Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[The_Bookworm]

Something I just noticed is that the Game Awards version of the trailer had the crossover card be Super Smash Bros Ultimate x Final Fantasy.

However, in the version uploaded in Nintendo's official channel, the crossover card changed to be Super Smash Bros Ultimate x Final Fantasy VII, in a similar vein to SSB4 Cloud's reveal trailer.

This is a rather odd thing to do, but I find it fun to find these small tidbits.

 

[StrangeKitten]

Leo released his tier list.

This got overshadowed by the reveal of Sephiroth, but Leo putting Duck Hunt as third worst character baffles me. I'm not even that positive on DH, but third worst? They've got a great projectile game, good disjoint on some moves, and a good nair and up air. They do struggle with killing while being light, and aren't good vs swordies because long range is strong against them, but I feel like DH has enough strengths that seeing them placed so low has me scratching my head. They don't feel all that far off from being really good, if anything. They just need a buff to kill power here and there and maybe slight improvements to other moves.

Also, just a side mark, I've been looking at other's reaction on Sephiroth and I'm curious if anybody has actually played the original Final Fantasy 7. Because I feel like nobody has recognized Safer Sephiroth at the very end of the clip. Everyone's like, who is this? What's going on? Is that Keffka? Come on people, I thought Final Fantasy 7 was one of the most popular PS1 games of all time.

What I find odd is a lot of reactions not realizing it's Sephiroth until he's fully shown. How do people not know it's him the second the music kicks in?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I think samus is really good

This is my contribution to this thread

My bonafides: I came really close to beating WaDi in elite smash on stream, therefore my opinion, like totally matters

(Seriously though Samus rules, I think she's super strong)

 

[StrangeKitten]

I think samus is really good

This is my contribution to this thread

My bonafides: I came really close to beating WaDi in elite smash on stream, therefore my opinion, like totally matters

(Seriously though Samus rules, I think she's super strong)

Agreed. Her projectiles are great, her up air and up B are good at juggle scenarios, her tether grab is honestly really annoying to deal with, her bair either has armor or is really disjointed since it seems like it beats everything when I face her, and she lives for ages between being among the heaviest characters and the wealth of recovery options. Easily on the upper end of high tier.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Agreed. Her projectiles are great, her up air and up B are good at juggle scenarios, her tether grab is honestly really annoying to deal with, her bair either has armor or is really disjointed since it seems like it beats everything when I face her, and she lives for ages between being among the heaviest characters and the wealth of recovery options. Easily on the upper end of high tier.

My favorite thing about Samus is that due to her projectiles and very good anti-airs (fair, up air) you can essentially force a sort of 50/50 in neutral where once you get them to start jumping over your stuff you can just meet them there, fair is such a good normal and does so much damage and up air is a low % combo starter into itself ->up b or into fair on some DI

The way she can just dominate neutral situations is incredible, up-b out of shield is godlike, and it's also fast enough to just be a good burst option when the opponent is above you

Also I think most of her bad matchups aren't that bad because she's bound to win at least some exchanges and she's capable of doing so much off one exchange that you can get back into games quickly. Also with bombs, zair, b-reversals, etc. you can do some really tricky movement stuff and just be really creative and unpredictable with your positioning

She's the best I love it.

 

[StrangeKitten]

ESAM ranking Cloud somewhat low in his most recent tier list just reminds me of how much we overvalue combos at times. It made me think back to a video I watched a long while ago, in which the person asserted that Piranha Plant was bad because it "had no combos". I forget which video it was, but my point is that combos simply aren't that important for some characters. Piranha Plant doesn't need an extensive combo game when it can tack on oodles of damage with a Ptooie and Poison Breath. Cloud doesn't need an extensive combo game when up air and nair juggle well, Cross Slash is doing 15+, his sword controls space well in general, he has Blade Beam and dash attack that cover a tall space and have very little consequence to throwing out, and he has Limit on top of all that. While combos are part of what make characters like Pikachu, Squirtle, and Joker great, they don't matter much for some of the other characters because at the end of the day, you've done 60% regardless.

 

[Wunderwaft]

All I will say about Sephiroth is that all of you better pray his neutral aerial isn't a sword spin like Cloud, because if it is then it's over he's top tier.

 

[StrangeKitten]

Well I'm gonna main Sephi, so I'm hoping for that sweet sword spin!

 

[Rizen]

OT but they shouldn't have had Sephiroth wreck Gleam. He's a big fantasy villain but not bigger than what other characters faced in their games.
S is always a good pick but I'd be lying if I said another sword character interests me.

Rather than speculating about S or the other DLC characters who haven't seen an offline tournament, I'd like to take a step back and talk about (B). MKLeo's been tearing it up online and thinks she's high tier. She probably gets a nice wifi boost, being slow with large hitboxes. B's one of my secondaries who I've used in offline tournaments and fought against so I'll be referring to that context.

Frankly I think she's mid tier but not as good as Leo does. B has a very high reward punish game with strong kill power, especially on tipper Fsmash which can kill at 60% if she reads your ledge getup. No one's better at making these reads than Leo so of course he thinks highly of her. B has great shield pressure too- Dsmash will deplete most of a shield. Sometimes I'll Dsmash twice in a row if the first is shielded because the second is a guaranteed break. Then downB kills extremely early but the armor comes late so it's not good for anything else.
It's also worth mentioning that B's upB is dangerous to challenge offstage because it can grab and spike you from far away. B has a pretty good recovery.

The thing is although B's spear has a long reach it's narrow like the Belmonts. You need to tipper it but the tipper's big so that's not an issue. Attacks like Uair/smash cover a good area above her but don't hit to the sides. Because this B has a hard time vs little vortex characters like the rats. She doesn't have a good way to get them off her and they can slip between her lance attacks. You might have seen Leo's B lose to Maister then her switched to Ike and 6-0ed him; Ike has wide hitboxes and is just a better character. IDK why Leo doesn't use Ike online. B's SideB has a huge hitbox but is slow, punishable on block and weaker than other lance attacks so you have to use it sparingly.
On the flipside large characters can have a difficult time if B zones them with F/Bairs.

B's also fairly slow in frame data with mediocre mobility and average weight. Some of this is made up by high reward on hits but it definitely holds her back when compared to Lucina or Chroy. Bow's good in advantage for things like tech chasing but too slow for neutral.

Overall B's fun and very strong if you outplay your opponent but has real weaknesses that hold her back.

 

[Arthur97]

OT but they shouldn't have had Sephiroth wreck Gleam. He's a big fantasy villain but not bigger than what other characters faced in their games.
S is always a good pick but I'd be lying if I said another sword character interests me.

Rather than speculating about S or the other DLC characters who haven't seen an offline tournament, I'd like to take a step back and talk about (B). MKLeo's been tearing it up online and thinks she's high tier. She probably gets a nice wifi boost, being slow with large hitboxes. B's one of my secondaries who I've used in offline tournaments and fought against so I'll be referring to that context.

Frankly I think she's mid tier but not as good as Leo does. B has a very high reward punish game with strong kill power, especially on tipper Fsmash which can kill at 60% if she reads your ledge getup. No one's better at making these reads than Leo so of course he thinks highly of her. B has great shield pressure too- Dsmash will deplete most of a shield. Sometimes I'll Dsmash twice in a row if the first is shielded because the second is a guaranteed break. Then downB kills extremely early but the armor comes late so it's not good for anything else.
It's also worth mentioning that B's upB is dangerous to challenge offstage because it can grab and spike you from far away. B has a pretty good recovery.

The thing is although B's spear has a long reach it's narrow like the Belmonts. You need to tipper it but the tipper's big so that's not an issue. Attacks like Uair/smash cover a good area above her but don't hit to the sides. Because this B has a hard time vs little vortex characters like the rats. She doesn't have a good way to get them off her and they can slip between her lance attacks. You might have seen Leo's B lose to Maister then her switched to Ike and 6-0ed him; Ike has wide hitboxes and is just a better character. IDK why Leo doesn't use Ike online. B's SideB has a huge hitbox but is slow, punishable on block and weaker than other lance attacks so you have to use it sparingly.
On the flipside large characters can have a difficult time if B zones them with F/Bairs.

B's also fairly slow in frame data with mediocre mobility and average weight. Some of this is made up by high reward on hits but it definitely holds her back when compared to Lucina or Chroy. Bow's good in advantage for things like tech chasing but too slow for neutral.

Overall B's fun and very strong if you outplay your opponent but has real weaknesses that hold her back.

You think that's bad, what about how the roster save for Cloud seemed utterly helpless against this guy?

That said, why the stigma for sword fighters? I can at least comprehend the FE bias, but so long as they are unique, who cares what weapon they use? Granted, this image has not been helped by how they handled Roy/Lucina/Chrom and Young Link/Toon Link, but that's not the weapon's fault, now is it? Is it some misguided notion people have that "fighting" games need to be punching and kicking?

 

[meleebrawler]

You think that's bad, what about how the roster save for Cloud seemed utterly helpless against this guy?

That said, why the stigma for sword fighters? I can at least comprehend the FE bias, but so long as they are unique, who cares what weapon they use? Granted, this image has not been helped by how they handled Roy/Lucina/Chrom and Young Link/Toon Link, but that's not the weapon's fault, now is it? Is it some misguided notion people have that "fighting" games need to be punching and kicking?

That's pretty much how Sephiroth gets treated anywhere outside his own game. Sora in Kingdom Hearts giving everything he has only counts as a "warm-up" for him, to give an idea.

Also, the fighter of the day not seeming completely overpowered is the exception, rather than the rule in Smash trailers.

 

[Arthur97]

That's pretty much how Sephiroth gets treated anywhere outside his own game. Sora in Kingdom Hearts giving everything he has only counts as a "warm-up" for him, to give an idea.

ugh, but he really shouldn't get that kind of billing when among stars bigger than he at least. You expect me to believe he can mop the floor with Kirby? Sonic? Even Mario would probably at least put up a good fight given the RPGs. Then again, Square being Square may have demanded something grandiose.

 

[zeldasmash]

If you count non-canon stuff like spin off's, composite forms or comics: Sonic, Mega Man, Link, Ganondorf, Eight, Samus, Luminary, the Mario cast, Cloud, Sephiroth, Joker, Shulk, Bayonetta, Mewtwo and the Belmonts are stronger then the Kirby cast or at least up to par. Heck with Final Fantasy VII Remake and the ending's implications, Sephiroth is stronger the most of the cast in terms of just the Final Fantasy 7 canon.

 

[meleebrawler]

ugh, but he really shouldn't get that kind of billing when among stars bigger than he at least. You expect me to believe he can mop the floor with Kirby? Sonic? Even Mario would probably at least put up a good fight given the RPGs. Then again, Square being Square may have demanded something grandiose.

That Bowser Jr. trailer must have given you a fit way back when, huh?

 

[Arthur97]

If you count non-canon stuff like spin off's, composite forms or comics: Sonic, Mega Man, Link, Ganondorf, Eight, Samus, Luminary, the Mario cast, Cloud, Sephiroth, Joker, Shulk, Bayonetta, Mewtwo and the Belmonts are stronger then the Kirby cast or at least up to par. Heck with Final Fantasy VII Remake and the ending's implications, Sephiroth is stronger the most of the cast in terms of just the Final Fantasy 7 canon.

Considering Archie Sonic outran time itself and game Sonic can beat a god before going super, yeah, no, Sonic alone should be able to beat him. If you add super than no contest as he can fight something from all points in time at once as luidcrous as that is. Then there's the fact that Cloud can beat Sephiroth, but Cloud could not one shot Galeem. Mario (and Luigi) can defeat a being with literal dream powers, an ancient power from the stars, otherworldly (extra dimensional and terrestrial) invaders, and someone's soul. Bowser can take a dip in a star and only be mildly inconvenienced. Ganondorf can only be killed with very specific means while also wielding the power of a god. Pit slaughters gods for a living. DK can punch moons out of orbit. You mean to tell me this roster combined can't beat him? Shulk, well, spoilers, but Shulk is no pushover. Joker, well, his feats really only apply in an alternate world. With everyone else he'd probably be among the weakest. Gun isn't even real.

Yeah, no, he and Cloud overplayed, but this is not the place to continue this.

That Bowser Jr. trailer must have given you a fit way back when, huh?

Well, considering Jr. didn't one shot a being that can one shot the roster, not exactly comparable I mean, what's the worst that happened? Mega Man got booped by the kart and Mario's shield broke. It also didn't really have the Cloud issue I don't think.

 

[ZephyrZ]

Canonical power levels are silly things to argue in a game like Smash, since they're arbitrary not easily defined or measured.

They wanted to show that Sephiroth was a powerful villain, so they made him cut Galeem in half. Its that simple. And I should also remind you that you can make any character defeat Galeem with the in game boss fight.

I'd also like to point around that plenty of character reveal trailers show them easily tossing around members of the cast. I'd like to point out how Ridley effortlessly dispatched of Mario and Mega Man, for instance. It's just for dramtic effect to make the trailers more exciting.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Canonical power levels are silly things to argue in a game like Smash, since they're arbitrary not easily defined ir measured.

That and this really isn't the place to discuss this...

 

[Rocketjay8]

Canonical power levels are silly things to argue in a game like Smash, since they're arbitrary not easily defined or measured.

They wanted to show that Sephiroth was a powerful villain, so they made him cut Galeem in half. Its that simple. And I should also remind you that you can make any character defeat Galeem with the in game boss fight.

I'd also like to point around that plenty of character reveal trailers show them easily tossing around members of the cast. I'd like to point out how Ridley effortlessly dispatched of Mario and Mega Man, for instance. It's just for dramtic effect to make the trailers more exciting.

This goes for Mewtwo who is one of the strongest pokemon alive in canon. But he's one of the worst characters in Melee and he's considered a mid tier in Ultimate.

 

[Rizen]

That and this really isn't the place to discuss this...

<-Writes several paragraphs on , everyone focus on the few lines about Sephiroth.

 

[StrangeKitten]

's biggest weakness is that almost all their moves are too slow, imo. It's honestly baffling to me that their side B, which kills decently early but not ridiculously early, is probably among the more punishable moves in the game when so many other characters have little to no lag on smash attacks that kll far earlier. It also doesn't really feel right that uncharged arrow takes a long time to come out when so many other characters throw out swift projectiles practically for free. I think Byleth could be very good if they shaved the startup and endlag off a lot of moves, but as it stands the devs have yet to buff them.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Dont forget , this is MKLeo using were talking about. The player that can take any character that uses a sword/blade weapon and instnatly be like the best player of that character in the world still wreck everyone else.

Any character that uses swords/edged weapons will automatically rise up a tier or two if MKLeo is using them, lol

Well ..any such character except for ironically Ultimate . His main and original "swordie" MKLeo has just not been able to make Marth work for him for the entire duration of Ultimate

 

[Firox]

All I will say about Sephiroth is that all of you better pray his neutral aerial isn't a sword spin like Cloud, because if it is then it's over he's top tier.

Imagine Metaknight's Nair but with a ten-foot-long sword.....yikes.


Also, if MKLeo ends up maining Sephiroth.....true final boss status.

 

[The_Bookworm]

is a strange character to talk about.

He was released less than two months before the shift to online started, thus we don't have enough data about him in an offline environment. MkLeo fooled around with him in the little time we did have offline, but that is before MkLeo took him seriously in the online era.

I do have to say this: Byleth's nair is a godsend.

• While it is rather short reached (which isn't too big of an issue when range is not an issue with Byleth), it is frame 6 that hits all around him. It is one of the few multi-hits in the game that barely drops at all, and the move can potentially combo into itself or into his other aerials. While -11 on shield and 13 frames of landing lag is punishable, it can be tricky to deal with in certain situations, especially in cross-up situations.
• For reference, Palutena's nair is frame 5, -10/-9 on shield, and 12 frames of landing lag. It is safer than Byleth's nair, but not that not much safer.
• However, Byleth's nair also has a landing hitbox, akin to Falco's forward air. Not only this landing hitbox covers all around Byleth, and turns his neutral air into -9 on shield, but Byleth also briefly low profiles on the ground. All in all, this landing hitbox can make punishing Byleth's nair deceptively tricky, especially in, again, cross-up situations.

Very good nair, but this move is especially good on Byleth. He has the moves good at a range. But when the opponent uses an unsafe option against Byleth to punish him, he has a 6 frame neutral air that combos waiting for them. They want to approach him from a diagonal angle to avoid fair and bair's narrow hitbox? You could use your frame 9 up tilt that covers all around him, or potentially catch them with neutral air. The move is also good in simply catching opponents jumping, similar to Palu's nair.

I also think people don't give his projectile enough credit. Don't bother with the fully-charged golden arrows, as those are indeed garbage.

• However, uncharged arrows are pretty versatile in their own way. You are not going to outzone the opponent purely with this move due to its sluggish startup, but the projectile travels extremely fast and covers nearly the entire stage, while doing some pretty good shield damage. This is a projectile that you must respect, or you eat 12% from across the stage. It also makes the move good for edgeguarding as well.
• But I think the true value of this move is that you are able to cancel mid-charge. While the cancel window is not instant, it makes the move far less committal, while opening up mindgames. If you aren't able to cancel it, then Byleth will be nothing but a sitting duck when using this move, and the move would truly be mediocre. But being able to cancel it allows Byleth to insert pressure on the opponent because, again, it is a strong, lightning fast, near-full screen projectile that the opponent must respect.

So yeah, I personally think it is not too wise to simply say "this character is slow and has mediocre frame data" and simply write him off from there. While the character is indeed slow and has mediocre frame data overall, he also has quite a bit of tools to help cover up his holes and enforce his gameplan.

However again, it is rather awkward to accurately rank him due to the awkward timing of his release. I won't be opposed to frame data buffs with the character, as I think the character does need them to be more consistent in his gameplan (and be generally more solid), but I don't think it is wise to simply pass off MkLeo's success with the character simply because it is online and it is MkLeo with a disjointed character.

In the case of the Fighter's Pass 2 characters, , they have all been released during the online era. As such, it is hard to give an accurate assumption on where they are in an offline environment.

• Min Min is the closest we have to a solid assumption on where she is offline, thanks to strong online performances in Japan and potent offline performances in Japan as well. However, opinions on her wildly range from being just "good" to "top of high tier" to even "top tier".
• Steve is a very complex character, but also still relatively new. He has seen some very solid success online thanks to Aaron and Salem, but we have zero clue how he performs offline. Japan has experimented with the character, but he isn't really used that often there. The character was also released around the time Japan re-opened offline events, so we don't know how far Japan's online warriors would've pushed him.
• Sephiroth isn't released yet. lol

tL:dr of my post, while you can make inferences on a character's success offline during the online environment, especially with the already existing characters prior to quarantine, it can be hard to accurately judge a character's success from online to offline. This applies to both new characters added and characters that got adjusted via balance patches.
Who knows what kind of shenanigans Sephiroth and patch 10.0 may bring to the table.

 

[Emblem Lord]

ugh, but he really shouldn't get that kind of billing when among stars bigger than he at least. You expect me to believe he can mop the floor with Kirby? Sonic? Even Mario would probably at least put up a good fight given the RPGs. Then again, Square being Square may have demanded something grandiose.

Based on lore and feats Seph is planetary at minimum. At high ball he is solar system level. He could possibly be reality altering as well.

Videogame Sonic at base could not take him (Archie Sonic could). Kirby most certainly as he is around galaxy level.

That said there probably 12 chars total that can actually beat him in open combat.

Most of the cast are not planet level or higher.

And please remember Nintendo wants your money.

Are you gonna drop money for a char that doesn't look insane? Especially "another swordie"?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I guess but Sephiroth is very 1997. Young kids don't relate to him as much and his "edgy" design would be a total eyeroll if released today. I don't think he resonates with as much as Nintendo's audience as you might think if you're old like us

He's like one anime closeup away from teleporting behind you and saying "nothin' personnel kid"

 

[ZephyrZ]

I guess but Sephiroth is very 1997. Young kids don't relate to him as much and his "edgy" design would be a total eyeroll if released today. I don't think he resonates with as much as Nintendo's audience as you might think if you're old like us

He's like one anime closeup away from teleporting behind you and saying "nothin' personnel kid"

I think you'd be surpised how many people happily eat "cheesy" things up, especially if they come with flashy cg trailers.

Cloud himself was and still is a very popular addition, an reception to Sephiroth has been really good so far as well.

 

[StrangeKitten]

I'd like to clarify that I didn't mean to imply Byleth was bad in my last post. I'm quite positive on the character, actually. Not as positive as Leo, but I'd put them around middle of mid tier, maybe even a little higher. I think their great range and kill power makes them quite good in spite of their flaws; I just think the slowness of their moves holds them back quite a bit. I also agree with The_Bookworm that Byleth has a great nair.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Kagaribi results

1st. KEN
2nd. Kome
3rd. Zackray
4th. Shky
5th. Kameme
5th. MASA
7th. Jagaimo
7th. Gackt

KEN also didn't lose a single game this entire tournament, absolute dominance. Managed to 3-0 Zackray, who he had a losing record to for a long time. I think Sonic could be top 15 now with the buffs.

 

[Arthur97]

Based on lore and feats Seph is planetary at minimum. At high ball he is solar system level. He could possibly be reality altering as well.

Videogame Sonic at base could not take him (Archie Sonic could). Kirby most certainly as he is around galaxy level.

That said there probably 12 chars total that can actually beat him in open combat.

Most of the cast are not planet level or higher.

And please remember Nintendo wants your money.

Are you gonna drop money for a char that doesn't look insane? Especially "another swordie"?

I'm not dropping money on him unless something else comes I want anyway. And not because he uses a sword (seriously, why do people care about that? Where are the complaints of too much punching?)

But, fine, guess it won't rest yet.

If you're talking Supernova, I call foul on that. Either, there are some questions as to why these random people can survive an actual supernova (and, yes, survive even if HP hits 0 as there is a distinction between dying and losing HP) so in actually it's probably just a flashy animation that doesn't actually nuke planets. Even if you insist Cloud is also some sort of freak of nature despite not making SOLDIER (really, I don't understand how he's supposed to win, more than once, if Seph is as strong as people say) the rest of his party can also live through it, so...yeah. As I understand it, at his peak he has a whole planet's energy going through him, which, sure, impressive, but not Galeem impressive who subdued at least a galaxy in one attack. This is a roster with a kid that essentially defeated pure evil, space witch that may or may not have reset the universe, an angel that takes out gods like it was nothing, a warlock wielding godlike powers. Not saying everyone could beat him, but a combined front of even the ones that wouldn't curbstomp him should have at least made him sweat. At the end of the day, he's still a guy that loses to someone weaker than him. Multiple times. You think none of these other heroes couldn't do the same?

And as far as the trailer itself, make it interesting at least. Don't just rehash Cloud vs. Seph (Cloud also seemed oddly in good shape while the others were dirty and weak). At least have someone help Cloud and not be worthless. Like have him and Link work together if you want to appeal to the old hype. Maybe have Seph fight Ganondorf.

 

[zeldasmash]

I'm not dropping money on him unless something else comes I want anyway. And not because he uses a sword (seriously, why do people care about that? Where are the complaints of too much punching?)

But, fine, guess it won't rest yet.

If you're talking Supernova, I call foul on that. Either, there are some questions as to why these random people can survive an actual supernova (and, yes, survive even if HP hits 0 as there is a distinction between dying and losing HP) so in actually it's probably just a flashy animation that doesn't actually nuke planets. Even if you insist Cloud is also some sort of freak of nature despite not making SOLDIER (really, I don't understand how he's supposed to win, more than once, if Seph is as strong as people say) the rest of his party can also live through it, so...yeah. As I understand it, at his peak he has a whole planet's energy going through him, which, sure, impressive, but not Galeem impressive who subdued at least a galaxy in one attack. This is a roster with a kid that essentially defeated pure evil, space witch that may or may not have reset the universe, an angel that takes out gods like it was nothing, a warlock wielding godlike powers. Not saying everyone could beat him, but a combined front of even the ones that wouldn't curbstomp him should have at least made him sweat. At the end of the day, he's still a guy that loses to someone weaker than him. Multiple times. You think none of these other heroes couldn't do the same?

And as far as the trailer itself, make it interesting at least. Don't just rehash Cloud vs. Seph (Cloud also seemed oddly in good shape while the others were dirty and weak). At least have someone help Cloud and not be worthless. Like have him and Link work together if you want to appeal to the old hype. Maybe have Seph fight Ganondorf.

OK, I'll give you that Ganondorf being absent from Sephiroth's trailer was a missed opportunity. These two have been rivals since 1998 and now they finally meet. It would have been awesome to see those two fight in CGI.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Dabuz doing an analysis on the footage we have for Sephiroth

Also my prediction is that is going to be the equivalent of UMVC3 Vergil. I think it's due to the nature of what seems to be a comeback mechanic combined with a very large sword and a similar fighting style.

 

[B_Burg]

Kagaribi results

1st. KEN
2nd. Kome
3rd. Zackray
4th. Shky
5th. Kameme
5th. MASA
7th. Jagaimo
7th. Gackt

KEN also didn't lose a single game this entire tournament, absolute dominance. Managed to 3-0 Zackray, who he had a losing record to for a long time. I think Sonic could be top 15 now with the buffs.

Interesting to see Kameme listed with Sheik. Did he not use his Wario at all for this one?

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Interesting to see Kameme listed with Sheik. Did he not use his Wario at all for this one?

From what I can tell no, he used Sheik against Kept and Mega Man against Kome.

 

[zeldasmash]

Also my prediction is that is going to be the equivalent of UMVC3 Vergil. I think it's due to the nature of what seems to be a comeback mechanic combined with a very large sword and a similar fighting style.

So an immediate and undisputed top tier that breaks the game when in comeback mode? Pretty accurate to his character, really.

 

[SapphSabre777]

Just skimmed through the Kagaribi videos in regards to KEN's , and to be very honest, he is setting himself to be a gold standard for Sonic in the metagame in regards to neutral and confirms, and it is very realistic to see Sonic go higher in the tier list as a result of his accomplishments in the tournament.

The big thing that separates KEN from other Sonics, most notably Wrath (who is the only one who competes toward the best Sonic title with his pre-COVID placings outside of KEN) and especially Wi-Fi Warrior Sonix is how KEN defines Sonic's neutral game, especially in his sets with Zackray and Kome, and it is very easy to spot. KEN's neutral does not focus on his camping aspects, but rather stage control and creating an environment that allows him to whiff punish and use his ground mobility to skirt around the stage he has access to by dashing around and then punishing if the opponent overcommits, which becomes really easy to do when you are trying to predict the fastest character's location on-stage. This actually leads to KEN's use of Spin Dash/Charge being moreso used to establish those situations in different ways, hard-punish landings or unsafe options Sonic has access to, and escaping situations where Sonic has little room to actually use the above neutral plan. Getting damage or moving around by Spin Dash/Charge seems more secondary compared to the utility used through KEN, as compared to most other Sonics that seem to combine numerous parts of the game through Spin Dash/Charge., which can be disastrous with characters that can go outside the potential paths Dash/Charge go through and with how it can get punished hard through bulky/disjointed hitboxes or projectiles, especially in an offline environment where everything is much easier to react and punish to, no matter the occasion.

I think if anyone wants a glimpse at Sonic's meta future, look not at Sonix, but at KEN with how he is utilizing not only the buffs last patch, but the total pros and combination of suffocating neutral and advantage that the hedgehog has to offer, all with more options at the disposal thanks to using natural movement.

 

[Thinkaman]

My one cultural, not-really-competitive post about Sephiroth: (letting it out of my system while we are sitting around waiting)

Also, just a side mark, I've been looking at other's reaction on Sephiroth and I'm curious if anybody has actually played the original Final Fantasy 7. Because I feel like nobody has recognized Safer Sephiroth at the very end of the clip. Everyone's like, who is this? What's going on? Is that Keffka? Come on people, I thought Final Fantasy 7 was one of the most popular PS1 games of all time.

What's odd to me is that I never really played Final Fantasy VII, and I recognized Safer Sephiroth because my friends would mention it (and Bizarro Sephiroth) fairly frequently when the topic of FFVII came up

I was shocked to see Sephiroth revealed, but then shocked again today when I browsed reaction videos and found... not all that many people instantly recognizing the character or his music. Everyone at least vaguely knew who Sephiroth was, and seemed universally agreed that this was crazy and a big deal once people connected the dots, but I'm not used to seeing "reacts" with less emotional impact than I had. (As a boring, not-especially-lively old dude)


It's funny. I have never played through all of FFVII. What I have played I didn't like, preferring the FF games both before and after it. I never liked the characters or Nomura's fashion sensibilities. I never cared for One Winged Angel, and found the bits of Advent Children I watched to be a very pretty, very bad movie.

I recall a conversation in 2016, where I expressed to someone that I greedily wished for just 2 more DLC characters in Smash 4 than we got. The first was Inkling, which I regarded as the super-obvious logical next choice for the series. But the second was actually Sephiroth; I wished specifically that they had done a "two-pack" with Cloud+Sephiroth.

Why would I, someone who doesn't like FFVII, its characters, or any of the hype surrounding it have put Sephiroth in my top 2? Because the concept of Sephiroth had long transcended his game into some larger mythos of gaming. The "playground", if you will. Mario vs. Sonic. Link vs. Cloud. Who doesn't want Ganondorf vs. Sephiroth? (Well, besides Ganondorf, probably.) Link vs. Sephiroth is the stuff of playground dreams. Marth vs. Sephiroth. Ike vs. Sephiroth. Jigglypuff vs. Sephiroth!

I want Sephiroth in Smash the exact same way I unironically want Master Chief in Smash, for reasons that have nothing to do with Halo and everything to do with Samus.


Everything else aside, I'm also just happy that we're getting a DLC villain. By nature, a la carte DLC and single-character series additions both lend themselves heavily towards protagonists, but the overall tapestry of the cast is much richer with a full slate of antagonists running around.

 

[Arthur97]

So an immediate and undisputed top tier that breaks the game when in comeback mode? Pretty accurate to his character, really.

Except for the part where he keeps losing. Even Ganondorf pulled off a victory by killing a Link (in one timeline at least).

As for the reactions, it kind of makes sense that he would have started to fall off in popularity. His big claim to fame was an old game in the 90s that some may argue hasn't aged well and a movie or two. Yes, Square tries to keep reminding you he exists, but as time moves on and a new generation comes up, it stands to reason he'd lose notoriety. Now, the remake is a thing, but even if it gives him a boost, it's hard to capture lightning in a bottle. Plus, his whole "edgy" thing may not be as well received these days.

Not saying he's obscure by any means, but maybe not what some are used to thinking of him as.

 

[Nobie]

My one cultural, not-really-competitive post about Sephiroth: (letting it out of my system while we are sitting around waiting)




I was shocked to see Sephiroth revealed, but then shocked again today when I browsed reaction videos and found... not all that many people instantly recognizing the character or his music. Everyone at least vaguely knew who Sephiroth was, and seemed universally agreed that this was crazy and a big deal once people connected the dots, but I'm not used to seeing "reacts" with less emotional impact than I had. (As a boring, not-especially-lively old dude)


It's funny. I have never played through all of FFVII. What I have played I didn't like, preferring the FF games both before and after it. I never liked the characters or Nomura's fashion sensibilities. I never cared for One Winged Angel, and found the bits of Advent Children I watched to be a very pretty, very bad movie.

I recall a conversation in 2016, where I expressed to someone that I greedily wished for just 2 more DLC characters in Smash 4 than we got. The first was Inkling, which I regarded as the super-obvious logical next choice for the series. But the second was actually Sephiroth; I wished specifically that they had done a "two-pack" with Cloud+Sephiroth.

Why would I, someone who doesn't like FFVII, its characters, or any of the hype surrounding it have put Sephiroth in my top 2? Because the concept of Sephiroth had long transcended his game into some larger mythos of gaming. The "playground", if you will. Mario vs. Sonic. Link vs. Cloud. Who doesn't want Ganondorf vs. Sephiroth? (Well, besides Ganondorf, probably.) Link vs. Sephiroth is the stuff of playground dreams. Marth vs. Sephiroth. Ike vs. Sephiroth. Jigglypuff vs. Sephiroth!

I want Sephiroth in Smash the exact same way I unironically want Master Chief in Smash, for reasons that have nothing to do with Halo and everything to do with Samus.


Everything else aside, I'm also just happy that we're getting a DLC villain. By nature, a la carte DLC and single-character series additions both lend themselves heavily towards protagonists, but the overall tapestry of the cast is much richer with a full slate of antagonists running around.

I've always wanted standalone villains as DLC characters, as I think it's an opportunity to add some variety and not take up too many slots. It's why I wanted Zoma instead of Hero, for example. My longshot prediction is Carmen Sandiego because why not.

Also, I've been thinking about how Kameme has started to use Pokemon Trainer, and I think it makes total sense for him. After all, who are his three most common picks? A speedy combo machine (Sheik), a powerful zoner (Mega Man), and a mobile heavy hitter (Wario). So why not use a single character who has the ability to switch between all three archetypes?

 

[Firox]

Everything else aside, I'm also just happy that we're getting a DLC villain.

Totally agree. Smash really does need more villains to spice things up. And as you said, the fantasy matches between the likes of Ganondorf vs Sephiroth or Link vs Sephiroth are well worth the price of admission.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

So an immediate and undisputed top tier that breaks the game when in comeback mode? Pretty accurate to his character, really.

If this was still Smash 4. I would agree with you. But for Ultimate they really do not seem to want a repeat of Smash 4 Bayo and Cloud. Most of the Ultimate DLC were designed with clear weakness or limitations in mind to keep them from being especially dominant. A broad is example is almost all DLC characters having below average mobility.

Yes, I have not yet mentioned the elephant in the room and and first DLC character . Who of course was considered strong and contender in the game when he was released. However Jokers reception just likely frightened the higher ups to making sure all other future DLC characters were going to be toned down in comparison. I mean in inital intro video the general community was freaking out about how strong his offstage edugaring would be with his blocks. Then when he was actually that move was considerablly nerfed from what it could do in the vid. Plus,Joker even pre-nerfed is nowhere near as dominating as Smash 4 Bayo or even Cloud.

Of course we have no way to tell how good will end up being in the long run. But its more than obvious they are really firing down on not reapting history here. At the very least I am betting they dont plan to make him like but with even larger range