• The new bonus episode of the Smash Brothers Documentary Metagame, Godslayer, is now available on Vimeo

  • Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

?


  • Total voters
    565

KirbySquad101

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 7, 2015
Messages
875
They couldn't give me a better DBFZ character? lel

But anyway, I feel like generally arguing whether or not Hero is a well designed character is kinda a moot point when A: There is a LOT of characters you can argue that have some form of questionable design behind them (in particular, I still think ZSS, Luigi, and Steve's kits harbor some really shoddy design choices), and B: That's... not really tied to his viability. I can definitely tell it's a topic that sparks up a LOT of conversation, but I also don't really see the need to bring it up constantly the moment Hero is in the spotlight when - in my opinion - it detracts from any potentially meaningful discussions that can be made about his performance potential.

Performance potential that includes silly stuff like this for example lol
 
Last edited:

Tri Knight

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 10, 2015
Messages
783
The new OrionStats are pretty much going against almost everything I've been saying lmao I love it. Shulk's #1, Bowser is in top 15, Sheik and Hero are top tier, Pikachu is nowhere to be found, Toon Link is the best Link...

Nice! Cant wait for Kirby to come out of the depths of hell and contest with Shulk and Sheik for Top 3!

By the way, next time give me Vegeta guys.
 
Last edited:

Rizen

Smash Legend
Joined
May 7, 2009
Messages
14,535
Location
Colorado
I'd say you're just experiencing a notably bad matchup. YLink needs projectiles and even with them has to look for specific kill confirms which your tourney regulars will know by now. That gives Hero a lot of time to search for the jank comeback, on top of the Bounce double whammy. I'd wager both of the other two Links have a better MU than Young, even if Toon's is only marginally better cause of fair and bair killing on time.
IMO :ultyounglink:vs:ulthero: is even although it's extremely volatile. Bounce is such a good option in this MU that it's in Hero's best interest to fish for it when he gets the chance. Without bounce Hero struggles to pin YL down and his spells get easily interrupted by YL's projectiles. With bounce YL can still zone him with Zair but YL does not like Hero's disjoints. YL generally controls the match better than Hero but Hero can Hero him and kill at ridiculously low %s.
Hero's a character you can never count out; one time my Wolf died at 20% from across the stage due to being hit by hatchet man.
 

Tri Knight

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 10, 2015
Messages
783
That's the thing with Hero. He can feel either absolutely OP or like absolute trash in just about any given MU considering the luck of the draw.

If he can't land a bounce on a zoner like Young or Toon Link he's gonna have a bad time. But if he's getting it every stock the lil' Links are gonna have a bad time.

That's what I hate about him though. He's got a good kit but never feels like he's in full control. At least a character like Shulk can control his buffs according to what he needs at the time.
 

SwagGuy99

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 28, 2016
Messages
703
"Also iirc Hero has among the lowest upset % among the entire cast, which is quite amusing."
Source?
This is actually true, or at least it was before Akak started doing well with him.
 

blackghost

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 9, 2015
Messages
2,045
Hero's a character you can never count out; one time my Wolf died at 20% from across the stage due to being hit by hatchet man.
I'm sorry but getting hit with a hatchman is more on you than anything else.
We knew within a week that hero was an anti zone. We knew you would have to approach him and more so rush him down to keep menu out of the match.

As for the rest of this argument, Hero with perfect rng means what exactly? I need that to be defined. He always gets what he wants, and lands it? some of these moves have less than a 20 percent chance to show up. And he always crits with smash attacks? Hero smash attacks are bad. Like if you get hit with them you've been hard read or you weren't spacing correctly. I'd much rather face "perfect rng" hero than a peach that always pulls stitch faces and mr. saturns. 😆 that's not even a question.

High level hero players lean into the reliable parts of his career to pressure with buffs and an incredible projectile game for wins. It's not about fishing for whack or thwack.

As for competitive design questions, people are confusing what they are comfortable with vs what is actually unhealthy for 1v1 items item less smash. Currently, the only character I can 100 percent see as unhealthy is Luigi. For pretty obvious reasons.

Every time someone does well with an unusual character it doesn't mean the character is underrated. It could mean these players are just good.
 
Last edited:

ARISTOS

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 1, 2016
Messages
728
Location
The Empire
Yeah Akikasu is just dope lmao. Lots of mixups between landing Kaswoosh, charged Kafrizz, dash up jab, Menu in general - his game sense is just very strong overall.

In terms of design I think Smash character design is all over the place - the counterplay to Hero is pretty consistent across the cast (which is maintain pressure and don't let him set up) which I think largely ends up being fine. I think losing to Hero feels worse than his actual impact on the game.
 

StrangeKitten

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 25, 2020
Messages
1,511
Location
Pokemon Stadium 2
I wish all of Hero's spells were viable. It's a shame he's saddled with so many bad ones. If Hero players didn't have to sift through trash like Oomph, Snooze, Acceleratle, Magic Burst, and Bounce to get to the good spells such as Metal Slash and Kaclang, he'd be far better. April Fool's, mother truckers!

Also, I appreciate that Fighterz was chosen for our prank since we've spent the past couple pages talking about Toriyama's character!
 

Ziodyne 21

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 11, 2016
Messages
1,572
People say Luigi design is unhealthy in this game which I guess. He still has legit 0-Deaths even after he was patched. However Luigi has not really gotten good results at all so far in Ultimates meta. Even the top Luigi player Elegant has struggled and he was getting amazing results in Smash 4 with Luigi even at the end of the games competive life.

Luigi basically has a lot of other flaws being slow stubby and having a weak recovery. His gameplan is either to get a 0-death you or at least big damage conversions or struggle the rest of the way . At least he greatly appricates the recent ZSS nerfs
 

ARISTOS

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 1, 2016
Messages
728
Location
The Empire
People say Luigi design is unhealthy in this game which I guess. He still has legit 0-Deaths even after he was patched. However Luigi has not really gotten good results at all so far in Ultimates meta. Even the top Luigi player Elegant has struggled and he was getting amazing results in Smash 4 with Luigi even at the end of the games competive life.

Luigi basically has a lot of other flaws being slow stubby and having a weak recovery. His gameplan is either to get a 0-death you or at least big damage conversions or struggle the rest of the way . At least he greatly appricates the recent ZSS nerfs
Posting a lot because I got my boy Jiren

Luigi is really mediocre IMO. In a game where there is less space to run and you'd be more forced to play into Luigi's game he'd be stronger but there are too many strong characters who can play outside of Luigi's range and checkmate him. Not being able to chase air camping is really bad in this game and unlike in Smash 4 you don't get as many attempts to play the game. On top of this, his ability to control grounded space is not strong either. His one real strength is his ability to roll you at close quarters but it's not enough on a game to game basis.
 
Last edited:

Rizen

Smash Legend
Joined
May 7, 2009
Messages
14,535
Location
Colorado
People say Luigi design is unhealthy in this game which I guess. He still has legit 0-Deaths even after he was patched. However Luigi has not really gotten good results at all so far in Ultimates meta. Even the top Luigi player Elegant has struggled and he was getting amazing results in Smash 4 with Luigi even at the end of the games competive life.

Luigi basically has a lot of other flaws being slow stubby and having a weak recovery. His gameplan is either to get a 0-death you or at least big damage conversions or struggle the rest of the way . At least he greatly appricates the recent ZSS nerfs
:ultluigi: is one of a few characters who have terrible mobility but wreck you once they get in. :ultdoc::ultincineroar::ultkirby: also fit into this category. :ultsteve: sort of does but he's really his own thing. Unfortunately for them there are characters with good mobility who vortex just as well like Mario, Fox and the rats.
 
Last edited:

Nobie

Smash Champion
Joined
Sep 27, 2002
Messages
2,209
NNID
SDShamshel
3DS FC
2809-8958-8223
Hero RNG is glorious.

Also, on the most recent Tweek Talks, they were discussing how one of Akakikusu's strengths is how quickly he uses the menu (makes attacks from it feel almost instantaneous), and how he uses it for mindgames. For example, he'll have it open and ready to select a buff. Sometimes he will select the right spell, but other times he'll use it to bait you in and then pick a Hatchet Man or Kacrackle Slash or something instead.

While we're still discussing whether or not the menu RNG is fair or good design, he's learning to master it as a meta tool.
 

The_Bookworm

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 10, 2018
Messages
2,820
Since we were talking about Hero all day for the past 3 days, and this year's April Fools theme for SmashBoards is DBFZ, the SmashWiki's April Fools article has provided us with a fitting image.

Hero Gohan 5-2.jpg


Edit: Also, imagine if the DBFZ community has a boards site like this one. I think this would be about what it would look like.

As for :ultluigi:, I think people are underselling his presence in the meta.
Back when offline was active, Elegant has gotten very great results with the character, such as 1st at Standoff 2019 and 2GG: SoCal Chronicles 2020, 4th at Low Tier City 7, 9th at No Fun Allowed 3, 13th at Frostbite 2020, and 17th at EVO 2019, Shine 2019, and Genesis 7.
He is not really that much of a frequent contender in major tournaments, as well as not really placing well in earlier ones in Ultimate, but it is still pretty good.
The character also has a sizable playerbase of players such as SMB, HIKARU (co-mains him), Navy, and Landon doing well with him.

The character has definitely taken a back-seat during the online meta. While Elegant is still very much active, he doesn't really participate in much of any online tournaments. Other top Luigi players have also not been very active in the online meta as well.

In terms of his character design, I do admit that he isn't the most well designed character. Similar case with SSB4 Luigi, and that version of the character had the cheesy cyclone gimps. At least his frame data is just as fast, if not even faster than Mario, and he possesses powerful KO confirms that he can pull at his back-pocket, as well as strong KO'ing options like back air and up smash.

So while he does have aspects of poor character design, he still has a solid enough foundation within his kit to enforce his playstyle and be a pretty good character imo.
 

Attachments

Last edited:

RonNewcomb

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 29, 2014
Messages
435
As for the rest of this argument, Hero with perfect rng means what exactly? I need that to be defined. He always gets what he wants, and lands it? some of these moves have less than a 20 percent chance to show up. And he always crits with smash attacks? Hero smash attacks are bad. Like if you get hit with them you've been hard read or you weren't spacing correctly. I'd much rather face "perfect rng" hero than a peach that always pulls stitch faces and mr. saturns. 😆 that's not even a question.
I'd say if one thinks at least 25% of his whole spell list is OP BS then he already has perfect rng, cause he's getting some flavor of stitchface on every single menu pull. 😂

Also Videl best girl
 
Last edited:

Tri Knight

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 10, 2015
Messages
783
Hero Gohan 5-2.jpg
Hero Gohan 5-2.jpg


Edit: Also, imagine if the DBFZ community has a boards site like this one. I think this would be about what it would look like.
I am very satisfied with the fact that #2 is just straight up Mystic Gohan.

Sorry, on topic comment. I commend the high level players that try to focus on developing Hero. His playstyle is an absolute headache to me.
 
Last edited:

Zachmac

But...DRAGONS!
Joined
Nov 2, 2014
Messages
8,725
Location
Southern California
NNID
AbsolBlade
3DS FC
4210-4109-6434
Switch FC
SW-1754-5854-0794
Ah shoot, I'm on a message board for Dragonball FighterZ despite knowing nothing about Dragon Ball. Well this is embarrassing. I guess I'll just throw out a bunch of random anime names and hope I sound smart.

Ahem.

I think we're currently thw FighterZ community is underestimating Luffy. We look at his long reach and think that means he has to play totally defensive, but in a game with rushdown monsters like Naruto and Ryuko it's easy for defensive characters to get overwhelmed. While this might make Luffy seem like a low tier, I think that if we optimize ways to utilize his range more offensively we can get better results.

For instance, Luffy has one of the longest command grabs in the game, but it's not quite as long as many of his medium and heavy attacks reach. This means he has to move forward a bit before using it, which has the unfortunate downside of making it a bit more telegraphed. However if he spends more time in the long-midrange poking with his light attacks, I think he can kill two birds with one stone by both conditioning shield all the while making his command throw a less telegraphed. What I'm suggesting is that he should be played not as a pure zoner, but rather a sort of zoner grappler hybrid.

This style of playing him I think will really benefit him against mid range sword wielders like Ichigo and Inuyasha who he'll be able to stay just outside the preferred range of.

Not to say you should never play super defensively. Of course against slow power houses like Jojo and Shrek he'll still want to play the long range game. Shrek in particular will totally wreck you if he can close the gap so you obviously want to play as risk free as possible against him. But even in match ups like Naruto you'll need to understand there are times to fall back and slow things down. Being flexible and adapting to the situation will always be more important then staying true to a single play style.

Phew. Did they buy it?
 
Last edited:

MrGameguycolor

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 16, 2015
Messages
1,192
Location
Somewhere in this Universe
NNID
MrGameguycolor
Switch FC
7681-9716-5789
:ultluigi: is one of a few characters who have terrible mobility but wreck you once they get in. :ultdoc::ultincineroar::ultkirby: also fit into this category. :ultsteve: sort of does but he's really his own thing. Unfortunately for them there are characters with good mobility who vortex just as well like Mario, Fox and the rats.
Eh...
Sort of with :ultdoc:.


Though honestly most of his deadly combo often have tight windows, need an option done in a very specific way, or both...
 

TennisBall

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 17, 2019
Messages
266

KirbySquad101

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 7, 2015
Messages
875
Ah shoot, I'm on a message board for Dragonball FighterZ despite knowing nothing about Dragon Ball. Well this is embarrassing. I guess I'll just throw out a bunch of random anime names and hope I sound smart.

Ahem.

I think we're currently thw FighterZ community is underestimating Luffy. We look at his long reach and think that means he has to play totally defensive, but in a game with rushdown monsters like Naruto and Ryuko it's easy for defensive characters to get overwhelmed. While this might make Luffy seem like a low tier, I think that if we optimize ways to utlize his range more offensively we can get better results.

For instance, Luffy has one of the longest command grabs in the game, but it's not quite as long as many of his medium and heavy attacks reach. This means he has to move forward a bit before using it, which has the unfortunate downside of making it a bit more telegraphed. However if he spends more time in the long-midrange poking with his light attacks, I think he can kill two birds with one stone by both conditioning shield all the while making his command throw a less telegraphed. What I'm suggesting is that he should be played not as a pure zoner, but rather a sort of zoner grappler hybrid.

This style of playing him I think will really benefit him against mid range sword wielders like Ichigo and Inuyasha who he'll be able to stay just outside the poor range of.

Not to say you should never play super defensively. Of course against slow power houses like Jojo and Shrek he'll still want to play the long range game. Shrek in particular will totally wreck you if he can close the gap so you obviously want to play as risk free as possible against him. But even in match ups like Naruto you'll need to understand there are times to fall back amd slow things down. Being flexible and adapting to the situation will always be more important then staying true to a single play style.

Phew. Did they buy it?
Well... your analysis of Luffy has very many holes in it, and also references characters that aren't even in the game like Shrek (he doesn't even land until next week!).

BUT, your profile pic is of Cell, unarguably the coolest character in all of Dragon Ball, so I am heavily inclined to believe you regardless.
 

Wunderwaft

Smash Master
Joined
Mar 21, 2019
Messages
3,244
Mmm heads up it seems we got another bug on our hands.

 

Rran

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 3, 2014
Messages
129
My two cents on the Hero-RNG discussion after having watched the recent Akikasu sets...

Firstly, I actually really love his design: it's an inspired way of implementing RPG mechanics into a fighting game (and it must've been a total nightmare to program; i'm sure the developers were relieved to work on the relatively simple Banjo afterwards)... But my appreciation for the character is more conceptual than anything--it's very novel, and I love it for that (same goes for Steve).

As to the effectiveness of delivering a satisfying character within a competitive fighting game... ? On one hand, it's difficult to argue that there isn't a certain level of RNG to Hero's design, but on the other... I wouldn't say RNG is why Akikasu got as far as he did in the tournament.

Maybe if he had a random chance of automatically using Hocus Pocus everytime he selected a spell from the menu: yeah, that would be an unhealthy degree of RNG. But I'm kinda okay with knowing that this character has a rotating pool of specials to select from, and that I--as the opponent--can prepare for everytime he hits down-B.

I can certainly understand the frustration of using a projectile-based character and then seeing that little purple circle around Hero ("well ****. guess I'm not gonna be using my missiles anytime soon"). But at the same time, at least I know not to use any projectiles (compared to, say, shooting a shadow ball at Fox and then feeling like a chump when he sends it right back)--it's just something I anticipate will happen at some point during a match, and so I temporarily adjust my gameplan accordingly...

But yeah, I can go back and forth on this all day, which is sorta the reason why I actually love Hero's design: he's a character who I feel shouldn't work, but somehow does.
 

Thinkaman

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Aug 26, 2007
Messages
6,471
Location
Madison, WI
NNID
Thinkaman
3DS FC
1504-5749-3616
Crits are the more questionable part, except they don't matter much in practice because unlike Menu his smashes are pretty bad, among the worst in the game numerically. Snooze and dair combos are pretty much all that is propping them up.
 

Rizen

Smash Legend
Joined
May 7, 2009
Messages
14,535
Location
Colorado
:ulthero:'s design is great for the party game side of smash. He's basically "Items the character". But in competitive smash we do everything possible to eliminate luck from the game; we turn off items and have a very conservative set of stages. RNG should have no place in competitive fighting games. It's bad design from a competitive standpoint.

Take the Hero vs YL MU for example. Hero probably loses to YL -1 without bounce. It would be even more if Hero couldn't Hero you and kill at absurdly low %s. But if he rolls bounce suddenly he's at a +1.5 advantage. The MU is extremely dependent on if Hero gets lucky or not. It's to the point where Hero is best off fishing for bounce. Bounce is an OP reflector, the best in the game by far, except he rarely gets it.

I'd have been happier if Hero had a spell wheel like Shulk's arts where he could choose any at any time but then they would have a several second cool down. Maybe tone them down a bit too. I don't mind Shulk at all; I think arts bring some much needed variety to the common sword zoner type.
 
Last edited:

Tri Knight

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 10, 2015
Messages
783
I do think RNG has its place on the competitive side. I look at Peach's chance at pulling Bob-Ombs or Mr. Saturn. Even its face determines damage, right? Or G&W's Judge mechanics. Those aren't illegal moves and yet they're RNG based attacks.

The difference though, and why I agree with Rizen Rizen on the Hero issue, is that too much of Hero's kit relies on it. Sure, his Smash attacks aren't all that great but a crit can take an early stock under no fault of the player controlling him other than landing the attack itself. Even the Snooze setup is pure RNG.

The biggest takeaway imo is that the amount of RNG baked into the character makes his matchups way too skewed both for and against him. Where almost any given matchup can end up really good for Hero or really bad for Hero based on mathematical luck. That's why I personally don't care for him.
 

blackghost

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 9, 2015
Messages
2,045
the crazy arguments for anti-hero always come out "but he COULD crit me at 0 and kill me." i mean game and watch could 9 me at zero and kill me but thats almost never brught up. the devs knew what they were doing with hero hence why they gave him awful smashes he doesnt have mythra fsmash or something insane. he has bottom 5 smash attacks with up smash possibly being the worst in the game.

when did hero become this menace of a character taking stocks at low percents? the outliers with this character are routinely brought up. that is not functionally how hero works more than 90 percent of the time.

the fact he can put on bounce and beat a few characters is fine but bounce isnt permanent and a character like young link is way better of the villager or isabel who really have no options at that point. young link still has a sword and elite movement to just wait it out. like i said before hero is antizone. we need those in this game as well.
even when hero buffs his speed or power his frame data aint changing he isnt suddenly better at boxing he just goes from being one unknown to another. there are characters in the game that are so rare people really dont know some of the funkier movement they can pull off bayo, hero, terry's, ken, and ryus to name a few.

i think sitting on this board and ridiculing the character's design only because someone FINALLY did well with the character in a stacked event is really in bad taste. especially when you watch the matches with hero he was mostly playing for buffs.

lastly i still find the rng aspect of his kit to be overblown. both players have the ability to see what his choices are and he cannot randomly pick unless its hocus pocus which has low appearance rate, is basically never the correct play, and is skewed for an outcome AGAINST hero. moving on to the projectiles themselves they vary in speed and hitbox but not in angle. they all go straight forward. its not like some are aimed, homing, or controlled. they are all the same in that apsect.

personally, yes i like hero's design because the alternative is getting more characters like banjo who's lack of options and vanilla playstyle have basically renderd him left behind by much of the playerbase as soon as the honeymoon phase was up and he had the shortest honeymoon phase of dlc ive seen.
 

meleebrawler

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 8, 2014
Messages
8,111
Location
Canada, Quebec
NNID
meleebrawler
3DS FC
2535-3888-1548
I do think RNG has its place on the competitive side. I look at Peach's chance at pulling Bob-Ombs or Mr. Saturn. Even its face determines damage, right? Or G&W's Judge mechanics. Those aren't illegal moves and yet they're RNG based attacks.

The difference though, and why I agree with Rizen Rizen on the Hero issue, is that too much of Hero's kit relies on it. Sure, his Smash attacks aren't all that great but a crit can take an early stock under no fault of the player controlling him other than landing the attack itself. Even the Snooze setup is pure RNG.

The biggest takeaway imo is that the amount of RNG baked into the character makes his matchups way too skewed both for and against him. Where almost any given matchup can end up really good for Hero or really bad for Hero based on mathematical luck. That's why I personally don't care for him.
Frankly you can see pretty much any competitive game interaction as luck-based if you try hard enough. How many times have we debated whether so-and-so landed a power hit because he was smart or his opponent was dumb (and thus the user was "lucky")? If Rock-Paper-Scissors is luck-based, what does that make the Attack -> Throw -> Block -> Attack theory? When approaching a sniper's nest in a shooter, are there not various probabilities of your chosen path being watched or booby-trapped?
 

Tri Knight

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 10, 2015
Messages
783
Frankly you can see pretty much any competitive game interaction as luck-based if you try hard enough. How many times have we debated whether so-and-so landed a power hit because he was smart or his opponent was dumb (and thus the user was "lucky")? If Rock-Paper-Scissors is luck-based, what does that make the Attack -> Throw -> Block -> Attack theory? When approaching a sniper's nest in a shooter, are there not various probabilities of your chosen path being watched or booby-trapped?
You're not wrong but it's not the same as mathematical luck that's integrated into the mechanics of a character.

Technically if anything that means the odds should be stacked against Hero, who not only needs to be lucky enough to get the RNG he needs per MU, but also lucky enough to get the reads he needs to land his RNG in the first place.

That's why I don't like him and that's why I think it's bad design. I don't think he's OP. I don't think he's a "menace." I certainly am not ridiculing him over some wins he got. I literally just praised the people trying to develop his meta a page or two ago. I don't think another B-K is an automatic alternative if not for our "hero," Hero nor do I find that assumption even remotely fair. In fact, I find him unique, but I just think there's plenty room for much better designed fighters. Plain and simple.
 
Last edited:

Rizen

Smash Legend
Joined
May 7, 2009
Messages
14,535
Location
Colorado
Last edited:

Wigglerman

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 6, 2019
Messages
670
Location
Maine
Hero just feels like the king of 'feels bad man' moments and I can get why people get put off by him. As mentioned by Rizen, a lucky crit smash killing at insanely low percents is pretty soul crushing when you consider how much effort you normally need to put into sealing a stock but Hero can for all intents and purposes 'yolo smash' and just outright kill you for a single mistake.


Menu shinanigans can also make one feel like a kill was garnered out of no where.

Personally Hero doesn't bother me but I get the sentiment. I've been on the receiving end of crit hits or what felt like a yolo menu spell select that just merc'd me 'for free' and it can be discouraging. Hero...king of salt. :p
 

williamsga555

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 8, 2015
Messages
233
Location
Japan
The difference though, and why I agree with Rizen Rizen on the Hero issue, is that too much of Hero's kit relies on it.
I've seen this line of thinking both here and elsewhere among the smash community, but to be frank, I don't see where this is true. Hero absolutely benefits from fishing for buffs, of course, but I don't see many spots in his kit that seem to depend on any element of RNG at all.

Like, his smash attacks pretty much depend on either crits or snooze, sure, that's true enough
And his ability to kill from a grab relies on Psyche Up boosting his up-throw immensely, yep yep, I agree
And..?

There are definitely setups and confirms outside of this that rely on certain buffs (accelerattle stuff off of frizz, etc), but does Hero need those for his kit to function? Not in the slightest, no. Taking away all RNG elements he has, Hero still remains a character with a usuable OOS option, meaty aerials with generous arcing hitboxes, basic throw combos for % racking, a very threatening neutral b projectile and arguably the best side special in the game...those aren't a recipe for some broken top tier by themselves, no (especially with his poor ground game and mediocre mobility), but he could absolutely work well enough to be functional with just those at his disposal, surely.

But if he rolls bounce suddenly he's at a +1.5 advantage. The MU is extremely dependent on if Hero gets lucky or not. It's to the point where Hero is best off fishing for bounce. Bounce is an OP reflector, the best in the game by far, except he rarely gets it.
I understand the sentiment of bounce feeling unfair because it is a ludicrous reflector, but is the RNG nature of it really the issue here?

What I mean is that you're treating Bounce's pull as an if, not when. Testing indicates (doesn't prove, granted) that Bounce already has a higher percentage likelihood of appearing than almost all other spells by default. There's also the forced "variety" rules for the menu each time it's pulled up that would push the odds even further into his favor (From KuroganeHammer:)
"Cannot display the last 4 menu options. Bang/Kaboom, Sizz/Sizzle and Whack/Thwack cannot appear at the same time. Buffs (Bounce, etc) cannot appear while active."
If Hero wants to get Bounce, it's not going to be a "rare" pull, it's a nigh-inevitability within his basic play. It's not some ridiculously low-chance happening like a Mr. Saturn pull or something, and it's absolutely something the player is deliberately trying to get in appropriate matches ("I want a reflector against Young Link, and I know I can pull it in 1-3 menu cycles"). Honestly, if Bounce were tied to a guaranteed Shulk dial, would that really change the feeling of the matchup to any notably "healthier" degree?
 

NotLiquid

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 14, 2014
Messages
1,234
I understand the sentiment of bounce feeling unfair because it is a ludicrous reflector, but is the RNG nature of it really the issue here?

What I mean is that you're treating Bounce's pull as an if, not when. Testing indicates (doesn't prove, granted) that Bounce already has a higher percentage likelihood of appearing than almost all other spells by default. There's also the forced "variety" rules for the menu each time it's pulled up that would push the odds even further into his favor (From KuroganeHammer:)
"Cannot display the last 4 menu options. Bang/Kaboom, Sizz/Sizzle and Whack/Thwack cannot appear at the same time. Buffs (Bounce, etc) cannot appear while active."
If Hero wants to get Bounce, it's not going to be a "rare" pull, it's a nigh-inevitability within his basic play. It's not some ridiculously low-chance happening like a Mr. Saturn pull or something, and it's absolutely something the player is deliberately trying to get in appropriate matches ("I want a reflector against Young Link, and I know I can pull it in 1-3 menu cycles"). Honestly, if Bounce were tied to a guaranteed Shulk dial, would that really change the feeling of the matchup to any notably "healthier" degree?
Ding ding ding.

I'm having flashbacks to discussions about "letting" Steve get diamond. Hell, I'm having flashbacks to the two years ago we last had this conversation about his RNG. These are codified eventualities considering their nature. You can't play around these characters with the notion of preventing them because at that point you're letting them dictate the pace of the match. Hero's neutral is strong enough to a point that he has no problems whatsoever in finding openings to set up commands between his disjoints and specials to cover him. If he attempts to do a selection in neutral, he's only going to do that when properly spaced, and for a move that can be acted out of at Frame 20 at earliest, that's not actually bad if Hero knows exactly what he's looking for. Even if he doesn't roll Bounce on the first go, he still gets the opportunity to act from a defensive position, while discarding one batch to be in a more cognizant position that the next selection is bound to have what he's looking for. And all of this is only exacerbated in the event that Hero is actually pushing advantage since in those cases he's capable of performing multiple rolls.

This shouldn't even really be a debate, the numbers are in his favor here. Unless a character comes out that has a literal "disable Bounce/Command Special" attack, discussing Hero from the angle of preventing him from employing a passive option isn't going to lead you anywhere. Always assume he will get it if he wants it, presumably multiple times per round, then ask how you deal with that fact.
 
Last edited:

SKX31

Smash Master
Joined
Feb 22, 2019
Messages
3,072
Location
Sweden
The SWT South American online qualifier took place this past weekend. Looking back, putting an entire continent on the same qualifier with this online may not have been the best idea - especially not with the humongous mountain chain known as the Andes involved. Here are the 16 that qualified for the SA Regional:

1. 🇪🇨 Br1 AV :ultsnake: :ultsteve:
2. 🇪🇨 Anality :ultken: :ult_terry:
3. 🇨🇱 Frido :ultgnw:
4. 🇨🇱 Keen :ultwolf:
5. 🇨🇴 Ghoul979 :ultike:
6. 🇨🇱 Toon :ultness:
7. 🇨🇴 jjcat00 :ultsamus:
8. 🇦🇷 ZanT :ultpokemontrainer:
9. 🇨🇱 OZN-Tales :ultminmin
10. 🇵🇪 PoYo :ultsonic:
11. 🇨🇱 LinkEa :ultlink:
12. 🇨🇱 Wise :ultluigi:
(LCQ 1st) 13. 🇧🇷 Player 7 :ultgnw:
(LCQ 2nd) 14. 🇧🇷 Lukitu :ultpalutena:
(LCQ 3rd) 15. 🇧🇷 Luffyranha :ultinkling:
(LCQ 4th) 16. 🇨🇱 Ran :ultyounglink:

It was a pretty wild and interesting qualifier all things considered, despite the internet troubles and all that entailed. It was fun to see a number of scenes getting exposure that they usually don't get (the same with the Central American South qualifier last week). The SA Regional will be held July 30th - August 1st, with the one who wins the Regional gets a trip to the Global Finals.

The next Qualifier - this upcoming Saturday / Sunday - will be the European one. As with this one, Top 12 + top 4 in the LCQ go throught to the European Regional, with the EU Regional having 6 slots to the Global Finals. Both Glutonny and Mr. R will presumably participate, as will most other high-level EU players.
 
Last edited:

Diddy Kong

Smash Obsessed
Joined
Dec 8, 2004
Messages
24,927
Switch FC
SW-1597-979602774

tl;dw: Tweek thinks Diddy is Top Tier, and has "infinite potential". And is by far the most technical character in the game. He thinks Diddy is Top Tier because he's doing great vs the Top Tiers, and has only bad matchups against the zoners. Most who aren't Top Tier themselves, outside of Pac-Man and maybe Mega Man. Young Link and Duck Hunt are also rough, but as Tweek says; Diddy has enough creative options to work around bad matchups.
 

Tri Knight

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 10, 2015
Messages
783

tl;dw: Tweek thinks Diddy is Top Tier, and has "infinite potential". And is by far the most technical character in the game. He thinks Diddy is Top Tier because he's doing great vs the Top Tiers, and has only bad matchups against the zoners. Most who aren't Top Tier themselves, outside of Pac-Man and maybe Mega Man. Young Link and Duck Hunt are also rough, but as Tweek says; Diddy has enough creative options to work around bad matchups.
Tweek's opinion is one thing but let's hear it from the character himself: what do you think about yourself being among the top tiers?
 

Diddy Kong

Smash Obsessed
Joined
Dec 8, 2004
Messages
24,927
Switch FC
SW-1597-979602774
Tweek's opinion is one thing but let's hear it from the character himself: what do you think about yourself being among the top tiers?
Oh I took this username when I was about 12/13, I was upset that Diddy Kong wasn't a playable character in Melee, and he always was (still is) my favorite gaming character.

But I've been in this thread from the start claiming Diddy was hugely underrated, and despite not having his amazing dominance with defensive banana walls like in Smash 4 and Brawl, his combo output makes up for it. But people adapt slowly.

You see this mentality of "this character sucks cause I can't do the same thing as in Smash 4" has hurt more other characters, specifically Sheik, Mewtwo, and Rosalina. Who are now slowly getting more momentum and appreciation. Mewtwo really hates this new engine, but I do think this character has definite Top Tier qualities, with some weaknesses that would make him a lower end High Tier. Same as Rosalina and Sheik really.

Diddy however, definitely has an edge over them all due to his combo game, neutral dominance, versatility, and surprisingly good kill confirms. He just doesn't like being stopped in his tracks, and low air speed makes him easy to camp. So amongst the Top and High Tiers, he only really struggles against Pac Man, Mega Man, Duck Hunt, Young Link, and maybe Mario and Wario. But he has solid advantages against Palutena, Joker, Peach, Sephiroth, Lucina, and maybe even Mythra (Pyra is a given due to her speed).

So to me, it makes sense Diddy could easily be considered Top Tier. Or amongst the top of High Tier.
 
Top Bottom