Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Krysco]

So, uh, apparently this is a thing? https://clips.twitch.tv/BoldSpineyKoupreyCharlieBitMe

(Pac-Man escapes Buster Wolf with trampoline.)

I'm pants at Pac-Man and not much better with Terry so maybe someone else can figure out if this is reliable or a fluke.

I saw mention of that on Twitter and the explanation I saw there was that the trampoline spawns on frame 1 so while Pac-Man does get hit by the 'grab' of Buster Wolf after the jab, Pac-Man has enough time to spawn the trampoline and it becomes active and breaks him out before the finisher of Buster Wolf comes out.

 

[Wigglerman]

So, uh, apparently this is a thing? https://clips.twitch.tv/BoldSpineyKoupreyCharlieBitMe

(Pac-Man escapes Buster Wolf with trampoline.)

I'm pants at Pac-Man and not much better with Terry so maybe someone else can figure out if this is reliable or a fluke.

I rarely face Terry's that are decent enough to get around my pac-attack nonsense but this would be something interesting to lab just for good measure. With the delay of the second hit of buster wolf it might just be possible to mash Up B to interrupt it.

 

[TennisBall]

Mario is on that list. And why Mega Man? I always thought he was good, but I don’t know if he’s top 20.

Mega Man is easily Top 20. He has incredible results espically as of late,good tools in neutral, a suffocating advantage with Pellets, Fair/Bair, Leaf Shield, an okay disadvantage, a very nice recovery with double jumps, directional airdodges, Rush, all in whatever mix up you need, this character is very much in that tier of good.

So, uh, apparently this is a thing? https://clips.twitch.tv/BoldSpineyKoupreyCharlieBitMe

(Pac-Man escapes Buster Wolf with trampoline.)

I'm pants at Pac-Man and not much better with Terry so maybe someone else can figure out if this is reliable or a fluke.

oh shoot

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Well here is my take on the top 20 , because I am bored mostly lol All sections are unordered

Top 5


#6-10


#11-20
. Possibly

 

[Impax]

Some chars I agree with, others not really, namely (Young Eevey mostly)(Ven, Naskino, Myst, AceAttorney)(Varun, Sinogara and at least one more I currently forgot) and (mostly kept). Then some chars that I would've put there are missing ()

Dunno, looks like some have been put there just to fill out the Bottom 20 and granted, the mid-tier section is a large pile of characters with very minor differences in viability. At least 40.

Wiifit also has stas, numbers and adastran plus a bunch of people with some results (acestarthe3rd,crash, cpu, kony, rockstarace, etc)

But no one has done better than 33rd at an a s tier yet. So I do get some skepticism

 

[Megamang]

Pac had a good showing, but I worry that the Tea-Nairo match alone made me doubt top tier status. He just looked like a not-top tier the way he spent most of the game in disadvantage, was constantly pushed to the ledge, and generally was fishing or forcing a mistake from Nairo vs enforcing his game plan. It looked like a pretty classic power level discrepancy to me, and it really looked like a mid tier losing in any smash game. Sure it was no blowout and Tea would get through and do some work, but really he didn't have much control. Nairo doesn't get hit by a few more smashes and bells and it is a blowout. Not to push hypotheticals, im just trying to say he didn't have neutral control for a strong majority of the set. And that never bodes well as we all get better at the game.


Also most players are understandably terrified to go offstage and just try and trap pac, giving him a charged fruit and pretty simple return. But when people like ESAM or MKLeo go vs Tea, they keep the pressure up, and it really shows he is exploitable offstage even if the vast majority of people can't or wont go out there... there is room for optimization there. If he gets more MU's where being offstage is terrifying vs a free bell charge and neutral reset, well...

 

[Thinkaman]

Anyone from this thread going to Genesis?

 

[Ziodyne 21]

While he certainly has better kill power than say, Duck Hunt. It seems Pac can struggle to take stocks before like around 140-150% if he get land his tricky projectile (mainly bell) setups .Tea makes killing with Pac-Man look easy partly due to how good he is at getting those hard reads with smash attacks

 

[Nobie]

Pac-Man getting a kill throw (and a grab worth using) was a real game changer.

 

[Lore]

Well here is my take on the top 20 , because I am bored mostly lol All sections are unordered

Top 5


#6-10


#11-20
. Possibly

Having recently picked up Wario, I very much agree with his placement here. He can have such a varied gameplan throughout a match, choosing to rush down or camp as he pleases. Waft is insane for his match pacing.

The rest of the spots seem solid too, although maybe PT needs Inkling's spot.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Having recently picked up Wario, I very much agree with his placement here. He can have such a varied gameplan throughout a match, choosing to rush down or camp as he pleases. Waft is insane for his match pacing.

The rest of the spots seem solid too, although maybe PT needs Inkling's spot.

I'm not so sure about PT. True they're essentially 3 characters in one but they lose easy solidly or semi-solidly to top tiers like Palutena and Joker and also have difficulty with versatile zoners like Megaman and Snake. On top of that they all have either average or bad disadvantage states with both ivysaur and charizard being easy to combo or juggle. Inkling doesn't have the same issues that PT does.

 

[Anomika]

Based on the upcoming patch 6.1.1 and Amiibo tourney, it makes me think that we might not get any new fighters released until February 2020. Which is not a bad thing, but when others Tweeting about the upcoming Nintendo Direct happening likely after Pokemon Direct, it makes me kinda impatient.

Anyways, back to the topic...
Do you think if Pac-Man's recovery was more exploitable, he would drop in the tier lists? I don't think it would affect him a lot, personally, but at the same time I don't remember when was the last time some top player edgeguarded him successfully.

 

[Arthur97]

Well, having a worse recovery probably would hurt him somewhat if it was a good deal worse, but as has hopefully been shown, recovery is not the end all of competitive viability.

 

[BitBitio]

How much recovery affects viability is variable across the cast. For some characters, if their recovery is exploitable enough, the easiest way to deal with them might be gimping or edgeguarding. If they are one of these characters, they can be affected more by their recovery because it's a common part of the matchup. For Pac, I think that the easiest way to beat him is to dodge through the wall of projectiles and fair, and get some damage or maybe a KO move in. Decreasing his recovery distance or safety might make that the easiest way to deal with him, which might affect the meta and MUs. It depends on how nerfed the recovery is.

 

[Megamang]

His recovery is awkward to edgeguard but it is quite possible. I was referencing this before. Ones that stand out to me are when MKLeo gimped him at 0 with guns (they stop pac's ascent AND shoot the trampoline to red.). The same thing can happen with Pika's bair, its an odd angle but the risks aren't really that bad as long as you don't get Side special's you're only taking a weak trampoline.

He has some really nice things like how straight down spikes will send him into the trampoline and he will bounce again safely... but it really isn't as good as people make it out to be. If he has to use the third bounce to make it up (which is almost always the Pac's fault, he does have massive distance on his side) you should always be able to get him by airdodging through him and then bouncing off the trampoline.

You can stop his side B by hitting him or the pellets.


Really what makes it seem so good is that he gets a charge off of recovery, if you get hit by power pellet you die really early, it can move him wherever he wants really... but not safely. Its time to start challenging that **** more, character dependent.

...

Generally, recovery effects matchups in a specific way too much to say a blanket statement besides 'good recovery helps viability' which is kinda obvious.

The two biggest factors are obviously interactions that can lead to a gimp, such as how good you are off a rockcrock… but the other thing is how easily you set up the edgeguard. Like Snake, he is edgeguardable sure but honestly its hard to get a clean hit and set up without blowing up a grenade, having a c-4 you have to consider, him dropping a nikita… and his really really strong aerials. He can slap you out with a bair, maybe uair you at last hit situations, dair makes him float a lil... and if you get fair'd trying to get him low you are very dead, at very low percent... from like the top of the arc too lol.

This is why very gimpable characters hate pika so much. more than his ability to edgeguard, he can get you out there at the click of a button. Get bair'd in the middle of a (small) stage at 0 and suddenly you're offstage at 35%...


An example of specific interaction I know is moves that trade with pika bair and you die (armor nair with Yoshi, falcon dive)… and whether or not you clank out mega's dair. But to answer the hypothetical, I think we will see as people learn Pac more that his recovery is exploitable, and how we can abuse that and how it effects his MUs. His aerial hitboxes size stands out more as a problem to me, trying to get through Palu for example looks rough.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Well obviously if he had weaker recovery options it’s going to affect his viability there isn’t a character in the game who’s viability wouldn’t be impacted by meaningful nerfs such as recovery options. As Megamang mentions there are ways to deal with Pac’s in particular (I can’t believe I never thought to just air dodge through and jump off his trampoline I’ve been a moron his whole time trying to weave around his hitbox and hop off it with little success this whole time). Pac is just able to come from the literal corner of the blast zone without a jump which is really good don’t get me wrong but people aren’t counterplaying him off stage fully yet, which is understandable when you can count the amount of high level Pac man players on two hands.

When talking recovery it’s more important to keep in mind the matchup, as the impacts it has on the character’s viability is going to be more based on how many characters, particularly relevant ones can actually exploit it.

Take Bayo for example a character who isn’t that great but one thing she does have is the ability to come back to stage from just about anywhere along with having good hitbox protection for most of the time she’s doing so. Most characters can’t just go off stage and attempt to swat her away due to it so recovery doesn’t really play a factor in a handful of her MUs. Then you have characters like Ness or Snake who have moves that allow them to freely control a projectile game with no risk to themselves to do so and now you have two MUs where her recovery matters.

Another example you have my character Ness who is known to have an exploitable recovery move but has mixups around using it. If Ness is playing against a Fox, yeah Ness is still an exploitable character if he is forced to use PKT2 but Fox is also not a character that can go off stage to attempt to exploit this very well usually only getting one chance at a drop off nair or shine before he has to immediately head back to stage or SDs. Because of this, recovery doesn’t play much of a factor in that MU and isn’t a hindrance for Ness, affecting his viability.

 

[Y2Kay]

You may not have noticed if you don’t follow Tristate very closely, but Venia has been on a tear to prove he’s the best Greninja.

He got wins over LeoN and JW in his 25th placement at LMBM, Double eliminated James at the Fusion Weekly in NJ this Monday, and today double eliminated Goblin AND Dabuz, along with a win on Lui$ at Xeno.

Venia has gotten cold feet at the last few majors he’s attended, but has gradually improved. I hope to see him at full strength at Genesis soon.

 

[TennisBall]

You may not have noticed if you don’t follow Tristate very closely, but Venia has been on a tear to prove he’s the best Greninja.

He got wins over LeoN and JW in his 25th placement at LMBM, Double eliminated James at the Fusion Weekly in NJ this Monday, and today double eliminated Goblin AND Dabuz, along with a win on Lui$ at Xeno.

Venia has gotten cold feet at the last few majors he’s attended, but has gradually improved. I hope to see him at full strength at Genesis soon.

Greninja actually seems to have quite a few contenders for best player. Venia has been on a streak as previously mentioned, but Jw did very good at TBH9 defeating Salt One and ESAM in winners, Lea recently got a Top 8 at Kongo Saga, and also has results at home?
On a different topic, is iStudying still playing?

 

[Krysco]

The effects on viability nerfing a recovery has all depends how severe the nerf is and how good or bad the recovery in question already was. Some minor examples being that with the way Smash 4 and Ultimate ledges work, Olimar could've potentially been harder to edgeguard with his old Brawl recovery. Would've been far less useful with only 3 Pikmin though. Fox's Illusion has noticeably more startup compared to previous games and both it and Falco's Phantasm can no longer go through shield making high recoveries more risky. Ike's Aether no longer has the sword go through the stage which makes it easier to challenge. Link downright lost his tether and his new bombs don't exactly nerf his bomb recovery but do change it. They can send him further than his old bombs could but it's not as simple as pull and wait anymore. Meta Knight, Pit and Charizard all lost the ability to glide after Brawl and Pit's Brawl recovery was riskier but also much more mobile. Mewtwo's Confusion isn't useful for recovery in Ultimate like it was in 4 and Link, Young Link and Samus lost the ability to tether any part of the stage after Melee. Oh and Wario has to wait longer for his bike to respawn compared to Brawl and 4.

Some more extreme examples are Bayonetta's Witch Twist no longer sweetspotting to ledge, Diddy's barrels not sending him as far, Dr. Mario's recovery overall after Melee, Also after Melee Captain Falcon and Ganondorf could no longer use their down specials to regain their double jump and in Brawl specifically, Ganondorf's Dark Dive was so pathetically weak that you could immediately punish him after he landed it on you, no stage tech even required. Little Mac no longer regains his side special in the air after getting hit out of it or afterwards, Luigi can no longer rise with his Cyclone and the Green Missile misfire doesn't go as far as it did in Melee, Villager's balloons are easier to pop compared to 4 and Wolf's Fire Wolf doesn't go as far as it used to in Brawl. Two examples I'm less sure of are Corrin's which I'm pretty sure it was nerfed going into Ultimate and I've seen some glitchy occurrences with Ice Climbers Belay like if Nana gets hit then Popo just doesn't go up at all sometimes when it either should or used to? Or maybe it was if Nana gets ledge trumped while Popo is still rising, I don't entirely recall.

Some characters are still viable despite these nerfs such as Olimar, Fox and Wolf, others have issues beyond just their recovery like Bayonetta and Corrin, some are so bad that getting their old better recoveries back would hardly matter like with Ganondorf and Mac and some would definitely rise noticeably in viability if their recovery was buffed to how it used to be like Luigi.

 

[Rizen]

The effects on viability nerfing a recovery has all depends how severe the nerf is and how good or bad the recovery in question already was. Some minor examples being that with the way Smash 4 and Ultimate ledges work, Olimar could've potentially been harder to edgeguard with his old Brawl recovery. Would've been far less useful with only 3 Pikmin though. Fox's Illusion has noticeably more startup compared to previous games and both it and Falco's Phantasm can no longer go through shield making high recoveries more risky. Ike's Aether no longer has the sword go through the stage which makes it easier to challenge. Link downright lost his tether and his new bombs don't exactly nerf his bomb recovery but do change it. They can send him further than his old bombs could but it's not as simple as pull and wait anymore. Meta Knight, Pit and Charizard all lost the ability to glide after Brawl and Pit's Brawl recovery was riskier but also much more mobile. Mewtwo's Confusion isn't useful for recovery in Ultimate like it was in 4 and Link, Young Link and Samus lost the ability to tether any part of the stage after Melee. Oh and Wario has to wait longer for his bike to respawn compared to Brawl and 4.

Some more extreme examples are Bayonetta's Witch Twist no longer sweetspotting to ledge, Diddy's barrels not sending him as far, Dr. Mario's recovery overall after Melee, Also after Melee Captain Falcon and Ganondorf could no longer use their down specials to regain their double jump and in Brawl specifically, Ganondorf's Dark Dive was so pathetically weak that you could immediately punish him after he landed it on you, no stage tech even required. Little Mac no longer regains his side special in the air after getting hit out of it or afterwards, Luigi can no longer rise with his Cyclone and the Green Missile misfire doesn't go as far as it did in Melee, Villager's balloons are easier to pop compared to 4 and Wolf's Fire Wolf doesn't go as far as it used to in Brawl. Two examples I'm less sure of are Corrin's which I'm pretty sure it was nerfed going into Ultimate and I've seen some glitchy occurrences with Ice Climbers Belay like if Nana gets hit then Popo just doesn't go up at all sometimes when it either should or used to? Or maybe it was if Nana gets ledge trumped while Popo is still rising, I don't entirely recall.

Some characters are still viable despite these nerfs such as Olimar, Fox and Wolf, others have issues beyond just their recovery like Bayonetta and Corrin, some are so bad that getting their old better recoveries back would hardly matter like with Ganondorf and Mac and some would definitely rise noticeably in viability if their recovery was buffed to how it used to be like Luigi.

Adding on a little to tether recoveries: losing the ability to tether out of airdodge was a good sized nerf. In SSB4 Link could be above the stage>FF airdodge below the ledge and cancel it with a tether to escape pressure from under him. It was a great reset tool.

 

[|RK|]

Dabuz recently put out a bit of words about why he feels Olimar is mid tier, and to me, it seems pretty airtight:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

I wanted to know, after reading this - what do y'all think?

 

[Arthur97]

The effects on viability nerfing a recovery has all depends how severe the nerf is and how good or bad the recovery in question already was. Some minor examples being that with the way Smash 4 and Ultimate ledges work, Olimar could've potentially been harder to edgeguard with his old Brawl recovery. Would've been far less useful with only 3 Pikmin though. Fox's Illusion has noticeably more startup compared to previous games and both it and Falco's Phantasm can no longer go through shield making high recoveries more risky. Ike's Aether no longer has the sword go through the stage which makes it easier to challenge. Link downright lost his tether and his new bombs don't exactly nerf his bomb recovery but do change it. They can send him further than his old bombs could but it's not as simple as pull and wait anymore. Meta Knight, Pit and Charizard all lost the ability to glide after Brawl and Pit's Brawl recovery was riskier but also much more mobile. Mewtwo's Confusion isn't useful for recovery in Ultimate like it was in 4 and Link, Young Link and Samus lost the ability to tether any part of the stage after Melee. Oh and Wario has to wait longer for his bike to respawn compared to Brawl and 4.

Some more extreme examples are Bayonetta's Witch Twist no longer sweetspotting to ledge, Diddy's barrels not sending him as far, Dr. Mario's recovery overall after Melee, Also after Melee Captain Falcon and Ganondorf could no longer use their down specials to regain their double jump and in Brawl specifically, Ganondorf's Dark Dive was so pathetically weak that you could immediately punish him after he landed it on you, no stage tech even required. Little Mac no longer regains his side special in the air after getting hit out of it or afterwards, Luigi can no longer rise with his Cyclone and the Green Missile misfire doesn't go as far as it did in Melee, Villager's balloons are easier to pop compared to 4 and Wolf's Fire Wolf doesn't go as far as it used to in Brawl. Two examples I'm less sure of are Corrin's which I'm pretty sure it was nerfed going into Ultimate and I've seen some glitchy occurrences with Ice Climbers Belay like if Nana gets hit then Popo just doesn't go up at all sometimes when it either should or used to? Or maybe it was if Nana gets ledge trumped while Popo is still rising, I don't entirely recall.

Some characters are still viable despite these nerfs such as Olimar, Fox and Wolf, others have issues beyond just their recovery like Bayonetta and Corrin, some are so bad that getting their old better recoveries back would hardly matter like with Ganondorf and Mac and some would definitely rise noticeably in viability if their recovery was buffed to how it used to be like Luigi.

In regards to Mac, it should also be noted that he became helpless before after haymaker. So, putting it back to the way it was isn't exactly great.

 

[KakuCP9]

I think Olimar is a slightly weaker Snake in the sense that he is absolutely ridiculous, immensely difficult for a good chunk of the cast to deal with, but has really, really bad matchups for characters that stop him from playing his game which makes him polarizing rather than weak. The little dastard still hits like a truck, still has very good buttons and even edge-guarding him can be deceptively difficult (the recovery nerf only applies to repeated use of his up special). The only thing artificially holding him back is the wack shield (though as game goes on, seems like he isn't the only character with this issue which should have been fixed ages ago...). I think this character is high tier minimum and even at the low end of top tier max as his neutral game and positive state are still top class with a semi-manageable negative state.

 

[Daisycakes]

At this point with all the information we have I think that our contenders for top 20 are
And for bottom 20 we have contending

:Do we not exist?!?!

 

[BitBitio]

:Do we not exist?!?!

Well I guess Daisy and Dark Pit do, but Marth is waaaaaay different from Lucina.
Oh, and I forgot to add to bottom 20 contenders and I guess for top 20.

 

[Megamang]

I'd argue green missile was buffed by having misfire shortened, but maybe im just salty from misfiring and proceeding to get edgeguarded from the opposite side of the stage. Its got a good distance now without a range where you are genuinely worse off getting a misfire.

But it sticking into the stage is a big nerf. If luigi is high cyclone being invincible is great, but it lost the ability to recover him a bunch with great mashing which is a really serious nerf and it shows in his recovery.

 

[SwagGuy99]

But it sticking into the stage is a big nerf. If luigi is high cyclone being invincible is great, but it lost the ability to recover him a bunch with great mashing which is a really serious nerf and it shows in his recovery.

I wish Luigi Cyclone was a better recovery. I don't really care if it gimps people at 0%, since he now has z-air which can serve a similar purpose (not nearly as well but it still works) but it would improve Luigi's recovery a lot if he could rise with it again.

 

[Bobert]

I think Olimar is a slightly weaker Snake in the sense that he is absolutely ridiculous, immensely difficult for a good chunk of the cast to deal with, but has really, really bad matchups for characters that stop him from playing his game which makes him polarizing rather than weak.

I feel like this applies to Simon and Richter too. Two characters that almost completely shut down alot of characters and are strong counter picks for some of the best characters in top and high tier(Peach, Olimar, Ken, Mario, do decently against Snake), but get absolutely obliterated by a handful of characters so badly that they look like low tiers. Pika/Pichu both just get in once and they're lucky to make it back to the stage. Speaking of characters who are nearly dumpstered by their own recovery actually..

 

[The_Bookworm]

I wish Luigi Cyclone was a better recovery. I don't really care if it gimps people at 0%, since he now has z-air which can serve a similar purpose (not nearly as well but it still works) but it would improve Luigi's recovery a lot if he could rise with it again.

That reminds me of something that is kind of irrelevant, but I find intriguing: Elegant was the person that developed Cyclone jank towards the second half of SSB4.
However, wouldn't that technically mean that may have this tech too? Brawl Luigi Cyclone travels even higher than SSB4 Luigi Cyclone, so maybe he has access to it. Maybe not due to how hitstun canceling works, but I am curious.

It makes me wonder if character/engine specific techniques found in Smash games, can be discovered that it can be applied to past versions of the character/game.

 

[|RK|]

I think Olimar is a slightly weaker Snake in the sense that he is absolutely ridiculous, immensely difficult for a good chunk of the cast to deal with, but has really, really bad matchups for characters that stop him from playing his game which makes him polarizing rather than weak. The little dastard still hits like a truck, still has very good buttons and even edge-guarding him can be deceptively difficult (the recovery nerf only applies to repeated use of his up special). The only thing artificially holding him back is the wack shield (though as game goes on, seems like he isn't the only character with this issue which should have been fixed ages ago...). I think this character is high tier minimum and even at the low end of top tier max as his neutral game and positive state are still top class with a semi-manageable negative state.

I feel like this is missing some of the points Dabuz addressed. What are his buttons that make him good in neutral?

He seems like he's good when it comes to stuffing opponents out, but not so much when it comes to getting anything started. After the nerfs, Olimar's plan is even more about tacking on damage with Pikmin toss such that the opponent has to try and do something.

But he's still susceptible to opponents running away if they have a significant lead, as he has mobility worse than Kirby. Not to mention that he's mainly only good at keeping people out if he has a purple on deck.

Dabuz was already mentioning the damage output as the main reason people could succeed with him - if you make the right reads, you can stack up damage really fast. But beyond that, his neutral is actually not that great, and his advantage doesn't actually exist beyond the fact that he has combos and some ledgetrapping.

None of it makes him bad, but I'm not sure he's actually top tier. There are many bonkers characters in this game.

 

[SwagGuy99]

However, wouldn't that technically mean that may have this tech too? Brawl Luigi Cyclone travels even higher than SSB4 Luigi Cyclone, so maybe he has access to it. Maybe not due to how hitstun canceling works, but I am curious.

Luigi Cyclone in Brawl is weird. It's easier to rise from mashing in Brawl, but opponents who fall out of the move in Brawl (from what I remember) fell out at a more horizontal angle most of the time so I don't think it was as good as an edgeguarding option, especially not against most of the good characters

I feel like this is missing some of the points Dabuz addressed. What are his buttons that make him good in neutral?

He seems like he's good when it comes to stuffing opponents out, but not so much when it comes to getting anything started. After the nerfs, Olimar's plan is even more about tacking on damage with Pikmin toss such that the opponent has to try and do something.

But he's still susceptible to opponents running away if they have a significant lead, as he has mobility worse than Kirby. Not to mention that he's mainly only good at keeping people out if he has a purple on deck.

Dabuz was already mentioning the damage output as the main reason people could succeed with him - if you make the right reads, you can stack up damage really fast. But beyond that, his neutral is actually not that great, and his advantage doesn't actually exist beyond the fact that he has combos and some ledgetrapping.

None of it makes him bad, but I'm not sure he's actually top tier. There are many bonkers characters in this game.

I don't think Olimar is Top Tier. On the one hand, Olimar has some great disjoints, amazing damage output, decent edgeguarding, and strong kill options and a solid neutral.

However, he has some pretty notable weaknesses especially post patch, but I can sum most of it up at once: his disadvantage kind of sucks. He's not the fastest character, so while running away works sometimes, it won't always work against fast characters. His recovery lacks a hitbox and his shield literally doesn't work sometimes due to how large his hurtbox is. He also has to manage Pikmin while worrying about these other things as well.

i'd say Olimar is a high tier at this point.

 

[DungeonMaster]

I feel like this applies to Simon and Richter too. Two characters that almost completely shut down alot of characters and are strong counter picks for some of the best characters in top and high tier(Peach, Olimar, Ken, Mario, do decently against Snake), but get absolutely obliterated by a handful of characters so badly that they look like low tiers.

No the comparison is not apt at all. Olimar has an actual zone whereas Belmont is a dumpster fire of hard reads required with a whole lot praying in between.

Olimar can pikmen toss from a short hop and cover all approach options. It arcs to cover opponent short hop aireals, and falls to cover opponent running in. Belmont can't do this with any of his moves on anything with any sort of speed. He has to guess. Even characters with not particularly flat hurtboxes can just get in. If lucina runs at you you have to pick between a rising angled down fair which misses her short hop, or a rising straight fair which she simply runs under. Cross or ftilt same deal. There's no zone. He's a zoner with no zone, it's full of gaps. He straight up loses to run up shield otherwise. That's why everyone dropped the character, along with a whole pile of other issues like no kill power outside of a holy water hard read.

Olimar and Belmont are not even close to the same tier, one of them has an actual zoning game, simple high damage combos, a great hurtbox, strong killing aireals, invincibility, a good grab i.e. options vs shield.

I don't think anyone is trotting out belmont vs most of the high and top tiers you listed, he does not beat peach, ken. He barely beats DK as kongo saga T3 dome vs Tea showed. I'm not even sure he beats the actual zoners at high level, his matchup spread is classic low tier bad zoner.

 

[SwagGuy99]

Olimar and Belmont are not even close to the same tier, one of them has an actual zoning game, simple high damage combos, a great hurtbox, strong killing aireals, invincibility, a good grab i.e. options vs shield.

Well, his hurtbox is only good until he shields. then it's kind of garbage. But yeah, Olimar has way more options than Belmonts and they don't really play all that similarly.

 

[Lacrimosa]

No the comparison is not apt at all. Olimar has an actual zone whereas Belmont is a dumpster fire of hard reads required with a whole lot praying in between.

Olimar can pikmen toss from a short hop and cover all approach options. It arcs to cover opponent short hop aireals, and falls to cover opponent running in. Belmont can't do this with any of his moves on anything with any sort of speed. He has to guess. Even characters with not particularly flat hurtboxes can just get in. If lucina runs at you you have to pick between a rising angled down fair which misses her short hop, or a rising straight fair which she simply runs under. Cross or ftilt same deal. There's no zone. He's a zoner with no zone, it's full of gaps. He straight up loses to run up shield otherwise. That's why everyone dropped the character, along with a whole pile of other issues like no kill power outside of a holy water hard read.

Olimar and Belmont are not even close to the same tier, one of them has an actual zoning game, simple high damage combos, a great hurtbox, strong killing aireals, invincibility, a good grab i.e. options vs shield.

I don't think anyone is trotting out belmont vs most of the high and top tiers you listed, he does not beat peach, ken. He barely beats DK as kongo saga T3 dome vs Tea showed. I'm not even sure he beats the actual zoners at high level, his matchup spread is classic low tier bad zoner.

That and the Belmont's framedata is just bad on their specials. Ton of startup and endframes make them really predictable and you can even react to what they are doing pretty well.

All they can do is ledgetrapping but I'd argue they are better characters once you know how Holy Water works.

 

[BitBitio]

Yeah but Belmont does have an excellent keep-away game with projectiles limiting options, their amazing ftilt when they get close, and dtilt to get away. Add it to good combos and range, and their issues are balanced out.
Easy mid tier.

Hot take: Samus high tier???

 

[Lacrimosa]

Imo Samus has been high-tier since the beginning but quikk's results are backing things up.
I still think that projectile and zoning characters are or were underrated (Snake was underrated by some (Leffen most notably) in the beginning, maybe although I'm not sure if he counts as "zoner" but his gameplan seems to heavily include the laser), except the Belmonts. And I'm sure I forgot at least one zoner character.
However, I think all of these characters have already shown to be somewhat viable, maybe they need help in certain MUs but they can do pretty much every MU.

You really don't run into fTilt except you start dashing at the very same moment they use that move.

 

[BitBitio]

Imo Samus has been high-tier since the beginning but quikk's results are backing things up.
I still think that projectile and zoning characters are or were underrated (Snake was underrated by some (Leffen most notably) in the beginning, maybe although I'm not sure if he counts as "zoner" but his gameplan seems to heavily include the laser), except the Belmonts. And I'm sure I forgot at least one zoner character.
However, I think all of these characters have already shown to be somewhat viable, maybe they need help in certain MUs but they can do pretty much every MU.

You really don't run into fTilt except you start dashing at the very same moment they use that move.

True but Ftilt is so freaking safe and has such a long hitbox that they get hit anyway.

You forgot

 

[Tri Knight]

Imo Samus has been high-tier since the beginning but quikk's results are backing things up.
I still think that projectile and zoning characters are or were underrated (Snake was underrated by some (Leffen most notably) in the beginning, maybe although I'm not sure if he counts as "zoner" but his gameplan seems to heavily include the laser), except the Belmonts. And I'm sure I forgot at least one zoner character.
However, I think all of these characters have already shown to be somewhat viable, maybe they need help in certain MUs but they can do pretty much every MU.

You really don't run into fTilt except you start dashing at the very same moment they use that move.

So do we consider High Tier to include characters that are more or less solo viable, but may need backup in certain MU's? Because that sounds like it pertains to a whole lot of characters in this game.

 

[SwagGuy99]

So do we consider High Tier to include characters that are more or less solo viable, but may need backup in certain MU's? Because that sounds like it pertains to a whole lot of characters in this game.

That's kind of how I've been trying to think about it.

IMO, Top Tiers are solo-viable, High Tiers are probably solo-viable but have a few bad matchups where a secondary is useful to have, Mid Tiers tend to have more polarizing matchup spreads but work as secondaries for a High Tier or another Mid Tier, Low Tiers can do well in a few relevant matchups, but generally lose to most of the High/Top Tiers, the only bottom tier is who has maybe 1-4 matchups that aren't at least 45:55 or worse.

However, matchups aren't everything, results, applicable theory, and overall attributes all can affect a character's tier placement as well (for example, most people thought was bad in Smash 4 even initially after his buffs but it was hard to deny he was pretty good once he started placing well at larger tournaments).

 

[Arthur97]

Indeed, matchups aren't everything. Isn't Mac not the absolute worst when it comes to results? With the cast so close together this time, the old terms might give the impression that the difference is more important than it actually is. Granted, they need to be called something, and some are going to be worse than others. Still, that difference should not be over stated.