Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Ziodyne 21]

Yeah, that's the point I was trying to make. Absolute perfect play can make a lot of characters unstoppable but it's not realistic. So if they're trying to call Min Min top or even Shulk top tier solely based on how they can theoretically perform in perfect form then I'm not buying it. Human error will always be a factor. Consistency of the mechanics, options, and overall kit of a character is much more realistic. What a competent player can do consistently with what said character provides them.

I'm not a fan of this whole "perfect play" thing either.

I recall similar arguments made in Smash 4 that Sheik could of been the best character in the game if sue could be played 100% perfect all the time. 8f you played so she was perfectly punishable If you could pull of her optimal combos and confirms 100% perfectly, if you could successfully ledgetrap 100% perfectly and so on

But alas even the best players make mistakes, and Smash 4 Bayo was turn opponents mistakes into 0-death conversions

 

[Tri Knight]

I recall similar arguments made in Smash 4 that Sheik could of been the best character in the game if sue could be played 100% perfect all the time. 8f you played so she was perfectly punishable If you could pull of her optimal combos and confirms 100% perfectly, if you could successfully ledgetrap 100% perfectly and so on

But alas even the best players make mistakes, and Smash 4 Bayo was turn opponents mistakes into 0-death conversions

Yep, perfect play means absolutely nothing when I can do the same thing but much better with less effort. Character difficulty can play a big role in viability the higher you go.

 

[meleebrawler]

Rollback netcode can be thought of as the ability to accept inputs from the past as well as the present, rewinding and resimulating time to both handle inconsistencies and mask delay.

It has three requirements:

1. Deterministic game state
2. Hardware that can execute the game state at 10x speed for 10 frames of rollback, or so forth
3. Manual handling of all gameplay effects not suited to "rewinding"

#1 is not simple, but all fighting games (including Smash) already do this. This is how replays work. So really, this discussion is only about the other 2.


#2 is a a big one, huge. If you want to accept an input that was supposed to happen 6 frames ago, you have to be able to recalculate every part of those 6 frame--in 1 actual frame. So the hardware has to be capable of running the game X times faster than normal, where X is the total number of frames you want to be able to roll back. This is why putting rollback on an old game (running on CPUs 20 years more advanced) is far more feasible and requires less engineering work.

This is a great oversimplification, but Smash Ultimate runs at 60 frames per second. To be able to rollback an additional 7 frames, the CPU would need to be able to run the same game at 480 frames per second. This is a great feat for a modern game on modern hardware, and requires a lot of special engineering. For the humble Switch CPU, running a far more busy 8-player fighting game, it's a challenge that has simply not been done.


Even if you acheived that, it still leaves #3. The example I like to give is camera effects. You know all those zoom effects Ultimate does? Rolling back any sort of camera effect would be awful and nausiating. So all the zoom effects have to be re-tuned around your rollback delay, and even normal camera behavior would have to be rewritten to not jump around with the game state changes. Sound effects also have to get a massive amount of attention to be polished--cutting off and jumping into sound effects mid-frame is jarring and bad. Particles are often a problem, since particle systems often have non-deterministic components in their libraries.

This isn't even getting into the weird gameplay design decisions. The Mortal Kombat guys actually refuse to rollback game-ending hits as policy, due to how aggrivating that would be. This sleight of hand wouldn't work with Smash.

#3 is a ton of work; for the amount of content in Ultimate it would easily amount to several engineers working for at least 2 years. But even that is nothing compared to #2: making a 60fps Switch game run at 8x speed on a Switch.


tl;dr - Asking the devs to put rollback in Smash Ultimate is like asking your mechanic to put an electric engine in your tricked-out 2006 Chevy Silverado. It's just, not how any of that works--but if it's any consolation their future trucks will be electric.

The way you describe this actually makes me believe that the "electric truck", or fully featured Smash game with rollback, simply is not something we can expect in the near future, or maybe even this decade. Because pigs will fly before they ever give up all those things you just described that make rollback hard, when said things are all major reasons the majority of the customer base loves in the current product, as much as the minority of the serious electric engine advocates would love to strip them if given the chance. So we either get something like an "electric buggy" (heavily stripped down version of our current Smash) that will only appeal to a niche portion of the people who like your trucks, or an "electric motorcycle" (something that plays completely different to Smash, even with the same branding) to pull in new customers.

I wonder if the Japan playerbase and their extreme, almost comical hatred of Min-Min was partly due to ProtoBaham winning an offline tournament using just her. Becasue Zackray did the same thing with Sepiroth and everyone seems ambivalent sbout that.

Once thing I noticed about Japan player tier-lists is that they seem to be highly influenced and even biased by raw results and players from their region

For example in SFV the game recently entered "Season 5" a update that was a balance patch that also introduced a brand new system mechanic in V-Shift a defensive/evasion option A long-standing criticism of SFV was that the game had to few defensive options and was dominated by offense and 50/50 mixups. V-shift was introduced to try to alleviate all that

So a little while back many top Japan players posted their SFV tier-lists and had big-guy grapplers like Zangeif and Abigail (who was placed as the best in more than one example) at the top, despite getting nerfs and being negatively impacted by all the changes in the patch.

Well part of the reason is that they have very strong players like Itazan and StormKubo who are pretty dominant in the region. So the take their strong resultsin Japan heavily into their tier lists. Even when their results and theory are weaker outside of Japan It could be why they seem to rank a character Laura somewhat low despite the character winning the last offline Capcom Cup and is considered a strong character otherwise. There are hardly any notable Laura players in Japan so they do not really noticed her. Despite the character winning the biggest and notable tournamet in the game


Okay i kinda rambled on a big tangent on an entirely different game .But you can likey see similarities on how Japan smash pro-players construct their opinions on tier lists

Unrelated to the point here, but the only thing V-Shift makes me think of in terms of Smash is how funny it was that Mythra ended up having something very similar, if only visually, to it.

 

[Djmarcus44]

NotLiquid I am pretty sure Gunner has also gotten some zoner salt in Japan. I haven't translated the comments myself, but I have seen someone else comment about Gunner getting hated on in this video.

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Frihetsanka Why do you think that Brawler is the best mii?

 

[Frihetsanka]

Frihetsanka Why do you think that Brawler is the best mii?

I don't think highly of Mii Swordfighter (who seems to be a gimmicky character with significant flaws) or Mii Gunner offline (online is another story). Meanwhile, Mii Brawler has some pretty good stats, nice specials, good ledgetrapping, etc etc. Probably enough to make Brawler a mid tier (and Swordfighter/Gunner low tiers or low-mid tiers, I suppose).

Online nerfs Brawler and buffs Gunner (and probably Swordfighter), so online it might be a different story.

Interesting video.

 

[RonNewcomb]

Unrelated to the point here, but the only thing V-Shift makes me think of in terms of Smash is how funny it was that Mythra ended up having something very similar, if only visually, to it.

They're all copying the crazy popularity of UI Goku in DBFZ.

Re: rollback, you can re-architect the game so the gameplay updates are separate from the rendering of the result. Rendering is the expensive part for the hardware. Most every FPS already separates the two, since rendering one frame can take arbitrarily long due to seeing lots of detail running off into the distance. But that is, of course, a re-architecting. Lots of man-hours. And handling created things like projectiles, and then correctly rolling back their creation, is a bookkeeping headache specific to rollback. And that's not even getting into the 3+ players problems such as peer-to-peer networking becoming exponentially less attractive. (Is there a single rollback game in existence with more than 2 players?) Now turn on items, on High.

 

[The_Bookworm]

I don't think highly of Mii Swordfighter (who seems to be a gimmicky character with significant flaws) or Mii Gunner offline (online is another story). Meanwhile, Mii Brawler has some pretty good stats, nice specials, good ledgetrapping, etc etc. Probably enough to make Brawler a mid tier (and Swordfighter/Gunner low tiers or low-mid tiers, I suppose).

Online nerfs Brawler and buffs Gunner (and probably Swordfighter), so online it might be a different story.

Interesting video.

That actually does pretty much line-up with my current opinion on the Mii Fighters, with Brawler mid tier, Gunner low-mid/upper-low, and Swordfighter low tier.

I also reflect on the online/offline difference. Playing Mii Brawler online feels like a struggle to me. Playing Fox online at a competent level is a notoriously difficult task, so playing the awkward hybrid of Fox and Mario is bound to be a pain to play online with.
Whereas playing Mii Swordfighter online felt much easier. It is likely also a reflectance of my competency with the character in comparison to Brawler, but standing back and throwing Chakrams is a much easier playstyle to stomach online.
I haven't really played Mii Gunner much at all (which is funny since I do play the character in SSB4), but I indeed imagine the character being much better online than offline, as the character's keepaway tools becomes much more difficult to deal with extra input lag. The Gunner players popping off in some online events lately is a reflectance of this.


A bit off topic, but unlike (mainly Mythra), who is very likely at their best offline, in my opinion is a noticeably better character online than offline. It only really comes down to one significant factor: his best move in Minecart is a much more difficult move to deal with extra input delay. The character will also mash buttons on the face of the opponent with less response.
Outside of maybe optimal block placements, I also don't really see much benefit the character gets from moving to offline. Projectile spam might be a bit easier to deal with less input lag, but I think the character will still have similar issues dealing with it regardless.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Seems MkLeo wants to play Pyra/Mythra (alongside Joker) and will probably drop Byleth:

Is it finally time to stop playing trashy byleth? I guess so...

— LG | MkLeo (@Mkleosb) March 23, 2021

 

[Thinkaman]

Re: rollback, you can re-architect the game so the gameplay updates are separate from the rendering of the result. Rendering is the expensive part for the hardware. Most every FPS already separates the two, since rendering one frame can take arbitrarily long due to seeing lots of detail running off into the distance

Short answer, it's already separate. We're only taking about the CPU requirements, nothing on the GPU. (Thankfully; optimizing the CPU 5x would be incredible, speeding up the GPU 5x would be impossible.)

Long answer, it's more complicated and intertwined than you might think. 2D rendered games are super easy, the hitboxes technically have nothing to do with the sprites. But 3D fighters like smash have hitboxes attached to bones. If you want to get hitbox positions, you have to run the animation, interpolate those frames.

Building from the ground up, you'd want a framework with painfully clever caches and the ability to flag individual bones as dirty such that you only simulate dirty bones and their parents on non-rendered frames. That's radical, but off the top of my head that's the sort of ground-up nuttiness you'd be chasing to fit the fidelity+count of ultimate's 3d models into a 3ms CPU frame budget.

It's not insane, and not TOO far off from the impressive optimizations that have been achieved to build rollback in recent modern engines. But it would be two steps father.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Seems MkLeo wants to play Pyra/Mythra (alongside Joker) and will probably drop Byleth:

Is it finally time to stop playing trashy byleth? I guess so...

— LG | MkLeo (@Mkleosb) March 23, 2021

If he's smart, he'll optimize Pyra online, while focussing his Mythra work for when offline launches off again.

 

[Tri Knight]

Seems MkLeo wants to play Pyra/Mythra (alongside Joker) and will probably drop Byleth:

Well, if the BaeBlades aren't top tier already, now they will be.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

ESAM's tier list

11.0 tier list

Yes falcon is top 15

Mythra/pyra have nowhere to go but up pic.twitter.com/DWoXX7JFMN

— ESAM (@imESAM) March 22, 2021

 

[duxx]

Gimr released a video yesterday talking about Pyra's footstool punishes off of Side+B. Fully optimized, if you miss a tech at 0% you take 83% percent. Tech in place at 0% and you take 60%. Miss a tech at 30% or 50% and you just die. Even if you do tech, Dair -> Up Smash covers almost every option at mid percents. I'd definitely recommend checking out the video if you haven't already, since he explains everything super well and in depth

 

[The_Bookworm]

ESAM's tier list

11.0 tier list

Yes falcon is top 15

Mythra/pyra have nowhere to go but up pic.twitter.com/DWoXX7JFMN

— ESAM (@imESAM) March 22, 2021

For an ESAM tier list, this is actually pretty good. However, there are three main question marks for me in this list:
Him placing at top tier.
I also don't think is top 15 levels of good, but still very good.
is ranked pretty dang low. ESAM believes that the nerfs impacted her that much, when in reality, it didn't really change much of anything.

Not quite sure about the decision to have Pyra and Mythra be ranked separately, but as long as he has a combined placement of the two, I am fine with it.

 

[Kokiden]

How many times has Thinkaman gone over the fact that they probably literally can't make the online better than it is currently, or at least not to a degree that will satisfy competitive players? At least not without tearing the whole game down to rebuild it from scratch?

That would assume that I come here all the time, and that I've read every post that user makes.

Spoiler

I don't.

 

[Tri Knight]

I appreciate that ESAM, for eternity, will believe that Pikachu is the best character in all of Smash Bros. I know it's probably meme-worthy but I do have real respect for complete dedication to a character like that.

Gotta say, I've been seeing a lot of tier lists lately and I'm really surprised with how a lot of characters haven't dropped off in the general consensus after all this time.

 

[blackghost]

Am I missing something with falcon? how does his buffs make him suddenly top 15?

Pyra ranked an entire tier under Ike is questionable at best imo.

Exam seems to be following the already questionableogic that Mythra carries pyra. But I'm curious how do you rank them individually in mid and high and then combined they become an elite top 15 character? That makes me question trainer placement even more.

Pyra zelda Bayonetta. There's no chance these three characters are at the same level. Like 0 percent chance. One of these for sure doesn't belong.
Robin is low.
Shiek is high.
Esam still has a lot of faith in trainer which I can't agree with.

 

[Wunderwaft]

For an ESAM tier list, this is actually pretty good. However, there are three main question marks for me in this list:
Him placing at top tier.

ESAM said before that if you're top 20 then you're top tier in his book, which would explain Steve's placement. I'd personally just put Steve at high tier but that's just me, the character's meta is still being explored to this day and he's still not close to being fully optimized.

A lot of people tend to think cart is his best tool, but tbh Steve's true busted tool is blocks. Block cancelling for example is a cool ass tech where you can save resources and cancel the end lag of dtilt and dsmash. Problem is that the online delay messes up the timing of inputs so as a result this tech isn't as explored as it should be since we're currently living in an online environment.

I can see Steve being top tier once his potential© is reached, but uhh he's gonna need a better environment than the current one lol

 

[MrGameguycolor]

is ranked pretty dang low. ESAM believes that the nerfs impacted her that much, when in reality, it didn't really change much of anything.

That's kind of condescending, you should probably work on your wording.

But anyway, yeah it's pretty good.
There's a few eye-brow raisers like MK, Marth, and ranking Pythra separately, but eh...
Smash Ultimate tier list.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Pyra\Mythra have been the talk of the entire community. But Tweek has been doing work with Sephiroth and finding tech for his co-main

As if Sepiroth needed more ways to edgetrap and 2-frame you. Octoslash is basically Wolf's pre-patched up-b. Peoples opinion of Seph will change once er get proper offline play

 

[SwagGuy99]

Tsmusuto (best Dr. Mario player in the world) released a tier list for Ultimate. There's a lot of really weird character placements here, even compared to a lot of the tier lists I've seen Japanese players put out.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[The_Bookworm]

Tsmusuto (best Dr. Mario player in the world) released a tier list for Ultimate. There's a lot of really weird character placements here, even compared to a lot of the tier lists I've seen Japanese players put out.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Considering how much Mii Gunner he plays, I am kinda surprised that he places it that low in his list, especially when you consider that Dr. Mario placement.

 

[SwagGuy99]

Considering how much Mii Gunner he plays, I am kinda surprised that he places it that low in his list, especially when you consider that Dr. Mario placement.

The Mii Gunner placement doesn't surprise me as much. Based on his 3332 Gunner matchup chart from a few patches ago (from my understanding 3332 is considered the best combination of specials by at least some Gunner players) it doesn't make Gunner look like that good of a character.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

There was a problem fetching the tweet

The only relevant characters that Tsumusto thinks Gunner beats are Peach and PT, with Marcina being between slightly winning and even as well. He doesn't think Gunner does well against a lot of relevant characters, and he also has Gunner losing to a combination of relevant and not relevant characters. His Dr. Mario matchup chart doesn't seem as negative as the Gunner one to me by comparison, because of how many relevant characters he has as even matchups as opposed to losing like in his matchup chart for Gunner.

Edit: Realize I linked the same matchup chart twice, I meant to link both his Gunner and Doc one.

 

[WatwatBreton]

As "whack" as you could consider some character placements (biggest outlier for me would be Mario being that low lol that character is mad good), I gotta say I find japanese tier list very refreshing overall. Like even if you don't agree with everything you can usually see the reasoning behind it? At least contrasted with most western tier lists which seem a biiiit copypasted from each other and then people argue in the comments about the few spots that aren't like the reddit list lmao.

My main guess when looking at Tsmusuto's list (or japanese lists in general) is how they value extremely-good-options very highly. Stuff like zss flip kick, shulk monado nonsense, palutena's invincible whatevers, or even lower with Samus charge shot and rosaluma's jank potential (dabuz twitter clips are suuper scary).
These are tools that are matchup defining and lack clear counterplay against the whole cast (flip kick will just reset to neutral against most characters period and circle camp some). Meanwhile characters that have good options but that are still overall beatable with a strict solid gameplan (falcon comes to mind, not surprised they'd rate ike that low...) seem lower ranked. You can avoid ike nairs, but you can't avoid monado shield out of combos if your character can't deal with it. I'm sure smarter people than me can phrase this better lol and maybe I'm wrong, but I would say it's "gamebreaking tools" vs "ball of stats".

Also maybe I'm just very enthusiastic of seeing a list that puts pikachu rob and marth at their deserved spot there's some bias here

 

[StrangeKitten]

It's been a couple days since I checked this thread. I'm caught up now, so I'd like to give my thoughts on a couple characters:

: I agree that it's quite absurd of Japan to act like she's so brokenly good. She's just a grade-A turtler, which is harder to get in on with Japan's focus on defensive play as opposed to America's focus on aggressive play. She has very few options to help her out in disadvantage, and the worst tether recovery in the game. In fact, I find her disadvantage and recovery to be among the worst in the game, because her air stats are really bad. This is simply something I don't think Japan, or any region for that matter, has had much chance to exploit yet, because juggling and edgeguarding, and even ledgetrapping into an edgeguard, are far easier to pull off in an offline environment. I still think Min Min is very good despite this, but it's a big weakness that makes me hesitant to rank her highly within top tier.

: Is a big benefactor from online. He does really well against slow characters and big bodies, and struggles against fast characters. Well look at that, online buffs characters he's good against and nerfs characters he's bad against. Even Sonic suffers a bit, because this is a matchup where the campy style is bad, and you'd rather rush him down before he gets gold and diamond. And we all know which style of Sonic gets buffed and which style gets nerfed online. Steve's poor mobility is also going to be harder to exploit in an online environment. That said, he is one of the only characters with both a ton of low% true combos and strong kill power, in addition to having a pretty good disadvantage state thanks to blocks, anvil, and an excellent recovery. So while I think he has the potential to be a really good character, I don't think he's quite the top tier menace he may appear to be today, because we need to see offline counterplay against him develop.

And one last thing, I agree that basing stuff off of "perfect play" just isn't a good idea. Going by that logic, I, as a mid-level player, could beat ESAM's Pikachu with my Ganondorf if I played perfectly. Perfect play doesn't exist and never will. Melee is coming up on two decades of existence, and we're not seeing perfect Fox. You have to base things on what high- and top- level players can do, basically asking yourself "What is this character like if played well, and what happens if their opponent plays equally well?" which is admittedly a lot of theory, but better than theorizing that such-and-such character is the best if "played perfectly".

 

[Djmarcus44]

Katakiri has a much higher opinion on Gunner. Gunner's matchup spreads vary considerably based on the player and the moveset. My opinion on Gunner is on the higher end of the spectrum based on my labbing of Gunner's combos and kill confirms. Realizing how arm rocket's good frame data helps Gunner's disadvantage is another strong factor for my opinion on Gunner. Katakiri's opinion on Gunner is a little bit higher than mine, but he also has provided some good results and a combo video to add substance to his claims.

I have finally gotten a short video of the up throw to up air kill confirm that I have mentioned previously. It is basically a better version of Inkling's up throw to up air confirm.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/516353528197808158/819040806370672650/20210307_234654_1.mp4.mov

https://mobile.twitter.com/KatakiriG/status/1256633896948715530

SwagGuy99 It is decently common for players to learn Gunner without looking to learn the character's combo game and struggle to kill because they don't know Gunner's kill confirms. This is the most common reason why some Gunner players have a low opinion on the character. Tsumusuto is definitely one of the better players with Gunner, but I don't see him incorporate Gunner's confirms into his gameplay. He also mentioned Bowser, Mega Man, and Terry as high tier winning matchups.

The_Bookworm Gunner's online results have been consistently good during the pandemic. I would honestly consider the convenience of entering online tournaments a bigger factor in Gunner's increased play than the increased difficulty in avoiding projectiles. Some of the players doing well in online tournaments have been strong players for Gunner's discord crew that have gotten opportunities to play in bigger online events.

Frihetsanka Can you go into more detail about your opinions on each mii?

 

[Frihetsanka]

https://mobile.twitter.com/KatakiriG/status/1256633896948715530

Going by that MU chart, Mii Gunner sure looks like a character that is at least top 15. That's a very interesting take, one that I would be reluctant to agree with. Seems that's what Katakiri actually thinks though, "Top 20 free". Is Mii Gunner slept on, or is it another case of a mid tier main overrating their character?

Pokecheese is not as optimistic:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

I feel like most mid tier characters will have people preaching how their character is actually a secret high tier. Characters like Ike, Corrin, Villager, Mewtwo, Pit, Toon Link, Falco, Duck Hunt, Luigi, Mii Brawler, Robin, Bowser, Meta Knight, Rosalina, Steve, Terry, Link, Ness, etc etc... Sure, some of them might be high tier, but unless you consider like, top 50 high tier, then a lot of characters will not be high tier (personally I draw the line around top 30, meaning that many characters that are pretty good and are like #33 would be mid tier rather than high tier).

Is Mii Gunner a high tier? So far I have little reason to believe that they are. They are probably a mid tier that feels good to play, have some good stuff, and then people look at that sick stuff and think that "Wow, this character is really good, secret high tier!". But the thing is, you have like 50-60 characters that have some really good stuff, even Lucas has some really good stuff (and some people thinking he's a secret high tier). I can respect having faith in your character, but realistically speaking there's a limited amount of high tier spots, and some characters are not good enough to be high tier.

(Yeah, I think Corrin is a mid tier. I might do a writeup later with my reasoning why.)

Can you go into more detail about your opinions on each mii?

Eh. Don't sleep on them, but there are better characters out there. Mii Brawler is kind of cool (I play him occasionally), Gunner and Swordfighter I'm not a fan of (zoners but their zoning game isn't that interesting in my opinion).

At least Mii Legality is pretty much universally accepted this time. In Smash 4 many Mii players were restricted to 1111 Miis...

 

[NotLiquid]

Nintendo Switchソフト『大乱闘スマッシュブラザーズ SPECIAL』の更新データVer.11.0.1の配信を開始しました。更新内容についてはこちらのページをご覧ください。 https://t.co/0i8dOn0LR1 pic.twitter.com/o5g1pfyRIq

— 任天堂サポート (@nintendo_cs) March 24, 2021

Hope people didn't get excited about that totally not accidental shadow buff that eliminated Wii Fit's landing lag on her Header.

 

[KirbySquad101]

I remember someone (Zachmac, I think?) mentioning a while ago that high tier/top tier at times feel quite big for what both terms constitute (particularly top tier, which is meant to be an "extreme", like how bottom tier is), and this honestly doesn't feel anymore apparent than with both Ramin's and ESAM's tier lists. Is top tier really "top tier", if, as an extreme, it covers up nearly 1/3rd of the cast (heck it's bigger than his high tier section)? Compare this to ESAM's bottom tier section, another extreme that actually looks like one, where he's only covering up 3 characters. And while Ramin's top tier section is far more condensed than ESAM's (unless you count BL as top tier), Ramin's high tier really doesn't feel high tier when you consider that it starts nearing bottom 25 the farther you go down, which, if we're considering mid-tier as the... well, midsection, is well below that threshold.

Granted, I get why their tier lists are formatted like this. For example, I feel like any of the characters ESAM has in "top tier" (barring maybe Captain Falcon, Inkling, and Chrom, although I do think all three are underrated) make a decent enough case for being a part of that threshold. I don't really mind the structure of the lists themselves or even the placements to a lesser extent despite nitpicks. My main thing is that our current labels used to evaluate each characters's prowess (top tier, high tier, etc.) - more specifically within the context of Ultimate's power gaps and the constant vouches made for nearly every characters' viability - feel arbitrary at best, and misleading at worst.

I feel like categorizing characters in such a way that doesn't artificially limit how many characters belong in that section within the confounds of our current labels might actually be the way to go. I remember someone on Twitter mentioning that characters should instead be categorized as ultra-viable, viable, and non-viable, and while I feel like that definition still feels a little too broad, I think it's a better format than what we currently have. Perhaps one category could be labeled as "capable of winning/consistently place at top 8 without a secondary", while the next one could be labeled as "capable of winning but might require a secondary for harder MUs"? Then ESAM's highest tier would feel more explanatory and also less jarring:

Ultra-viable (i.e. Can win tourneys/place top 8 consistently without a secondary):
(pretend this is Pythra)

I'm not quite sure if this is the perfect solution (I feel like you can could probably do something more accurate in terms of explanations). I'm not even fully sure if it's a big enough problem to merit a solution, but I do think more explanatory labels would help justify the structure of our current lists and it also gives audiences a better idea of a top player's mindset when they design such gaps between characters.

 

[SwagGuy99]

Nintendo Switchソフト『大乱闘スマッシュブラザーズ SPECIAL』の更新データVer.11.0.1の配信を開始しました。更新内容についてはこちらのページをご覧ください。 https://t.co/0i8dOn0LR1 pic.twitter.com/o5g1pfyRIq

— 任天堂サポート (@nintendo_cs) March 24, 2021

Hope people didn't get excited about that totally not accidental shadow buff that eliminated Wii Fit's landing lag on her Header.

As far as I know this update only changed one thing: fixing the unintentional change that gave Wii Fit's header 4 frames of landing lag instead of 9.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Nintendo Switchソフト『大乱闘スマッシュブラザーズ SPECIAL』の更新データVer.11.0.1の配信を開始しました。更新内容についてはこちらのページをご覧ください。 https://t.co/0i8dOn0LR1 pic.twitter.com/o5g1pfyRIq

— 任天堂サポート (@nintendo_cs) March 24, 2021

Hope people didn't get excited about that totally not accidental shadow buff that eliminated Wii Fit's landing lag on her Header.

It is hard to tell if that will happen. From my point of view, the removal of Wii Fit's side B landing lag was done to fix a bug involving the move, but who knows?

Either way, this is likely just going to be bug fixes, such as the Century Smash softlock that the Aegis girls can do.

 

[Nobie]

Something just dawned on me and Smash Ultimate Mewtwo: The reason they probably won't remove Mewtwo's tail hurtbox is that increasing it from Smash 4 was specifically done to change Mewtwo from being effectively a swordsman.

Smash 4 Mewtwo's tail was effectively a sword, and coming into Ultimate, they probably didn't want a high-mobility swordsman with a fantastic projectile and kill throws, just out of a sense of balance. And they can't reduce that hurtbox without drastically altering most of Mewtwo's neutral interactions. I'd argue that getting clipped while running away or having the tail extended is just a side consequence of ask this.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Something just dawned on me and Smash Ultimate Mewtwo: The reason they probably won't remove Mewtwo's tail hurtbox is that increasing it from Smash 4 was specifically done to change Mewtwo from being effectively a swordsman.

Smash 4 Mewtwo's tail was effectively a sword, and coming into Ultimate, they probably didn't want a high-mobility swordsman with a fantastic projectile and kill throws, just out of a sense of balance. And they can't reduce that hurtbox without drastically altering most of Mewtwo's neutral interactions. I'd argue that getting clipped while running away or having the tail extended is just a side consequence of ask this.

I guess so, but also kinda not really... it is weird.

The hurtbox on SSB4 Mewtwo's tail was still only about half-way on the tail, so it was also susceptible to weird hurtbox extensions. I have seen instances of janky hurtbox extensions with SSB4 Mewtwo's tail as well.

I think part of why SSB4 Mewtwo was able to get away with it more directly is because with the hurtbox being about half-way across the tail, it allows it to abuse the Z-axis more. For example, when Ultimate Mewtwo's tail hurtbox got slightly reduced at 4.0.0 (it was that long ago), suddenly the tail was able to phase through a Bumper using a back air, thanks to it now being short enough to abuse the Z-axis.

But in the end, I think it all comes down to the fact that Mewtwo simply hates Ultimate's engine.
He hates that dashing repositioning is such an important thing now, since it forces him to put his tail in more vulnerable positions now.
He hates that there is now a backwards facing hurtbox animation for stuff like multi-hits.
Most importantly, he hates that you can now only airdodge once, and his floaty nature gives him one of the worst airdodges in the game, as opposed to his broken one from SSB4.

If the tail hurtbox nerf happened in SSB4, I bet many players will simply dismiss the change.
But now, Ultimate's changes forces him to endure the full power of being a light character with a huge hurtbox, and being floaty on top of that.

The unfortunate part is that there is no real, concrete fix to this.
Reducing the hurtbox further would help, but it will not be a true fix.
The true fix to these issues is adjusting Mewtwo in ways that disobeys the universal laws of the game, aka in ways that the devs are likely never going to do. For example giving Mewtwo a much faster and more intangible airdodge that disobeys his physics, and even then, I am not sure if this will fully fix this issue. Puff at 6.0.0 got a buff to its airdodge, but it was very minuscule and it remains true to its physics, aka still the worst airdodge in the game by a country mile.

They could also potentially outright remove the tail hurtbox. But as already mentioned, the dev team likely doesn't want a super-high mobility, huge ranged swordfighter, that has an amazing projectile, and excellent KO power, to emerge. If Mewtwo was able to be top tier in SSB4 with only half of his tail being a hurtbox, then it is very likely that Ultimate Mewtwo's tail hurtbox isn't going to be any smaller than that, assuming that it will be adjusted again.

 

[Aaron1997]

I can't believe i'm making this but we will have a offline Major this week!

篝火#3 | Details (smash.gg)

Kagabiri 3 Notables

Zackray
Tea
Kameme
Paseriman
Kome
Abadango
KEN
Raito
Shky
Atelier
Takera
Lea
Kuro
Choco
Lunamado
Tsu
Akakikusu
Tk3
HERO
Kept
Jogibu
DIO
Umeki
Eim
Yuzu
Repo
DoubleA
RAIN
Rotsuku
Suinoko
huto
Nukoeru
Arika
Aiba
Akasa
Kisa
Yamanyon
Mao
Syumai
Hasuiro
Rom
FSann
MASA
Tet
Ark
Ly

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Lea's Sephiroth MU chart

セフィロスMU
オンライン基準です
ホムヒカは微不利の下のほう pic.twitter.com/Wd0xr9ZaLp

— れあ (@lea_gekkouga) March 24, 2021

I assume loses is the first one, even is in the middle and wins is the one at the end.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

I’ve always advocated that a tier grid is more relevant and accurate for placing characters viability than dated and traditional tier lists. Something to keep in mind is that this game has ALOT of characters, tiers are absolutely going to feel bloated as a result, especially when a large percentage of the roster aren’t considered even weak characters that you’d see in traditional “low” or “bottom”. If you have a roster of 1000 characters and take top 10% of the roster as a top tier that’s still 100 characters, that’s a large top tier!

I’m just saying this to say I’d rather focus on the contents of the tier rather the name or number of characters in the tier. Is Mario better than all but 10 characters in this game is more relevant to discussion than is Mario number 10 and top tier or number 11 and therefore high tier.

 

[PK Gaming]

I appreciate that ESAM, for eternity, will believe that Pikachu is the best character in all of Smash Bros. I know it's probably meme-worthy but I do have real respect for complete dedication to a character like that.

Ehh

Blindly believing that his favorite character is the best character without data or results to support it is nothing more than a conceit on his part

That's not dedication. Dedication is pouring hours of your life into practice and showing the world that a character is top tier, instead of just repeatedly saying it

 

[Tri Knight]

Ehh

Blindly believing that his favorite character is the best character without data or results to support it is nothing more than a conceit on his part

That's not dedication. Dedication is pouring hours of your life into practice and showing the world that a character is top tier, instead of just repeatedly saying it

Does ESAM not play an integral part in Pikachu's reception in a competitive environment? ESAM's not MkLeo but he's definitely proven that Pikachu can be a danger at top levels and can fit well among the top tiers.

I'm not saying Pikachu is the best character and I even disagree with that notion, but maybe he loves the character that much. I mean he's played Pikachu for a very long time. Or maybe he actually believes a better player could prove that Pikachu is the best. It's certainly blind talk imo, but I wouldn't say it's conceit. I wish my favorite fighters were top tier capable. Doesn't make me conceited.

 

[Space thing]

Lea's Sephiroth MU chart

I assume loses is the first one, even is in the middle and wins is the one at the end.

Yes, this is correct (slight disadvantage, even, slight advantage). He also said it is ordered (except for the slight advantage tier I think?). He also mentions Aegis should be in the lower end of slight disadvantage. That part is interesting because I hear most thinking seph will win that match up for one reason or another (usually due to recovery/edge guard things). Though, in the online era and how early things are, it's hard to really be concrete about any of this.

 

[Rizen]

I agree ESAM's unwillingness to revise his theory that Pikachu is the best character in the game regardless of what happens is pig headed but he's doing exactly what he should be doing to make that case. He's labbing Pika and taking him to tournaments. It's like I've said to people who wanted YL nerfed: if you think he's busted try using him in tournaments and see how far you get.