven't had the chance to play other people online or offline since Kazuya came out, but I'm predicting Incineroar to be and absurdly volatile matchup. I think it's maybe slightly in Kazuya's favor because his kit is so versatile and both want to fight up close, but Incineroar is barely bothered by tough body and heavy armor, and even ONE successful Revenge from Incineroar seems like it can turn the situation right around. Even more than against Ganon, it's like any stray hit you absorb from Kazuya means Alolan Whip is liable to do 60% or 70% damage.
It's going to be battle of the reads and grabs. Any Revenge happy Incin is going to start getting GOH'd or skull bashed into combos into otherworld. It's going to be a rough but very rare match up on either side.
 

Rizen

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Kazuya can armor through everything! I feel like his gameplan will come down to predicting attacks and countering with armor. The armor helps make up for the poor frame data but good grab games might give him trouble.
Edit obviously when I say everything it's a hyperbole; I can't believe I have to explain this.
 
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Minordeth

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 14, 2014
Messages
907
Kazuya feels like Kazuya. It's a marvelous feeling.

Sakurai is an FGC nerd, and it never ceases to make me smile. There are little details in Kazuya's moveset that add in little bits of general Tekken flavor. The 10-hit-combo is probably my favorite.

The 10-Hit-Combo
The 10-Hit-Combo has been around in the Tekken series forever. They can be found in the move-list and always look like this impressive collection of inputs that intimidate and inspire new players to attempt. Naturally, they are usually unchanged from game to game for existing characters.

In the Tekken meta, 10-Hit-Combos are notorious for being generally useless in high level play as they are usually more like 10-Hit-Strings made up of high-low mixups. While they absolutely do a lot of damage, they are strings - they can be interrupted, countered, and blocked. Functionally, as the level of play increases, the level of risk vs reward gets skewed towards the former. As they get carried over from game to game, they are also easily recognize by long-time players.

Okay, but what if I'm you're not playing in top 8 at a monthly? What happens if you are playing through pools, or just against some randos at an arcade online? The 10-Hit-Combo can serve as a skillcheck (or a flex, if you are that person).

---
Whenever new players get into Tekken, they notice the 10-Hit-Combo on the move set list, and naturally ask if they should learn it. The most common answer, including the one I received about 20 years ago, is that while the 10-Hit-Combo is not particularly useful to actually use, it is useful to know.

So, of course, Sakurai makes rapid jab input perform the 10-Hit-Combo. And it is very obviously designed to be used (or not used) in the same way. It even comes with a 5.0x SDI multiplier, which accurately emulates Tekken's juggle scenarios.

Watching players get needlessly hit by the entirety of Kazuya Mishima's 10-Hit-Combo in 2021 makes me suspect that Sakurai is cheekily forcing Smash players to live through the life cycle of a new Tekken player.

TL;DR -

Don't let it be you. - Marss




His ground movement feels on point, and makes me wish there was a way to use a PlayStation pad just for him. Or at least use the Procon pad for movement.

Side note: it’s going to be hilarious watching people get rushed down by this “slow” character
 

Thinkaman

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Kazuya can armor through everything! I feel like his gameplan will come down to predicting attacks and countering with armor. The armor helps make up for the poor frame data but good grab games might give him trouble.
Not quite! U-smash and d-smash armor is just 6%, which means they are just good for sneaking past jabs and multi-hits.

F-smash and (far more importantly) Heaven's Gate is 10%, which means it can further ignore most non-heavyweight tilts and most non-heavyweight nairs + fairs. That's a much bigger deal and can be devestating on a matchup-by-matchup basis, but the hard hitters (and grabbers) don't care.

Characters ranging from Ganondorf to Megawatt are unaffected by the armor entirely.
 

Plain Yogurt

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Kazuya feels like Kazuya. It's a marvelous feeling.

Sakurai is an FGC nerd, and it never ceases to make me smile. There are little details in Kazuya's moveset that add in little bits of general Tekken flavor. The 10-hit-combo is probably my favorite.

The 10-Hit-Combo
The 10-Hit-Combo has been around in the Tekken series forever. They can be found in the move-list and always look like this impressive collection of inputs that intimidate and inspire new players to attempt. Naturally, they are usually unchanged from game to game for existing characters.

In the Tekken meta, 10-Hit-Combos are notorious for being generally useless in high level play as they are usually more like 10-Hit-Strings made up of high-low mixups. While they absolutely do a lot of damage, they are strings - they can be interrupted, countered, and blocked. Functionally, as the level of play increases, the level of risk vs reward gets skewed towards the former. As they get carried over from game to game, they are also easily recognize by long-time players.

Okay, but what if I'm you're not playing in top 8 at a monthly? What happens if you are playing through pools, or just against some randos at an arcade online? The 10-Hit-Combo can serve as a skillcheck (or a flex, if you are that person).

---
Whenever new players get into Tekken, they notice the 10-Hit-Combo on the move set list, and naturally ask if they should learn it. The most common answer, including the one I received about 20 years ago, is that while the 10-Hit-Combo is not particularly useful to actually use, it is useful to know.

So, of course, Sakurai makes rapid jab input perform the 10-Hit-Combo. And it is very obviously designed to be used (or not used) in the same way. It even comes with a 5.0x SDI multiplier, which accurately emulates Tekken's juggle scenarios.

Watching players get needlessly hit by the entirety of Kazuya Mishima's 10-Hit-Combo in 2021 makes me suspect that Sakurai is cheekily forcing Smash players to live through the life cycle of a new Tekken player.

TL;DR -

Don't let it be you. - Marss




His ground movement feels on point, and makes me wish there was a way to use a PlayStation pad just for him. Or at least use the Procon pad for movement.

Side note: it’s going to be hilarious watching people get rushed down by this “slow” character
I think my favorite part of this is my experience in the ditto match. The other Kazuya SEES that I’m getting out of his string, but then takes the whole thing like a champ when I do it to him. Just…hold back man!

the character is a whole learning experience in himself. It feels SUPER cool to remember he has a certain move and try to fit it more into your gameplan like a puzzle. Someone make a platform fighter where everyone controls like this guy.
 

Minordeth

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Messages
907
Not quite! U-smash and d-smash armor is just 6%, which means they are just good for sneaking past jabs and multi-hits.

F-smash and (far more importantly) Heaven's Gate is 10%, which means it can further ignore most non-heavyweight tilts and most non-heavyweight nairs + fairs. That's a much bigger deal and can be devestating on a matchup-by-matchup basis, but the hard hitters (and grabbers) don't care.

Characters ranging from Ganondorf to Megawatt are unaffected by the armor entirely.
Yeah, the hyper over the heavy armor will die down when people notice that it's far more situational than integral. Of course, some multi-hits are those Notorious Nairs (Palu, Pika) and being able to anti-air them with the faster U-smash will likely be quite useful - if only to instill fear.

Kazuya's movement mix-ups, however, are going to be in play in every match-up. The hefty serving of invincibility at the beginning of the crouch dash is pretty wild. Slipping past say, Wolf's Laser and having the ability to punish (or cancel that momentum to react to the Wolf's next option) is wild.
 

Alicorn

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Kazuya can armor through everything! I feel like his gameplan will come down to predicting attacks and countering with armor. The armor helps make up for the poor frame data but good grab games might give him trouble.
I saw his armor power through Hero's Magic Burst, turning Hero's best spell into his worst.
 

SKX31

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I saw his armor power through Hero's Magic Burst, turning Hero's best spell into his worst.
That is still very unreliable since the Kazuya has to time the F-Smash just as the Magic Burst hits - if the Burst connects before Kazuya gets to move / attack the armor will not help him. I had this happen twice yesterday when my Kazuya could armor through Magic Burst at 100 % (and I saved the replay*) - but Kazuya has already to be in motion. Then again, Hero players like Akikikusu do not really rely on Magic Burst to begin with due to its all or nothing nature.

It's a very difficult MU to call (not least since we won't know how good Kazuya is until months from now): a Kazuya that crouch dashes a lot will likely be able to gap-close quickly, but his frame data doesn't outshine Hero's (AFAIK). Zapple (edited, forgot the name at first) will outrange Kazuya and wall him out - giving Hero time to get the buffs - but one wrong move from the Hero and Kazuya's punish game gets going. Likewise, one wrong move from Kazuya likely means he takes a lot of damage or has to restart neutral.

Sidenote: I noticed in Nairo's ditto set vs. Riddles that Nairo and Riddles not only used the 10 hit to hope for buffered air dodge jank, but also canceled the 10 string early to cause the opponent to do a buffered spot dodge which they hoped to punish. (Which Nairo succeeded at with a grab). While the 10 hit is overall not really useful at high levels I kinda get the impression that that will be its main application.

*(I don't have a microSD card so I couldn't convert to video, but the replay's posted to Shared Content, ID is PC99Q12X. Not the cleanest Kazuya play, far from it.)
 
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Cutie Gwen

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Zap will outrange Kazuya and wall him out
Honestly I'm a bit unsure on this, Kazuya already wants to crouch dash to close the gap but the upper body invincibility makes me wonder how well this can work in practise, whiffing the Zapple would mean Kazuya gets a whole lot closer. I think Kazuya plauers with more matchup experience can bypass it
 

Nobie

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The interaction between Mewtwo Shadow Ball and Kazuya Crouch Dash/Reflect is worth researching.

Kazuya can crouch dash through uncharged Shadow Balls, but a fully charged SB is too large, travels too slowly, and wiggles too much for the upper body invincibility to work against it.

But as Thinkaman Thinkaman mentioned, Kazuya's reflect is a 2.6x modifier, meaning Mewtwo cannot reflect a fully charged one back.

However, this might mean that there's a Shadow Ball sweetspot, where it's big enough to beat Crouch Dash but small enough to win the Reflector tennis war. That, of course, will also potentially change based on staleness. Also, smaller SBs are significantly less potent for KOs, meaning playing the safe route might reduce the chances of Mewtwo taking a stock on a grounded Kazuya.
 

B_Burg

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Kagaribi 4 Results (extended up to Top 64 and notable players out prior):
25. shky :ultzss:
25. YOC :ultcloud::ultsheik:
25. Yamanaction :ultluigi:
25. DoubleA :ultshulk:
25. Nanchan :ultzss:
25. Repo :ultmegaman:
25. Rinkuru :ultminmin:ultlucas:
25. JILL :ultfox:
33. Across :ultgnw:
33. Abadango :ultpikachu::ultpalutena:
33. Re:'SHUNP :ulthero:
33. Paru :ultsteve:
33. Paseriman :ultfox:
33. Manzoku :ulttoonlink:
33. Lickey :ultmetaknight:
33. Takei :ultsonic:
33. Rotsuko :ultyoshi:
33. Ryu :ultdiddy:
33. chicken :ultwolf::ultdiddy:
33. Lax :ultchrom::ultroy:
33. Nietono:ultpichu:
33. Dark Samus-sama :ultdarksamus:
33. Lv. 1:ulttoonlink:
33. Jagaimo :ultpalutena::ultpyra:
49. Kuro :ultzss:
49. Choco :ultzss:
49. Tet :ultpit:
49. takoman :ultcloud:
49. Kameme :ultmegaman:
49. Renya :ultpikachu:
49. Rain :ultjoker:
49. Rattsu :ultgreninja:
49. Hikari :ultsheik::ultwolf:
49. FILIP :ultfalco:
49. TKM :ultpeach:
49. KaPMK :ultmetaknight:
49. murasat :ulticeclimbers:
49. Two-Kiwama Ah! :ulticeclimbers:
49. SaSamisu :ultpalutena:
49. Shirayuki :ultinkling:
65. Umeki :ultdaisy:
97. HIKARU:ultpokemontrainerf::ultdk:
97. Yuzu :ultrosalina:

There's... honestly a lot to unpack here lol. Too much in fact, and it's gonna take a looooootttt of time to cover EVERYTHING noteworthy in this tourney, cause yeeeeesssshhhhhh.
The OrionRank Japan Top 150 came in.
I was actually wondering a bit about this. Is it just accepted that Repo is the best :ultmegaman: now? Or is it too early to call that? Obviously Kameme is still good, but more recently Repo seems to be placing higher, as well as Kameme seemingly experimenting a bit more with DLC and just more other characters in general.

Either way I'm excited to see Repo keep going. His play style is so aggressive yet works so well. Really makes me appreciate the design of :ultmegaman: and I'm curious to see where things go from here.
 

FJA147

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jul 13, 2020
Messages
50
My thoughts on Kazuya is that he is a solid character that can do a lot but I think it will be integral for kazuya to know how to the crouch dash or wave dash because from playing the character a good amount. If you force Kazuya to come to you or you camp him out he will struggle greatly. So that is the reason you need to learn how to the input for wave dash because without it Kazuya will struggle greatly with character who camp him out.
 

Diddy Kong

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The interaction between Mewtwo Shadow Ball and Kazuya Crouch Dash/Reflect is worth researching.

Kazuya can crouch dash through uncharged Shadow Balls, but a fully charged SB is too large, travels too slowly, and wiggles too much for the upper body invincibility to work against it.

But as Thinkaman Thinkaman mentioned, Kazuya's reflect is a 2.6x modifier, meaning Mewtwo cannot reflect a fully charged one back.

However, this might mean that there's a Shadow Ball sweetspot, where it's big enough to beat Crouch Dash but small enough to win the Reflector tennis war. That, of course, will also potentially change based on staleness. Also, smaller SBs are significantly less potent for KOs, meaning playing the safe route might reduce the chances of Mewtwo taking a stock on a grounded Kazuya.
So we can take Kazuya is yet another terrible matchup for Mewtwo?
 

The_Bookworm

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 10, 2018
Messages
2,858
The interaction between Mewtwo Shadow Ball and Kazuya Crouch Dash/Reflect is worth researching.

Kazuya can crouch dash through uncharged Shadow Balls, but a fully charged SB is too large, travels too slowly, and wiggles too much for the upper body invincibility to work against it.

But as Thinkaman Thinkaman mentioned, Kazuya's reflect is a 2.6x modifier, meaning Mewtwo cannot reflect a fully charged one back.

However, this might mean that there's a Shadow Ball sweetspot, where it's big enough to beat Crouch Dash but small enough to win the Reflector tennis war. That, of course, will also potentially change based on staleness. Also, smaller SBs are significantly less potent for KOs, meaning playing the safe route might reduce the chances of Mewtwo taking a stock on a grounded Kazuya.
I think the trade goes in Mewtwo's favor. As mentioned earlier, Kazuya's reflect is generally fairly gimmicky to pull off due how it is inputted, harder to land than Min Min up smash reflect imo. It pretty much requires to make a hard read on when the opponent throws out the projectile.

That being said when he does, Mewtwo is going to eat a lot back.
 

Ziodyne 21

Smash Lord
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Apr 11, 2016
Messages
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Although it's hard to say for determine :ultkazuya:viability and it will likely take months before dedicated users fully learn and optimize him due to just how different and unique he his. But for now I think :ultminmin :ultsonic::ultzss::ultshulk:may be likely struggles from. Min Min can play outside Kazuya's reach a and deny everything he wants to do

.Sonic and ZSS can circle camp him all day like they can with most other slow and relatively short ranged fighters.

Shulk also can play outside Kazuyas reach and use Monado switching to possibly cheat his way out of many of Kazuyas combos and setups. Monado Arts will be a pain for Kaz to deal with anyway. Want to circle around him?.Use Speed Art. Want to negate his tough guy and armour? Use Buster. Want to cheat disadvantage vs him and disrupt combos? Use Sheild Art
 
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Hydreigonfan01

Smash Champion
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Messages
2,188
Although it's hard to say for determine :ultkazuya:viability and it will likely take months before dedicated users fully learn and optimize him due to just how different and unique he his. But for now I think :ultminmin :ultsonic::ultzss::ultshulk:may be likely struggles from. Min Min can play outside Kazuya's reach a and deny everything he wants to do

.Sonic and ZSS can circle camp him all day like they can with most other slow and relatively short ranged fighters.

Shulk also can play outside Kazuyas reach and use Monado switching to possibly cheat his way out of many of Kazuyas combos and setups. Monado Arts will be a pain for Kaz to deal with anyway. Want to circle around him?.Use Speed Art. Want to negate his tough guy and armour? Use Buster. Want to cheat disadvantage vs him and disrupt combos? Use Sheild Art
:ultmythra: can also circle camp Kazuya all day just like ZSS and Sonic, in addition, Mythra is great at juggling people when they're in disadvantage due to her disjointed up air that autocancels three frames after the hitboxes end, can autocancel from a short hop fastfall and can combo and kill due to its high base knockback. Kazuya does not like being put in a juggle situation at all and it's difficult for him to escape disadvantage compared to the Shotos and Terry even with his stall and fall.
 

blackghost

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unlike other characters that sometimes get circle camped, the difference is your margin of error vs kazuya vs say mac or ganon is much, much smaller. and if he gets you, you are taking 70 if not more or even death.

rleiably circle camping kazuya is not a good approach imo especially when he has those dash cancels.

other issue with circle camping is a competent stage banner should take this into a count and not let you go to pokemon stadium or Bf more than once a set.
 

Wigglerman

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Bowser is going to be a horrid match up from my experience last night. Bowser doesn't care about Kazuya's armor and can just scoop you way faster with his slam than Kazuya can. Kazuya struggles HARD to get back on stage against Bowser too. Bowser can just spit fire to tack on a lot of % and then just sit and wait for you to hit anything then do his spinning fortress to tack on more damage. I was also getting scooped even with well spaced back tilts against shields. It's insane I was getting grabbed but alas I was.

Bowsers mobility is also oppressive. He's way faster in every regard and can just dance in and out to bait a you then chew you up with grab combos that Kazuya just cannot escape at all.
 

Ziodyne 21

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I wonder is Kazuya will struggle with certain fellow Superheavies in general like Bowser, DK or even Charizard that do not care one iota about his armour and have generally better mobility/burst options, range and frame data than Kazuya.

Incineroar as mentioned is likely volatile but doable for Kaz
 
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Sucumbio

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Bowser is going to be a horrid match up from my experience last night. Bowser doesn't care about Kazuya's armor and can just scoop you way faster with his slam than Kazuya can. Kazuya struggles HARD to get back on stage against Bowser too. Bowser can just spit fire to tack on a lot of % and then just sit and wait for you to hit anything then do his spinning fortress to tack on more damage. I was also getting scooped even with well spaced back tilts against shields. It's insane I was getting grabbed but alas I was.

Bowsers mobility is also oppressive. He's way faster in every regard and can just dance in and out to bait a you then chew you up with grab combos that Kazuya just cannot escape at all.
Kazuya will need to bait and punish Bowser. Probably lots of characters fit this distinction.
 

Wigglerman

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Kazuya will need to bait and punish Bowser. Probably lots of characters fit this distinction.
That's entirely the problem though. Bowser is still far too fast (Hilariously enough) for Kazuya to get in effectively without getting juked or just outright clobbered in the process. Again, this is online experience and may be far easier offline but all last night every time I went for a punish I'd get scooped, had fire spat at me or get OOS'd fortressed as he could often shield before my moves even came out.

Day two experiences, of course. Just so far Bowser was hands down my toughest experience so far. It felt nearly unwinnable online (Especially when bowser's command grab feels virtually unreactable online sometimes and that's how he killed me 9/10 times. Just couldn't seem to dodge it nor can Kazuya just jump to avoid it due to his already mentioned jump squat issues). Just felt like Bowser could punish me on everything. Was rough stuff.

But will keep hitting the grind with him after work tonight. Not disheartened or anything. Day 2, still figuring stuff out and just jotting down initial thoughts/experiences.
 
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Emblem Lord

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unlike other characters that sometimes get circle camped, the difference is your margin of error vs kazuya vs say mac or ganon is much, much smaller. and if he gets you, you are taking 70 if not more or even death.

rleiably circle camping kazuya is not a good approach imo especially when he has those dash cancels.

other issue with circle camping is a competent stage banner should take this into a count and not let you go to pokemon stadium or Bf more than once a set.
Kazuyacord is already looking into counter play.

The Double Jump Cancel is key. He is definitely not as susceptible to circle camping as people think.

Mind you, the opponent has to get a lead first and THEN circle camp. Which means engaging Kazuya. A baby combo with Kazuya ending in Gates of Hell will do over 40%. A decent combo is 50%. He has basic neutral tools that can lead to 45% EASILY. We already found death combos that are real and not hard at all. Nowhere near as hard as anything in Tekken or Melee. The hitstun on EWGF is so high that you can follow the DI and do whatever. So much that even when the combo counter stops registering it an opponent cannot mash out or airdodge. It has Smash 64 levels of hitstun.

Going back to combos, something as basic as utilt, dftilt, Gates of Hell is over 45%. Dtilt to Hellsweep is also 45%. This is good damage off SAFE pokes.
Stonehead, Electric, Triple Roundhouse is 56%. That's off a grab. These are basic confirms. They are not hard. A single mistake means you either die or take huge damage. Not to mention Kazuya's non killing enders leave him in stage control. You still have to land OR get off the ledge.

Any up close exchange favors him HEAVILY. And if Kaz gets a lead....LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL!!

We are all gonna have a very fun time watching high level Kazuya play.

I think Sonic and ZSS may end up being the only ones that can legit camp him heavily without TOO much fear.

Then again Rising Toe Kick is frame 4 and intangible. We haven't even really gotten air to ground confirms fully down yet.

This character is so fun.

Trust me.
 

Sucumbio

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That's entirely the problem though. Bowser is still far too fast (Hilariously enough) for Kazuya to get in effectively without getting juked or just outright clobbered in the process. Again, this is online experience and may be far easier offline but all last night every time I went for a punish I'd get scooped, had fire spat at me or get OOS'd fortressed as he could often shield before my moves even came out.

Day two experiences, of course. Just so far Bowser was hands down my toughest experience so far. It felt nearly unwinnable online (Especially when bowser's command grab feels virtually unreactable online sometimes and that's how he killed me 9/10 times. Just couldn't seem to dodge it nor can Kazuya just jump to avoid it due to his already mentioned jump squat issues). Just felt like Bowser could punish me on everything. Was rough stuff.

But will keep hitting the grind with him after work tonight. Not disheartened or anything. Day 2, still figuring stuff out and just jotting down initial thoughts/experiences.
Ah well yeah online is going to be rougher for Kazuya because he needs his inputs on point but if you're getting punished so broadly then your overall strategy needs to focus more on defense and to not react to Bowser as if you're a normal smash character. Kazuya fsmash is slow for instance but a well timed crouch dash leads to several spacing options that connect to at least 1 super hit (not necessarily a smash) that then leads to more hits if they fail to recover properly.
 

meleebrawler

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Kazuya will need to bait and punish Bowser. Probably lots of characters fit this distinction.
I find the both of them quite similar, in both attributes and playstyle. Bowser also has horrific walk speed that means nothing with everything else he has, and of course similarly hits hard. He just trades of some combo potential for more speed and defense. It honestly feels as even as can, they're just both really volatile in their disadvantages so one player being better can make the matchup feel worse than it really is.
:ultmythra: can also circle camp Kazuya all day just like ZSS and Sonic, in addition, Mythra is great at juggling people when they're in disadvantage due to her disjointed up air that autocancels three frames after the hitboxes end, can autocancel from a short hop fastfall and can combo and kill due to its high base knockback. Kazuya does not like being put in a juggle situation at all and it's difficult for him to escape disadvantage compared to the Shotos and Terry even with his stall and fall.
How does Mythra circle camp anyone? Her lateral air speed and movement specials aren't fast or far-reaching enough to do this. I'm getting real sick of people lumping her as a stereotypical speedy top tier that can do anything that fighters like ZSS, Sheik and Pikachu can.

Anyway, the juggling argument against Kazuya stands but Mythra has low per-hit damage, which means Kazuya's armor can put in some work on her. Pyra is honestly more annoying to him since he can't trade or tank her moves as easily, and Blazing End is just the right kind of move that not even wavedashing can beat.
 

Ziodyne 21

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I don't think :ultmythra: Will not be able to circle camping Kazuya easily too Yeah she has the speed and range to try and keep him out. But she does not have greatest Sheild safety in her airiels. So if she does not space correctly or ends up overextending Kazuya can potentially punish her BIGTIME for it. You want to circle-camp him as Mythra you better be on point 24/7

Plus her low damage per hit will make her somewhat suspectible to Kazuya's armour. Foresight could be a problem though
 
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Thinkaman

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Matchup thoughts. I have had a record low amount of Kazuya early experience, so this is even more speculative than usual:

:ultbowser: seems great! Just Flying Slam him all day, kills sooner and lives longer. Just beat him out with raw speed and power.
:ultincineroar: I liked. Recovers fine, doesn't care about armor, neutral-b beats a lot of Kazuya options, side-b shines. Revenge isn't super relevant but doesn't need to be; it's great it just exists so off-stage lasers are off the table. Really just felt like in this matchup, he got to play a simplier, more straight-forward version of Kazuya's side.
:ultlucina: I had trouble not being suffocated by as Kazuya, and I really had to constantly guess specific counters to her moves. But when I did, Heaven's Gate on nairs and b-tilt on fairs and uf-tilts on d-tilts and f-tilts on Dancing Blade consistently offered me appealing reward for my specific callouts. Perhaps someone more proficient than my Day 2 Crouch Dash could break the zoning better, but her speed advantage is pretty large.
:ultness: seemed fine. It's scary that Kazuya can challenge his fair harassment, but Ness's toolkit broadly works as usual and his recovery isn't threatened by Kazuya.
:ultlittlemac: is a mixed bag, leaning bad. His fall speed and limited disadvantage tools are pretty easy for Kazuya to have his way with, and That One Throw (you know the one) is legitimately devestating to Mac. There are MANY stage positions where a successful Kazuya side-b or db-tilt at mid-%s is the stock, nivermind a raw command grab itself. In most circumstances, this alone would make the matchup extremely skewed, but everything else is actually pretty great for Mac. Suffocating Kazuya with a 1f jab is great, and even Mac tilts are a headache. Mac who doesn't have to care as much about shields is a happy Mac. Side-b does good work as always and breaks armor. Devil Blaster is a potential issue for Mac but there's always Slip Counter. Kazuya's weight and gravity aren't quite as exploitable as Mac would like, but are enough for KO Punch setups to work great. (connecting in windows that confirm to kills)

Edit: Mac also wins favorable in a direct smash-on-smash comparison--his are faster, safer, about as strong, and fully armored. (Whereas Mac nullifies Kazuya's armor.) Mac is capable, more than almost any other character, of frequently killing Kazuya before Rage is on the table.

:ultjigglypuff: I didn't like, despite her gimp potential. Kazuya's vertical kills are just too early, and he can armor through dairs and late aerials thatPuff normally relies on to be safe.
:ultisabelle: I didn't like againzt Kazuya. My harassment did so little compared to the huge rewards he'd get when he did break through. Planting mine, which does seem good against Kazuya, is extra risky because of Kazuya's shield-break potential--planting a risky mine and hitting shield is no longer a good idea. (When a mine is attacked, the explosion also hits Isabelle's shield. Combined with the enemy's attack this can be a ton of shield damage, but it's not usually a problem because how often is Isabelle stressing her shield? But with Kazuya, the explosion is enough to make his anti-shield attacks insta-breaks.) Fishing Rod is good, but if you mess up the cost is just so high.
:ultganondorf: has it rough, seems terrible. Kazuya has all these tools based on the assumption that he has either crippling range, speed, and attack speed issues (probably 2 out of 3) in any given matchup, but against Ganon he has none. Ganon's slight speed advantages are nothing compared to Kazuya's raw output on each neutral win, nevermind the burst mobility. Ganon offstage is probably the best case scenario where Devil Blaster shines. Sure, Ganon uair is even better here than usual and ignoring armor is a nice consolation prize, but this matchup feels terrible.
 
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Wigglerman

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Seems I'm not the only one who has similar thoughts as my earlier posted ones on the Bowser match up. It's incredibly oppressive. Flying Slam is a near auto win button against Kazuya. XD It's insane. It's a match up I want to grind more of soon, though.
 

Gleam

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I'm curious on the thoughts of Kazuya's matchup with :ultkrool: because from my perspective, K.Rool's tools can be quite problematic to much of Kazuya including not only relative superior speed and mobility, but an inclusion of just better range and imo, easier punishment against Kazuya. But I also find the likes of Crown and it's effects to be, at times, detrimental to Kazuya. At times effectively putting a stop or hinder to a few of his combo set ups, or just straight up smacking him in the face mid grab.

Right now it does seem that a lot of the potential heavyweights along with their own unique aspects, can in someway, hinder Kazuya in a way that some of the lighter fights can't.
 

Sucumbio

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I find the both of them quite similar, in both attributes and playstyle. Bowser also has horrific walk speed that means nothing with everything else he has, and of course similarly hits hard. He just trades of some combo potential for more speed and defense. It honestly feels as even as can, they're just both really volatile in their disadvantages so one player being better can make the matchup feel worse than it really is.
True! I've grown to respect Bowser and Donkey Kong as their A game is legit. Kazuya can punish most of it, which due to design makes him feel like the aggressor. A character who thrives on keeping things out of neutral.
 

Ziodyne 21

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I wonder if DK has a slight advantage over Kazuya. Like Bowser he has better overall mobility, reach and frame data and scoffs at his armour. I think the strong hitbox of DK's dash attack will bullzode though most of Kaz's armoured attacks alone.

Plus good grab/throw games seem like they will be effective vs Kaz and DK does have one of the scariest around. DK can constantly grab and toss Kazuya around like ragdoll if he gets a good read on them.
I don't think DK recovery will be too much of an issue in the MU either
 
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Thinkaman

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I'm curious on the thoughts of Kazuya's matchup with :ultkrool: because from my perspective, K.Rool's tools can be quite problematic to much of Kazuya including not only relative superior speed and mobility, but an inclusion of just better range and imo, easier punishment against Kazuya. But I also find the likes of Crown and it's effects to be, at times, detrimental to Kazuya. At times effectively putting a stop or hinder to a few of his combo set ups, or just straight up smacking him in the face mid grab.
Actually, I'm half pessimistic about K. Rool, unlike the other heavies. (Or DDD who I have no idea about.)

in matchups where he doesn't want to get close, K Rool lives for Crown, right?

Well, boomerangs are the slowest projectiles and the easiest to reflect. Unlike many projectiles, the difficulty/execution-delay of Kazuya's reflector is not much of a barrier for them. (And it is used in the grounded neutral so it applies.) If you are a Link or Belmont, you don't care; you have time to block/avoid a reflected boomerange, it doesn't do much damage to you anyway, and it's just one of several tools. But K. Rool will get hit by the reflected crown (since it's a higher commitment throw and it's a high velocity reflect) and he will take a pretty rude amount of damage for it.

Lots of characters have reflectors. But K. Rool isn't trying to avoid close range with those characters at all cost.

It's not all bad. Being able to belly armor nair through double pistons or such is a nice win, and the weight is favorable. But I'd much rather be Bowser or DK.

-----

Rage has a weird relationship with high damage characters.

The characters who would normally fight Lucario (or Terry or Joker or...) to 190% most stocks have games that revolve around safe ranged options. These characters will have to deal with Kazuya rage, but so what? Everyone has to! Very few characters can kill a 113 weight fast faller (with a long recovery) before 100%.

Indeed, is the those "pester" high-damage characters who are the ones most able to inflict another 40% to Kazuya before getting grabbed--a dangerous armored grab that could be lethal at abnormally low %s.

I suspect that, unless you are a heavyweight (or Little Mac) who is actually capable of consistently killing Kazuya at <100%, you'd rather be say Young Link than Fox when it comes to dealing with Rage--quite the opposite of Lucario.
 

blackghost

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i would not be optimistic on K rool matchup with Kazuya. not only becuase crown is easy for him to either step or reflect but because he does so much singular damage that belly armor is going to get eviscerated.
 

The_Bookworm

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i would not be optimistic on K rool matchup with Kazuya. not only becuase crown is easy for him to either step or reflect but because he does so much singular damage that belly armor is going to get eviscerated.
That would probably be very relevant if this was pre-8.0.0 K. Rool.

However, his belly armor is able to take so much hits now, specifically 36.2 HP of damage (technically it is 18.1 HP, but since the armor splits damage between itself and K. Rool, it is effectively double that). Pre-patch, it was 28.2 HP.

I legitimately have never seen K. Rool's belly armor break ever since the patch.
While Kazuya's individual hits does do a lot of damage, his insane damage output comes from his combo strings of individual hits.
He would destroy pre-8.0.0 K. Rool belly armor easily, but K. Rool's armor is now too resilient for it to be a problem for the croc in my eyes.
 
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