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Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

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  • Total voters
    565

SKX31

Smash Master
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Feb 22, 2019
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Yaaaas a :ultbanjokazooie: rep!
I've got some bad news, and some good news (man what a rollercoaster this was). The bad news:

Wolfen (the B-K main) first got knocked down to Losers by Sonix (and really, Sonix was a step ahead the whole time). In Loser 9ths, he matched up against Mtkat and got off to an early 2-0 game lead... only for Mtkat to come back. Not even a switch to Sephiroth could stop Mtkat's momentum, and that was it for Wolfen in the main qualifier.

So, (and here's where the good news are) Last Chance Qualifier. Wolfen managed to get to Winner's Final. One set more and he's qualified. There he meets up against Yei, who... swept him. Game 2 and 3 weren't that close, 2 stocks. So Wolfen's now in Loser's Finals against 0mart's Snake. One more shot. Game 1 doesn't go well, but Wolfen manages to stabilize himself over game 2 and 3 - although game 3 was close, last stock 100 % territory. 2-1 lead, one more game and he's in. Game 4 stats and Wolfen takes a commanding lead, 3-1 stocks. 0mart tries to make it competitive, but... Wolfen closes it out.

Wolfen's made it. As one of LCQ's Top 2. Sure, Yei beats him again for the seeding - 3-1, but the main point stands. The B-K main qualified, in a kinda poetic manner too.

So, the 16 players who qualified for the Central American Regional:


🇲🇽 :

1st: Sparg0 :ultcloud:
2nd: MkLeo:ultpyra::ultbyleth:
3rd: Maister:ultgnw:
4th: Chag:ultpalutena:
5th: AlanDiss:ultsnake:
6th: Nair^:ultridley::ultcloud::ulthero2::ultdarksamus:
7th: Andrik:ultfalcon:
8th: Cloudy:ultpyra:

Central America South:

1st: Capitancito :ultgunner: 🇩🇴
2nd: ShinyMark :ultpikachu: 🇬🇹
3rd: Sonix :ultsonic: 🇩🇴
4th: Echofire :ultness: 🇭🇳
5th: Mtkat :ultpalutena: 🇨🇷
6th: Tuitt :ultrobin: 🇵🇷
7th: Yei :ultpalutena: :ultmetaknight: 🇨🇷
8th: Wolfen :ultbanjokazooie: 🇸🇻

The Regional will be August 21st-22nd, in house and presumably in Mexico (going by the Regional's organizer being Smash Factor, which helped organize Mexico's online qualifier and other Mexican events).

Next week will be the South American Online qualifiers. Same format as the Oceania qualifiers the week before this one: The top 12 in the main qualifier goes through to the South America regional + 4 from the LCQ. South America has one spot in the Global Finals, which goes to the one who wins the Regional. I don't know much about South American players, honestly, but I'm curious to see what this region looks like.
 
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The_Bookworm

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 10, 2018
Messages
2,820
Something completely unrelated to Ultimate, but today, Melee has finally a new official tier list, after over 5 years.

This is the first one to not be made by SmashBoards, but instead by made by PGStats. The way this was made was that it is based on the tier lists of 63 2019 MPGR-ranked players + Armada. The math was done by PracticalTAS.

For reference, here is tier list #12 vs the new tier list #13.

12th Official Tier List (December 10th, 2015)
SS: :foxmelee:
S: :falcomelee::marthmelee::sheikmelee:
A: :jigglypuffmelee::peachmelee:
B: :icsmelee::falconmelee:
C: :pikachumelee::samusmelee:
D: :drmario::yoshimelee::luigimelee:
E: :ganondorfmelee::mariomelee::younglinkmelee::dkmelee::linkmelee:
F: :gawmelee::roymelee::mewtwomelee::zeldamelee::nessmelee:
G: :pichumelee::bowsermelee::kirbymelee:

Top (SS-S); High (A-B); High Mid (C); Middle (D); Low Mid (E); Low (F); Bottom (G)


13th Official Tier List (March 29th, 2021)
S: :foxmelee::marthmelee::jigglypuffmelee::falcomelee:
A: :sheikmelee::falconmelee::peachmelee:
B+: :icsmelee::pikachumelee::yoshimelee::samusmelee:
B-: :luigimelee::drmario:
C+: :ganondorfmelee::mariomelee:
C-: :dkmelee::younglinkmelee::linkmelee::gawmelee:
D: :mewtwomelee::roymelee::pichumelee::nessmelee::zeldamelee:
F: :kirbymelee::bowsermelee:

:foxmelee: 0; :marthmelee: +1; :jigglypuffmelee: +2; :falcomelee: -2; :sheikmelee: -1; :falconmelee: +2; :peachmelee: -1;
:icsmelee: -1; :pikachumelee: 0; :yoshimelee: +2; :samusmelee: -1; :luigimelee: +1; :drmario: -2;
:ganondorfmelee: 0; :mariomelee: 0; :dkmelee: +1; :younglinkmelee: -1; :linkmelee: 0; :gawmelee: 0;
:mewtwomelee: +1; :roymelee: -1; :pichumelee: +2; :nessmelee: 0; :zeldamelee: -2; :kirbymelee: +1; :bowsermelee: -1

Definitely more accurate to the current meta.
I honestly agree with almost everything on this list, including where they divided the + and - tiers. The only thing I would change is Ness > Pichu, but that is very minor all things considering.
There are some notable things to note:
  1. Bowser is now the new worst character in Melee, although Kirby is also in purgatory with him.
  2. Pichu is now ranked higher than four different characters. Character is still terrible, but considering he is the joke character, the character intentionally designed to be bad, I find this to be quite hilarious.
  3. Falco falling to #4 is fairly notable. He hasn't been ranked at #4 since October 2009, the 9th official tier list, where it was Fox > Marth > Sheik > Falco on that list. This time it is Fox > Marth > Puff > Falco.
  4. For the first time in her competitive career, Melee Sheik is no longer at the top 4, now being overtaken by Jigglypuff.

Obviously not relevant to Ultimate, but considering that has been over 5 years since the last official tier list for Melee, and we haven't gotten a new official tier list for a modern Smash game since the one made for SSB4 at December 11th, 2017 (which I am still salty that it never got updated in 2018), I find this to be very fascinating to share to this thread.

Edit: Turns out, the survey conducted for this list was done before Wobbling got banned, so the ICs placement is actually inaccurate to the current meta. Looking at it again, I think they might be placed too high.
 
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Tri Knight

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 10, 2015
Messages
783
Something completely unrelated to Ultimate, but today, Melee has finally a new official tier list, after over 5 years.

This is the first one to not be made by SmashBoards, but instead by made by PGStats. The way this was made was that it is based on the tier lists of 63 2019 MPGR-ranked players + Armada. The math was done by PracticalTAS.

For reference, here is tier list #12 vs the new tier list #13.

12th Official Tier List (December 10th, 2015)
SS: :foxmelee:
S: :falcomelee::marthmelee::sheikmelee:
A: :jigglypuffmelee::peachmelee:
B: :icsmelee::falconmelee:
C: :pikachumelee::samusmelee:
D: :drmario::yoshimelee::luigimelee:
E: :ganondorfmelee::mariomelee::younglinkmelee::dkmelee::linkmelee:
F: :gawmelee::roymelee::mewtwomelee::zeldamelee::nessmelee:
G: :pichumelee::bowsermelee::kirbymelee:

Top (SS-S); High (A-B); High Mid (C); Middle (D); Low Mid (E); Low (F); Bottom (G)


13th Official Tier List (March 29th, 2021)
S: :foxmelee::marthmelee::jigglypuffmelee::falcomelee:
A: :sheikmelee::falconmelee::peachmelee:
B+: :icsmelee::pikachumelee::yoshimelee::samusmelee:
B-: :luigimelee::drmario:
C+: :ganondorfmelee::mariomelee:
C-: :dkmelee::younglinkmelee::linkmelee::gawmelee:
D: :mewtwomelee::roymelee::pichumelee::nessmelee::zeldamelee:
F: :kirbymelee::bowsermelee:

:foxmelee: 0; :marthmelee: +1; :jigglypuffmelee: +2; :falcomelee: -2; :sheikmelee: -1; :falconmelee: +2; :peachmelee: -1;
:icsmelee: -1; :pikachumelee: 0; :yoshimelee: +2; :samusmelee: -1; :luigimelee: +1; :drmario: -2;
:ganondorfmelee: 0; :mariomelee: 0; :dkmelee: +1; :younglinkmelee: -1; :linkmelee: 0; :gawmelee: 0;
:mewtwomelee: +1; :roymelee: -1; :pichumelee: +2; :nessmelee: 0; :zeldamelee: -2; :kirbymelee: +1; :bowsermelee: -1

Definitely more accurate to the current meta.
I honestly agree with almost everything on this list, including where they divided the + and - tiers. The only thing I would change is Ness > Pichu, but that is very minor all things considering.
There are some notable things to note:
  1. Bowser is now the new worst character in Melee, although Kirby is also in purgatory with him.
  2. Pichu is now ranked higher than four different characters. Character is still terrible, but considering he is the joke character, the character intentionally designed to be bad, I find this to be quite hilarious.
  3. Falco falling to #4 is fairly notable. He hasn't been ranked at #4 since October 2009, the 9th official tier list, where it was Fox > Marth > Sheik > Falco on that list. This time it is Fox > Marth > Puff > Falco.
  4. For the first time in her competitive career, Melee Sheik is no longer at the top 4, now being overtaken by Jigglypuff.

Obviously not relevant to Ultimate, but considering that has been over 5 years since the last official tier list for Melee, and we haven't gotten a new official tier list for a modern Smash game since the one made for SSB4 at December 11th, 2017 (which I am still salty that it never got updated in 2018), I find this to be very fascinating to share to this thread.
Come to think of it, has the boards ever at least attempted a tier list for Ultimate?
 
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The_Bookworm

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 10, 2018
Messages
2,820
Come to think of it, has the boards ever at least attempted a tier list for Ultimate?
No, especially considering what happened with SSB4's first official tier list.
SSB4's first official tier list was released on February 1st, 2016, which was literally two days before :4corrin::4bayonetta: was released alongside patch 1.1.4.
For the second one, they thankfully waited until long after the patch cycle was over. The 2nd one was released at August 21st, 2016, which is about three months after patch 1.1.6 hit, which was May 20th, 2016.

With such a large roster and the patch cycle still continuing, as well as most regions (NA, Europe, etc.) spending over a year in an online meta, I don't we will see an official tier list with Ultimate anytime soon.
 

Thinkaman

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Thinkaman
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There is no "they." For Melee, Brawl, and Smash 4, a Smashboards "Back Room" served as a governing body responsible for rulesets, tier lists, and other resources.

No such body exists for Ultimate, for a variety of reasons. Most of that cultural authority pertaining to policies has transitioned to major TOs, and most of that content like tier lists has transitioned to both content creators and more widely democratic efforts on social media channels.
 

Frihetsanka

Smash Lord
Joined
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Messages
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Location
Sweden
There is no "they." For Melee, Brawl, and Smash 4, a Smashboards "Back Room" served as a governing body responsible for rulesets, tier lists, and other resources.

No such body exists for Ultimate, for a variety of reasons. Most of that cultural authority pertaining to policies has transitioned to major TOs, and most of that content like tier lists has transitioned to both content creators and more widely democratic efforts on social media channels.
Honestly, I suspected as much. Perhaps PGStats will make a Smash Ultimate tier list one day, though it's probably good to at least wait until all DLC characters have been released, and then a bit further so people get to try the final DLC characters. So probably not until 2022 at the earliest, until they we have a variety of top player tier lists, community tier lists, etc etc.
 

Wigglerman

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Thing is, even in 2022 the first batch of major tier lists that might have actual merit to them will be outdated in a matter of months after release. Ultimate's roster is so darn massive and the potential of most characters still not even close to being properly brought forth and the degree of learning counter match ups and so on...it's going to take forever for a concrete 'definitive' tier list. I sorta look forward to watching the shift in perception of each character over the span of this game's life span and beyond.
 

Frihetsanka

Smash Lord
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I did say "at the earliest". The first tier list will for sure be quite a bit inaccurate, but that always seems to be the case with Smash tier lists. Like early Brawl tier lists had Kirby in top 15 for a few years. Melee took like 8 years to get Jigglypuff in top 5, etc etc. And those are games with far fewer characters and without patches! Any tier list in the next few years is likely to at least have some inaccuracies. Whether they do more harm than good or not can be discussed, but they are interesting at least. Anyway, 2022 at the earliest.
 

Frihetsanka

Smash Lord
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Messages
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New OrionStats!


Obviously very few events, but some notable things: Shulk #1, I guess we can finally lay the whole "Shulk doesn't have enough results to be top tier" to rest? Or not, since it's a limited amount of events... But still good news for Shulk! Also good news for Sheik. I've believed in the character for a while now and it's interesting to see that she's getting some results. Hero at #7 is also very interesting, and he would've been even higher if Akakikusu hadn't lost game 5 vs Tea.

Bowser at #13 is interesting, Sephiroth at #20 is also interesting (he'll probably be higher than that once Tweek starts competing offline again). Captain Falcon #21, quite interesting. Toon Link also #21, I suspect it has more to do with Japan having strong Toon Link players than the character in general.

The limited amount of events is an issue and is going to greatly limit how much we can use these results, but it's fun to see more results again. Pikachu near the bottom is very interesting as well, Lucina too.

But yeah, the limited amount of events greatly limits the use of this, and it also showcases why results alone should not be the basis of tier lists. Based on this Pikachu and Lucina would be low tiers!

(Had to wait 24 hours to post this as per the forum rules, not a great sign for the state of the forum that no one has posted in the most active competitive thread for 24 hours :005:. Perhaps this will spark some discussions)
 

sleepy_Nex

Smash Journeyman
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Nov 25, 2014
Messages
209
It's basically mostly Japan meta. Which is interesting neverthless. Bowser has strong reps in Japan with Hero and Lunamado. Hero i heard attended only locals offline prior to the stacked japan tournament some time ago. Lunamado does attend though. I also believe they have some lesser known Bowsers.

Hero btw got a nice 13th finish in the stacked japan tournament(yes i'm constantly forgetting whats it called) losing to tea and the player that kicked out abadango. He beat Ken 3:0 in losers for his run. I think we can safely assume that Hero is currently the best Bowser followed by darkthunder in eu and leon.
 

Frihetsanka

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I think we can safely assume that Hero is currently the best Bowser followed by darkthunder in eu and leon.
LeoN was 28th on the Fall 2019 PGR, and has multiple good placings and top player wins over the years. According to Smash Wiki (which might not be updated), HERO have three tournament placings: 17th out of 512 in an online tournament, 1st out of 8 o a Nintendo tournament that inlcuded strange stages, and the only one really relevant, 13th at Kagaribi 3, with 5 wins and 2 losses, with a very notable win on KEN. LeoN's run at Shine 2019 is probably stronger, 9th out of 882, with wins against players like Jw, Suarez, and Leffen, losing to Dabuz and Nairo.

Perhaps HERO will one day prove to be the best Bowser, but so far LeoN has the better results.
 

Rizen

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New OrionStats!


Obviously very few events, but some notable things: Shulk #1, I guess we can finally lay the whole "Shulk doesn't have enough results to be top tier" to rest? Or not, since it's a limited amount of events... But still good news for Shulk! Also good news for Sheik. I've believed in the character for a while now and it's interesting to see that she's getting some results. Hero at #7 is also very interesting, and he would've been even higher if Akakikusu hadn't lost game 5 vs Tea.

Bowser at #13 is interesting, Sephiroth at #20 is also interesting (he'll probably be higher than that once Tweek starts competing offline again). Captain Falcon #21, quite interesting. Toon Link also #21, I suspect it has more to do with Japan having strong Toon Link players than the character in general.

The limited amount of events is an issue and is going to greatly limit how much we can use these results, but it's fun to see more results again. Pikachu near the bottom is very interesting as well, Lucina too.

But yeah, the limited amount of events greatly limits the use of this, and it also showcases why results alone should not be the basis of tier lists. Based on this Pikachu and Lucina would be low tiers!

(Had to wait 24 hours to post this as per the forum rules, not a great sign for the state of the forum that no one has posted in the most active competitive thread for 24 hours :005:. Perhaps this will spark some discussions)
It's nice to have some results but I agree this isn't anywhere near enough to draw any conclusions except who's strong in Japan as almost all the slightly large tourneys were from there. Assuming the Kanto is the one in Japan. Even then it's lacking. Still it's interesting to see how their meta's developing.
What japanese players use Sheik? I've seen some of their tourneys on VGBootcamp's youtube and never see her do anything.
 

sleepy_Nex

Smash Journeyman
Joined
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Messages
209
LeoN was 28th on the Fall 2019 PGR, and has multiple good placings and top player wins over the years. According to Smash Wiki (which might not be updated), HERO have three tournament placings: 17th out of 512 in an online tournament, 1st out of 8 o a Nintendo tournament that inlcuded strange stages, and the only one really relevant, 13th at Kagaribi 3, with 5 wins and 2 losses, with a very notable win on KEN. LeoN's run at Shine 2019 is probably stronger, 9th out of 882, with wins against players like Jw, Suarez, and Leffen, losing to Dabuz and Nairo.

Perhaps HERO will one day prove to be the best Bowser, but so far LeoN has the better results.
Then i'll settle on Online Bowser for now. He has over 40 tamisuma wins. There are also people like Ken and protobanhan attending from time to time.
 
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Das Koopa

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Sheik's data largely is supplied by Kameme, Sylph, Eim, and Shachi. Kameme has leaned in more on Sheik and Eim began maining her recently at smaller Tokyo events after slumping/struggling with Joker for a while.

It's not shocking she's high. If Mr. R and VoiD return to maining her or using her frequently she'll likely be a mainstay in the top 20-30.
 

Frihetsanka

Smash Lord
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Messages
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It's not shocking she's high. If Mr. R and VoiD return to maining her or using her frequently she'll likely be a mainstay in the top 20-30.
I have been thinking for a while that Sheik is underrated. She has amazing neutral in a game where neutral is very important. She also has one of the best disadvantage states in the game. She might be high tier.

Granted, in Smash 4 she was easily top 4, so in comparison she looks much worse, but overall she seems to be a fairly good character, with the potential to be high tier.
 

StrangeKitten

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Shulk had very solid results prior to lockdown. I researched a couple of the best Shulks and they made top 8 quite often and, failing that, top 16, usually. I was somewhat surprised to see Shulk do so well consistently because, while he is certainly top tier, he's very technical. And now I'm not surprised to see Shulk at #1 in Japan! Great to see PT at #2 as well. I hope Atelier's performance at Kagaribi 3 will quell the doubt people have about the character's top tier status.

I have been thinking for a while that Sheik is underrated. She has amazing neutral in a game where neutral is very important. She also has one of the best disadvantage states in the game. She might be high tier.
I think she's one of the better high tiers! Brutally difficult to play, but an absolute force when played well. She has one of, if not the best neutral in the entire game thanks to crazy fast frame data, being thin and low profiling a lot, Needles being an absurdly good tool, and kill confirms. I also agree that her disadvantage state is among the best. We're talking a tiny, super-fast character whose recovery just isn't really edgeguardable. Eim struggled to kill as Sheik a lot in his recent sets, but VoiD and Sharp don't have nearly as much of a problem with killing. Definitely a character to keep an eye on!
 

Hippieslayer

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How good is Pacman? Top tier? How good is Tea? Surely top 10 player?

And how good is Gunner? And how good is Capitancito who notably prefers charge shot over grenade launcher?
 

The_Bookworm

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Messages
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New OrionStats!

I am personally not really going to lean too far forward when it comes to these stats.
It is pretty much just the limited offline Japan results we have, and it can very well change significantly in the future. Most of the offline Japan events we do have are all regionals as well.
All it really tells us is the current condition of the Japanese meta and really not much more aside from that.

I am surprised that Duck Hunt lacks any points. Has Raito competed much lately?
I also find it funny that Marth managed to somehow get more points than Lucina.
 

Ziodyne 21

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Messages
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Sheik's data largely is supplied by Kameme, Sylph, Eim, and Shachi. Kameme has leaned in more on Sheik and Eim began maining her recently at smaller Tokyo events after slumping/struggling with Joker for a while.

It's not shocking she's high. If Mr. R and VoiD return to maining her or using her frequently she'll likely be a mainstay in the top 20-30.

It looks like VoiD is pretty set on maining Pyra/Mythra once offline competions start again but may not competely drop Shiek. From what I see Sheik seems to be used as a secondary or counterpick by quite a few notable players such as Kameme and Sharp
 

Frihetsanka

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How good is Pacman? Top tier? How good is Tea? Surely top 10 player?
Tea got 12th on the Fall 2012 PGR. It's quite plausible that he'll be able to get top 10 on the next one, whenever that will launch (my guess would be Spring 2022, unless vaccination works significantly better). As for Pac-Man, one could make a fairly strong case that Pac-Man is largely carried by Tea and Sinji and that he's actually "just" a high tier character. Others think he's top tier. Tea's results seem a bit too consistent for mid tier, Pac-Man is probably at least high tier (and currently I would say high tier, aside from Tea's results I don't see much reason for believing that Pac-Man is top tier).

And how good is Gunner? And how good is Capitancito who notably prefers charge shot over grenade launcher?
How good Gunner is remains to be seen. The character is noticeably decent online, but one could make the case that the character benefits from MU unfamiliarity and online. Until we get some notable offline results I'd be reluctant to put Gunner very high on my tier lists.

I am personally not really going to lean too far forward when it comes to these stats.
It is pretty much just the limited offline Japan results we have, and it can very well change significantly in the future. Most of the offline Japan events we do have are all regionals as well.
All it really tells us is the current condition of the Japanese meta and really not much more aside from that.
Japan is, arguably, the strongest Smash country in the world (it's either Japan or the US), so even then that's quite noteworthy. But obviously the data is fairly limited, yeah.

I am surprised that Duck Hunt lacks any points. Has Raito competed much lately?
I also find it funny that Marth managed to somehow get more points than Lucina.
Raito got 33rd at Kagaribi 3. As for Lucina, it seems to me that she's fallen off quite a bit, and players either not doing as well or finding other characters to play (like ProtoBanham, who also plays Min Min now). Even then she's clearly at least high tier. I think she's a bit too vanilla and not overtuned enough to be top tier, and her current results back me up. I think she's a good, solid high tier, with not too much out the ordinary to really make her stand out too much in a game with multiple top/high tier swordfighters. Roy/Chrom, Shulk, Sephiroth, Pyra/Mythra, potentially Cloud are all probably better than her. One could make a case for Hero being better than her but we'd need more data, currently it's mostly Akakikusu and +HOPE+ that is pushing his results significantly as far as I'm aware. Salem might've done it if he weren't banned, but it is what it is. In the long run I could see Hero doing better than Lucina, but for now I would put him lower than her since we don't have the results to back up Hero > Lucina, and it'd be a bit too theoretical. The language barrier might further hold Hero back though; would Akakikusu do as well if he travelled to the US? On the other hand, the language barrier probably hurts even more for people travelling to a country with a Hero main: US players visiting Japan likely do not wish to face Akakikusu!

It looks like VoiD is pretty set on maining Pyra/Mythra once offline competions start again but may not competely drop Shiek. From what I see Sheik seems to be used as a secondary or counterpick by quite a few notable players such as Kameme and Sharp
Last I heard he was also talking about Pichu but I haven't actively followed his stream.

Do you have any source newer than this?
 

The_Bookworm

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One could make a case for Hero being better than her but we'd need more data, currently it's mostly Akakikusu and +HOPE+ that is pushing his results significantly as far as I'm aware. Salem might've done it if he weren't banned, but it is what it is. In the long run I could see Hero doing better than Lucina, but for now I would put him lower than her since we don't have the results to back up Hero > Lucina, and it'd be a bit too theoretical. The language barrier might further hold Hero back though; would Akakikusu do as well if he travelled to the US? On the other hand, the language barrier probably hurts even more for people travelling to a country with a Hero main: US players visiting Japan likely do not wish to face Akakikusu!
Hero is definitely not better than Lucina. His mobility and especially frame data are simply too slow to compete with far Lucina's more fundamentally powerful moveset. Lucina does get hurt by the fact that they are currently other more appealing sword characters in the meta that are more exciting to play, as well as a lot of her reps are either stuck in online purgatory (i.e. Mr E) or not playing her right now (i.e. ProtoBanham).

As for Hero, in the end it is only just Akakikusu that is pushing him to as high as he is. +HOPE+ does well in his region, but in the grand scheme of the overall meta, it isn't too much to right home about. Even prior to Salem's ban, he only sometimes uses Hero, and at the end he focused on pushing Steve's meta instead.
Fun Fact: I actually never knew about the recent Salam ban until you made that comment.
 

Ziodyne 21

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If anything VoiD may use Sheik as a secondary due to Pyra/Mythra potentially losing MU's. An example being Min-Min "potentailly" wins vs the Agies Duo while Sheik "potentially" wins vs Min Min
 

Rizen

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I agree :ultpacman: is a very good high tier but he is being carried by Tea and less so Sinji.

:ulthero: is a weird and incredibly poorly designed character. If he got perfect luck, he would be the best character in the game. Zoom is the best recovery in the game; it completely takes you out of disadvantage. Bounce is the best reflector; you can move while using it. Crit Fsmash and Hatchetman can literally kill you at 0% off sleep or a shield break. And magic burst from advantage is completely unavoidable, it's huge and lasts a long time. Hero also gets some powerful buff spells.
Notice: this is entirely based off command menu. Non-menu Hero is probably upper mid tier with mobility and frame data issues but strong, big moves. So 80% of the time you're fighting a mid tier and the other 20% you're fighting a broken character. He balances out lower high tier imo. What bugs me is if he gets lucky his moves are incredibly janky.
 

StrangeKitten

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Hero's such an all-over-the-place character that we're nearing two years since he released and it's still very tough to say where he belongs. I guess it's not really helped by the fact that he lacked representation. Here's looking forward to what Akakikusu can show us!
 

WatwatBreton

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Re: Hero - Hero's RNG is... not that relevant? When I watch Akakikusu play I see normal, fireballs, a lot of woosh, side b, a bunch of buffs (which are about as RNG reliant as peach turnips, a character that has been providing us with bomb pull twitter clips for 20 years now) and... yeah I guess the occasional magic burst, which while an incredible spell still has its flaws (needs MP, rare). Heck you even see a chrom avoid it in that last offline japanese tournament, a character that gets checkmated offstage by half the cast. And zoom, a spell he gets fairly often anyway since the odds are increased significantly offstage.

Don't get me wrong the character design is very disappointing from a competitive standpoint (man remember when we were speculating about Menu letting him change his specials? good times), but calling him "the best character if he had perfect RNG!" is a rather inaccurate remark - you can have all the RNG you want it wont save you from the fact your menu takes 20 frames to open and half of the spells just hit in a straight line where your side b and fireball hit already anyway. Also iirc Hero has among the lowest upset % among the entire cast, which is quite amusing.

Re: Sheik, despite the obviously lackluster data we have right now I am very glad to see her high. Character feels downright oppressive in certain matchups - which I guess fits her current use as a secondary in the japanese metagame - and has all the tools to compete in neutral. Curious to what her matchup chart looks like against top tiers - I'd guess good against swords coz of mobility + needles? And more awkward against chars like pacman or pika who can outcamp and outboxe her?
 
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Ziodyne 21

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Hero's Frizz and Zap line specials are actullay very good moves on their own. Getting with the right Down-B skills can create o even more janky and goofy shenanigans. Akkakisu got great milage from command buffed Zap attacks
 
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Zachmac

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The deal with RNG is that it might seem important in a single stock but gets balanced out as you zoom out and look at the bigger picture. There's three stocks per match, and three games for set. While even a single stock can make the difference between who wins a match, it only matters that much when two players are very close to evenly matched anyway.

Not to mention that a lot of Hero's "busted" mices have multiple balancing factors. His Smashes for instance are very mediocre moves without the crits and I'm not sure I'd rather have those then something more consitently stupid like Smash Flare of Doriyah. Twack is pretty comparable to G&W's 9, expect its behind two layers of RNG and less likely to kill at really low percentages. But these moves feel very bad to get KOed by which I think makes people overestimate how much they really matter to his overall kit (not to mention your typical competitive player having a phobia of anything RNG).

The hypothetical of Hero having perfect luck is irrelevent since perfect luck will never happen. I know its a tired old comparison Mr.G&W would be also broken if he only ever rolled 8s and 9s but the odds of it are so low it doesn't matter.
 

SKX31

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Japan is, arguably, the strongest Smash country in the world (it's either Japan or the US), so even then that's quite noteworthy. But obviously the data is fairly limited, yeah.
While we can't say for sure which of the two is the strongest, I'm kinda leaning the US still. Despite the pandemic and the scandals having severely affected the Americans within the PGRU Fall 2019. Sure, Japan's had offline events, but those were rather inconsistently played IIRC and it's difficult to say if anyone besides say Zackray and Atelier have secured consistency in those events. There are still a lot of very strong American players, and a lot of them have probably tried to lab things out with the new characters, patch changes etc. So if they're behind, I don't think they're far behind the Japanese players.

Still, the distance between the two has definetely gotten much smaller than before it all. So we'll just have to see when offline has returned elsewhere for a few months and we've gotten a lot of in-person US vs. Japan sets.
 
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Rizen

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Re: Hero - Hero's RNG is... not that relevant? When I watch Akakikusu play I see normal, fireballs, a lot of woosh, side b, a bunch of buffs (which are about as RNG reliant as peach turnips, a character that has been providing us with bomb pull twitter clips for 20 years now) and... yeah I guess the occasional magic burst, which while an incredible spell still has its flaws (needs MP, rare). Heck you even see a chrom avoid it in that last offline japanese tournament, a character that gets checkmated offstage by half the cast. And zoom, a spell he gets fairly often anyway since the odds are increased significantly offstage.

Don't get me wrong the character design is very disappointing from a competitive standpoint (man remember when we were speculating about Menu letting him change his specials? good times), but calling him "the best character if he had perfect RNG!" is a rather inaccurate remark - you can have all the RNG you want it wont save you from the fact your menu takes 20 frames to open and half of the spells just hit in a straight line where your side b and fireball hit already anyway. Also iirc Hero has among the lowest upset % among the entire cast, which is quite amusing.
Are you serious?
"Re: Hero - Hero's RNG is... not that relevant? When I watch Akakikusu play I see normal, fireballs, a lot of woosh, side b, a bunch of buffs (which are about as RNG reliant as peach turnips, a character that has been providing us with bomb pull twitter clips for 20 years now)"
Comparing Hero's RNG to Peach's bobbombs is like saying "a lion can't hurt you because I know house cats and they don't hurt you." Peach has a 0.4% chance to pull a bobbomb. Less than 1%. Hero's gameplan is heavily reliant on RNG with everything from fishing for buffs to recoveries.

"but calling him "the best character if he had perfect RNG!" is a rather inaccurate remark - you can have all the RNG you want it wont save you from the fact your menu takes 20 frames to open and half of the spells just hit in a straight line where your side b and fireball hit already anyway. "
You say it's inaccurate yet you've done nothing to address my points. 20 frames doesn't mean anything if you're in advantage. Advantage means Hero is either landing trapping, ledge trapping or intercepting an opponent. In those situations the opponent has limited options on what they can do and where they can move. 20 frames is plenty of time to throw out an attack.
Furthermore, you mention half the spells hit in a strait line but act like the other half don't. You're pretending his buffs don't happen. Hero gets huge rewards from fishing for buffs and it's easy to do. You can choose which spells to use. It's not like you have to throw out a strait line attack. You can cancel the menu.

"Also iirc Hero has among the lowest upset % among the entire cast, which is quite amusing."
Source?
 
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sleepy_Nex

Smash Journeyman
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209
Are you serious?
"Re: Hero - Hero's RNG is... not that relevant? When I watch Akakikusu play I see normal, fireballs, a lot of woosh, side b, a bunch of buffs (which are about as RNG reliant as peach turnips, a character that has been providing us with bomb pull twitter clips for 20 years now)"
Comparing Hero's RNG to Peach's bobbombs is like saying "a lion can't hurt you because I know house cats and they don't hurt you." Peach has a 0.4% chance to pull a bobbomb. Less than 1%. Hero's gameplan is heavily reliant on RNG with everything from fishing for buffs to recoveries.

"but calling him "the best character if he had perfect RNG!" is a rather inaccurate remark - you can have all the RNG you want it wont save you from the fact your menu takes 20 frames to open and half of the spells just hit in a straight line where your side b and fireball hit already anyway. "
You say it's inaccurate yet you've done nothing to address my points. 20 frames doesn't mean anything if you're in advantage. Advantage means Hero is either landing trapping, ledge trapping or intercepting an opponent. In those situations the opponent has limited options on what they can do and where they can move. 20 frames is plenty of time to throw out an attack.
Furthermore, you mention half the spells hit in a strait line but act like the other half don't. You're pretending his buffs don't happen. Hero gets huge rewards from fishing for buffs and it's easy to do. You can choose which spells to use. It's not like you have to throw out a strait line attack. You can cancel the menu.

"Also iirc Hero has among the lowest upset % among the entire cast, which is quite amusing."
Source?
If we are talking perfect hero rng vs perfect shiek then my money is obe shiek for example.
Hero would be unable to play the game at all except when he has respawn invi. Thats why it's completely irrelevant to say this char is the best in the game with perfect rng. Cuz mu-charts assume the same level of play. So i would say perfect shiek is fair vs perfect rng.

Also Hero is not rng dependant. Besudes going for buffs and maybe zoom he can execute his basic gameplan perfectly fine without menu. He is not chained to it.
 

The_Bookworm

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:ulthero: is a weird and incredibly poorly designed character. If he got perfect luck, he would be the best character in the game. Zoom is the best recovery in the game; it completely takes you out of disadvantage. Bounce is the best reflector; you can move while using it. Crit Fsmash and Hatchetman can literally kill you at 0% off sleep or a shield break. And magic burst from advantage is completely unavoidable, it's huge and lasts a long time. Hero also gets some powerful buff spells.
That's.... not really true.

If we see Akakikusu play, or any top Hero player, you then realize that he isn't really that reliant on RNG. Like what WatwatBreton says, he uses mainly his normals, Zap series, Frizz series, Woosh, and buffs. All, aside from buffs which isn't that difficult to pull off, isn't reliant on RNG.

Even if you get all the spells you want, there is the matter of actually landing them at that very moment. You can control where you use these spells, but you cannot control what the opponent is doing. The 20 frame startup of Menu and limited MP further puts a cap on it. So even with "perfect luck", which will never happen in a realistic match which is why serious Hero players never go for it, it doesn't even catapult him into a top tier.

Magic Burst is also fairly trivial to avoid. Even when done at the ledge, the vast majority of the cast can simply drift offstage long enough until the move ends, or even hit him out of it with a ledge attack. Due to this risk and how rare it is, you don't see Hero players rarely ever go for this.

Hero's gameplan is heavily reliant on RNG with everything from fishing for buffs to recoveries.
Yes, but the reason why Hero players fish for buffs and mainly just buffs is because they are not that difficult to get, especially in advantage. The buffs gives the character a far more prolonged advantage, and is essential for certain matchups. He has the niche matchup against zoners, which is what fishing for buffs gives Hero the key for.

Recovery applies the same way, it isn't too difficult to find Zoom at moments you really need it. Otherwise, most Hero players stick to recovering normally.

Notice: this is entirely based off command menu. Non-menu Hero is probably upper mid tier with mobility and frame data issues but strong, big moves. So 80% of the time you're fighting a mid tier and the other 20% you're fighting a broken character. He balances out lower high tier imo.
Again, I don't really understand the logic here. He has glaring mobility and especially frame data issues, but having strong, big normals suddenly balances it out to upper mid tier?
Either way, only forward air, back air, up tilt, forward smash, and dash attack have good reach, but they are really slow; in startup for fair, bair, and dash attack; and endlag for... all of them. Outside of those moves, his range is honestly not too good for a swordie.

The deal with RNG is that it might seem important in a single stock but gets balanced out as you zoom out and look at the bigger picture. There's three stocks per match, and three games for set. While even a single stock can make the difference between who wins a match, it only matters that much when two players are very close to evenly matched anyway.

Not to mention that a lot of Hero's "busted" mices have multiple balancing factors. His Smashes for instance are very mediocre moves without the crits and I'm not sure I'd rather have those then something more consitently stupid like Smash Flare of Doriyah. Twack is pretty comparable to G&W's 9, expect its behind two layers of RNG and less likely to kill at really low percentages. But these moves feel very bad to get KOed by which I think makes people overestimate how much they really matter to his overall kit (not to mention your typical competitive player having a phobia of anything RNG).

The hypothetical of Hero having perfect luck is irrelevent since perfect luck will never happen. I know its a tired old comparison Mr.G&W would be also broken if he only ever rolled 8s and 9s but the odds of it are so low it doesn't matter.
Following up on Zachmac's comment, a lot of Hero's most seemingly powerful stuff is super inconsistent, which is why when you see a serious Hero player in tournaments (all 3 of them :p), you usually never see them go for the meme spells like Thwack or even crit Smash attacks. If I would have the option between having Hero's smash attacks or something like Pyra's, I would definitely go for the latter.

Das Koopa earlier a several months ago in this thread says that Hero had a laughable upset rate, especially for the "haha KO you early randomly" character and a supposed hidden boss character.
That number is likely different now thanks to Akakikusu, but it kind of also shows you how much he is piggy-back riding the character's meta right now.
 

Rizen

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That's.... not really true.

If we see Akakikusu play, or any top Hero player, you then realize that he isn't really that reliant on RNG. Like what WatwatBreton says, he uses mainly his normals, Zap series, Frizz series, Woosh, and buffs. All, aside from buffs which isn't that difficult to pull off, isn't reliant on RNG.

You're literally saying "aside from the RNG he relies on, he's not reliant on RNG" Let me tell you about the YL vs Hero MU: bounce can change the course of the match. It's completely RNG whether he gets it. Bounce is a ridiculously good move. It would be broken on someone like Wolf. IDK why people are acting like buffs or anything in the command menu isn't RNG.
So what if he isn't fighting a projectile reliant character, you ask. Remember how good Palutena's lightweight custom move was in SSB4? He has that. Mobility is huge. His attack buffs are huge too. He basically has Shulk's arts based on RNG.


Even if you get all the spells you want, there is the matter of actually landing them at that very moment. You can control where you use these spells, but you cannot control what the opponent is doing. The 20 frame startup of Menu and limited MP further puts a cap on it. So even with "perfect luck", which will never happen in a realistic match which is why serious Hero players never go for it, it doesn't even catapult him into a top tier.

See my points about how 20 frames don't matter in advantage from my previous post.

Magic Burst is also fairly trivial to avoid. Even when done at the ledge, the vast majority of the cast can simply drift offstage long enough until the move ends, or even hit him out of it with a ledge attack. Due to this risk and how rare it is, you don't see Hero players rarely ever go for this.

Name on move that's better at ledge trapping than magic burst. The reason you don't see Hero players go for it is because RNG, not that it's a bad ledge trap move. The hitbox is huge and lingering. And you lose your I frames from regrabbing the ledge. He can just smash your re-grab.
What about the other aspects of advantage? Say you're offstage and he jumps down with MB. You really can't do much. The move is designed to be janky and OP because it's rare based on RNG.


Yes, but the reason why Hero players fish for buffs and mainly just buffs is because they are not that difficult to get, especially in advantage. The buffs gives the character a far more prolonged advantage, and is essential for certain matchups. He has the niche matchup against zoners, which is what fishing for buffs gives Hero the key for.

Getting a specific buff, like bounce, is still RNG and harder. It's easy to get some buff but some are better than others.

Recovery applies the same way, it isn't too difficult to find Zoom at moments you really need it. Otherwise, most Hero players stick to recovering normally.


Again, I don't really understand the logic here. He has glaring mobility and especially frame data issues, but having strong, big normals suddenly balances it out to upper mid tier?
Either way, only forward air, back air, up tilt, forward smash, and dash attack have good reach, but they are really slow; in startup for fair, bair, and dash attack; and endlag for... all of them. Outside of those moves, his range is honestly not too good for a swordie.

So where would you rank the theoretical non-menu Hero?
Again you're kind of saying "aside from these attacks that do have good reach, he has bad reach". F/Bair and Utilt alone have pretty good coverage. I would also add Jab and his sideB to good reaching attacks as sideB is not a projectile, curiously.


Following up on Zachmac's comment, a lot of Hero's most seemingly powerful stuff is super inconsistent, which is why when you see a serious Hero player in tournaments (all 3 of them :p), you usually never see them go for the meme spells like Thwack or even crit Smash attacks. If I would have the option between having Hero's smash attacks or something like Pyra's, I would definitely go for the latter.

I agree with this. That's why I said 80% of the time it's like you're fighting a mid tier.

Das Koopa earlier a several months ago in this thread says that Hero had a laughable upset rate, especially for the "haha KO you early randomly" character and a supposed hidden boss character.
That number is likely different now thanks to Akakikusu, but it kind of also shows you how much he is piggy-back riding the character's meta right now.

To be clear, no one is saying he's a hidden boss or ban Hero. I'm just saying the character design is horrible. His RNG moves are stupidly overpowered and janky. It's stupid to have a bad character rely on RNG to be good. Which is what Hero does.

I'm tired of people trying to downplay how janky his RNG moves are. I've played Heros in live tournaments and friendlies. If he gets magic burst in advantage, you're probably screwed. It's not a situation you can do very much about. That's why I say "you got Hero-ed" sometimes the luck is just not with you and it is luck. Disclaimer: I've faced Hero in tournaments twice and won both sets. I'm non johning because I lost. But it's just bad game design what they did with Hero.
 
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meleebrawler

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If Hero is having the advantage with an almost full MP bar that is necessary for Magic Burst to be truly threatening, he was probably soundly trouncing you without RNG anyhow. To say nothing of the bad spot it leaves you in if it fails for any reason with no MP.

Croagunk in Pokken Tournament also has a lot of things going against him until he makes some RNG rolls on his moves, is he badly designed too, even if you consider him a "joke" character?
 

Spinosaurus

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Even ignoring menu Hero kinda just has a ridiculously good special set? Zapple is like easily the best side special in the game, Woosh is an incredible OOS and landing mix up, and there's some shenanigans off stage with it, and then he just gets a fantastic projectile he either can charge or just use non charged as a slow projectile to cover him.

The menu's just the cherry on top. I've been thinking the character is slept on from the start, and I'm glad we're finally starting to see his potential.
 

RonNewcomb

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:ulthero: is a weird and incredibly poorly designed character. If he got perfect luck, he would be the best character in the game. Zoom is the best recovery in the game; it completely takes you out of disadvantage. Bounce is the best reflector; you can move while using it. Crit Fsmash and Hatchetman can literally kill you at 0% off sleep or a shield break. And magic burst from advantage is completely unavoidable, it's huge and lasts a long time. Hero also gets some powerful buff spells.
Notice: this is entirely based off command menu. Non-menu Hero is probably upper mid tier with mobility and frame data issues but strong, big moves. So 80% of the time you're fighting a mid tier and the other 20% you're fighting a broken character. He balances out lower high tier imo. What bugs me is if he gets lucky his moves are incredibly janky.
I'd say you're just experiencing a notably bad matchup. YLink needs projectiles and even with them has to look for specific kill confirms which your tourney regulars will know by now. That gives Hero a lot of time to search for the jank comeback, on top of the Bounce double whammy. I'd wager both of the other two Links have a better MU than Young, even if Toon's is only marginally better cause of fair and bair killing on time.
 

RonNewcomb

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Even ignoring menu Hero kinda just has a ridiculously good special set? Zapple is like easily the best side special in the game, Woosh is an incredible OOS and landing mix up, and there's some shenanigans off stage with it, and then he just gets a fantastic projectile he either can charge or just use non charged as a slow projectile to cover him.

The menu's just the cherry on top. I've been thinking the character is slept on from the start, and I'm glad we're finally starting to see his potential.
I dunno. His specials are good, yes, but that is a slow sword. Accelerate is the one spell that I think saves him from sucking.
 

Envoy of Chaos

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It’s not that Hero doesn’t have to play with RNG, he does, it’s that the moves he wants to use often (buffs) appear often enough and his kit without menu spells is usable enough that he doesn’t have to either get constant good RNG to function as a character. He doesn’t have to roll buffs to win but they absolutely help him win when he does get them and he has plenty of opportunities to get them.

Accelerate is really unwieldy and I’ve yet to see a set decided because of a lucky accelerate roll. Bounce is a bit more nuanced in that projectile heavy characters have to adjust their gameplan around it when it appears but again how often is Hero able to rely on good RNG to keep a steady stream of bounces active one after another?
 
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