Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Arthur97]

Why did this turn into a Melee comparison thread?

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Why did this turn into a Melee comparison thread?

Sadly comparisons to past versions of games are inevitable no matter where you go. When people were complaining about Bayonetta in Smash 4 the counterargument eventually became "At least she's not Brawl Meta Knight". It just seems to happen.
On a side note I'm obviously not up to date on the DLC. I just played a Joker player but even though I didn't hit them they still got Arsene. Does Arsene charge not just from Joker getting hit or using Royal Guard but also from getting hits in? I forgot how the mechanic completely worked.

 

[Arthur97]

Sadly comparisons to past versions of games are inevitable no matter where you go. When people were complaining about Bayonetta in Smash 4 the counterargument eventually became "At least she's not Brawl Meta Knight". It just seems to happen.
On a side note I'm obviously not up to date on the DLC. I just played a Joker player but even though I didn't hit them they still got Arsene. Does Arsene charge not just from Joker getting hit or using Royal Guard but also from getting hits in? I forgot how the mechanic completely worked.

Yes, but this is also comparing general mechanics, not even fighters. Plus, I had hoped the community was finally putting Melee behind it somewhat. However Melee worked though, doesn't change Ultimate's mechanics, so what is the purpose here?

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Yes, but this is also comparing general mechanics, not even fighters. Plus, I had hoped the community was finally putting Melee behind it somewhat. However Melee worked though, doesn't change Ultimate's mechanics, so what is the purpose here?

Again mechanics, fighters and other things will be compared between versions. Smash 4's mechanics were compared to Brawl's and melees as were the fighters as well as the game modes. I just used one example.

 

[Minordeth]

I thought so, but even then, it seems like people are better rewarded for doing something aggressive in Melee. Even if they're being safe a lot of the time, it seems like they can choose moments to just go in (save for Puff).

Maybe that's an answer though, as bc was getting at. Just higher reward for just doing something every now and again.

Players in Melee can be rewarded for converting neutral wins more so than in Ultimate, however, this is more likely due to the fact that Melee is far older than Ult. Continual advancements and optimizations over almost two decades will do that to a games advantage state.

Ult’s hitstun isn’t wildly different than Melee’s, as it was based on S4 formulas, which led to what, one frames worth of absolute difference?

Melee is a defensive game. The reason Ult seems more defensive is due to 1.) far more matchups, which tends to promote caution until familiarly is widespread, and 2.) optimization is ongoing for the entire cast.

Fighting games are defensive, unless the dev puts in external systems that either punish defensive play (a la guilty gear) or make failed attempts at offense less punishing.

 

[Gearkeeper-8a]

Shields aren't weak in melee, the thing is that the top tier characters in melee have ridiculous tools to pressure shield thanks to L-cancel and singular moves being op like shine, marth grab range, falcon knee, falco dair.

 

[BitBitio]

Can we talk about for a minute? Looking at OrionStats, this character has nothing. 1.5 total points for this season. This character has no notable players whatsoever, an absolute lack of results, and this is after being buffed in updates.
Why?

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Can we talk about for a minute? Looking at OrionStats, this character has nothing. 1.5 total points for this season. This character has no notable players whatsoever, an absolute lack of results, and this is after being buffed in updates.
Why?

Here's what I got:

-Wasn't highly requested
-Was nerfed from Sm4sh
-Other fighters were buffed
-Lacks an interesting niche
-Others characters do the same as them but better and/or easier
-Doesn't have many strong and/or important MU's
-Personalities weren't fondly favored by players
-People weren't crazy for their origin games
-Isn't super fun to play for many players

They just don't widely appeal to people anymore.

 

[|RK|]

Players in Melee can be rewarded for converting neutral wins more so than in Ultimate, however, this is more likely due to the fact that Melee is far older than Ult. Continual advancements and optimizations over almost two decades will do that to a games advantage state.

Ult’s hitstun isn’t wildly different than Melee’s, as it was based on S4 formulas, which led to what, one frames worth of absolute difference?

Melee is a defensive game. The reason Ult seems more defensive is due to 1.) far more matchups, which tends to promote caution until familiarly is widespread, and 2.) optimization is ongoing for the entire cast.

Fighting games are defensive, unless the dev puts in external systems that either punish defensive play (a la guilty gear) or make failed attempts at offense less punishing.

Tbh, the only two fighting games I've played in tournament are Guilty Gear and Cross Tag, so my senses may certainly be skewed.

That said, Ultimate also has balloon knockback, and seemingly fewer options to follow up. Melee often seems like it's restricted by your own creativity, while Ultimate has pretty set conversions.

I can absolutely agree that optimization for the whole cast will slow aggressive strategies down, but it seems that as Ultimate progresses, it becomes more defensive. Which is exactly what Tweek and other top players predicted to start.

But, maybe we are missing something. S4 was also very defensive, but dash shield made it so people could use it aggressively. Without that, people seem infinitely more cautious. Tying back to the shield discussion, then, maybe we're just using it wrong.

Maybe we're supposed to running parry everything and blow people up off that, idfk

 

[bc1910]

Shields aren't weak in melee, the thing is that the top tier characters in melee have ridiculous tools to pressure shield thanks to L-cancel and singular moves being op like shine, marth grab range, falcon knee, falco dair.

Who said they were weak? They aren’t. The power shield mechanics alone ensure that.

Are they weaker than they are in Ultimate (and Brawl and S4) though? Absolutely. You only need to look at the raw frame data of the options to see that.

You cite strong top tier options to deal with shield, however these are still part of the reason why shields are worse. Such pressure options barely exist in Ultimate.

 

[Lacrimosa]

Speaking of OrionStats: The Spring 2020 PGR season started but the Google Doc I know about didn't uo´pdate since December 16th.
The first tournaments for the new season were held this weekend, so I guess the Stats mere moved to somewhere else?

 

[Arthur97]

Again mechanics, fighters and other things will be compared between versions. Smash 4's mechanics were compared to Brawl's and melees as were the fighters as well as the game modes. I just used one example.

But this thread is specifically for fighters. All in all, not really the place for a "Is Melee defensive?" or "Why is Melee les

Here's what I got:

-Wasn't highly requested
-Was nerfed from Sm4sh
-Other fighters were buffed
-Lacks an interesting niche
-Others characters do the same as them but better and/or easier
-Doesn't have many strong and/or important MU's
-Personalities weren't fondly favored by players
-People weren't crazy for their origin games
-Isn't super fun to play for many players

They just don't widely appeal to people anymore.

I mean, was Terry highly requested? Or Plant?

Also, can we get off the Fates wasn't popular stuff (how dare you make me defend that game)? For one, how many pro Smash players are familiar with FE at all (like how few actually know Lucina is royalty)? Secondly, the game was actually very popular.

 

[Nobie]

Perception-wise, Melee is a game of freedoms, at least for top tiers. In any given moment, you have disregard dozens of available options that are all subtle and precise and give players an open canvas. Dash dancing here is about gradations, for example. Once you master the game's mechanics, the sky's the limit.

Ultimate, on the other hand, is a game of limitations. In order to make all 70+ characters relatively unique, it's less about what they CAN do and more about what they CAN'T do. Dash dancing in Ultimate is about moving in pre-set increments, so while you have the freedom to do pretty much anything out of a dash, you can't control exactly when to stop. You have to work around the restrictions.

I think this is why Jigglypuff is seen as such a bane to Melee by so many, because it takes all those little precise movements you can make to go a million different directions and says, "Nope."

Meanwhile, there hasn't yet been a character to do that to Ultimate, but ya never know.

 

[FeelMeUp]

ultimate is more defensive due to having too many options that encourage neutral resets with pressure overall being too mindlessly safe.

fox drill in melee, for example, changes in safety wildly based on spacing and what height you do it at.
but a lot of the neutral interactions in ultimate ( nair is a fantastic example) are spurred upon by low interaction mindless buttons that are insanely safe on both shield and whiff. when your opponent has options like the above example, / bair, or nair the real answer to dealing with said move is to not go over there.
there's too much lag and not enough microspacing tools in this game to take the risk of eating the hit and taking a 50% bnb or shielding it and still being left in disadvantage.

tldr; too many moves like bair exist in Ultimate and the risk reward means you're better off not interacting with the opponent at all

 

[KakuCP9]

Can we talk about

No.

Snip

Ayy man, it's been awhile! How you've been?

And yeah, the lack of precision tools for spacing definitely hurts, though I think it cuts both ways since if you're either trying to zone your opponent out or respond to an opponents attack, you need precise spacing to do so lest you end up overextending and get punished. This leads to some forms of defense play to get awkward (outside of OOS tools which are why they're extremely coveted in this game) due to how difficult it can be to cover options without commitment thanks to the restrictions on movement. This doesn't mean Ultimate is not defensive or less so than Melee, but it's a stark contrast to Melee where everything can be done with surgical precision from offense or defense.

 

[Arthur97]

Okay, this seems to have gotten rather off topic. Can someone just make a comparison thread so it can go there?

 

[SwagGuy99]

Can we talk about for a minute? Looking at OrionStats, this character has nothing. 1.5 total points for this season. This character has no notable players whatsoever, an absolute lack of results, and this is after being buffed in updates.
Why?

• Nerfed from Smash 4.
• Most moves and stats are mediocre overall.
• Better sword characters exist.
• Cosmos dropped her.
• Kind of basic compared to other swordfighters.
• Lackluster MU spread against relevent characters (maybe OK against and ?)
• Not that fun.

 

[Lacrimosa]

Corrin doesn't kill and has no movement options due to her lackluster speed.
She can juggle (I guess?) but it'S way too hard to keep your opponent occupied. Horrible projectile that clanks with every minor hitbox and travels too slow (It's not even worth reflecting it).

Ganon, another character with very poor mobility, at least packs agood punch behind his attacks but for Corrin it's either fSmash or a very laggy and therefore hard to hit bAir. This move also gives some weird forward momentum, so you'll give up space if you miss that move.
Pin isn't good as it used to be and on top-level player nobody will get get hit by that.
No throw combos or kill throws of any kind.

Even if there were no other Sword character in the game, I doubt anyone would use her.

She's just not fun to use in this patch version. Maybe she'll be made good just like Kirby, who is fun to play again. Contender for worst character in the game.
Mac will kill you in a few hits at the very least.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

I mean, was Terry highly requested? Or Plant?

Also, can we get off the Fates wasn't popular stuff (how dare you make me defend that game)? For one, how many pro Smash players are familiar with FE at all (like how few actually know Lucina is royalty)? Secondly, the game was actually very popular.

My point was the character isn't that popular compared to other not great but still decently played characters like & .
Thus another reason why hardly has any results.

 

[Cheryl~]

This Corrin discussion isn't going to lead anywhere since we're all just replying with the same points: She isn't popular, has no niche over other swordies, and has no results to speak of. I tried to believe in Corrin when they got buffed but the truth is they truly just suck right now and there's not much reason to use them since a lot of their good matchups are covered by better sword characters, namely Lucina. While I do think some people lack knowledge on Corrin it's not going to be much help to educate them because there's no good Corrin footage to go off of. I think the only way Corrin will ever make progress in this game is if somehow she gets some notable results in the coming year, maybe helped by a patch or two or maybe some Corrin player just comes out of nowhere and does well for once. Otherwise, she's probably the closest character other than the Pits when it comes to their meta being "dead" or "stagnant". (You could also argue Ike for his simplicity but at least he's decent!)

 

[MrGameguycolor]

SNIP

In short: Corrin is pretty honest and boring despite having a cool and dishonest design.


So with almost 2 months down, how's looking right now?
Good? Bad? Potential counterpick?

 

[Ziodyne 21]

I will not drag this anymore but just to end it

As a FE fan I will just say that due to the character and the game he/she game fron Corrin was one of the most "divisive" main characters in the entire franchise.

Until Eldeguard came along that is. But I doubt she will be a playable character in this or any Smash game...but in a reality where she was...ohh boy

I mean Go the the FE Subreddit, gamefaqs 3H page or any FE fanforum and search for Eldgeuard...it..it will be an experience

 

[Heracr055]

The Corrin misconceptions I see here are quite appalling. I am sick of seeing people place her in bottom 10 or worse when her tools suggest mid tier. The only reason she has no results is disinterest in the character, plain and simple.

Edit: I'll make an informed post of my thoughts on Corrin eventually once I feel motivated enough @below

 

[Nah]

The Corrin misconceptions I see here are quite appalling. I am sick of seeing people place her in bottom 10 or worse when her tools suggest mid tier. The only reason she has no results is disinterest in the character, plain and simple.

might as well address those misconceptions while you're here, especially if you feel that strongly about it

it'd probably be a better Corrin discussion than the dead horse (dragon?) that's been beaten over and over in this thread, yeah?

 

[NairWizard]

On the subject of Melee, because I think it's an important point of comparison, let's take a look at an example set. Here's iBDW vs. Zain from Summit:

Game 1 starts at 2:15. In this match, iBDW is the aggressor, so you'll see several dash-ins from him, but make no mistake about it: Zain is playing a defensive game here. The very first d-tilt that he lands is a whiff punish. At 2:20 he lands the most defensive of d-tilts--it wasn't meant to be spaced, it wasn't meant to apply any pressure, it was just meant to keep Fox out. At 2:23 you see another whiff punish: Zain landing a grab because iBDW used a move that was unsafe on hit.

In fact, in this entire game, you don't see Zain make a single aggressive play in neutral. The f-smash at 2:28? It's used in an advantaged position. But in neutral, he maintains an iron defense the entire match. And what's the result? 3 stocks in his favor.

Actually, throughout the set, whenever Zain does make an aggressive play, it costs him, like at 5:55 when he tries to dash in to get a grab. Sometimes, the aggressive play isn't even in neutral, it's just pushing advantage, like the sequence beginning at 5:10 where he gets reversed into disadvantage while trying to convert. When Zain risks anything aggressive, he gets punished for it on reaction.

Some of what he does is outright camping. Just look at the sequence beginning at 6:00. Defensive spacing, shielding, dashing to avoid damage--it's just as much defense as 2011 Brawl.

If you actually watch a lot of Melee, you'll see that it's very defensive. The defensive sequences often don't last long enough for you to notice if you're not really paying attention to the neutral, due to the game's speed, but it's definitely there. Some matchups are also less defensive than others. Fox being the most common character certainly helps the game a lot--Fox is aggressive by design; even in Ultimate you'll see Light making insane aggro plays in a variety of matchups.

 

[SwagGuy99]

So with almost 2 months down, how's looking right now?
Good? Bad? Potential counterpick?

seems fine I think? I think is probably better and that some of 's normals are a bit underwhelming compared to a lot of the other close range characters like but between his GO meter and specials he can deal with most characters pretty well anyways.


I think that he will struggle with being camped out by some characters projectile and also against characters who can get in and are small enough to avoid being hit by a lot of his moves could give him trouble, but overall, I think he has a fairly average MU spread probably.

I can see and maybe being somewhat problematic characters for Terry going forward, but I don't really see any of them being completely terrible matchups for him, just hard.

I think his MUs against lighter characters he can combo somewhat easily though, like will be pretty decent.

Edit: If you want me to classify him into the categories that you asked, I'd say he's a good, potential counterpick. I think that he struggles against too many random mid tier zoners and top tiers for him to be great, but I feel like he can do well enough fast-fallers and characters who are easier for him to combo to be a good counterpick, especially against probably.

 

[Arthur97]

I will not drag this anymore but just to end it

As a FE fan I will just say that due to the character and the game he/she game fron Corrin was one of the most "divisive" main characters in the entire franchise.

Until Eldeguard came along that is. But I doubt she will be a playable character in this or any Smash game...but in a reality where she was...ohh boy

I mean Go the the FE Subreddit, gamefaqs 3H page or any FE fanforum and search for Eldgeuard...it..it will be an experience

Huh, she seems to have largely positive receptions from what I've seen. Though, I think I may have seen her fans described as...cult-like.

But, yeah, you could call Awakening "divisive" though not to the same degree. Doesn't mean the sides being divided are anywhere close to even in size though. Granted, Female Corrin gets waifu points, but if it wasn't for that, she would likely join Male Corrin as one of the least popular lords. Still not unpopular per se, but this idea that Fates was unpopular is kind of ridiculous.

And, again, how many pros even play FE? If anything, being FE was probably the detriment to most rather than being from Fates.

 

[KirbySquad101]

The players considered top 100 on the PGRU and possible candidates for Top 50 were unveiled in an X-Factor survey. Anyone not featured in this survey will not be part of this season's PGRU:
https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/...ts_director_releases_xfactor_survey_with_100/

List of candidates:

• ScAtt
• Brood
• ProtoBanham |
• ESAM
• Wizzrobe
• Ned
• Ryuga
• Light (Connecticut)
• Lv. 1
• Gen|
• Glutonny
• Choco
• KEN
• Zinoto|
• T
• Abadango|
• CaptainZack |
• RFang
• UtopianRay
• HIKARU
• Suarez
• BestNess
• Tsu
• Sigma
• Pelca
• Fatality
• Lui$|
• Secret
• Kuro
• The Great Gonzales
• Larry Lurr
• Marss|
  
• Nicko
• WaDi|
• Lea
• YB
• Wishes
• Gackt
• Ri-ma
• Cosmos
• LeoN
• Kola (SaltOne)
• Wrath|
• Jw
• shky
• Stroder|
• ZD
• Mr. R|
• Frozen
• Umeki
• MkLeo|
• Elegant
• DIO
• ANTi
• Joker|
• Tea
• Samsora
• MVD
• Myran
• Big D
• MuteAce
• Riddles
• Tweek
• zackray|
• Kome
• VoiD|
• NickC
• Kirihara|
• Sonido
• Sinji
• Kameme
• quiK|
• Raffi-X
• Prodigy
• Raito
• Pandarian
• Goblin
• Rivers (Shoyo James)|
• Kept|
• 8BitMan
• Dark Wizzy
• Shuton|
• Dabuz|
• Peabnut
• Shogun
• Captain L
• Leffen|
• Nietono
• yeti
• Eim
• Gomakenpi
• Maister
• Mr. E
• LingLing
• NAKAT
• Puppeh
• Ron
• Nairo|
• Etsuji
• Salem

I'm assuming Season 1's placements were factored in, because otherwise, I can't fathom why mostly inactive players like Secret, Great Gonzales, YB, and Frozen got in over players like Juice, Jakal, BlazingPasta, Space, Blacktwins, or MastaMario.

 

[NairWizard]

Hey guys, happy new year. Just wanted to say that. Not a competitive impression at all, but don't let the video game make you forget that we're all people here, and it's insanely awesome that we keep coming back year after year to hang out with each other and chat about something we love. I totally love being here with you guys and have had some super cool moments in debate and discussion. And some good laughs too. Hope you guys have a great 2020!

 

[Emblem Lord]

seems fine I think? I think is probably better and that some of 's normals are a bit underwhelming compared to a lot of the other close range characters like but between his GO meter and specials he can deal with most characters pretty well anyways.


I think that he will struggle with being camped out by some characters projectile and also against characters who can get in and are small enough to avoid being hit by a lot of his moves could give him trouble, but overall, I think he has a fairly average MU spread probably.

I can see and maybe being somewhat problematic characters for Terry going forward, but I don't really see any of them being completely terrible matchups for him, just hard.

I think his MUs against lighter characters he can combo somewhat easily though, like will be pretty decent.

Edit: If you want me to classify him into the categories that you asked, I'd say he's a good, potential counterpick. I think that he struggles against too many random mid tier zoners and top tiers for him to be great, but I feel like he can do well enough fast-fallers and characters who are easier for him to combo to be a good counterpick, especially against probably.

I cannot think of a single match that Ken does better than Terry with the exception of Bowser.

But this conversation was doomed to fail from the start with the comparison between Ken and Terry.

They don't want the same things.

They don't play the same game.

 

[PK Gaming]

Hey guys, happy new year. Just wanted to say that. Not a competitive impression at all, but don't let the video game make you forget that we're all people here, and it's insanely awesome that we keep coming back year after year to hang out with each other and chat about something we love. I totally love being here with you guys and have had some super cool moments in debate and discussion. And some good laughs too. Hope you guys have a great 2020!

For real

This place is pretty much the only sane corner of the internet when it comes to discussing Smash Bros and I absolutely love the direction this thread has headed in.

I hope we can keep this friendly-but-passionate atmosphere going for a long time

 

[Lacrimosa]

I cannot think of a single match that Ken does better than Terry with the exception of Bowser.

But this conversation was doomed to fail from the start with the comparison between Ken and Terry.

They don't want the same things.

They don't play the same game.

But what does Terry want? Played him a bit Online but oof. I'M not that good of a player too see what a char wants when I play against a character.

I've to admit I don't follow many American tournaments and also not Locus or Riddles who I think both play Terry.
The French tournaments I still follow don't have a Terry player except Patrino who rarely competes as much as I'm aware.

As for the PGR survey:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Oof?

 

[C3CC]

When is the first official tier list coming out? I'm really curious.

 

[BitBitio]

When is the first official tier list coming out? I'm really curious.

If I had to guess, it would be after the Fighters Pass is complete. February at the absolute earliest, but likely more into Spring or Summer.

 

[Emblem Lord]

But what does Terry want? Played him a bit Online but oof. I'M not that good of a player too see what a char wants when I play against a character.

I've to admit I don't follow many American tournaments and also not Locus or Riddles who I think both play Terry.
The French tournaments I still follow don't have a Terry player except Patrino who rarely competes as much as I'm aware.

As for the PGR survey:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Oof?

Terry is a smash character with some tweaks.

He wants the same things a smash character wants. Put you in bad positions, ledge trap you, zone break when you get too comfy in nuetral, etc. Pretty standard stuff. And as far as neutral goes, he is pretty damn good at it. He has alot of different tools and I don't think there is even one match where he doesn't have an answer. Crack Shoot alone makes or breaks several of his matches.

People want him to be a shoto so damn bad.

It's bleh.

BLEH I SAY

 

[KakuCP9]

Terry is a smash character with some tweaks.

He wants the same things a smash character wants. Put you in bad positions, ledge trap you, zone break when you get too comfy in nuetral, etc. Pretty standard stuff. And as far as neutral goes, he is pretty damn good at it. He has alot of different tools and I don't think there is even one match where he doesn't have an answer. Crack Shoot alone makes or breaks several of his matches.

People want him to be a shoto so damn bad.

It's bleh.

BLEH I SAY

Any thoughts on the charge partitioning tech for Rising Tackle?

 

[Arthur97]

Would an official tier list be wise at this point? A lot is still up for debate, and a tier list may do more harm than good by spreading the ideas that that is how things are plain and simple. Only general stuff seems to be agreed upon to a substantial degree, and even that can sometimes that may not even be the case. A tier list just for the sake of having one does not seem like a good idea.

 

[Bobert]

seems fine I think? I think is probably better and that some of 's normals are a bit underwhelming compared to a lot of the other close range characters like but between his GO meter and specials he can deal with most characters pretty well anyways.

I don't really see the point in comparing Ken and Terry as if they were clones. They're completely different characters with different playstyles. I don't see Ken being better though as his disadvantage and neutral are worse than Terry's while Terry is still nearly just as terrifying when he gets in on you. Crackshoot, Power Dunk, and Dash Attack are just dumb and can zone break very effectively due to their safety. Crackshoot and Dash Attack cross up and Power Dunk is absurdly safe in general.

Terry's close range buttons are better than Luigi's and Mario's. Jab and Down tilt have mixup potential and are made fairly safe by crackshoot and power dunk, and are kill confirms. Ftilt is completely invincible all over the leg and is disgustingly safe on shield for it's range and leg invincibility. It also leads into 25%-40% combos. Terry's buttons in general are just much safer on shield while sacrificing a few extra frames of start-up. Luigi's down tilt(-2 on shield) would pretty much be the only exception but it lacks the threat of getting hit for a guaranteed 30% or even death.

 

[blackghost]

honestly my opinion on terry depends on whether or not you can consistently escape his bnb combos. i've heard you can and can't.
personally i still favor ken and sometimes ryu depending on the MU over terry.
i do agree with Emblem Lord that terry is a relatively normal smash character unlike the shotos.

 

[PURGE THEM LIKE THE]

You can easily escape jab > power dunk by sdi'ing in on the first hit of power dunk. I say easily because even I can do it. If the terry knows you're going to, they can up b instead. I don't know if you can sdi out on the jab to avoid the up b. I doubt regular di will help either.