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Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

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  • Total voters
    565

Thinkaman

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In tangential news, VikkiKitty has moved up to the big leagues. She deserves it; imo she was the best overall commentator we had, possessing a lot of the strongest points of other top presenters in our community in a single package.

I guess Coney is number 1 now; I didn't care for him much years ago, but he has really stepped up over time.

Commentary is hard but the formula isn't: One guy does flavor and the other does the play-by-play. But everyone wants to be the flavor guy, and I'm not watching smash for some dumb Abbott and Costello set talking over the action. I get it, play-by-play is hard, it's hard in sports and even harder in fighting games. (Where it's impossible to call out every input even if you wanted to, and you have to rapidly pick and choose what to describe.) But MOBAs and other eSports figured it out, and effective commentary was key in their spectatorship.
 

blackghost

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In tangential news, VikkiKitty has moved up to the big leagues. She deserves it; imo she was the best overall commentator we had, possessing a lot of the strongest points of other top presenters in our community in a single package.

I guess Coney is number 1 now; I didn't care for him much years ago, but he has really stepped up over time.

Commentary is hard but the formula isn't: One guy does flavor and the other does the play-by-play. But everyone wants to be the flavor guy, and I'm not watching smash for some dumb Abbott and Costello set talking over the action. I get it, play-by-play is hard, it's hard in sports and even harder in fighting games. (Where it's impossible to call out every input even if you wanted to, and you have to rapidly pick and choose what to describe.) But MOBAs and other eSports figured it out, and effective commentary was key in their spectatorship.
two things im happy for vikki shes been through a lot and has pushed through what no one should have to. congrats to her she will be great in OW league

on a different note, I do think smash needs to raise its expectations for people doing commentary on some of these matches. ive had to mute or just ignore misinformation from way too many people especially during online matches. I don't expect everyone to be as smooth as great commentators but i need people to have basic character knowledge and matchup information. I don't expect you to know the ins and outs of what witch time does in the terri matchup when he has GO but I do expect you not to tell people that Bayonetta has 4 jumps.

when I compare the commentary at the regional and local level for smash vs any other game there is a clear difference in preparation and information given. that misinformation is then repeated in comments, goes to Reddit, and sometimes shows up here. I just hope that is an area we can titigten up as a community especially with an exceptional one leaving us.
 

Frihetsanka

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Re: Hero - Hero's RNG is... not that relevant? When I watch Akakikusu play I see normal, fireballs, a lot of woosh, side b, a bunch of buffs (which are about as RNG reliant as peach turnips, a character that has been providing us with bomb pull twitter clips for 20 years now) and... yeah I guess the occasional magic burst, which while an incredible spell still has its flaws (needs MP, rare).
I've watched a decent amount of Hero, mostly Parappa (early meta), Salem (also early), +HOPE+ (more recently), and Akakikusu (recently). Good Hero players will use Menu a lot, and every time they pull up menu RNG comes into play, which 4 spells show up, and the other of the spell (being at the top vs being two steps away can make quite some difference in some situations, though usually I imagine it's fairly minor). Zoom is a great example of RNG: If Hero pulls Zoom, then he can escape disadvantage, if he doesn't then he has to recover and then will have to figure out how to get off of the ledge. Where you land with Zoom is also RNG, in some cases Hero could be punished for getting unlucky (though from what I've seen pulling Zoom is really safe). In the end, I would say that RNG plays a significant role in top level Hero, and good Hero players should learn how to use adapt to RNG pulls.

While we can't say for sure which of the two is the strongest, I'm kinda leaning the US still.
Something to keep in mind: Japanese players participating in North American tournaments will suffer from jetlag. Based on what we know right now, I would say that the US has stronger top top players (more top 5 players) but Japan might be stronger on average (maybe more top 50 player?). It's probably very hard for the PGR to be rated properly, they've probably underestimated Europe and Japan and possibly Mexico in the past. Quite hard to compare very different regions, I suppose.

Also, on the most recent Tweek Talks, they were discussing how one of Akakikusu's strengths is how quickly he uses the menu (makes attacks from it feel almost instantaneous), and how he uses it for mindgames. For example, he'll have it open and ready to select a buff. Sometimes he will select the right spell, but other times he'll use it to bait you in and then pick a Hatchet Man or Kacrackle Slash or something instead.
I've long believed that one of the keys to mastering Hero is mastering menu use. That's a flaw with Salem's Hero, his menu usage was never that impressive (arguably worse than Parappa's). Akakikusu's menu usage is really good, and it's likely to get even better over time. If Ultimate lasts for 5+ years then we could see more and more Hero mains with amazing menu usage. The 19 frame startup holds it back though, although most aggressive spells come out on frame 6, and I imagine pulling a frame 25 Snooze that leads to guaranteed kills around 30-40% (charged side-B) is very scary. Realistically speaking it won't be frame 25 since that would mean topdecking blindly, which is risky. Hero can hold menu and wait and then choose a frame 6 option (although somewhat telegraphed). The exceptions are: Thwack and Magic BUrst at frame 23, Kamikazee at frame 44 (invulnerable and unblockable though), Hatchet Man at frame 37 (very slow but hey, worked for Akakikusu), and, um... Metal Slash at frame 11 (garbage move?). So while menu is frame 19, most offensive spells are frame 6, which is fairly fast, and they tend to move fast too.

I wouldn't say RNG is why Akikasu got as far as he did in the tournament.
I don't think anyone is saying this. Clearly, Hero still takes skill, and some random player is unlikely to take a set off a top player (a decent Hero main might take a game win vs someone who they normally wouldn't but winning a set is significantly harder). Practically speaking, Hero is probably the character where RNG matters the most, Peach probably being second (turnip pulls, Stitch face pulls can be huge, and other turnips are also significant). I think we can simultaneously acknowledge that Hero still takes skill while RNG also being quite notable in most matchups.

the crazy arguments for anti-hero always come out "but he COULD crit me at 0 and kill me." i mean game and watch could 9 me at zero and kill me but thats almost never brught up. the devs knew what they were doing with hero hence why they gave him awful smashes he doesnt have mythra fsmash or something insane. he has bottom 5 smash attacks with up smash possibly being the worst in the game.
Practically speaking, we've seen that Hocus Pocus/Whack/Thwack tend to play a fairly small (almost negligent, perhaps comparable to G&W side-B) role in high and top level tournaments. I would say the most notable RNG factors are: Zoom, getting the right buffs at the right time (though Hero players will often fish for them), and Snooze (getting Snooze at the right time will fairly consistently net a kill around 30-40% thanks to fully charged side-B). Crit smashes play some role but Hero's smashes are meh in general. We should be thankful Olimar didn't get crit smashes.

i think sitting on this board and ridiculing the character's design only because someone FINALLY did well with the character in a stacked event is really in bad taste. especially when you watch the matches with hero he was mostly playing for buffs.
I don't know if there's much point in talking about which characters are poorly designed for competitive Smash since that's so many of them. At times it feels like the primary audience isn't people studying frame data and spending hours in training room but rather people playing game casually. ;)

I suppose there might be a few reasons to sit here and criticize characters that are poorly designed from a competitive point of view. One such reason could be to discourage people from playing them, ie adding stigma. There already is quite a bit of stigma towards characters like Sonic, Belmonts, and, yes, Hero. One issue with this is that pretty much every character is hated by someone, and character bashing can be harmful to the mains of those characters. The other reason is to help aspiring game designers to figure out what is and what isn't bad game design. Well... That seems like a somewhat unlikely scenario. In summary, it's probably best to avoid the topic of "Is this character poorly designed", since it's unlikely to be very productive. People might enjoy venting, but venting is probably better done elsewhere?
 

duxx

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don't report me its just a joke lol
I don't think anyone is saying this. Clearly, Hero still takes skill, and some random player is unlikely to take a set off a top player (a decent Hero main might take a game win vs someone who they normally wouldn't but winning a set is significantly harder). Practically speaking, Hero is probably the character where RNG matters the most, Peach probably being second (turnip pulls, Stitch face pulls can be huge, and other turnips are also significant). I think we can simultaneously acknowledge that Hero still takes skill while RNG also being quite notable in most matchups.
I mean, if you look at the youtube comments for any of his sets, there are always gonna be a ton of people complaining about how Hero's "the cheapest character in the game" and "the easiest character to cheese wins off top players with" or that aka is "carried by RNG" etc. Sure, it's a youtube comment section, but there are definitely people who look over his great grasp of the game's mechanics and all his character knowledge and just assume the only reason he's winning is because of his mid tier character, mind you and RNG
 

Diddy Kong

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Are the complaints about Hero really that unwarranted and unexpected if the most complained about character in Ultimate's lifespan was K.Rool at launch?

The RNG system is something to adapt to, I too admit my lack of matchup knowledge vs Hero has made for some cheesy kills I often thought weren't deserved, but there's really no excuse outside of not knowing the matchup.

But this goes for just about any character honestly.
 

Frihetsanka

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I mean, if you look at the youtube comments for any of his sets, there are always gonna be a ton of people complaining about how Hero's "the cheapest character in the game" and "the easiest character to cheese wins off top players with" or that aka is "carried by RNG" etc. Sure, it's a youtube comment section, but there are definitely people who look over his great grasp of the game's mechanics and all his character knowledge and just assume the only reason he's winning is because of his mid tier character, mind you and RNG
Well, I meant anyone here, YouTube and Twitter and such will almost always have strange comments etc etc.
 

Tri Knight

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Well, I meant anyone here, YouTube and Twitter and such will almost always have strange comments etc etc.
People tend to defend or overhype a character just as much as others ridicule or criticize them after they get a few wins. Where now his design is amazing and suddenly Hero's our savior from getting "vanilla" DLC characters. Or that he's the most OP, unfair character in the game and should be banned. Anyway, my personal opinion still stands.

Besides, who hasn't been the most OP character in the game at some point in Ultimate's lifespan at this point... besides Ganondorf..
 

SwagGuy99

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People tend to defend or overhype a character just as much as others ridicule or criticize them after they get a few wins. Where now his design is amazing and suddenly Hero's our savior from getting "vanilla" DLC characters. Or that he's the most OP, unfair character in the game and should be banned. Anyway, my personal opinion still stands.

Besides, who hasn't been the most OP character in the game at some point in Ultimate's lifespan at this point... besides Ganondorf..
If I recall correctly even Ganondorf was deemed good on Ultimate's arrival. And I know there's still at least a few good players who still think Ganon's a genuinely good character like Nicko.

If anything I think Little Mac has been the only character in Ultimate that has never really been regarded as good by any top player as far as I can remember. The only players who seem to have had any confidence in Mac in Ultimate are either low level players or Mac mains. Quite a few good Mac players seem to have a lot of confidence in his matchup spread and some of the most optimistic Mac mains don't even think he's a low tier (although usually they aren't nearly that optimistic).
 
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Diddy Kong

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If I recall correctly even Ganondorf was deemed good on Ultimate's arrival. And I know there's still at least a few good players who still think Ganon's a genuinely good character like Nicko.

If anything I think Little Mac has been the only character in Ultimate that has never really been regarded as good by any top player as far as I can remember. The only players who seem to have had any confidence in Mac in Ultimate are either low level players or Mac mains. Quite a few good Mac players seem to have a lot of confidence in his matchup spread and some of the most optimistic Mac mains don't even think he's a low tier (although usually they aren't nearly that optimistic).
Lol @ the Idea of Mac besting Fox, Falcon, Roy, Greninja and Ivysaur.

That's highly optimistic
 
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duxx

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don't report me its just a joke lol
If anything I think Little Mac has been the only character in Ultimate that has never really been regarded as good by any top player as far as I can remember. The only players who seem to have had any confidence in Mac in Ultimate are either low level players or Mac mains. Quite a few good Mac players seem to have a lot of confidence in his matchup spread and some of the most optimistic Mac mains don't even think he's a low tier (although usually they aren't nearly that optimistic).
that tier list you linked is pretty odd in some places, besides mac being THAT high; min min in low mid tier, rosa in borderline top, kirby in the same tier as lucas, puff and bayo in high tier, and zss outside of top 10, just to name a few
 

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stixie

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My problem with hero isn't his crit smash attacks that delete you at 20 for no reason (cz if you get hit by one of those you're either online or you messed up). My problem with hero are the INSANE over-tweeked menu specials. There is NO REASON kaboom should kill at 60 with a hitbox that big, bounce should completely nullify some characters, magic burst should completely nullify a crap ton of recoveries, zoom should have a higher spawn rate off the ledge, oomph and psyche up should instantly kill you by being hit with any move, thwack and whack... seriously?

THESE are my issues with this character. WHY are these moves so incredibly dumb?? Dying to some random kaboom that he topdecks at 60% is frustrating as it can be.

My other issue with this character is the fact he NEEDS move icons on the menu so everyone can see what he's about to do if you're playing someone from another language. Also the same for the Mii's when you queue into them (this post is not about the mii's but you should DEF know what moves you're playing against when you queue into one).


that tier list you linked is pretty odd in some places, besides mac being THAT high; min min in low mid tier, rosa in borderline top, kirby in the same tier as lucas, puff and bayo in high tier, and zss outside of top 10, just to name a few
Yeah that tier list is one of the worst I've ever seen. What in the world is that guy smoking LOLOL
 
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MrGameguycolor

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On the topic of optimistic :ultlittlemac: mains, I'd recommend this video:


While he makes a few decent points, many of them are just... No...

Especially when his main argument is just "Play well with :ultlittlemac:".
Like that can't be said for any other character...
 
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Wigglerman

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Mac is a concrete example of having insane strengths but equally insane weaknesses. On paper all his strengths seem incredible. Really good frame data, high damage, high knockback, armor on virtually all his smashes. A move that can, as it's name implies, KO a person at insanely low percents. He's fast on ground, can practically dance around an opponent. Bait their actions then punish them with a punch that'll sent em flying.

But then...he fundamentally falls apart when it comes to the other half of what makes Smash...well...Smash. His air game, his jumps and recovery options are abysmal. He can't play off stage at all as a wrong trade or mess up just loses a stock. If he gets edge camped he's pretty much done. He can be back throwed and poked right after at 0% and lose a stock. He has to respect an opponent in the air 85% of the time and just has to wait or bait. He's got few 'get off me' tools that won't get him punished.

His design is just broken in Smash. He's only allowed to play half the game while everyone else gets a proper full, functioning tool kit. Mac is genuinely fun to play, imo. I just hate he's sorta the 'Dan Hibiki' in that he is hampered by poor design for a huge portion of his kit.
 

Frihetsanka

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Tweek: Diddy Kong is top tier
Hungrybox: Diddy Kong is upper mid tier

Though he actually said Diddy Kong might push top high tier when offline is back. Personally I think he's top tier or high tier, one of the two, the character is really good. Diddy has amazing neutral, and guess what's really important in Ultimate? Neutral.

Seems he dropped Corrin from high tier to high-mid tier. Seems lot of people are losing faith in Corrin. Without Cosmos to play her and Ly being her strongest main the future does not seem great for Corrin's tournament presence, but perhaps Ly will make waves?

Banjo & Kazooie in upper mid tier without much explanation (oh, and I guess the video has a swear word). Bit odd that he wouldn't explain why Banjo would be that high?
 

SKX31

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Banjo & Kazooie in upper mid tier without much explanation (oh, and I guess the video has a swear word). Bit odd that he wouldn't explain why Banjo would be that high?
Not the first time he's done that - he did that back in the 9.0.1 Tier list too. He briefly explained in the 8.1 tier list (yeah, he swears like a sailor in this context) that he hates everything about fighting B-K as Puff. Sure it was not in-depth, but I can't imagine that the :ultjigglypuff: vs. :ultbanjokazooie: is fun for the Puff when B-K have all the incentive in the world to use as many eggs and Wonderwings as possibly and try to wall Puff out.
 
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Rizen

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:ultdiddy: is part of a class of characters I call 'Neutral Monsters' along with :ultyounglink::ultduckhunt::ultpacman::ultsheik:. They have amazing tools to control neutral better than everyone else but are balanced with poor kill power if they can't land smashes. These characters win neutral easily but have to win it much more than their opponents due to mediocre advantage states.

I used to think :ultpacman: was the best of them but after :ultyounglink:'s buffs I feel they're about even. Pac has projectiles that combo into smashes, which is why he's so successful. Without smashes he'd be bouncing opponents around to almost 170%.
:ultdiddy: specifically is a very good high tier imo although I do think Pac and YL have slightly stronger tools.
 
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Tri Knight

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:ultdiddy: is part of a class of characters I call 'Neutral Monsters' along with :ultyounglink::ultduckhunt::ultpacman::ultsheik:. They have amazing tools to control neutral better than everyone else but are balanced with poor kill power if they can't land smashes. These characters win neutral easily but have to win it much more than their opponents due to mediocre advantage states.

I used to think :ultpacman: was the best of them but after :ultyounglink:'s buffs I feel they're about even. Pac has projectiles that combo into smashes, which is why he's so successful. Without smashes he'd be bouncing opponents around to almost 170%.
:ultdiddy: specifically is a very good high tier imo although I do think Pac and YL have slightly stronger tools.
Yeah I put them around the same area myself. And they all seem to work towards similar goals too, where they're either hyper defensive or hyper aggressive and quickly switch in and out as needed. It's the main reason why, as you said, they're neutral monsters.

I do think Young Link is definitely the best of those you listed. But I also think that YL's sitting at the top of high tier poking at the bottom of the top tier wall with his sword too.
 

DougEfresh

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Not the first time he's done that - he did that back in the 9.0.1 Tier list too. He briefly explained in the 8.1 tier list (yeah, he swears like a sailor in this context) that he hates everything about fighting B-K as Puff. Sure it was not in-depth, but I can't imagine that the :ultjigglypuff: vs. :ultbanjokazooie: is fun for the Puff when B-K have all the incentive in the world to use as many eggs and Wonderwings as possibly and try to wall Puff out.
You're pretty much on point with the general state of the Puff/Banjo MU: while it's not unwinnable for her (her air drift is annoying as hell for Banjo to deal with, and she does have a pretty devastating punish game if the player is good), it's one of the very few B-K MUs that hard camping/projectile walling is legitimately the optimal game plan (many other characters where that strategy sounds good in theory like Shotos has significant downsides in practice that outweigh the pro's, at least with overreliance on camping). Just wait for Puff to drift toward you, stuff her out with projectiles and disjoints, as well as wonderwings if you have'em. All in all a very boring MU for both sides because it's a lot of waiting and punishing the other's mistakes as hard as possible (and granted, I like playing :ultbanjokazooie: pretty aggressively, especially compared to the stigmatized campy playstyle people associate with him).

That being said, I can definitely understand Hbox's aggravation toward the character, but it's disappointing to see him still acting like a salty man-child about it (pro players especially should generally have a much better attitude about characters and different playstyles even if they don't like them imo). Banjo's projectile game is fairly high commitment in terms of frames compared to traditional zoners, and Puff's air drift is definitely capable of exploiting the holes in his walling ability. Maybe he just needs more MU experience and he'll cool off about it once he knows what to do.
 

StrangeKitten

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Hmm... I guess B&K makes sense to be in this tier, as most of the characters here have a similar amount of flaws. Diddy this low is the bigger head scratcher, imo.
 

Diddy Kong

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Hmm... I guess B&K makes sense to be in this tier, as most of the characters here have a similar amount of flaws. Diddy this low is the bigger head scratcher, imo.
It's really not, especially if stated that when offline is back, Diddy is about the top of high tier. Which is where I estimate him about to be too.

Tho, Tweek is also making him work online, and that's no small feat! Diddy is notoriously worse online, because he requires momentum and precision; Tweek goes as far and state he's THE most technical character in the game. I agree with it fully.

Diddy will definitely rise when offline fully returns. I expect Tweek to take him to the next level, and absolutely astonish people when he does. Can't wait to see Tweek's Diddy rise to his full potential!
 

WatwatBreton

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Re: mac, am not a mac expert by any mean (I mess around with the char sometime coz he's kinda fun lol) but I feel like that sort of design could work? Like his recovery has juuust enough mixups (counter, side b, walljump sometime) that you can make it back some of the time, his landing is decent (fast faller + small frame) and you could make his aerial game situationally good. Like add a few hitboxes there and there so that you can send characters on platform into techchase or have more opportunity to use your f2 nair as a combo breaker or sth.
If anything I find the character a bit undertuned on the ground lol. Like compared to roy, an other character with a questionable recovery but who makes up for it by killing you randomly at 50 and having the best dtilt in the game, mac feels surprisingly honest. Except KO punch, I'm not sure I like that part of his design much XD.

He'll always face issues of a) needing to be balanced in FFA for ur little cousin Timmy b) stage list being not great for him in this game (but it's getting better with sbf and nc at least!) and c) KO punch probably taking a significant part of his power budget, but I don't feel like the character is as doomed to be either terrible or obnoxious as, let's say, DK.
 

Hydreigonfan01

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When offline comes back Sparg0 might switch to Pyra/Mythra as a main.
 
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SKX31

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When offline comes back Sparg0 is switching to Pyra/Mythra as a main.
I'm gonna say "Hold your horses!" on that one - while the tweet implies that he's seriously considering it, he's also considered picking up :ultsteve: in the past. The wording doesn't seem like a final "Yes, I will main the duo" either.

But, time will tell. I wouldn't be surprised if he actually did that, but still.
 
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TheMightyP

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Hero main here. Please stop saying Magic Burst is a good move, it's actual ass and only has one use that doesn't do anything if you can stall it out or smack it with a projectile.

Also, on the RNG discussion, RNG isn't as big as a factor as it would seem. While menu is a big component to him, keep in mind his regular toolset is absurdly powerful in it's own right, and Crits aren't important to his kit at all when all his Smash attacks kill at like 60% or above. He's still fast compared to the rest of the cast (he's right behind Sephiroth in terms of run speed), he still has massive disjoints to wall out opponents (Zap is better than some characters lol). Keep in mind that Menu is also locked behind MP as well, so he has to use his normals in order to actually use it, so most of the time he's not gonna rely menu 24/7.

His main gameplan is walling you out and then camping you with his buffs. If you can't get in to interrupt that, then I'm sorry, but your character loses to him, good game design or not. And trust me, you would hate it if his menu wasn't RNG. Imagine getting gauranteed spells, he would be top 1 if that happened because fishing for spells wouldn't even be an issue anymore.

Also, any Hero who topdecks isn't good. It's not viable at all.
 

Sucumbio

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And trust me, you would hate it if his menu wasn't RNG. Imagine getting gauranteed spells, he would be top 1 if that happened because fishing for spells wouldn't even be an issue anymore.
This.

Been thinking this since the debate resurfaced.... Just imagine how insanely op he'd be without rng making it harder. He'd buff at the outset then camp or spam thwack...
 
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Thinkaman

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First, Kalos -> Crater and PS2 -> SBF would be a bigger shift in Mac's performance than anything else that could be discussed.


Second, weaker characters are played by fewer players and even fewer top players; everyone accepts this general trend. However, as a high-precision character, Mac is hit by this disproportionately. Mac demands a ton of work, and the few people willing to put in that amount wisely invest their time in superior (and less volatile) characters.
Reasonably optimized Little Mac probably beats/has superior matchups to reasonably optimized :ultkrool::ultjigglypuff::ultganondorf::ultkirby: ect. I wouldn't be surprised if he wasn't bottom 10 if all characters were given comperable representation/development, even on existing stage lists. However, this is a tree-falls-in-the-woods scenario, as no one has any reason to push the character so hard.

Even if Mac were buffed to be indisputably high-tier (which would not be hard), he would still be doomed to be underplayed because like Lucario, he's a super-volatile character and we play tournament formats more sensitive to your worse sets rather than your best.


Third, if y'all are gonna beat a dead horse then I am too: Stop listing univeral traits of a character and acting like it's insight. We get it, Mac has bad disadvantage. Oh, but his ground game is good? You don't say! This some October 2014 level analysis.

We could hold a contest for accurate guess to how many banal "Mac-is-good-on-the-ground-but-bad-in-the-air" smashboards posts have been made in the history of this thread and its predecessors, but that would require someone having to read them all which probably violates the Geneva convention.


Fourth, I'll repeat my one Christmas wish for Mac: increased armor on Straight Lunge, just like Bowser Jr. and King K. Rool got on their specials. Do you know how fun it is to armor Mythra's entire moveset? You let Mac do that against every abusive juggler, and you'll see the calculus start to change pretty quick.
 

The_Bookworm

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First, Kalos -> Crater and PS2 -> SBF would be a bigger shift in Mac's performance than anything else that could be discussed.


Second, weaker characters are played by fewer players and even fewer top players; everyone accepts this general trend. However, as a high-precision character, Mac is hit by this disproportionately. Mac demands a ton of work, and the few people willing to put in that amount wisely invest their time in superior (and less volatile) characters.
Reasonably optimized Little Mac probably beats/has superior matchups to reasonably optimized :ultkrool::ultjigglypuff::ultganondorf::ultkirby: ect. I wouldn't be surprised if he wasn't bottom 10 if all characters were given comperable representation/development, even on existing stage lists. However, this is a tree-falls-in-the-woods scenario, as no one has any reason to push the character so hard.

Even if Mac were buffed to be indisputably high-tier (which would not be hard), he would still be doomed to be underplayed because like Lucario, he's a super-volatile character and we play tournament formats more sensitive to your worse sets rather than your best.


Third, if y'all are gonna beat a dead horse then I am too: Stop listing univeral traits of a character and acting like it's insight. We get it, Mac has bad disadvantage. Oh, but his ground game is good? You don't say! This some October 2014 level analysis.

We could hold a contest for accurate guess to how many banal "Mac-is-good-on-the-ground-but-bad-in-the-air" smashboards posts have been made in the history of this thread and its predecessors, but that would require someone having to read them all which probably violates the Geneva convention.


Fourth, I'll repeat my one Christmas wish for Mac: increased armor on Straight Lunge, just like Bowser Jr. and King K. Rool got on their specials. Do you know how fun it is to armor Mythra's entire moveset? You let Mac do that against every abusive juggler, and you'll see the calculus start to change pretty quick.
Sorry if this is off-topic with Mac, but since rulesets are brought up....

I think that is another indirect thing that harms :ultlucario: in comparison to :4lucario:.
In the case of :lucario::ultlucario:, both of these iterations have to deal with a 3-stock ruleset. :4lucario: only had to deal with a 2-stock ruleset.

Do to the way aura stacks, I believe it is easier to get to uncontrollable levels of aura in a 2-stock ruleset and make a comeback out it.
In the rare case that you get Lucario to his last stock in high percents, while you are still in low percents on your 3rd stock, you would probably get a higher level of aura than in a 2-stock game.
Sounds good, right? Well.... no. Even if you get a janky low percent KO with Lucario, you now need to do that two more times as opposed to one more time, with a character with rather lacking mobility and frame data, in a game where neutral game is very important (at least moreso than in Ultimate).

In other words, imagine a world where SSB4 Lucario had to deal with a 3-stock ruleset in comparison to a 2-stock one. He is already an extremely inconsistent and high maintenance character, so making his ability to make a comeback artificially worse will hurt quite a bit.
He LOVES that SSB4 ended up with a 2-stock ruleset, something Ultimate Lucario sorely missed.

With Ultimate Lucario, he returns to a 3-stock ruleset, and while he loves his significantly improved air mobility, he also hates that his endurance is now much worse than his SSB4, especially Brawl, iterations, while he also took a big blow to his grab game in the process.
 

Frihetsanka

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Speaking of Hero, online tournament with Nair^ from Mexico vs Maister:

I timestamped the beginning of the second game since the first game disconnected for the spectators. His menu usage is not nearly as Akakikusu's but he's still making it work. I wonder if he's going to keep using Hero? I thought Hero was a joke in regards to Pyra/Mythra but he's done well with Hero for a while now, so who knows, maybe it's a serious character of his?
 

Ziodyne 21

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Speaking of Hero, online tournament with Nair^ from Mexico vs Maister:

I timestamped the beginning of the second game since the first game disconnected for the spectators. His menu usage is not nearly as Akakikusu's but he's still making it work. I wonder if he's going to keep using Hero? I thought Hero was a joke in regards to Pyra/Mythra but he's done well with Hero for a while now, so who knows, maybe it's a serious character of his?
Nair^ like Akakiksu make use out of Command Menu list to condition Maister, keeping him on the defensive and afraid to really start anything once he was in danger of losing stocks to Hero's RNG jank (Which as G&W will bfvery early)

Nair^ used bounce to keep Maister from using f-air and Maslister seem really afraid once Nair^ got Psyche up going. Maister seemed pretty spooked and got overly shield and dodge roll happy . Leading to Sheild Breaks from Hero's normally pretty slow moves like dash attack


Of course there was RNG jank at play like Nair^ getting. That Thwack Game 3
 
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Rocketjay8

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Also, any Hero who topdecks isn't good. It's not viable at all.
Ok, I am not even a hero main, but once I learned what topdecking was, I knew that this strategy was unviable. Why in the world would you use this strategy? It does shave frames from the commital command menu, but you're at the risk of getting a Kamikaze, Kaclang,or Hocus Pocus. Even if you don't get that, it still leaves you with a chance of getting a slashing spell when your opponent is far away, or Magic Burst at the worst possible time.
 
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RonNewcomb

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Nov 29, 2014
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what topdecking was
From context I assume this is casting the first spell in the list blindly, so neither player knows what's going to happen. Since most of his spells attack in the same two locations, the frames saved make it almost unreactable.

But only almost, and some spells would do more harm than good, and cost MP...
 

Nobie

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I could see an argument for Mac going even or possibly even beating Fox on the right stage. Fox has so many strengths, but his offstage edgeguarding is limited, and he's dealing with a character who out-neutrals him on the ground with superior frame data, comparable movement speed, and better KO power. On the other hand, Mac is trivial to juggle, and it's not like he's going for deep edgeguards himself.

But then, if there aren't platforms to circle camp with, Fox has to fight in Mac's ideal range, and Fox is not a fan of the character's sheer volatility. Armored f-tilt alone seems terrifying.
 

blackghost

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Jul 9, 2015
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And trust me, you would hate it if his menu wasn't RNG. Imagine getting gauranteed spells, he would be top 1 if that happened because fishing for spells wouldn't even be an issue anymore.

Also, any Hero who topdecks isn't good. It's not viable at all.
this made me laugh, then consider how true it is. idk top one but if hero worked on a pattern he'd be an even slower-paced character and he'd be very formulaic. You'd run. grab buffs, then engage, and repeat. essentially creating lil mac game state which people already hate.

people that complain about magic burst must HATE it that snake, palutena, or diddy get a better move every time they presses side b.

Of course there was RNG jank at play like Nair^ getting. That Thwack Game 3
instead of talking about that why not talk about the downright awful role maister did? theres no reason to ghet hit with that wack. thats what i mean when it comes to hero matches. all other mistakes and misplays by heros opponent get ignored and it always is treated like "well hero ts RNG."
also considering all the other charge-up projectiles in the game and game and watch weight he deserves to die there regardless. if he didnt id say that really is way more unfair to hero than anything else.
 
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