Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[SwagGuy99]

Indeed, matchups aren't everything. Isn't Mac not the absolute worst when it comes to results? With the cast so close together this time, the old terms might give the impression that the difference is more important than it actually is. Granted, they need to be called something, and some are going to be worse than others. Still, that difference should not be over stated.

I agree that the gap between characters is a lot less this time than in other games (although yes, some characters will naturally be better than others as well).

Also, the character with the worst results of PGR Season 2 ended up being (with actually being ranked 61/75 due to his better results in Japan) while in PGR Season 1 he was ranked 72/73, only being above (who was ranked separated from ).

I find it interesting that his results actually improved between seasons, despite being the clear choice for worst character at the moment although most of those results came from Japan where they think a bit more highly of than most US players do.

 

[Megamang]

The best characters will naturally pull players to them, especially at top level, but as you move down the tier list other factors effect play a ton. I think that explains Mac, he is very unique and has a motivated playerbase, or at least has in the past and probably has some holdovers... Corrin, well, she got outclassed by other swordies and her playerbase just evaporated. I do legitimately think Corrin is a decent character, probably better in more MUs than little mac, but she isn't good enough to have that player magnetism and therefore sits at the bottom of results.

Results tell you more near the very top of the list, where you have players who like smash and want results, less than players that like a certain character and want to be the best with them. Then there are other factors, people like me just want a solo viable character but look one that fits, etc etc. Its complicated, but tldr is results mean more near the top - and as time goes on - vs at the bottom of the list.

 

[TennisBall]

So Dabuz made a tier list for 6.1, I don't necessarily wanna use this to discuss the material of the tier list but rather get a quick re-cap on our overall opinion of some of the characters before the rankings for Season 2 come out:
HAS THE SAUCE(Nerf a little?)aka Super Top Tier, :,,,,,,
Some Sauce but not the best(Top Tier):,,,,,,,,,,,
High Tier:,,,,,,,,
Upper Mid Tier:,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Lower Mid Tier:,,,,,,,,,,,,
Low Tier:,,
Missing Ingredients(Please Buff?)aka Bottom Tier:,,,,,,,
Unranked:,,,,,,
Me personally I would not put Zelda in Bottom Tier and I think Robin's a little high up there but the arguments are there.
Sorry for posting another tier list Megamang finished the topic pretty well.

 

[Arthur97]

Why would you put Shulk in the nerf them tier?

It also bugs me he put Chrom and Roy in entirely separate tiers.

 

[Tri Knight]

So Dabuz made a tier list for 6.1, I don't necessarily wanna use this to discuss the material of the tier list but rather get a quick re-cap on our overall opinion of some of the characters before the rankings for Season 2 come out:
HAS THE SAUCE(Nerf a little?)aka Super Top Tier, :,,,,,,
Some Sauce but not the best(Top Tier):,,,,,,,,,,,
High Tier:,,,,,,,,
Upper Mid Tier:,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Lower Mid Tier:,,,,,,,,,,,,
Low Tier:,,
Missing Ingredients(Please Buff?)aka Bottom Tier:,,,,,,,
Unranked:,,,,,,
Me personally I would not put Zelda in Bottom Tier and I think Robin's a little high up there but the arguments are there.
Sorry for posting another tier list Megamang finished the topic pretty well.

Young Link is too low imo. He's gotta be high tier if we're putting Adult Link there. I really think we're underestimating YL these days. Been seeing a lot of players place him lower than what I think he should be. He's got way too much going on for him to not be at least a High Tier.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Why would you put Shulk in the nerf them tier?

It also bugs me he put Chrom and Roy in entirely separate tiers.

Its not too surpring coming from Dabuz considering I think he put Shulk in "Has Sauce" tier in just about every Ultimate tier list he has made

Shulk and Pikachu are the characters most pro players put in top-tier due theory over their actual results. I would say Pikachu has more of a shot of being top-tier. But Shulk may actually have as good or even better results than Pikachu now with a couple notable B-Tier tournament wins

 

[SwagGuy99]

Why would you put Shulk in the nerf them tier?

It also bugs me he put Chrom and Roy in entirely separate tiers.

is there most likely because he can switch Arts (to Shield Art specifically) in hitstun, making a lot of combos not work on him.

and are in separate tiers probably because Roy has the superior recovery and slightly better damage output and kill power on some moves, although there is actually only one character between the two of them so it's not that huge of a deal.

 

[Rizen]

(Nerf a little?)aka Super Top Tier, :,

No, just no. I don't even want to discuss these 2 anymore.

So Dabuz made a tier list for 6.1, I don't necessarily wanna use this to discuss the material of the tier list but rather get a quick re-cap on our overall opinion of some of the characters before the rankings for Season 2 come out:
HAS THE SAUCE(Nerf a little?)aka Super Top Tier, :,,,,,,
Some Sauce but not the best(Top Tier):,,,,,,,,,,,
High Tier:,,,,,,,,
Upper Mid Tier:,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Lower Mid Tier:,,,,,,,,,,,,
Low Tier:,,
Missing Ingredients(Please Buff?)aka Bottom Tier:,,,,,,,
Unranked:,,,,,,
Me personally I would not put Zelda in Bottom Tier and I think Robin's a little high up there but the arguments are there.
Sorry for posting another tier list Megamang finished the topic pretty well.

On a posative note, I like that Debuz gives K.Rool and Ike the credit they deserve. Ike's still high tier and K.Rool's better than low tiers. A little.

 

[Cheryl~]

It's funny how Smashboards seems to be the one place where Shulk and Pikachu aren't instantly regarded as dumb broken top tiers while everywhere else they're seen as Top 10-5. Personally, I disagree with these takes because even if their results aren't the best that shouldn't keep people from realizing how crazy privileged those two characters are, but I don't really feel like expanding on that.

One thing I like about Dabuz's tier list that goes along with another recent trend is how high he places Sonic. It seems like Sonic has quietly crept into high tier on most people's tier lists recently as his results have gotten better and better, with KEN placing very well in Japan and the other Sonics doing good as well. Related to this, Wrath just won a B-tier PGR event in North Carolina over players like Toast (top 16 at LMBM) and Rfang (Top 8'd Big House and infamous for his Summit campaign)

Just Roll With It 12 (426 entrants) (Raleigh, North Carolina)

1st: Wrath
2nd: Toast
3rd: Kola
4th: Rfang
5th: Iota
5th: Peabnut
7th: Adachi
7th: Mekos (oh hey, a Lucas result too!)

I'd like to hear other's thoughts about Sonic because I feel like he may be getting slept on even, despite how high people are putting him.

 

[Lacrimosa]

Yeah, I don't buy that Zelda placement in Dabuz' list.
He pretty much ranted about her as like that he wanted to pick her up but was frustrated since she doesn't work like he wants her to work.

Otherwise I can't explain why he put her into mid-tier in his last tier-list and now in bottom-tier when stuff like results didn't drop at all.

 

[TennisBall]

It's funny how Smashboards seems to be the one place where Shulk and Pikachu aren't instantly regarded as dumb broken top tiers while everywhere else they're seen as Top 10-5. Personally, I disagree with these takes because even if their results aren't the best that shouldn't keep people from realizing how crazy privileged those two characters are, but I don't really feel like expanding on that.

One thing I like about Dabuz's tier list that goes along with another recent trend is how high he places Sonic. It seems like Sonic has quietly crept into high tier on most people's tier lists recently as his results have gotten better and better, with KEN placing very well in Japan and the other Sonics doing good as well. Related to this, Wrath just won a B-tier PGR event in North Carolina over players like Toast (top 16 at LMBM) and Rfang (Top 8'd Big House and infamous for his Summit campaign)

Just Roll With It 12 (426 entrants) (Raleigh, North Carolina)

1st: Wrath
2nd: Toast
3rd: Kola
4th: Rfang
5th: Iota
5th: Peabnut
7th: Adachi
7th: Mekos (oh hey, a Lucas result too!)

I'd like to hear other's thoughts about Sonic because I feel like he may be getting slept on even, despite how high people are putting him.

Sonic is for sure high tier, and maybe possible higher on that aspect, I don't think that Sonic is quite ready for top tier because some things don't work and he can really sturggle to kill but he's still very very good.

Why would you put Shulk in the nerf them tier?

It also bugs me he put Chrom and Roy in entirely separate tiers.

Honestly I would do the same. Sure Roy's sourspots hurt but his sweetspots make it worth it in the long run. Roy can afford to lose a neutral interaction, Chrom will literally lose the stock if he loses one neutral interaction against a good player. I know you're sick of the recovery argument but I don't know what else to tell you, it's literally that bad. Sure Roy's recovery isn't really good but it's serviceable. Those are my thoughts on the matter.

 

[NotLiquid]

Valhalla III Top 8

Winners:
Glutonny vs Space
quiK vs Lancelot

Losers:

Elexiao vs Mr.R
CurryGovernor vs S1

Some stray notable placements:
Peli (9th)
Tru4 (9th)
Meru (9th)
Flow (9th)
Rage (13th)
Supahsemmie (13th)
iStudying (13th)
Vreyvus (49th)

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Is the character many notable smash players like to call the best in the game. Yet very few big notable mains actually want to use. I mean before 3.1.0 patch you can make the argument that Pika was pretty much overshadowed by . But after Pichu got considerably nerfed there was not really a mass exodus of Pichu mains flocking to Pikachu.

So.. If Pikachu is considered so amazing, why is the electric rat starved for representation? .Yes Pikachu can be hard to use due to all his long and complex combos and loops. But that did not stop and from having lots of representation and results from the beginning of the game despite also being difficult to fully utilize. Then again most of the rep were dedicated Peach and Olimar mains from Smash 4 or even Brawl, so they were already more than familiar with them.

Then there is the other side. Players looking for top-tier characters to try and win with. There are many examples of top-tiers that are easier to use than Pika and have gotten notable results

 

[FruitLoop]

Is the character many notable smash players like to call the best in the game. Yet very few big notable mains actually want to use. I mean before 3.1.0 patch you can make the argument that Pika was pretty much overshadowed by . But after Pichu got considerably nerfed there was not really a mass exodus of Pichu mains flocking to Pikachu.

So.. If Pikachu is considered so amazing, why is the electric rat starved for representation? .Yes Pikachu can be hard to use due to all his long and complex combos and loops. But that did not stop and from having lots of representation and results from the beginning of the game despite also being difficult to fully utilize. Then again most of the rep were dedicated Peach and Olimar mains from Smash 4 or even Brawl, so they were already more than familiar with them.

Then there is the other side. Players looking for top-tier characters to try and win with. There are many examples of top-tiers that are easier to use than Pika and have gotten notable results

I just think it's more of a popularity dynamic. Pika isn't a char where once you learn something like Peach you get instantly rewarded with an insane amount of %. Pika in almost every smash game except for debateably 64 where everyone mained everyone has always been underused. Even in SSF2's own competitive scene where Pika is unanimously agreed to be top tier in the newest version of its beta almost no one except for one tournament player that was notable by the named of Arsee used him. I think it's just that people for some reason fundamentally aren't interested in Pika's moveset in general. Pikachu in general isn't a widely interesting character and not a lot of people are really interested in optimizing their quick attack angles for example since it's a whole lot less interesting to lab out than Peach turnip or float combos and Ice Climber desync tech for example.

This honestly has nothing to do with the quality of Pikachu as a character, just in terms of how much interested people are in how Pika functions as a character. And Pichu having a similar but more rewarding moveset even with the elevated risk would likely interest more people in the first place.

 

[Megamang]

He's slow in the air, which isn't a feeling most players (who play top tiers) are used to. This was by far the biggest thing to get used to, and it still costs me disadvantage relatively frequently. As yes, pika has disadvantage - just like ZSS - even though he has an amazing escape button.


Seriously, have we ever had a top tier that was slow in the air? The first thing that comes to mind is melee falco, but that is different where you can maintain dash momentum to alleviate that, AND he was lightning fast going vertically which is its own version of being fast in the air. Nothing else comes to mind, some high tiers have made up for it, but even Brawl snake (don't remember his airspeed) fell more and more as time went on.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

He's slow in the air, which isn't a feeling most players (who play top tiers) are used to. This was by far the biggest thing to get used to, and it still costs me disadvantage relatively frequently. As yes, pika has disadvantage - just like ZSS - even though he has an amazing escape button.


Seriously, have we ever had a top tier that was slow in the air? The first thing that comes to mind is melee falco, but that is different where you can maintain dash momentum to alleviate that, AND he was lightning fast going vertically which is its own version of being fast in the air. Nothing else comes to mind, some high tiers have made up for it, but even Brawl snake (don't remember his airspeed) fell more and more as time went on.

Smash 4 Diddy comes to mind as a top-tier not having all that great air mobility

 

[Rizen]

Diddy has monkey flip to make up for his air speed, like how brawl MK had a stupidly OP glide and tornado.

Speaking of terrible air speeds, I was playing random friendlies and got Luigi. He barely moves at all in the air; it feels jarring. I know Elegant's been putting in work with him but I can't see Luigi higher than mid tier. He has too many mobility issues and poor hitboxes.

 

[The_Bookworm]

I just think it's more of a popularity dynamic. Pika isn't a char where once you learn something like Peach you get instantly rewarded with an insane amount of %. Pika in almost every smash game except for debateably 64 where everyone mained everyone has always been underused. Even in SSF2's own competitive scene where Pika is unanimously agreed to be top tier in the newest version of its beta almost no one except for one tournament player that was notable by the named of Arsee used him. I think it's just that people for some reason fundamentally aren't interested in Pika's moveset in general. Pikachu in general isn't a widely interesting character and not a lot of people are really interested in optimizing their quick attack angles for example since it's a whole lot less interesting to lab out than Peach turnip or float combos and Ice Climber desync tech for example.

This honestly has nothing to do with the quality of Pikachu as a character, just in terms of how much interested people are in how Pika functions as a character. And Pichu having a similar but more rewarding moveset even with the elevated risk would likely interest more people in the first place.

But that hasn't really stopped Lucina players in playing... well, Lucina. Granted that she is easier to use than Pika, but having a more fundamentally basic/bland moveset hasn't stopped players into using her.
If Pikachu is really as good as people say, then there would be more players playing him, let alone do well with him outside of ESAM.

Now I do believe Pikachu is a top 15 character, maybe lower end of top 10, but I think people are jumping the gun by putting him top 5, maybe even the best in the game. The character still needs to content with having low range, below average air speed, and some issues KO'ing while being easy to KO itself.

Speaking of terrible air speeds, I was playing random friendlies and got Luigi. He barely moves at all in the air; it feels jarring. I know Elegant's been putting in work with him but I can't see Luigi higher than mid tier. He has too many mobility issues and poor hitboxes.

Didn't stop Luigi from being high tier in SSB4, and he had a much worse initial dash and traction in that game (as well as a lower gravity and fall speed values).

 

[Ziodyne 21]

But that hasn't really stopped Lucina players in playing... well, Lucina. Granted that she is easier to use than Pika, but having a more fundamentally basic/bland moveset hasn't stopped players into using her.
If Pikachu is really as good as people say, then there would be more players playing him, let alone do well with him outside of ESAM.

Now I do believe Pikachu is a top 15 character, maybe lower end of top 10, but I think people are jumping the gun by putting him top 5, maybe even the best in the game. The character still needs to content with having low range, below average air speed, and some issues KO'ing while being easy to KO itself.


Didn't stop Luigi from being high tier in SSB4, and he had a much worse initial dash and traction in that game (as well as a lower gravity and fall speed values).

Well nothing Luigi has improvements..seem to make up for having a now legitimately really bad recovery now to thanks to the Cyclone nerfs. I am sure all Luigi players would trade the added invicibility frames ot got in Ultimate over the ability to rise with mashing in Smash 4 in an instant

 

[Rizen]

Also 's grab went from a normal grab to a f14 tether grab. Granted the projectile makes it one of the more useful tethers but it wasn't worth the trade off.

 

[Frihetsanka]

But that hasn't really stopped Lucina players in playing... well, Lucina. Granted that she is easier to use than Pika, but having a more fundamentally basic/bland moveset hasn't stopped players into using her.

It kind of is. How many Lucina players will make PGR season 2? ProtoBanham and maybe Mr. E? If we're looking at top 100, how many are Lucina players? Not many. I imagine the main reason is that she's simply not as good as other characters (maybe not even top 10), and another reason is that she's considered bland (although people said the same thing about Palutena and Smash 4 Cloud, so it seems that if a character is sufficiently strong blandness becomes less of an issue).

Pikachu is an old character that's fairly hard to learn, it's not too surprising that he's unpopular.

 

[meleebrawler]

Also 's grab went from a normal grab to a f14 tether grab. Granted the projectile makes it one of the more useful tethers but it wasn't worth the trade off.

Not really for a guy like him. Unless we are of the opinion that all tether grabs suck?

See, the main benefit normal grabs have over tethers is faster startup, which is mostly relevant for punishes of the out of shield variety. Thing with Luigi though is that he already has a plethora of quick moves to use in that scenario that can lead to comparable reward that a normal grab would, so he doesn't really lose much here from the grab. By contrast, the added range forces people to respect Luigi more in the mid-range, where previously all he had were fireballs, that are still pretty good by the way!

Compare that to Link, where his old grab just exacerbated his weak boxing game, but now he has another quick defence in close range he didn't have before.

 

[Arthur97]

Sonic is for sure high tier, and maybe possible higher on that aspect, I don't think that Sonic is quite ready for top tier because some things don't work and he can really sturggle to kill but he's still very very good.

Honestly I would do the same. Sure Roy's sourspots hurt but his sweetspots make it worth it in the long run. Roy can afford to lose a neutral interaction, Chrom will literally lose the stock if he loses one neutral interaction against a good player. I know you're sick of the recovery argument but I don't know what else to tell you, it's literally that bad. Sure Roy's recovery isn't really good but it's serviceable. Those are my thoughts on the matter.

Yes, I am sick of it because Roy's honestly isn't that much better. I want more than "lol, recovery." It's not like Roy is Pac-Man here, so, yes, I would like something a bit more substantial than the same regurgitated argument.

 

[SwagGuy99]

Also 's grab went from a normal grab to a f14 tether grab. Granted the projectile makes it one of the more useful tethers but it wasn't worth the trade off.

I'd argue that the tether grab isn't worse than his old one, but I will say that it's not necessarily better either.

His grab is relatively fast for a tether grab (Frame 14). While the range on most of Luigi's attacks are generally average for a character without disjoints, his new grab (in combination with his fireball and z-air) can somewhat alleviate that as Luigi will sometimes have an easier time landing a grab on characters with large hitboxes than he did in Smash 4, and since Luigi struggles against characters with disjoints, this is actually pretty helpful against some characters.

He also gets a niche ledgetrapping/edgeguarding option with his new z-air which can work great for edgeguarding weak recoveries from a safe distance.

However, while his grab is arguably even more practical and an integral part of his gameplan as it was in Smash 4, there are still some drawbacks.

He lost most utility of his dash grab due to his traction increase meaning that he no longer moves forward as he runs. His grab is also more punishable if it misses against a character with a fast kill option as well.

 

[FruitLoop]

But that hasn't really stopped Lucina players in playing... well, Lucina. Granted that she is easier to use than Pika, but having a more fundamentally basic/bland moveset hasn't stopped players into using her.
If Pikachu is really as good as people say, then there would be more players playing him, let alone do well with him outside of ESAM.

Now I do believe Pikachu is a top 15 character, maybe lower end of top 10, but I think people are jumping the gun by putting him top 5, maybe even the best in the game. The character still needs to content with having low range, below average air speed, and some issues KO'ing while being easy to KO itself.


Didn't stop Luigi from being high tier in SSB4, and he had a much worse initial dash and traction in that game (as well as a lower gravity and fall speed values).

Like you can argue that characters like Lucina have more "boring" and generic rulesets which could make them less popular. But characters that are naturally easier tend to be viewed as better secondary picks which increases their chance of being someone's main. As Pika not only do you have to memorize specific tech skill and you have to be absurdly precise, but you have to do it without having instantly gratifying reward while still having small enough hitboxes where you have to be specific with your spacing. That + the general disinterest of Pikachu's moveset throughout the smash series would fundamentally just make Pikachu be viewed as not really an interesting character to pick up. Olimar also has this issue when it comes to popularity but at least at top level play a lot more top level players just seem to like Olimar's playstyle or found him appealing in a different smash game. I just don't think there were any Pika mains outside of Axe and ESAM that really had interest in the character while sitll being a near top level player on their own.

 

[Rizen]

I'd argue that the tether grab isn't worse than his old one, but I will say that it's not necessarily better either.

His grab is relatively fast for a tether grab (Frame 14). While the range on most of Luigi's attacks are generally average for a character without disjoints, his new grab (in combination with his fireball and z-air) can somewhat alleviate that as Luigi will sometimes have an easier time landing a grab on characters with large hitboxes than he did in Smash 4, and since Luigi struggles against characters with disjoints, this is actually pretty helpful against some characters.

He also gets a niche ledgetrapping/edgeguarding option with his new z-air which can work great for edgeguarding weak recoveries from a safe distance.

However, while his grab is arguably even more practical and an integral part of his gameplan as it was in Smash 4, there are still some drawbacks.

He lost most utility of his dash grab due to his traction increase meaning that he no longer moves forward as he runs. His grab is also more punishable if it misses against a character with a fast kill option as well.

Fast tether grabs are f12 () Luigi's grab is only faster than the Samus'. Speaking as someone who mained and seconds , I'd much rather have a normal grab than a tether. Normal grabs let you tomahawk, attack twice as fast and are less punishable than tethers. Tethers do have advantage so it's not a black and white issue but imo normals are better.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Well having a Tether Grab in Ultimate is not as big a handicap in neutral play as it is in Smash 4 thanks to the changes in gameplay

 

[Tri Knight]

Fast tether grabs are f12 () Luigi's grab is only faster than the Samus'. Speaking as someone who mained and seconds , I'd much rather have a normal grab than a tether. Normal grabs let you tomahawk, attack twice as fast and are less punishable than tethers. Tethers do have advantage so it's not a black and white issue but imo normals are better.

We all know we love our tether recoveries though

 

[meleebrawler]

Fast tether grabs are f12 () Luigi's grab is only faster than the Samus'. Speaking as someone who mained and seconds , I'd much rather have a normal grab than a tether. Normal grabs let you tomahawk, attack twice as fast and are less punishable than tethers. Tethers do have advantage so it's not a black and white issue but imo normals are better.

That's easy to say when you main someone who can fall really fast and has two aerials that can make fighters think twice about vertical pursuit. Who is Luigi fooling by tomahawking with his terrible airspeed that you lambasted recently, and below average fall speed?

We all know we love our tether recoveries though

All the more jarring Luigi can't tether with his when he totally does tether with it in Luigi's Mansion 3's Captain Fishhook battle.

 

[BitBitio]

Yeah getting a zair that doesn’t tether and invincible frames on cyclone means that Luigi now has mobility issues, and recovery issues. The trade offs made him worse because he lost recovery and gimping options, has pretty much equal OOS options, and the gains such as a better combo breaker and zair for edgeguarding are inferior to his previous options.

He got buffed in the way of mobility and... combos? But lost recovery and edgeguarding. Tethers are inherently worse because like how it’s always been in Smash: Framedata beats range any day.

Meanwhile gets a melee grab, new bombs, more range, better combos and KO power, and mobility. Luigi midtier

is top tier but will never reach full potential so Pika is put up there without earning it IMO. Whatever lol I main so I don’t really care about Pika

 

[KirbySquad101]

I'm relieved 's finally starting to get the recognition he deserves, if Dabuz's tier placement of him is any indication; I want to do a write-up of him later on, but while Sonic's biggest hurdle is getting first blood, I'm honestly glad that it's even an issue in the first place as he's easily one of the most oppressive characters in the game when up a stock. I'm looking forward to seeing what else Wrath can accomplish with the character in future.


Also, if we're talking top tiers with poor air mobility, I'm surprised no one's mentioned yet lol.

 

[DunnoBro]

Luigi's tether is definitely worse in a vacuum. But in relation to his kit, it makes a lot of sense.

-Pairs well with Fireball, and Buffed Dash Attack
-Similarly, The Zair pairs well with his low lag aerials and landing mix-ups so jumps are MUCH less of a commitment
-Effectively gives him a disjoint to deal with matchups he simply couldn't otherwise
-Gives him a non-committal edgeguarding/2-framing option.

Really, his neutral is more varied and complete than ever. It is true that a few aspects (Reactive Whiff Punishing, ShieldGrabbing) are worse, but these aren't even major factors in a lot of matchups. (And worse Tomahawking is a non-issue.)

What definitely hurt most was the more direct cyclone nerfs. (Height and gimps)

Even the invincibility is largely just a compensation for the loss of airdodge > nair/uair he had in smash 4.

But, overall I think Luigi's a more complete, cohesively and sensibly designed character than smash 4. Even if he is a bit worse in relation to the meta surrounding him now vs s4.

 

[Megamang]

I'm relieved 's finally starting to get the recognition he deserves, if Dabuz's tier placement of him is any indication; I want to do a write-up of him later on, but while Sonic's biggest hurdle is getting first blood, I'm honestly glad that it's even an issue in the first place as he's easily one of the most oppressive characters in the game when up a stock. I'm looking forward to seeing what else Wrath can accomplish with the character in future.


Also, if we're talking top tiers with poor air mobility, I'm surprised no one's mentioned yet lol.

AFAIK top tier is now Pika, Falcon, Fox... maybe im dumb but I thought Kirby had fallen fairly recently being outmanuevered by the rat.

 

[SwagGuy99]

Yeah getting a zair that doesn’t tether and invincible frames on cyclone means that Luigi now has mobility issues, and recovery issues.

Mobility issues, no. His mobility isn't noticeably worse than it ever was and his initial dash and run speed being buffed go a long way to making him feel faster.

Recovery issues yes. Z-air really doesn't have much to do with it, although his recovery would be better if it was a tether. The only reason his recovery was any good in Brawl/Smash 4 was because Cyclone was a move that was extremely risky to edgeguard for almost every character.

The trade offs made him worse because he lost recovery and gimping options, has pretty much equal OOS options, and the gains such as a better combo breaker and zair for edgeguarding are inferior to his previous options.

The changes from Smash 4 have probably left Luigi worse, although that's almost entirely due to nerfing Cyclone (and to a lesser extent) losing most of his jab-cancel setups and changes to air dodging. Otherwise, almost all of his changes were trade-offs or buffs. His OOS options are actually a lot better since his traction isn't total trash anymore with Up-b in particular benefiting from this.

He got buffed in the way of mobility and... combos? But lost recovery and edgeguarding. Tethers are inherently worse because like how it’s always been in Smash: Framedata beats range any day.

Yes, that's a pretty good of summarizing Luigi's changes. Mobility is better, combos are better, recovery and edgeguarding are both worse. Tethers aren't necessarily worse, though and I will say that I personally think Luigi's tether isn't any better or worse than his old grab although that's something I think people will disagree with.

Also, if we're talking top tiers with poor air mobility, I'm surprised no one's mentioned yet lol.

We have had some Top Tiers with poor air mobility in the past and is a notable one.

We also have all of whom have fairly slow air speed and air acceleration although all of these characters have strong enough tools to balance this out.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Luigi's tether is definitely worse in a vacuum. But in relation to his kit, it makes a lot of sense.

-Pairs well with Fireball, and Buffed Dash Attack
-Similarly, The Zair pairs well with his low lag aerials and landing mix-ups so jumps are MUCH less of a commitment
-Effectively gives him a disjoint to deal with matchups he simply couldn't otherwise
-Gives him a non-committal edgeguarding/2-framing option.

Really, his neutral is more varied and complete than ever. It is true that a few aspects (Reactive Whiff Punishing, ShieldGrabbing) are worse, but these aren't even major factors in a lot of matchups. (And worse Tomahawking is a non-issue.)

What definitely hurt most was the more direct cyclone nerfs. (Height and gimps)

Even the invincibility is largely just a compensation for the loss of airdodge > nair/uair he had in smash 4.

But, overall I think Luigi's a more complete, cohesively and sensibly designed character than smash 4. Even if he is a bit worse in relation to the meta surrounding him now vs s4.

The key word is the Meta. Because Luigi has pretty rough MU's vs many top-tier characters in the current meta as many of them can exploit Luigi's weakness pretty hard
and possibly just to name some. He likely goes even with a few top-tiers at best

 

[Rizen]

We all know we love our tether recoveries though

Tether recoveries are nice although not being able to tether out of air dodge nerfed them a bit. The problem with Zair for is his other OoS options are f9 and huge commitments. Zair is always buffered OoS when inputting a SH aerial. If he had a good OoS upB like it wouldn't be a problem but I'd rather have YL's f4 Nair OoS than a tether.

 

[L9999]

Yeah, I don't buy that Zelda placement in Dabuz' list.
He pretty much ranted about her as like that he wanted to pick her up but was frustrated since she doesn't work like he wants her to work.

Otherwise I can't explain why he put her into mid-tier in his last tier-list and now in bottom-tier when stuff like results didn't drop at all.

Is Dabuz "salty" about Zelda because he says she has no good buttons? Because he is not wrong.



All of these use their aerials for meaningful purposes: space, combo, juggle, pressure, kill, or all five; if you interact with them you have to respect the space of their aerials and if you are playing these you will make the most out of their moves. Zelda's Nair, Fair, Uair, and Dair are awful; she fails at one of the most fundamental aspects of Smash Bros, responding and initiating aerial interaction, she is pretty much in the air.


Another aspect Dabuz mentions are that her specials are not very good, which plays a part on Zelda's inability of interacting. Zelda gets locked in place for doing her ranged specials, and they charge and move slow. By the point she can release them against a good character they are either at her face ready to thrash her or could care less and do nothing.

"Zelda is meant to be defensive, you don't get the character."

To hell with her playstyle, they are basic tools in order to be a character in Smash Bros. Lets compare Zelda to another "fortress" character that isn't top tier, funny enough Dabuz plays her,:

> Rosa has good overall mobility, Zelda has horrible mobility.

> Rosa's projectile is fast and annoying, Din's Fire is a meme.

> Rosa's tilts/aerials have good range, Zelda has poor range in her tilts and her aerials have abysmal hitboxes.

> Rosa can respond to and initiate aerial interactions, Zelda can't.


If a character is made for sole purpose of defense but has no way to adapt to opponents who can break through their wall or interact themselves, they do not work. was designed to be campy, yet is much better at camping. How so? Because Wolf has much more flexible attributes, while Richter is a fat bag of garbage against anybody who can reverse camp him and force him to interact. In the Rosa example I mentioned mobility as a way to be more adaptable, but even having busted options like can compensate for not having the best mobility.


Dabuz probably placed Zelda in bottom tier this time because he has realized that planking with phantom at the edge is not a sustainable strategy. Her results didn't drop per say but other characters rose above her, and she doesn't beat anyone relevant.

 

[Lacrimosa]

She's like Little Mac in the air?
Look, nAir may not be the best move but even if people fall out of it, it's not negative on hit, except maybe on Bowser who has a huge hitbox for both fAir and bAir (why nAir him?).
Zelda relies on you positioning her correctly. Her moves have good set knockback, so you can position yourserlf and set up the Phantom to occupy some space. If you can't pressure the opponent, then the player is using the Phantom ineffectively: It can 2-frame and can catch jumps and can be sent out at any time. It's not useless, otherwise people at locals will eventually lose constantly against other players up there, which is just not the case. It's pretty much implied that if you learn the MU then the char becomes worse. May be true to some extent but you can't shut down the character once the player is at a good level.

The only character where I see very little success against is Roy/Chrom (worst MU by a long shot) who have an insane air and ground-speed. But other characters can't really stuff out the Phantom, even when it is set up in front of her. This also applies to Palutena since her neutralB doesn't get throw the Phantom.

It's just weird that someone like M2K, who's also very knowledgeable, places her so differently than Dabuz who was very knowledgeable about her in the last video. Both placed her roughly at the same spot (well, mid-tier at least, which is fine).

Not sure why you're comparing Rosaluma to Zelda, though. Do both characters play the same? Not really, one is a zoning anti-zoner (Rosaluma and Gravitational Pull negates a lot of zoning tools), the other a Defensive character that doesn't anti-zone.

Not sure about the tilts as well. They seem to have good range? Dunno, maybe ithey could be better but it's not anything detrimental? There has never been a complain about her tilts up until now and prior to that it was dTilt that has some use nowadays.

 

[SwagGuy99]

The key word is the Meta. Because Luigi has pretty rough MU's vs many top-tier characters in the current meta as many of them can exploit Luigi's weakness pretty hard
and possibly just to name some. He likely goes even with a few top-tiers at best

I'd say Luigi has some trouble with and goes even(ish) with and wins slightly against .

I'm not really sure about , but I don't think any of these matchups are terrible for him but Roy and Chrom at least are slightly losing. Luigi's hardest matchups aren't even in Top Tier though, his hardest matchups are all either in high or mid tier.

 

[BitBitio]

Zelda is NOT like Mac in the air. She’s got the best spike in the game in dair, two scary kill moves that do tons of damage and fair and bair, a decently big and rewarding nair, and a disjointed killing up air. Slow startup, small sweet spots, or not, her aerials are better than Mac’s tenfold. Mac has teeny hitboxes, disproportionate lag, low power, and add it to unfavorable air mobility, he’s waaaay worse in air than Zelda. Or any other character, for that matter.

I disagree with Dabuz, Zelda may have a high learning curve, but without a doubt her kill setups, combos, and neutral can do more than many characters in this game.