• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

?


  • Total voters
    587

Thinkaman

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Aug 26, 2007
Messages
6,535
Location
Madison, WI
NNID
Thinkaman
3DS FC
1504-5749-3616
I believe Nobie was just saying it was an indicator, an illustrative example. As you say, no one in this game is truly handicapped by a single bad matchup--even a bad matchup against someone like Ness, Plautena, or Joker is going to account for 3% or less of opponents in tournament.
 

blackghost

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 9, 2015
Messages
2,249
I believe Nobie was just saying it was an indicator, and illustrative example. As you say, no one in this game is truly handicapped by a single bad matchup--even a bad matchup against someone like Ness, Plautena, or Joker is going to account for 3% or less of opponents.
I think that palutena was a gatekeeper for character viability up to a certain point in this games lifespan. But with her being toned down and more dlc added I don't think she does that role anymore.
 

Thinkaman

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Aug 26, 2007
Messages
6,535
Location
Madison, WI
NNID
Thinkaman
3DS FC
1504-5749-3616
I think that palutena was a gatekeeper for character viability up to a certain point in this games lifespan. But with her being toned down and more dlc added I don't think she does that role anymore.
I think a trivially more accurate claim to the gatekeeper title would be Wolf, who in that era enjoyed broader usage and seemed to have more diffuse results.

But I'd agree that Palu is an undisputed 2nd, with possibly ROB looking to join them in modern times--if it weren't a stretch to call their current presence "gatekeepers", as you say. These days they are weak gatekeepers at best.
 

Ziodyne 21

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 11, 2016
Messages
1,681
Well Kagaribi 3, an offline toruney in Japan is going on and ohh boy do we got upsets!

Kyo :ultsnake: 2-0 Kameme :ultmegaman::ultsheik:

Matomo :ultwiifittrainer:2-0 Umeki :ultpeach:

Akakikisu :ulthero: 2-0 Raito :ultduckhunt:

Yuzu :ultpichu:2-0 Abadango :ultpalutena:

Noi :ultolimar: 2-1 vs Passeriman :ultfox:

Huto :ultdiddy:2-1 Tsu :ultpyra::ult_terry:

I can imagine the smash meta becoming the wild west once offline competitions fully come back

Also the set of Zackray :ultrob::ultwario::ultjoker:2-1 Ly :ultcorrinf:was notable for just how insanely close it was In fact in Ly did not have that unfortunate SD in game 2 Ly would no doubt won

Frihetsanka Frihetsanka prehaps you should not completely count Corrin out juussst quite yet
 
Last edited:

DougEfresh

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 23, 2020
Messages
212
has tsu entirely dropped lucario?
Idk that he's entirely dropped Lucario because I've still seen Tsu pull him out very occasionally at Japanese tourneys, but functionally, Luc might as well not be in Tsu's character rotation anymore. Kongo Saga 2019 was the last super major he played :ultlucario:, beating Prodigy's :ultmario: and going to game 5 against Tweek's :ultjoker:/:ultwario: and then he made the switch to maining:ult_terry:. He also has a fairly regular :ulthero: iirc. At least in Ultimate's history so far, Tsu has always played multiple characters (at one point he was also playing :ultisabelle::ultswordfighter::ultjoker: and :ultken:), so I've questioned how loyal he was to Lucario in this game to begin with despite Tsu's claim to fame with him in Sm4sh.
 

The_Bookworm

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 10, 2018
Messages
3,228
Idk that he's entirely dropped Lucario because I've still seen Tsu pull him out very occasionally at Japanese tourneys, but functionally, Luc might as well not be in Tsu's character rotation anymore. Kongo Saga 2019 was the last super major he played :ultlucario:, beating Prodigy's :ultmario: and going to game 5 against Tweek's :ultjoker:/:ultwario: and then he made the switch to maining:ult_terry:. He also has a fairly regular :ulthero: iirc. At least in Ultimate's history so far, Tsu has always played multiple characters (at one point he was also playing :ultisabelle::ultswordfighter::ultjoker: and :ultken:), so I've questioned how loyal he was to Lucario in this game to begin with despite Tsu's claim to fame with him in Sm4sh.
He hasn't been too keen with Lucario for a while now. Even back in SSB4, during the 2018 meta, Tsu has been resorting to using more secondaries, sometimes more often than his Lucario. I am not sure if it has something to do with his mood with the game at the time, but Tsu has been very experienced with using secondaries for quite a while now.

Considering how many players, including himself, think very lowly of Lucario in Ultimate, it makes sense that he has been drifting away from using him even more now.
 
Last edited:

DougEfresh

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 23, 2020
Messages
212
He hasn't been too keen with Lucario for a while now. Even back in SSB4, during the 2018 meta, Tsu has been resorting to using more secondaries, sometimes more often than his Lucario. I am not sure if it has something to do with his mood with the game at the time, but Tsu has been very experienced with using secondaries for quite a while now.

Considering how many players, including himself, think very lowly of Lucario in Ultimate, it makes sense that he has been drifting away from using him even more now.
I'm less familiar with his viewpoint(s) during the sm4sh era, but yes, I'm quite aware that Tsu does not look at Lucario positively in this game (maining the character myself and being familiar with the very few remaining representatives of the character). I see Tsu as a strong player in terms of skill and fundamentals, but I've wondered if he's lacked the mental fortitude needed to push Lucario further.

Armadillo (top Canadian :ultlucario: who's popped off at big wifi tourneys the last few months with wins against MVD, Wadi, Dabuz, etc) thinks he's a top 30-35 high tier character; a stark contrast to general consensus in the overall smash community and even among other Lucario mains....I won't try predicting the future, but if Luc's got a chance to have his perception changed in Ultimate's meta, Armadillo's confidence and optimism about him could be just the ticket if he competes at big offline events and places well at them once they return.
 
Last edited:

Frihetsanka

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 26, 2016
Messages
2,252
Location
Sweden
Frihetsanka Frihetsanka Frihetsanka Frihetsanka prehaps you should not completely count Corrin out juussst quite yet
Some things to keep in mind: Corrin does pretty well against both ROB (probably slightly losing or Even) and Wario (probably Even, some say slightly winning, especially after the 11.0.0 Wario I could see it, before I thought it was Even). She does bad against Joker though, it's at best slightly losing but could be worse than that, and Zackray did 2-stock Ly when he went Joker. The character has a fair amount of bad matchups, including characters like Joker, Diddy Kong, Zero Suit Samus, Sephiroth, Shulk, etc etc, Zackray happened to play two MUs that aren't particularly bad for her though (ROB, which is slightly losing at worst, and Wario, which is Even at worst).

Also, let's not forget that Japan has a lot of mid tiers (and even some low tiers!) doing decently well from time to time, such as Piranha Plant with Brood, Duck Hunt with Raito, Toon Link with several players, Villager with Kept, etc etc.

Ly is probably the best active Corrin. An upset against Zackray would've been cool, but alas, not today. 33rd place in the end, losing to Zackray and takera, win vs Rain at least. I don't think that's a run that's going to convince me (or anyone, really) that Corrin is high tier if they didn't believe she was already. If Ly keeps this up then maybe Corrin won't have bottom 10 results once OrionStats returns. Then again, 33rd at a 132 person tournament isn't exactly spectacular.
 

TheMightyP

Smash Obsessed
Joined
Jan 25, 2019
Messages
37,413
Location
β™ͺMARINA'S CHATβ˜†ROOMβ™ͺ
A lot of upsets in this tourney it looks like.
A list of them

My Hero bias may be speaking again, but I think Akakikusu is a player to look out for here on out.

He got yet another PGR win (Raito), and another top 8 showing today. Of course, I'm not sure if he will leave Japan (language barrier and such), but people were definitely sleeping on him and Hero in general.
 

Frihetsanka

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 26, 2016
Messages
2,252
Location
Sweden
For the time being, I would put him in high tier. Maybe he could be top tier but we will likely never know for sure, since I don't foresee a top level player actually maining Hero. Right now, Salem is probably the best Hero player, while Parappa is probably the best Hero player. If Salem went all in on Hero and decided to master him and the use of Command Selection then we could be in for a ride, but I don't think he's going to do that.
So I posted this a few years ago, and with the way Akakikusu has been playing Hero in high tier seems fairly likely. Top tier? I currently don't think so, but high tier seems plausible. Akakikusu is by far the best Hero player I've seen (better than Salem, I'd say). +HOPE+, the best player in Denmark, is pretty good too.
 

Aaron1997

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 29, 2014
Messages
709
Location
Arkansas
NNID
Aaron1318
Kagaribi 3 Results

1. Tea:ultpacman:
2. Atelier :ultpokemontrainer::ultsquirtle::ultivysaur::ultcharizard::ultwolf:
3. Akakikusu:ulthero4:
4. Zackray :ultwario::ultrob::ultjoker:
5. tk3:ultroy::ultchrom:
5. Tsu:ult_terry::ultbrawler::ultpyra::ultlucario:
7. Shky:ultzss:
7. Huto:ultdiddy::ultwario:
9. Repo:ultmegaman:
9. Eim :ultsheik::ultjoker:
9. Kome:ultshulk::ultpyra:
9. Lea:ultgreninja::ultsephiroth:
13. Hero:ultbowser:
13. Nukoeru:ultyounglink:
13. Kameme :ultsheik::ultsephiroth:
13. chicken :ultdiddy:
17. Abadango :ultpalutena:
17. KEN:ultsonic:
17. Choco:ultzss:
17. Satau :ultpit:
17. Kept :ultvillager:
17. Yuzu:ultpichu::ultrosalina:
17. Takera:ultken:
17.Kyou:ultsnake:
25. Taranito:ultness:
25. Tet :ultpit:
25. Oreshi:ultsteve:
25. Across:ultgnw:
25. Jogibu:ultfalcon:
25. Biscord:ultmegaman:
25. Nanami:ultvillager:
25. Noi:ultolimar:
33. Senra:ultjigglypuff:
33. Yamanyon:ultzss:
33. DoubleA:ultshulk:
33. Lunamado:ultbowser::ultluigi:
33. Rotsuku:ultyoshi:
33. DIO:ultsnake:
33. Akasa:ultpalutena:
33. Hitsu:ulttoonlink:
33. Ike :ultsnake:
33. Suinoko:ultyounglink:
33. Misia:ultincineroar:
33. Raito:ultduckhunt:
33. Rinkururu:ultlucas:
33.Ly:ultcorrinf:
33. Mao:ultminmin
33. hasuio:ultpalutena:
 

Frihetsanka

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 26, 2016
Messages
2,252
Location
Sweden
Akakikusu vs Tea was Game 5, that could've ended very differently! Hero really showing up, which is interesting. The character is probably underrated by many.

Senra, Jigglypuff, getting 33rd. I think the character is a tad underrated, Jigglypuff is probably not bottom 10, she's not nearly as bad as in 4 (quite a bit better) and some of her best players, like BassMage and Speclar, are doing stuff with her.

It's interesting that we're also seeing some Fighter Pass 2 DLC already. An offline Steve (Oreshi) getting 25th, a Min Min (Mao) getting 33rd, Kameme and Lea using Sephiroth as a secondary/pocket, Tsu and Kome using Pyra/Mythra as a secondary/pocket. Didn't Lea use quite a bit of Sephiroth? I didn't follow the tournament 100% but seems like he used quite a bit of Sephiroth?

Two Mega Man mains that are not Kameme doing well, huh. Even without Kameme the character seems to have a strong showing. Also, like usual the character variety is quite significant, which also means top players will have to learn a ton of matchups. Who really knows the Hero matchup? Going by the way Akakikusu was playing it seems like Japanese players might want to consider learning that MU. I wonder if Akakikusu will be able to attend US tournaments? The language gap could be a real issue, he was able to read commands quickly in Japanese, but would he be able to read them as quickly in English?
 

Wunderwaft

Smash Master
Joined
Mar 21, 2019
Messages
3,499
Heads up but it seems that Nintendo made online play even worse after the latest patch.

 

The_Bookworm

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 10, 2018
Messages
3,228
Kagaribi 3 Results

1. Tea:ultpacman:
2. Atelier :ultpokemontrainer::ultsquirtle::ultivysaur::ultcharizard::ultwolf:
3. Akakikusu:ulthero4:
4. Zackray :ultwario::ultrob::ultjoker:
5. tk3:ultroy::ultchrom:
5. Tsu:ult_terry::ultbrawler::ultpyra::ultlucario:
7. Shky:ultzss:
7. Huto:ultdiddy::ultwario:
9. Repo:ultmegaman:
9. Eim :ultsheik::ultjoker:
9. Kome:ultshulk::ultpyra:
9. Lea:ultgreninja::ultsephiroth:
13. Hero:ultbowser:
13. Nukoeru:ultyounglink:
13. Kameme :ultsheik::ultsephiroth:
13. chicken :ultdiddy:
17. Abadango :ultpalutena:
17. KEN:ultsonic:
17. Choco:ultzss:
17. Satau :ultpit:
17. Kept :ultvillager:
17. Yuzu:ultpichu::ultrosalina:
17. Takera:ultken:
17.Kyou:ultsnake:
25. Taranito:ultness:
25. Tet :ultpit:
25. Oreshi:ultsteve:
25. Across:ultgnw:
25. Jogibu:ultfalcon:
25. Biscord:ultmegaman:
25. Nanami:ultvillager:
25. Noi:ultolimar:
33. Senra:ultjigglypuff:
33. Yamanyon:ultzss:
33. DoubleA:ultshulk:
33. Lunamado:ultbowser::ultluigi:
33. Rotsuku:ultyoshi:
33. DIO:ultsnake:
33. Akasa:ultpalutena:
33. Hitsu:ulttoonlink:
33. Ike :ultsnake:
33. Suinoko:ultyounglink:
33. Misia:ultincineroar:
33. Raito:ultduckhunt:
33. Rinkururu:ultlucas:
33.Ly:ultcorrinf:
33. Mao:ultminmin
33. hasuio:ultpalutena:
This tournament was absolutely crazy with upsets. This is truly feeling like a Japanese offline event.

Akakikusu vs Tea was Game 5, that could've ended very differently! Hero really showing up, which is interesting. The character is probably underrated by many.
Even since the beginning, Hero lacked anyone pushing him to any significant degree in high level, even mid level play. The closest is Salem, but he only uses him as a counterpick, even moreso now since he is focusing on Steve. The character is too flawed and inconsistent to have actual use in high level play.

Suddently enter Akakikusu, who is providing the character by far the best results the character has ever seen. Hero getting not only any good results at top level play, but also actual consistent results, is something I never expected. Akakikusu is definitely the best Hero player in the world right now, and it will be interesting to see if he can continue providing.

Senra, Jigglypuff, getting 33rd. I think the character is a tad underrated, Jigglypuff is probably not bottom 10, she's not nearly as bad as in 4 (quite a bit better) and some of her best players, like BassMage and Speclar, are doing stuff with her.
Puff getting 25th/33rd at any Japanese event, no matter how big it is, is something not too unusual, even back in SSB4. The character super rarely gets any further though, and this is sadly the only real source of Puff results. BassMage and Speciar, as talented as they are, don't really provide the best of results in higher levels of play.
 

TheMightyP

Smash Obsessed
Joined
Jan 25, 2019
Messages
37,413
Location
β™ͺMARINA'S CHATβ˜†ROOMβ™ͺ
So my thoughts after this tourney:

PT is still top 10. He never left it imo.
Hero is definitely a high tier character. Not top by any means, but he is definitely solo viable. Stop sleeping on him, he's more than funny RNG man.
Akak is the best Hero in the world on that note.
Wario is still a possible top tier, just not top 10 anymore.
Toon Link is better than what most think.
 

SKX31

Smash Master
Joined
Feb 22, 2019
Messages
3,462
Location
Sweden
This tournament was absolutely crazy with upsets. This is truly feeling like a Japanese offline event.


Even since the beginning, Hero lacked anyone pushing him to any significant degree in high level, even mid level play. The closest is Salem, but he only uses him as a counterpick, even moreso now since he is focusing on Steve. The character is too flawed and inconsistent to have actual use in high level play.

Suddently enter Akakikusu, who is providing the character by far the best results the character has ever seen. Hero getting not only any good results at top level play, but also actual consistent results, is something I never expected. Akakikusu is definitely the best Hero player in the world right now, and it will be interesting to see if he can continue providing.


Puff getting 25th/33rd at any Japanese event, no matter how big it is, is something not too unusual, even back in SSB4. The character super rarely gets any further though, and this is sadly the only real source of Puff results. BassMage and Speciar, as talented as they are, don't really provide the best of results in higher levels of play.
I've always found it weird watching Japanese events because there have not been many players who have clear consistent results. It's partly because there are so many players there who are Top 100 / Top 50 caliber, but I kinda feel that a lot of it comes down to the fact that there are these seemingly random dips too. Abadango and KEN for example - they only got 17th this major, and they are usually higher than that. It might just be the fact that there's so many Top 100 / Top 50 players they take a lot of sets off of each other.

It's what makes them so hard to rank really - honestly, I feel that like 3-4 guys have the potential to reach Top 10 alongside Zackray (+ you can certainly argue Kameme), but the consistency needed to do that doesn't seem quite there. Still, I do think it's worth that Japanese players will have something of a leg up when offline tournaments do resume in the West, but Western players aren't going to be slouches either.
 

KirbySquad101

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 7, 2015
Messages
927
Some notes watching some of the vids in the tourney (didn't get to all of them):

- Platform campy Zackray is something I thought I'd never see, but it definitely worked against Tsu's :ult_terry:.Without a good hitbox to poke at :ultwario: from a distance while he's up a lead and building up Waft, there ain't much Tsu could've done aside from making risquΓ© approaches, all of which worked in Zackray's favor.

- Two things I'm seeing with Pythra:

  • The more I watch Pythra the less I'm convinced they're "easy" characters, more specifically Mythra. Tsu going for the easy-bake 2-3 hit strings in favor of Mythra's more complex damage routes really did not work in his favor against Zackray, who could easily even out the same amount of damage Mytrha did in 6-7 hits in about 2-3 with Wario. Having a better neutral than Wario really doesn't mean much if you can't match his damage output.
  • One interesting development I saw with the two was when Tsu decided to swap between the two. He didn't really go for the traditional "Mythra-neutral-damaging-racking" into "Pyra-kill-bot", but instead used it as a means to stall their landing a la :ultgnw: Bucket or:ultpit:Orbitars. One notable use of this was in his game 3 set against Zackray's:ultwario:, where he stalled via switching to Pyra to narrowly avoid Wario's second UAir and then proceed to NAir reversal him to delete his second stock.
- Zackray's making the :ultwario: nerfs look like they never happened at all, even the UTilt one. I was floored when he still managed to get the late hit against Tsu game 3 and win against a 100% deficit because of it.

- Akikasu's :ulthero4:is like an enigma to me, which honestly is the best way to describe his gameplay, because aside from Tea and Atelier, most players couldn't figure out what he was going for, not even Zackray. The best way I can describe it is... aware? He plays Hero's bait-and-switch shtick to the core, but he also doesn't suddenly start swinging when the opponent's getting close either. He sometimes approaches back but he doesn't really press a button if he knows the opponent won't commit to their approach. When he does, he knows just how to punish their approach, leading to a "to punish or not to punish" mindgames-esque tactic that felt very effective against other powerful bait-and-punish characters like Wario and even more aggressive characters like Chroy. This extends to his advantage state as well, knowing fully well that Tea was going for his usual Hydrant drop to stall his movement while recovering, and punishing accordingly by simply being right next to him while Bounce was still active. He only seemed to stumble a bit against more "methodical" aggression from Tea, who used Pac-Man's aerial drift and boxing buttons to play just outside of his OoS options while also making sure he can't do anything too crazy with his command selection.

- Speaking of which, also daily reminder that :ultpacman: is still an unfair character. Those Side-B conversions off of not just Galaxian, but Bell were some of the most disgusting plays I've seen from Tea in a long time and it honestly did wonders in helping him seal those stocks outside of yolo F-Smashes.

- Other notes include whiffed smash attacks being the death of people's sets (i.e. Tsu's whiffed Pyra FSmash against Zack and Zack's whiffed USmash against Aki), aaaaanndddd Raito and Paseriman really not having a good day today. Especially the latter, who didn't even manage to make top 48 (which has to sting after the ridicule he faced from that Set A/Set B experiment a while ago). Also some top 8 shoe-ins (KEN, Kome, Raito) didn't make top 8 but that's not really anything new for Japan.
 
Last edited:

Frihetsanka

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 26, 2016
Messages
2,252
Location
Sweden
Speaking of Akakikusu and Hero, I imagine anyone not from Japan will dread facing him in bracket (in Japan). Imagine if a US top players goes to Japan and then has to face Akakikusu, having to deal with Hero's menu in Japanese won't be fun... Might be a good idea to lab it a bit if that's a possibility! We've seen the opposite with Raito and Salem but Raito at least knows some English, I doubt many US or European players know how to read Japanese. If you know you might end up facing Akakikusu and the language is in Japanese you might want to grind the menu I suppose.
 

Wunderwaft

Smash Master
Joined
Mar 21, 2019
Messages
3,499
Speaking of Akakikusu and Hero, I imagine anyone not from Japan will dread facing him in bracket (in Japan). Imagine if a US top players goes to Japan and then has to face Akakikusu, having to deal with Hero's menu in Japanese won't be fun... Might be a good idea to lab it a bit if that's a possibility! We've seen the opposite with Raito and Salem but Raito at least knows some English, I doubt many US or European players know how to read Japanese. If you know you might end up facing Akakikusu and the language is in Japanese you might want to grind the menu I suppose.
It's at times like this that I kinda wish the Smash team incorporated icons to Hero's menu to fix the language barrier problem. Obviously this change won't happen since it's been nearly two years since Hero released, but I still wonder what prevented the devs from making it easier to recognize the spells.
 

meleebrawler

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 8, 2014
Messages
8,158
Location
Canada, Quebec
NNID
meleebrawler
3DS FC
2535-3888-1548
Some notes watching some of the vids in the tourney (didn't get to all of them):

- Platform campy Zackray is something I thought I'd never see, but it definitely worked against Tsu's :ult_terry:.Without a good hitbox to poke at :ultwario: from a distance while he's up a lead and building up Waft, there ain't much Tsu could've done aside from making risquΓ© approaches, all of which worked in Zackray's favor.

- Two things I'm seeing with Pythra:

  • The more I watch Pythra the less I'm convinced they're "easy" characters, more specifically Mythra. Tsu going for the easy-bake 2-3 hit strings in favor of Mythra's more complex damage routes really did not work in his favor against Zackray, who could easily even out the same amount of damage Mytrha did in 6-7 hits in about 2-3 with Wario. Having a better neutral than Wario really doesn't mean much if you can't match his damage output.
  • One interesting development I saw with the two was when Tsu decided to swap between the two. He didn't really go for the traditional "Mythra-neutral-damaging-racking" into "Pyra-kill-bot", but instead used it as a means to stall their landing a la :ultgnw: Bucket or:ultpit:Orbitars. One notable use of this was in his game 3 set against Zackray's:ultwario:, where he stalled via switching to Pyra to narrowly avoid Wario's second UAir and then proceed to NAir reversal him to delete his second stock.
"Easy" in what regards for the Aegis? To some extent they probably fall under easy to pick up but hard to master, with fundamentals-based players being very familiar with their playstyle, but it takes some outside-the-box thinking with their swapping to avoid falling into exploitable patterns for too long.

With only two similar characters you can freely alternate between, swapping is not just a matter of reacting to your own situation and actions, but also your opponent's behavior. You need to be quick to see if your opponent is trying to go on the offensive (usually better handled by Mythra) or taking a defensive position (Pyra prevents zoners from getting too comfortable), among other things. And you don't necessarily have to be a Mythra combo savant to maximise damage if you know where Pyra can be inserted to pick up the slack. Unless I'm very comfortable with how things are going with with one blade, I swap a lot when playing them in general. It's the only way to minimize the glaring flaws each side has.

All that is stuff the one-way swapping of Pokemon Trainer is not nearly as graceful in handling, they really don't like things not going according to their "optimal" plan.
 
Last edited:

Goodstyle_4

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 25, 2014
Messages
278
The Wario nerfs barely nerfed the Wario combos besides the niche ones. Even utilt to max waft is still doable if you have the reflexes. What they nerfed was raw Waft, which is like the opposite of where the balancing should have gone.
 

meleebrawler

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 8, 2014
Messages
8,158
Location
Canada, Quebec
NNID
meleebrawler
3DS FC
2535-3888-1548
The Wario nerfs barely nerfed the Wario combos besides the niche ones. Even utilt to max waft is still doable if you have the reflexes. What they nerfed was raw Waft, which is like the opposite of where the balancing should have gone.
And just how do you intend to do this without neutering Wario's combo capabilities entirely?
 

Frihetsanka

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 26, 2016
Messages
2,252
Location
Sweden
It's at times like this that I kinda wish the Smash team incorporated icons to Hero's menu to fix the language barrier problem. Obviously this change won't happen since it's been nearly two years since Hero released, but I still wonder what prevented the devs from making it easier to recognize the spells.
This is such an obvious solution, yeah, I wonder if it would be possible to get them to do this somehow? Twitter talking about it, perhaps? Seems unlikely though, maybe for the next game if Hero is still in it.
 

Goodstyle_4

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 25, 2014
Messages
278
And just how do you intend to do this without neutering Wario's combo capabilities entirely?
This is how Wario should have been balanced.

Max waft and half-waft have the same speed as before the nerf, but they have less knockback. The crazy kill combos are toned down this way, but the OOS waft punishes are still deadly since having a 5 frame move that's 8F OOS that kills at 70-100% is still incredible.

As compensation for losing a lot of his comeback factor with the waft, they also should improve the nair connectivity and other QOL buffs in his moveset like significant buffs to his smash attacks (Usmash losing its sour spot, DSmash hitting lower, coming out faster, and having better knockback). Also, make his jab way faster since its literally the worst jab in the entire game.
 

Thinkaman

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Aug 26, 2007
Messages
6,535
Location
Madison, WI
NNID
Thinkaman
3DS FC
1504-5749-3616
Akakikusu and Atelier were both playing out of their minds. (Tea was playing well too but it wasn't a surprise.)

Akakikusu got sooo many kills by getting Oomph+Psych Up and letting Kafrizz rip--this is hilarious because specials projectiles don't benefit from either buff, it's purely a fake out.

Shky probably would have beaten Akakikusu though if he was more experienced with the matchup; you could see the hesitation, the little-too-much respect. Against Hero, that converts into free menus.

Great stuff, wish we had more footage. It's like I started to forget how good smash could be.
 

TheMightyP

Smash Obsessed
Joined
Jan 25, 2019
Messages
37,413
Location
β™ͺMARINA'S CHATβ˜†ROOMβ™ͺ
Akakikusu got sooo many kills by getting Oomph+Psych Up and letting Kafrizz rip--this is hilarious because specials don't benefit from either buff, it's purely a fake out.
Just a slight correction on this, Oomph and Psyche up do affect the Zap spells since they's not actually projectiles.

That's exactly how Tea died so early to Kazap that one game, because Kazap+Oomph is a OHKO at the ledge, and is basically a free stock at very low percents.
 

Tri Knight

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 10, 2015
Messages
783
Toon Link is better than what most think.
Been saying this for years. Toon Link is always so slept on and it just always seems to be due to lack of interest in the character. He's got a lot going for him. One thing he lost was the ability to run through opponents, making his backthrow a bit more situational, but other than that I can totally see him as a firm high tier.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Nobie

Smash Champion
Joined
Sep 27, 2002
Messages
2,251
NNID
SDShamshel
3DS FC
2809-8958-8223
One of the tricky things about Hero's spell names is that fluency in Japanese by itself only goes so far. Even if you can read quickly, you also have to know the names of the spells, and they're often much more gobbledygook than in English.

For example, you can see Acceleratle and think "Oh that probably makes him faster" or see Kaboom and go "That is probably gonna explode." But in Japanese, Acceleratle is "Piriomu" and Kaboom is "Ionazun"β€”both nonsense words akin to Hocus Pocus. Incidentally, the actual spell Hocus Pocus is "Parupunte."
 

WatwatBreton

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 27, 2021
Messages
33
A few more notes on Akikasu's :ulthero4: I picked up (didn't get to watch all of it though):
  • He got a lot of mileage out of Woosh (and its variations). Out of shield punishes, edgegarding, and the one that surprised me the most: a landing mixup. You see it a few times in that chrom set where chrom shields expecting an attack and the slight up b delay + stall catches him offguard and results in Akikasu reversing the situation. Wondering how much of that is matchup inexperience (seems like something you could cover if you expect it?) but it was very cool to see.
  • Lots of menu, more than I expected actually? Fishing for buffs, throwing out random spells, he even runs out of mana a few times. In comparison the few I've seen of Salem's hero was buffs and the occasional kaboom.
  • He's just outplayed his opponents so much lmao that was crazy. I looked at the chrom set in particular coz that seemed like a matchup Hero would struggle more in (his diagonal coverage and frame data are both quite bad, one of the reason he doesn't like fighting gren who just short hops over stuff), and then I saw him winning interactions after interactions haha. Very good player, who seemed very aware of when to swing - his landing mixups in particular were neat, between the Woosh stuff and just using full hop tomahawks in neutral quite a few times to catch his opponent offguard.
 
Last edited:

SwagGuy99

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 28, 2016
Messages
713
Apparently frame 1 escape options have become a lot stronger against Wario now. I don't know if this was something other people were aware of yet, but yesterday was the first time I've seen it mentioned.
There was a problem fetching the tweet

So as a result of Wario's changes, there's a handful of characters who have aerial frame 1 escape options that might be harder for Wario to kill consistently now.

  • :ultbayonetta: (Bat's Within)
  • :ultduckhunt: (Trick Shot)
  • :ultluigi: (Luigi Cyclone)
  • :ultmarth::ultlucina: (Dolphin Slash)
  • :ultpokemontrainer: (PokΓ©mon Switch)
  • :ultsnake: (Grenades)

Puff and Kirby have frame 1 aerial escape options are well but theirs are either very risky or extremely situational, so this doesn't matter as much for them.

  • :ultjigglypuff: (Rest, which is too high risk to be very practical)
  • :ultkirby: (With Grenades or Trick Shot, not practical outside of doubles)
So this might impact Wario negatively in a handful of matchups, several of which he didn't really do all that great against even before this patch.
 
Last edited:

Gearkeeper-8a

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 12, 2018
Messages
198
If wario can still getting combos into wafts KOs with reads then that is a good balance.

Risk/rewards is more healthy, nerfing waft ko capacities will only make wario wait to get more damage on the opponent but the result will be practically the same unless the nerf is very drastic.
 

Frihetsanka

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 26, 2016
Messages
2,252
Location
Sweden
  • Lots of menu, more than I expected actually? Fishing for buffs, throwing out random spells, he even runs out of mana a few times. In comparison the few I've seen of Salem's hero was buffs and the occasional kaboom.
I've long been a proponent that optimal Hero should use Menu a lot and that Salem's Hero had subpar Menu usage. Akakikusu seems to be proving me correct on that part.

If wario can still getting combos into wafts KOs with reads then that is a good balance.
Top 15-20 is still very good, so assuming that Twitter post is correct about that part (and it does seem plausible) then Wario is still good. Not quite as dominant as he used to be, though.

  • :ultjigglypuff: (Rest, which is too high risk to be very practical)
Well, if Wario up-tilts you it might be worth it to go for a Rest in case he Wafts, I guess? Though he might bait it and then punish your missed Rest. I wonder how hard that would be to time anyway?
 

RonNewcomb

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 29, 2014
Messages
449
Interesting we're talking about :ultyoshi: and :ultwario: because, fighting them, they seem extremely similar characters. Aerial mobility, aerial grab, heavy, poor ground game, not a big fan of big swords.

On that point, I play a variety of swordies, and while I think :ultyounglink: :ulttoonlink: :ultmetaknight: all have a winning matchup vs :ultyoshi: , it isn't because of a sword. Yoshi's fair stretches out enough that I'm afraid of trading with it, and all three of them will lose trying to trade punches with dinosaurs. But the little Links can put out multiple hitboxes offstage, edgeguarding armored double jumps easily. Metaknight just has great combos on Yosh's physics archetype. I also play :ultpit: but think he loses to Yoshi's, because the sword isn't comfortably long enough to matter, and there's no mitigating issue other than trying to f-air the d-jump.

Wario's side aerials don't stretch out like Yoshi's, so short swords still do good work, but the nasty edgeguarding/comboing aspect isn't there.

But I'm never afraid when fighting Yoshi. Not just because Wario has a nuke, but because Yoshi lacks good carry combos that take me offstage from anywhere like Puff and Wario can do.

Yoshi's ground game lacks that basic strike or grab mix-up that every FG character everywhere can do. If Yoshi's next to me he'll jab, if he's 2 steps away, grab. His poor range on strikes + his poor startup on grab force this.

I feel like I always know what Yoshi is going to do at all times in a match based purely on where we're at in relation to each other. Heck, his Cloud-esque recovery means I'm not even afraid of edgeguards.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Jun 25, 2014
Messages
607
NNID
User7a1
Well, if Wario up-tilts you it might be worth it to go for a Rest in case he Wafts, I guess? Though he might bait it and then punish your missed Rest. I wonder how hard that would be to time anyway?
Using Rest as a combo breaker is a strange thing in these kinds of situations (although I prefer think to think of Rest as a counter instead to not spam it like a Mario N-air) because of the risk-reward from both Puff and her opponent. It can work (she can also Rest some combos from characters like Mario, Falco, and Inkling), and it can be worth going for it, but it also depends on if Rest is baited, like you said. It's a guessing game between both the Puff player and the opponent, but people usually don't prepare for Rest breaking combos the first time around. It probably wouldn't be too hard to time considering Wario's fat hurtbox.
 
Last edited:

SKX31

Smash Master
Joined
Feb 22, 2019
Messages
3,462
Location
Sweden
SWT Central American South Qualifiers are running right now, here's Top 16:

WB:

Sonix :ultsonic: πŸ‡©πŸ‡΄ vs. Wolfen :ultbanjokazooie: πŸ‡ΈπŸ‡»
Capitancito :ultgunner: πŸ‡©πŸ‡΄ vs. Morsalsa :ultwolf: πŸ‡¨πŸ‡·
Yei :ultpalutena: πŸ‡¨πŸ‡· vs. Echofire :ultness: πŸ‡­πŸ‡³
ShinyMark :ultpikachu: πŸ‡¬πŸ‡Ή vs. Tuitt :ultrobin: πŸ‡΅πŸ‡·


LB:

Blender :ultpalutena: πŸ‡΅πŸ‡· vs. Kira :ultpikachu: πŸ‡ΈπŸ‡» (Winner faces the loser of Capitancito vs. Moralsa)
Mtkat :ultpalutena: πŸ‡¨πŸ‡· vs. Ed :ultgnw: πŸ‡­πŸ‡³ (Mtkat won 3-0, will face the loser of Sonix vs. Wolfen)
Majestic Souls :ultyounglink: πŸ‡­πŸ‡³ vs. Mykonis :ultbayonetta: πŸ‡­πŸ‡³ (Mykonis won 3-1, will face the loser of Shinymark vs. Tuitt)
Shawn :ultgreninja: / :ultfox: πŸ‡­πŸ‡³ vs. Noway :ultzelda: / :ultrosalina: πŸ‡΅πŸ‡¦ (Shawn won 3-2, will face the loser of Yei vs. Echofire)

Top 6 of this Qualifier + Top 2 from this Region's last chance qualifier will advance to the Central American regional, and face of against the 8 who qualified from Mexico. A group that includes MKleo, Maister and Sparg0, so this qualifier is very important for these players.
 
Last edited:

Cap'n Jack

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 23, 2015
Messages
1,344
SWT Central American South Qualifiers are running right now, here's Top 16:

WB:

Sonix :ultsonic: πŸ‡©πŸ‡΄ vs. Wolfen :ultbanjokazooie: πŸ‡ΈπŸ‡»
Capitancito :ultgunner: πŸ‡©πŸ‡΄ vs. Morsalsa :ultwolf: πŸ‡¨πŸ‡·
Yei :ultpalutena: πŸ‡¨πŸ‡· vs. Echofire :ultness: πŸ‡­πŸ‡³
ShinyMark :ultpikachu: πŸ‡¬πŸ‡Ή vs. Tuitt :ultrobin: πŸ‡΅πŸ‡·


LB:

Blender :ultpalutena: πŸ‡΅πŸ‡· vs. Kira :ultpikachu: πŸ‡ΈπŸ‡» (Winner faces the loser of Capitancito vs. Moralsa)
Mtkat :ultpalutena: πŸ‡¨πŸ‡· vs. Ed :ultgnw: πŸ‡­πŸ‡³ (Mtkat won 3-0, will face the loser of Sonix vs. Wolfen)
Majestic Souls :ultyounglink: πŸ‡­πŸ‡³ vs. Mykonis :ultbayonetta: πŸ‡­πŸ‡³ (Mykonis won 3-1, will face the loser of Shinymark vs. Tuitt)
Shawn :ultgreninja: / :ultfox: πŸ‡­πŸ‡³ vs. Noway :ultzelda: / :ultrosalina: πŸ‡΅πŸ‡¦ (Shawn won 3-2, will face the loser of Yei vs. Echofire)

Top 6 of this Qualifier + Top 2 from this Region's last chance qualifier will advance to the Central American regional, and face of against the 8 who qualified from Mexico. A group that includes MKleo, Maister and Sparg0, so this qualifier is very important for these players.
Yaaaas a :ultbanjokazooie: rep!
 
Top Bottom