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Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

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  • Total voters
    568

DougEfresh

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 23, 2020
Messages
206
Changes confirmed for the characters (sinced they're seemed to be a lot more of that than start-up changes):

:ultminmin
USmash: Frame 7 -> 8
Sweetspotted USmash: KBG 80 -> 77 (early hit)/76 (mid hit)/75 (later hit)

:ultbanjokazooie:
UTilt: KBG 114 -> 119
FSmash: KBG 94 -> 97
BAir: KBG 144 -> 136
Angle 46 -> 41

:ultmarth:
Sweetspotted Dash Attack: Damage 12% -> 13%
KBG: 55 -> 58
BKB: 95 -> 93
Sourspotted Dash Attack: Z Offset: 2.0 -> 0.5

Sweetspotted UTilt: Damage 9% -> 10%
Sourspotted UTilt: Z Offset: 2.0 -> 0.5

Sweetspotted DTilt: Z Stretch: 0 -> 7.2
Sourspotted DTilt: Z Offset: 16.7 -> 15.7

:ultbayonetta:

I also think it's worth mentioning this: :ultlucario: got a shadow buff/fix to force palm grab to notably improve its consistency as a command grab. It's only one change and not meta--changing for him by any means, but because FPG is one of Lucario's main kill options (especially after conditioning shield from the opponent) and the aggravating jostling interactions with shield causing it to whiff a lot at point blank pre-patch, this is definitely a welcome change that was long overdue.
 

Wigglerman

Smash Ace
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After just running about 30 sets with a friend of mine (Online, sadly) he feels great. When I was in the training room he felt way better. He was giving me some sets against Joker, Lucina and Cloud. All three were a hassle on day one as not everything is in my brain yet for all his commands, nor my execution for them. I've found his crouching moves are, by far, the hardest to actually use. I REALLY wish he had the Tekken crouch walk so you could just tip tap back or forth just a little for better positioning. I couldn't land a single while standing either.

Though he kills at derpy percent ranges and Gates of Hell when you're cornered just KILLS people. It's a way to turn the tide when your opponent thinks they've got you trapped. One wrong move and they get grabbed. Dead.

I felt his armor wasn't super helpful. F-Smash, sure. But down and up smash rarely factored in. His tough guy did little at all either.

Side-Special is kinda a trap move, as a Kazuya player. It's no Raptor Boost. You also have to be ON IT to get any follow ups from a stagger. Luckily the few times I DID manage to land his side special I could follow up with Dragon Uppercut or Spinning Demon to Left to kill dummy early.

Laser is an interesting tool. It's free off stage pressure. It can also kill quite early at times with a well timed snipe. Not at all a 'in the neutral' tool in one on one. I was able to use it mid air to evade Eiha from Joker fairly often and even get a punish with my laser, but those were the minority of instances. Mostly used to to manipulate their recovery option or cheese a stock. Use at your own risk, for sure.

If he can get rolling, keep an opponent scared he can feel super oppressive. He can bust shields easy so it was causing my bud to get button happy as opposed to blocking too much, so taking advantage of those traits wasn't common. Though the few times he got scared he either got shield popped or he ate throws and Kazuya's throws HURT.

Rarely used Heaven's Door outside of the command version while in Rage. It's really darn slow and I was whiffing it a LOT in all sorts of situations, even when I thought I had the read. The armor on it is great BUT it is only great if you can actually land the move.

His recovery is...eh. Did the reveal say he could do both his side special AND up special in the same jump sequence? I thought it did and I'm now too tired to go check XD But having to do one or the other is kinda crappy. ESPECIALLY since Side Special gives SO little distance. I suppose he can't have the privilege of being super heavy AND having a super solid recovery.

I'd love to play more of him offline to see how these experiences vary. Regardless, he's still super fun for me. I legit plan to solo main this guy from here on out. I think there's far too much to to discover, situations to explore and figure out just how to make this mad lad on rolls. I wanna spend time labbing the right timing for his electrics and practice some proper follow ups to them staggers. Also see about learning to utilize his while standing in some way.
 

Thinkaman

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Kazuya Tough Guy seems to offer protection at 14 knockback and below; for contrast, Bowser's is 19, and his weight helps extend that a tad more.

What does this mean? Well, Bowser can tank any rapid jab in the game up to various really high %s, extended more while crouching. Kazuya can tank some, but not all, Rapid Jabs at low %s.

He cannot tank "heavy" rapid jabs at all like :ultlittlemac::ultminmin:ultduckhunt::ultbanjokazooie::ultinkling::ultsheik::ultridley::ultpikachu::ultgnw:, as well as other moves like Nayru's Love or Mega Man pellets. (All of which Bowser can)

Others "medium" rapid jabs, like :ultrobin::ultpalutena::ultkingdedede::ultvillager::ultbayonetta::ultcorrin::ultmetaknight::ultpyra::ultmythra: Kazuya can tank at extremely low %s only.

Other weaker rapid jabs he can tank at various higher thresholds, though nothing like Bowser's effectively infinite levels. Kazyua, like Bowser, can extend these windows slightly by crouching.
 

Idon

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Alright after fighting 3 consecutive hours against a dedicated Min Min/Ness main, Kazuya against zoners isn't exactly the easiest of matchups. Hopefully some future pro-Kazuya main develops some tech to get in on these characters easily because I've come up with nil.
 

Hydreigonfan01

Smash Champion
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Aug 24, 2018
Messages
2,188
Sparg0 and Leo talked about the Pyra/Mythra nerfs, doesn't really affect their tier placement.
 

meleebrawler

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Your first hurdle with Kazuya is learning the discipline to use Flash Punch combo instead of 10-hit. Smash DI away from the latter and you can almost always get out.

Devil Twister up smash is great for getting quick KOs with narrow openings.
 

Sucumbio

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Watching Kazuya Dittos on nairo stream... he relied on grab game for confirms and demonstrates Kazuya is very fast with some interrupts even in mid air but you can still play him as a smash character effectively (it looked a lot like zss without a tether). He lost a few due to lack of knowledge in what connects with what but going for 2 to 4 confirmed hits is about as rewarding as 1 well placed smash.

And his rush down to reward ratio is definitely not op. Lucina can keep him on defense.
 
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blackghost

Smash Champion
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Jul 9, 2015
Messages
2,089
Im with Emblem Lord Emblem Lord this is kazuya gameplay staright from tekken.
this is gonna take a while but quick impressions:
1. The kazuya ditto is not telling much about the character. If anything it tells you some very false things such as laser being better than it is and ten hit combo being viable. in 2 weeks everyone worht thier weight will sdi out of ten hit.

2. only kazuya i saw that seemd impressive was ninjalink. he was using the dash effectively and that seems to be the key. sakurai is a master at this he has successfully dropped tekken gamplay into ultimate. What i mean by that is in tekken most important skll is movement and it is often your defense. another key part of tekken is knowledge frame data and individual character matchup knowledge. a good kazuya player is going to need to know so many things to suceed things that often in smash havent mattered (what you can armor, other character tech's rolls, reach, and more). he has skill requirements that ar erelated but not the same as others. bayonetta players learned to not overextend kazuya requires that, ryu and ken know what thier optimal combo punishes are as well as psuedo setups and traps kazuya has that.

optimal kazuya is likely months if not more away. I can speculate that an optimized kazuya player will touch you twice and kill you. he will also be able to use his step to get to and punish things most other characters can only dream of. This character would almost be more at home in melee than ultimate.

honestly if you want to learn kazuya and dont know where ot begin i'd watch tekken 7 gameplay of kazuya and go from there. that will teach you a lot.
It is funny that kazuya is on the other end of the wierdness scale after steve. no one knew what either character was at launch and opinions are everywhere.
 

Emblem Lord

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Im with Emblem Lord Emblem Lord this is kazuya gameplay staright from tekken.
this is gonna take a while but quick impressions:
1. The kazuya ditto is not telling much about the character. If anything it tells you some very false things such as laser being better than it is and ten hit combo being viable. in 2 weeks everyone worht thier weight will sdi out of ten hit.

2. only kazuya i saw that seemd impressive was ninjalink. he was using the dash effectively and that seems to be the key. sakurai is a master at this he has successfully dropped tekken gamplay into ultimate. What i mean by that is in tekken most important skll is movement and it is often your defense. another key part of tekken is knowledge frame data and individual character matchup knowledge. a good kazuya player is going to need to know so many things to suceed things that often in smash havent mattered (what you can armor, other character tech's rolls, reach, and more). he has skill requirements that ar erelated but not the same as others. bayonetta players learned to not overextend kazuya requires that, ryu and ken know what thier optimal combo punishes are as well as psuedo setups and traps kazuya has that.

optimal kazuya is likely months if not more away. I can speculate that an optimized kazuya player will touch you twice and kill you. he will also be able to use his step to get to and punish things most other characters can only dream of. This character would almost be more at home in melee than ultimate.

honestly if you want to learn kazuya and dont know where ot begin i'd watch tekken 7 gameplay of kazuya and go from there. that will teach you a lot.
It is funny that kazuya is on the other end of the wierdness scale after steve. no one knew what either character was at launch and opinions are everywhere.
He really feels like a melee character. Not an ultimate character.
 

Brother AJ

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Hey y'all. I'm wanting to get more involved in the competitive side again, so I thought this would be a good place to check out. Hope you're all well.

Kaz is looking interesting, but I'm curious to see how many people will stick with him. I want to see what dedicated players can pull off with him.
 

The_Bookworm

Smash Champion
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Jan 10, 2018
Messages
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:ultkazuya: mobility stats are here.


Grounded Mobility

Walk - 0.66
The 2nd worst walk speed in the game, second only to Incineroar, and lower than Jigglypuff.

Initial Dash - 1.58
The 3rd worst initial dash in the game, third only to Dr. Mario and Steve, and lower than Olimar.

Dash Speed - 1.55
The 68th-69th fastest dash speed in the game (tied with Min Min). In-between Bowser Jr. and Wolf.

Overall
Very poor ground mobility stats, one of the worst in the roster.
He NEEDS to utilize Crouch Dash at all times in order for him to execute his gameplan effectively.



Aerial Mobility

Air Speed - 0.89
The 78th-79th fastest air speed (tied with Byleth). In-between Banjo and Incineroar.

Air Acceleration - 0.01/0.03/0.04 (Base/Additional/Max)
The 82nd-84th fastest air acceleration (tied with Ganondorf and Little Mac), effectively making it the 6th-8th worst air accel in the game.
Only 0.005 higher than the Shotos, who sits right below him at 85th-86th.

Fall Speed - 1.7
The 27th-29th fastest fall speed in the game (tied with ZSS and K. Rool). In-between Snake and Cloud/Lucario.

Fast Fall Speed - 2.72
The 28th-30th fastest fast fall speed in the game (tied with ZSS and K. Rool). In-between PPlant and Cloud/Lucario.

Gravity - 0.108
The 13th highest gravity in the game. In-between Incineroar and Bowser/Diddy.

Overall
Aerial mobility stats are also very poor, having Shoto level air acceleration, but by far the worst air speed of the FGC group.
He falls fast from the ground, which is good for him since Kazuya wants to stay grounded as much as possible, although it does have the side effect of making him even more combo fodder.



Miscellaneous

Weight
- 113
The 8th heaviest character in the game. In-between Charizard/Incineroar and Piranha Plant.

Jumpsquat - 7 (Meshima says it is 6, but others reported it to be 7)
The only character with irregular jumpsquat frames, being 4 frames higher than the rest of the cast.

Traction - 0.115
The 29th-30th highest traction in the game (tied with Fox).
Traction stats are unimportant due to everyone in Ultimate having high traction.

Tough Body - 14 KB Units
Not as high as Bowser's 19 KB units, weakened further by his much lower weight in comparison to Bowser.
Refer to Thinkaman's post above for more info.



Overall
Honestly, terrible stats across the board.
Has mobility stats comparable, and even worse in some areas, than Ganondorf and Incineroar.
Very high weight and fast falling speeds gives him good raw survivability and landing opportunities, but also makes him one of the easiest characters to combo in the game.
Combine all of this with his poor startup frame data and frame 7 jumpsquat, he feels like a SSB4 superheavy in Smash Ultimate.

This kind of shows how incredibly important and crucial Crouch Dash is to Kazuya's entire character design.
 

Sucumbio

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:ultkazuya: mobility stats are here.


Grounded Mobility

Walk - 0.66
The 2nd worst walk speed in the game, second only to Incineroar, and lower than Jigglypuff.

Initial Dash - 1.58
The 3rd worst initial dash in the game, third only to Dr. Mario and Steve, and lower than Olimar.

Dash Speed - 1.55
The 68th-69th fastest dash speed in the game (tied with Min Min). In-between Bowser Jr. and Wolf.

Overall
Very poor ground mobility stats, one of the worst in the roster.
He NEEDS to utilize Crouch Dash at all times in order for him to execute his gameplan effectively.



Aerial Mobility

Air Speed - 0.89
The 78th-79th fastest air speed (tied with Byleth). In-between Banjo and Incineroar.

Air Acceleration - 0.01/0.03/0.04 (Base/Additional/Max)
The 82nd-84th fastest air acceleration (tied with Ganondorf and Little Mac), effectively making it the 6th-8th worst air accel in the game.
Only 0.005 higher than the Shotos, who sits right below him at 85th-86th.

Fall Speed - 1.7
The 27th-29th fastest fall speed in the game (tied with ZSS and K. Rool). In-between Snake and Cloud/Lucario.

Fast Fall Speed - 2.72
The 28th-30th fastest fast fall speed in the game (tied with ZSS and K. Rool). In-between PPlant and Cloud/Lucario.

Gravity - 0.108
The 13th highest gravity in the game. In-between Incineroar and Bowser/Diddy.

Overall
Aerial mobility stats are also very poor, having Shoto level air acceleration, but by far the worst air speed of the FGC group.
He falls fast from the ground, which is good for him since Kazuya wants to stay grounded as much as possible, although it does have the side effect of making him even more combo fodder.



Miscellaneous

Weight
- 113
The 8th heaviest character in the game. In-between Charizard/Incineroar and Piranha Plant.

Jumpsquat - 7 (Meshima says it is 6, but others reported it to be 7)
The only character with irregular jumpsquat frames, being 4 frames higher than the rest of the cast.

Traction - 0.115
The 29th-30th highest traction in the game (tied with Fox).
Traction stats are unimportant due to everyone in Ultimate having high traction.

Tough Body - 14 KB Units
Not as high as Bowser's 19 KB units, weakened further by his much lower weight in comparison to Bowser.
Refer to Thinkaman's post above for more info.



Overall
Honestly, terrible stats across the board.
Has mobility stats comparable, and even worse in some areas, than Ganondorf and Incineroar.
Very high weight and fast falling speeds gives him good raw survivability and landing opportunities, but also makes him one of the easiest characters to combo in the game.
Combine all of this with his poor startup frame data and frame 7 jumpsquat, he feels like a SSB4 superheavy in Smash Ultimate.

This kind of shows how incredibly important and crucial Crouch Dash is to Kazuya's entire character design.
Agree.

These stats are what was necessary to make him play like he'd been plucked from 7 and dropped in smash.. an ode to Tekken players for better or worse. Better if you learn how his options punishes everything and worse if you try to use him without everything he has.

. sidenote . He himself is surprisingly punishable lol so don't get greedy
 
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Hydreigonfan01

Smash Champion
Joined
Aug 24, 2018
Messages
2,188
:ultkazuya: mobility stats are here.


Grounded Mobility

Walk - 0.66
The 2nd worst walk speed in the game, second only to Incineroar, and lower than Jigglypuff.

Initial Dash - 1.58
The 3rd worst initial dash in the game, third only to Dr. Mario and Steve, and lower than Olimar.

Dash Speed - 1.55
The 68th-69th fastest dash speed in the game (tied with Min Min). In-between Bowser Jr. and Wolf.

Overall
Very poor ground mobility stats, one of the worst in the roster.
He NEEDS to utilize Crouch Dash at all times in order for him to execute his gameplan effectively.



Aerial Mobility

Air Speed - 0.89
The 78th-79th fastest air speed (tied with Byleth). In-between Banjo and Incineroar.

Air Acceleration - 0.01/0.03/0.04 (Base/Additional/Max)
The 82nd-84th fastest air acceleration (tied with Ganondorf and Little Mac), effectively making it the 6th-8th worst air accel in the game.
Only 0.005 higher than the Shotos, who sits right below him at 85th-86th.

Fall Speed - 1.7
The 27th-29th fastest fall speed in the game (tied with ZSS and K. Rool). In-between Snake and Cloud/Lucario.

Fast Fall Speed - 2.72
The 28th-30th fastest fast fall speed in the game (tied with ZSS and K. Rool). In-between PPlant and Cloud/Lucario.

Gravity - 0.108
The 13th highest gravity in the game. In-between Incineroar and Bowser/Diddy.

Overall
Aerial mobility stats are also very poor, having Shoto level air acceleration, but by far the worst air speed of the FGC group.
He falls fast from the ground, which is good for him since Kazuya wants to stay grounded as much as possible, although it does have the side effect of making him even more combo fodder.



Miscellaneous

Weight
- 113
The 8th heaviest character in the game. In-between Charizard/Incineroar and Piranha Plant.

Jumpsquat - 7 (Meshima says it is 6, but others reported it to be 7)
The only character with irregular jumpsquat frames, being 4 frames higher than the rest of the cast.

Traction - 0.115
The 29th-30th highest traction in the game (tied with Fox).
Traction stats are unimportant due to everyone in Ultimate having high traction.

Tough Body - 14 KB Units
Not as high as Bowser's 19 KB units, weakened further by his much lower weight in comparison to Bowser.
Refer to Thinkaman's post above for more info.



Overall
Honestly, terrible stats across the board.
Has mobility stats comparable, and even worse in some areas, than Ganondorf and Incineroar.
Very high weight and fast falling speeds gives him good raw survivability and landing opportunities, but also makes him one of the easiest characters to combo in the game.
Combine all of this with his poor startup frame data and frame 7 jumpsquat, he feels like a SSB4 superheavy in Smash Ultimate.

This kind of shows how incredibly important and crucial Crouch Dash is to Kazuya's entire character design.
Yeah, this is a massive hinderance to Kazuya. I feel as though plenty of fast characters with better range such as :ultsonic:, :ultzss:, :ultmythra:, :ultsheik: and :ultjoker:can just win neutral, get a stock lead because they also have great advantage states and then just circle camp until running out the timer.
In fact, that's Cosmos's strategy as a Pyra/Mythra player.
https://twitter.com/CosmosZR/status/1410053960011030531 (Warning, swearing)
 
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The_Bookworm

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 10, 2018
Messages
2,858
Now there are a few shadow changes/quirks that has been discovered.

:ultkazuya: Strange quirk with his forward smash.
Apparently the sourspot of forward smash is coded with 0.1x shieldstun multiplier, but this is actually bugged so it isn't applied.
If this multiplier worked properly, sourspot forward smash would have only 3 frames of shieldstun. lol

Also, Kazuya's jab 3 (when doing 10 Hit Combo), has a 5.0x SDI multiplier, which I find hilarious.


:ultkingdedede: This character loves receiving shadow changes doesn't he? It is a minor one to Inhale.
In the words of Ruben, "Inhaling something in the air script has additional code on frame 1, if current vertical speed is lower or equal to -2 then +2 vertical speed is added to Dedede, if he has less or equal to 2.52 then it adds -2.5 vertical speed."
In other words, using Inhale midair will now slow his descent while falling and it makes you fall faster while rising. An... odd change to say the least.

:ultlucario: Has received a much needed change to Force Palm.
The jostle mechanics of Ultimate really hurt Force Palm as a move, as it makes it harder for the move's grabbox to actually hit an opponent, especially a shielded opponent, despite the buffs it has received from updates.
In the words of Ruben, "Jostle horizontal push speed and overlap rate set to 0.1 on script when grabbbox comes out, probably to prevent opponents from being pushed a lot when trying to grab them."
This helps alleviate this ever present issue around this move. Probably the most helpful shadow buff in this patch.

:ultmarth::ultlucina: Has their down throw adjusted.
Basically instances where down throwing someone at the ledge, causing them to go below the ledge and bounce off the side of the stage, has been fixed.

:ultminmin Her rapid jab of all things got adjusted.
The rapid jab finisher hitbox is ever so slightly bigger. Pretty much a change you will never notice.

:ultolimar: Final shadow change (so far), and it is a strange one. His forward throw got adjusted.
Basically once Olimar activates the forward throw, it takes the Pikmin 17 frames to complete the throw. Now it takes 18 frames to complete.
What does this mean for Olimar? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING! :)

At the very least, I have heard a few Olimar players (including Dabuz) really liking the forward smash buff.

Speaking of which, Dabuz is also really liking the :ultrosalina: change.
 
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blackghost

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 9, 2015
Messages
2,089
I'm not gonna get hung up on his ground mobility stats. Wavedash looks ridiculous here.

He's not gonna struggle closing the distance.
invicnible dash that cancels into itself. his mobility stats are the most deceptive in the game. they legit dont matter.
 

Emblem Lord

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invicnible dash that cancels into itself. his mobility stats are the most deceptive in the game. they legit dont matter.
Shhhhhhhh

Let people think he is bad on the ground even though he literally invented wavedashing.
 
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Dr. Metal X

Greeting
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Don't mind me, just sharing this for folks here.
 

TTTTTsd

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Echoing the sentiment that if you're going to be moving around on the ground, you won't be running. You'll be utilizing his dashes and his wavedash which is incredibly fast and low profile. In addition to being able to move forward with the Crouch Dash, you can also backdash out of the Crouch Dash and cancel into any of those like 5-6 tilts that are diagonal or backward, or just utilize the really fast speed of his backdash in general to do a standard tilt or whiff punish/apply pressure.

Kazuya's standard grab range and dashgrab are also incredible, and yep, you can do them out of Crouch Dash or a forward dash! And his D-Throw leads to stable combos at many %s! It's good!

The amount of precision and intricacies to his grounded movement and spacing are quite literally unrivalled by any other character in this game, nobody comes close to this degree of freeform control on the ground. It's an extremely strong niche to have I think, but how meta relevant it is can only be proven over time.

He's very cool and very fun. I hope the next Smash game has ground movement even as close to as fluid as his is here, it feels genuinely incredible
 

Firox

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 7, 2019
Messages
3,274
I love Dabuz's post.

"I jumped once with Kazuya and I don't know if I want to lab with him anymore."

Good lord this character is........something.
Funny thing is I totally agree with this sentiment. I just really hate the way he feels. His first jump is horribly low and the wingbeat of his second jump feels really wonky. Also, the frame data on his Neutral B really is dismal. The only things about him I see as kind of broken is the stupid amount of I-frames he's got along with his absurdly armored down B insta-kill BS. His micro-spacing is handy but I don't seem him doing so hot against really mobile opponents or ones with really oppressive zoning.
 

Thinkaman

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EWGF seems important to DI out, but it doesn't appear difficult to do so.

Also:

Rage is dismissed at 650 "points", where 1 damage is 17.6/11.22 points in 1v1/teams and each grab-whiff is 110 points.

In other words, ~37% in 1v1 (grab whiff counts as 6.25%) or ~58% in teams (grab whiff counts as 9.8%).

Edit: More fun facts.

You can OoS uf-tilt and ub-tilt, though I have trouble executing it. (You cannot do it with down options.) Both are frame 14, so this doesn't change much, but ub-tilt has some utility in its saftey, and uf-tilt has great reward, more than u-smash usually.

Down-b appears to have 10% heavy armor that starts on frame 5, same as f-smash. Pretty dang good, but heavies can probably breath a sigh of relief.

Will be incredible for catching fairs that do 10% or less damage raw.

Edit2:

So, with 10% (raw) of 5f armor, Heaven's Gate becomes a brutal answer to fairs and nairs that are normally safe on shield.

If you have a fair that does 10.5% (like Lucina), great! You are safe.

If you have weaker or multi-hit moves (like ROB or Palutena) you are in trouble!

:ultpalutena::ultrob: :ultsheik::ultzss::ultsquirtle::ultpikachu::ultpichu::ultmythra::ultpit::ultdarkpit::ultmetaknight::ultjoker::ultisabelle::ultfox: and such are really called out by this.

:ultwolf::ultroy::ultyoshi::ultivysaur::ultmario::ultluigi::ultduckhunt: might have some issues too, as they will need to be very careful which aerial/hitboxes they use.
 
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Myollnir

Smash Ace
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Up-back tilt OoS is really good to reposition yourself.
Keep in mind it's a jump cancelled option, so the slower you are to input it after your jump, the slower it comes out. I think of it as inputting a smash after jumping out of shield but diagonally. Tilt stick does not work.
Up-forward tilt can probably punish some stuff optimally, things that are laggy but with a lot of shield push (smashes) or rising retreating aerials.

Outside of that I really don't have much more to say than what I did before the release, I haven't been surprised by anything except at how quickly EWGF comes out, you can confirm into it from D-Throw, U-Tilt1 and more...
 
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meleebrawler

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Funny thing is I totally agree with this sentiment. I just really hate the way he feels. His first jump is horribly low and the wingbeat of his second jump feels really wonky. Also, the frame data on his Neutral B really is dismal. The only things about him I see as kind of broken is the stupid amount of I-frames he's got along with his absurdly armored down B insta-kill BS. His micro-spacing is handy but I don't seem him doing so hot against really mobile opponents or ones with really oppressive zoning.
If for reasons I can't really fathom why you feel the need to jump high as Kazuya, it's better to just treat his up special as his real jump. It's his hardest hitting juggle, his air mobility is temporarily improved greatly after it and he gets it back if he takes a hit. His normal jump is pretty much just used as a short hop without needing to specifically input for it, actually is there a significant difference between his full and short hops?
 

xzx

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Yo, did something happen to Hero this patch? I can see a change in his parameter data? Or am I reading things wrong?
 

The_Bookworm

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Yo, did something happen to Hero this patch? I can see a change in his parameter data? Or am I reading things wrong?
Where in the data viewer for Hero do you see this change?
As far as I can tell, nothing has changed for character, but maybe some obscure thing has been adjusted.


Btw, from what I heard, I think they also shadow buffed/fixed :ultswordfighter:'s Gale Stab.
I left a comment in Beefy Smash Dood's video informing the comment section of all the shadow changes in this patch (it shouldn't be hard to find since it has over 100 likes).
One user told me that Gale Stab got fixed/buffed.
Previously, there was apparently a bug where hitting someone with the move would prevent Swordfighter from grabbing the ledge until he entered special fall. This has now been fixed.
This seems believable, since this user says that he has been monitoring Gale Stab's behavior for a while, and Gale Stab is easily a move that can go under the radar.
Just to be sure, can someone confirm this for me?
 
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Dr. Metal X

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Where in the data viewer for Hero do you see this change?
As far as I can tell, nothing has changed for character, but maybe some obscure thing has been adjusted.


Btw, from what I heard, I think they also shadow buffed/fixed :ultswordfighter:'s Gale Stab.
I left a comment in Beefy Smash Dood's video informing the comment section of all the shadow changes in this patch (it shouldn't be hard to find since it has over 100 likes).
One user told me that Gale Stab got fixed/buffed.
Previously, there was apparently a bug where hitting someone with the move would prevent Swordfighter from grabbing the ledge until he entered special fall. This has now been fixed.
This seems believable, since this user says that he has been monitoring Gale Stab's behavior for a while, and Gale Stab is easily a move that can go under the radar.
Just to be sure, can someone confirm this for me?
Did some testing, and while I can't confirm 100% since idk the difference between the previous version and the one we have now, it does snap quite fast after you hit someone at the ledge with this move, like I don't need to wait the full animation for Swordfighter to grab the ledge.

If someone can double check to be sure, that would be awesome.
 

xzx

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Where in the data viewer for Hero do you see this change?
As far as I can tell, nothing has changed for character, but maybe some obscure thing has been adjusted.


Btw, from what I heard, I think they also shadow buffed/fixed :ultswordfighter:'s Gale Stab.
I left a comment in Beefy Smash Dood's video informing the comment section of all the shadow changes in this patch (it shouldn't be hard to find since it has over 100 likes).
One user told me that Gale Stab got fixed/buffed.
Previously, there was apparently a bug where hitting someone with the move would prevent Swordfighter from grabbing the ledge until he entered special fall. This has now been fixed.
This seems believable, since this user says that he has been monitoring Gale Stab's behavior for a while, and Gale Stab is easily a move that can go under the radar.
Just to be sure, can someone confirm this for me?
Someone left a link some pages ago where you could see what changed from 11.0.1 to 12.0.0 (data dump) and I looked up Hero and saw something highlighted in green and red.

ALSO YES THEY FINALLY HAS FIXED GALE STAB, THAT BUG WAS SO ANNOYING ahem, have to test it out myself next time I boot up Ultimate.
 

xzx

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Did some testing, and while I can't confirm 100% since idk the difference between the previous version and the one we have now, it does snap quite fast after you hit someone at the ledge with this move, like I don't need to wait the full animation for Swordfighter to grab the ledge.

If someone can double check to be sure, that would be awesome.
It was fixed then, because I remember that I always SD:ed with it when I hit someone standing on the ledge. It was so annoying and frustrating when that happened.
 

Firox

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If for reasons I can't really fathom why you feel the need to jump high as Kazuya, it's better to just treat his up special as his real jump. It's his hardest hitting juggle, his air mobility is temporarily improved greatly after it and he gets it back if he takes a hit. His normal jump is pretty much just used as a short hop without needing to specifically input for it, actually is there a significant difference between his full and short hops?
I mean, I fully realize that he isn't exactly built for jumping and I'm well aware of how he's supposed to be played, I'm just saying that as a Greninja main, the difference in mobility is like being an Olympic gymnast that just got turned into a quadriplegic. That's just how I feel, anyway. I know his dash is really good, it's just weird to me how differently he handles. I'm just not really compatible with Kazuya.
 

Thinkaman

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Devil Blaster is interesting to consider.

Obviously it's not a move you can just, use. You can use it to ledgeguard agaisnt linear recoveries and provided limited counter-pressure to characters who just want to do crap from a safe distance.

But it's super easy to reflect, will always hit Kazuya if reflected, and for a meaty reward. It's also great to PSI Magnet, Bucket, or Pocket--with Pocket you always pull out the medium-damage horizontal version (does 25% post-multiplier 1v1) and with frame 9 startup but just as much travel distance/speed; it's a considerably superior projectile than Kazuya's own.

Kirby Devil Blaster is also superior. Like Kirby Sheik Needles, he can dodge the original but Kirby's lower version will always hit. Kazuya's down-angled laser is harder to land and does 12.0%, while Kirby's flat one can't be ducked and does 15.8%.
 

Alicorn

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Alright after fighting 3 consecutive hours against a dedicated Min Min/Ness main, Kazuya against zoners isn't exactly the easiest of matchups. Hopefully some future pro-Kazuya main develops some tech to get in on these characters easily because I've come up with nil.
Yeah Septhiroth gives Kazuya a hard time, the people I played against online rarely used Kazuya's reflector often ending up triggering my down B. 10 hit combo also feels like a free way ticket to One Wing Angel for Septhrioth.
 

Spinosaurus

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My early read on this character is that he will struggle with characters who can circle camp him.

Not zoners. Not sword characters. He probably smokes those, if anything.
 

Thinkaman

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Kazuya Reflector is x2.4 damage, the highest in the game. It's also an impressive x1.8 speed.

It starts reflecting on frame 6, hits on frame 12 in theory but a later frame in practice. Ends reflecting on frame 17.

Keep in mind the command inputs require a minimum of 3 additional frames before any of this, which also forces forward movement that further eats de facto time. Kazuya's reflector is essentially a harder to land version of Min Min's that cannot be done OoS, but offers the highest reward in the game of any pure reflect.


:ultmewtwo:s beware: Like Ness bat, or Min Min u-smash, a reflected Shadow Ball will be too strong for you to ping-pong back if it was fully charged. Only a less than half-charged Shadow Ball will be safe from this!
 

The_Bookworm

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Kazuya Reflector is x2.4 damage, the highest in the game. It's also an impressive x1.8 speed.

It starts reflecting on frame 6, hits on frame 12 in theory but a later frame in practice. Ends reflecting on frame 17.

Keep in mind the command inputs require a minimum of 3 additional frames before any of this, which also forces forward movement that further eats de facto time. Kazuya's reflector is essentially a harder to land version of Min Min's that cannot be done OoS, but offers the highest reward in the game of any pure reflect.
I feel that the input restriction will only result in this reflector being extremely gimmicky. It is very rewarding when it works, but I think it requires a hard read in order to actually pull it off.


Btw, :ultswordfighter:'s Gale Stab is not the only shadow change that when under the radar.
A user on my YouTube comment has told me that :ultdiddy:'s up B has also got an annoying bug shadow removed.
Previously, using this move out of hitstun would result in the move resorting back to its pre-3.1.0 physics and make Diddy fall like a rock. This appears to have been fixed.
 

Emblem Lord

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Yeah Septhiroth gives Kazuya a hard time, the people I played against online rarely used Kazuya's reflector often ending up triggering my down B. 10 hit combo also feels like a free way ticket to One Wing Angel for Septhrioth.
Interesting that you can call matches for a Day 1 character.
 

Ziodyne 21

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Interesting that you can call matches for a Day 1 character.

Well I think it is a possibility that the MU can be hard. Seph has the range and options to keep playing outside of Kazuyas range and keep him from playing his game. But Kazuya can potentially blow up Sepiroth If he does get in. Id say :ultsonic::ultzss::ultshulk::ultminminare possibly :ultcloud:Will be more problematic
 
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meleebrawler

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Keep-away in both zoning and mobility forms are defiinitely weaknesses for Kazuya, but you and your character have to be extremely potent in that regard to make things truly difficult for him, and even then a single mistake can evaporate the hard work in getting and maintaining that lead.

If you don't have a Gunner, Megaman or Belmont level ability to keep a barrage going from multiple angles, it won't be that hard for him to get into uncomfortable wavedash range by doing things like "gliding" with up b, or the occasional disruptive laser. Someone like Sephiroth might outrange him, but he can only really throw one thing out at a time, often at heights prime for wavedash dodging. Flare line is also one of the easiest things for Kazuya to reflect on purpose with devastating results, and he will often hit Sephiroth hard enough to not even let him get a chance to go one wing.

In general, the more you try not to engage Kazuya, the more he gets out of his lasers. Even if they're not actually landing, they make it easier for him to control and guess his opponent's movements.
 
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Swamp Sensei

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In my own (mediocre) Kazura experience, I've noticed that Kazuya has a real hard time getting out of juggles. Down Air is an option, but I feel like once you're up, you're not coming down any time soon.
 
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