Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Ziodyne 21]

So bring up We had a come at 3rd and a come in 2nd at two A-Ranked events over the past 2 Weeks. With Maister and Leon placing ahead and beating some of the best players on the world who use characters comsidered better as well.
Two characters not many people had much faith would get anywhere not too long ago. Whether you consider them high-tier is subjective at this point but you really cannot sleep on almost anyone now it seems

 

[JustCallMeJon]

Seems like 4.0.0 will be release on Wednsday according to Nintendo UK.
Bad luck to spoil it seems

Whoops! Nintendo Netherlands just announced the release date of 4.0.0 for Smash Ultimate. If the Twitter auto translate is to be trusted, it seems that 4.0.0 will be released on July 31st, GMT +2.

Thanks to @SimoPegaso for the heads up. pic.twitter.com/NY7fGRvSeU

— Will (PushDustIn) (@PushDustIn) July 29, 2019

 

[NotLiquid]

Thunder Smash doesn't seem like it's being accounted for in the Orion Stats. I'm guessing it's because it's an invitational with only a few people in attendance. Mario won't be seeing a rise, but Dark Wizzy's performance very much put the character back on the map and I expect good things moving onward.

Chrom, Lucina, Inkling and G&W should see some good positional rises based on Smash Factor 8.

 

[PK Gaming]

4.0 Soon

And so the metagame will change again. I doubt we'll see serious changes, though I hope some weaker characters get their "shot" at being meta viable. Regardless of what happens, i'm pretty satisfied with the current metagame, occasional jank aside.

 

[Lacrimosa]

And so the metagame will change again. I doubt we'll see serious changes, though I hope some weaker characters get their "shot" at being meta viable. Regardless of what happens, i'm pretty satisfied with the current metagame, occasional jank aside.

Remove ZSS's downB.
That move has much too much versatility:
-Kill confirm
-Free way out of disadvantage

I'd say this way should basically stay the same but remove the grounding. There's no reason for this move to have this property.

 

[NotLiquid]

Without knowing how Hero is going to affect the meta, there's not that much I can realistically ask for in terms of character overhauls, at the least from the mid-level. I'm generally happy with where most of the top tiers and high tiers are at. The only thing I'd really look to do is maybe re-evaluate some move properties.

Up Smash is still extremely overtuned for what it allows you to do. A Smash attack with strong KO capability and generous hitbox that's extremely difficult to punish, and also happens to be a combo tool at low percents is all sorts of busted. I know the designer's logic is that you only get the most out of it if you have a purple Pikmin, but in practice that really doesn't pan out when getting the correct lineup is incredibly easy. Either increase the BKB while decreasing the KBG on the purple Pikmin to remove its combo potential, or better yet, increase the endlag more to do that and also making it more punishable.
Flip Jump kinda needs something done about it. I couldn't be able to tell you what specifically, because this is the move that does everything, including your taxes. The "accidental" nerf it went through initially may be seen by some as the answer but I'm not so sure distance is the only issue. It's one of the deadliest spikes in the game when airborne, and on grounded opponents the move brings up all the worst memories of downward-angled Afterburner Kick, amplified to eleven.
Sonic's multi-hit moves need fixing. I feel like Sonido and KEN's performance with the character is a testament to grueling stubbornness over any innate x-factor the character may have. I kinda worry if Sonic does get fixed, he may propel back up to his Smash 4 status, but at the end of the day I'd rather want the characters to just work, even if that could spell dangerous things for the meta.
Decrease the landing frames on Plant's NAir. Brood's performance with the character may put into question just how much of a bottom feeder Plant is, but when virtually every superheavy in this game (sans maybe K. Rool) is blessed with some kind of safe neutral option I kinda question why Plant is the one working against the tide. FAir and BAir I'm not so worried about; they do what they're meant to do quite well...
... but not UAir. Three active frames with a hitbox that doesn't even cover the z-axis is kind of pitiful, even despite being Plant's best aerial. I get the sense that if you fix any of these two aerials, Plant becomes a sleeper character, and while that may work against the idea that Plant is meant to be stronger on the ground, in practice he ends up having a little too linear of a game plan for what's such a flexible kit on paper.
I'm glad the war against machines hasn't begun yet but how's about we get the head start by getting rid of the jab infinite shenanigans?
"When this baby gets a halfway decent recovery, you're going to see some serious ****."

 

[Ziodyne 21]

I dont think to many top-tiers need serious nerds right now. But here is my pick.

up-tilt. reduce its kill-power and hitboxes, possibly remove its gaunteed kill comfirm of d-throw. Maybe also weaked dash-attack. There is no need for a character like Snake to also have one of the best burst ground ptions in the game.

Fix his shield, but maybe just overall slightly tone-down his damage output overall. Why can he still take you from like 0-80+ percent in like under 5 seconds?

. Id say do like they did with ZSS' boost-kick. Reduce the knockback and power of the air full-charge waft so it does not kill at like 40-50%. While also being pretty easy to comfirm into.
Unlike Smash 4 Wario has no problem killing now even without Waft.

Speaking of crazy Down-B specials . Lits of people want to see flip-jump nerfed, but how exactly?..out of all tbe things it does what should be weakend?

 

[The_Bookworm]

Something I like people to take note of when they see the changelog for 4.0.0, is the stealth changes.

Ironically in 3.1.0, the single stealth buff applied to (manual faster jab that grants it combo potential from a frame 1 move) and (extra Witch Twist hitbox that makes the whole move connect better) turned out to be more significant than the improvements they show us through the patch notes.

The thing about stealth changes is that it is hard for people to realize it until people physically point it out to them. I bet a lot of people still doesn't know that the 3.0.0 Charge Shot shield-damage nerf also came with a stealth change that makes Charge Shot have increased shieldstun.

 

[Lacrimosa]

Without knowing how Hero is going to affect the meta, there's not that much I can realistically ask for in terms of character overhauls, at the least from the mid-level. I'm generally happy with where most of the top tiers and high tiers are at. The only thing I'd really look to do is maybe re-evaluate some move properties.

Up Smash is still extremely overtuned for what it allows you to do. A Smash attack with strong KO capability and generous hitbox that's extremely difficult to punish, and also happens to be a combo tool at low percents is all sorts of busted. I know the designer's logic is that you only get the most out of it if you have a purple Pikmin, but in practice that really doesn't pan out when getting the correct lineup is incredibly easy. Either increase the BKB while decreasing the KBG on the purple Pikmin to remove its combo potential, or better yet, increase the endlag more to do that and also making it more punishable.
Flip Jump kinda needs something done about it. I couldn't be able to tell you what specifically, because this is the move that does everything, including your taxes. The "accidental" nerf it went through initially may be seen by some as the answer but I'm not so sure distance is the only issue. It's one of the deadliest spikes in the game when airborne, and on grounded opponents the move brings up all the worst memories of downward-angled Afterburner Kick, amplified to eleven.
Sonic's multi-hit moves need fixing. I feel like Sonido and KEN's performance with the character is a testament to grueling stubbornness over any innate x-factor the character may have. I kinda worry if Sonic does get fixed, he may propel back up to his Smash 4 status, but at the end of the day I'd rather want the characters to just work, even if that could spell dangerous things for the meta.
Decrease the landing frames on Plant's NAir. Brood's performance with the character may put into question just how much of a bottom feeder Plant is, but when virtually every superheavy in this game (sans maybe K. Rool) is blessed with some kind of safe neutral option I kinda question why Plant is the one working against the tide. FAir and BAir I'm not so worried about; they do what they're meant to do quite well...
... but not UAir. Three active frames with a hitbox that doesn't even cover the z-axis is kind of pitiful, even despite being Plant's best aerial. I get the sense that if you fix any of these two aerials, Plant becomes a sleeper character, and while that may work against the idea that Plant is meant to be stronger on the ground, in practice he ends up having a little too linear of a game plan for what's such a flexible kit on paper.
I'm glad the war against machines hasn't begun yet but how's about we get the head start by getting rid of the jab infinite shenanigans?
"When this baby gets a halfway decent recovery, you're going to see some serious ****."

Have you seen Oryon recovering with Dr. Mario yesterday at the GF in France? He made it all the way back from close to the lower corner to the stage without a jump(?). Not sure about the last one. He did something with the Cape that gave him a lot of upwards momentum.
Sadly, it seems that the stream wasn't recorded properly, so I can't find the replay on Twitch despite the video being labelled as such.
Would be happy if someone is able to get the footage. I don't think I'm mistaken but a video would be great to have here.

Ziodyne 21 In my opinion, ZSS's downB shouldn't ground your opponent. It's fine to get out of disadvantage and maybe the spike but the grounding should be removed or the time you're grounded should be really short so that it only connects into Boost Kick at high percents.

 

[Kiligar]

Side Special: Please fix. The problem with these moves are too many. I can write paragraphs on how terrible these moves are. Shoddy super armor, excessively clanking, wonky hurt box detection, a reflector which is so terrible it punishes you and rarely if ever hits the opponent, and finally these moves need a bit more power.
Up Tilt: This move should actually combo reliably. Its grounded range is extremely poor, yet trying to follow up may even get you punished.
Silver Bow: Faces heavy competition from the Palutena Bow, which can do so much more most of the time. More power, speed, or less startup, or some combination of these to make it more viable in comparison to Pit’s Bow.

 

[Heracr055]

Lol the nerf ZSS train appears to have left the station, specifically on down B. She wins something and all of a sudden everyone is up in arms about her. Funnily enough she's probably unchanged or slightly buffed in 4.0

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Lol the ZSS nerf train appears to have left the station, specifically on down B. She wins something and all of a sudden everyone is up in arms about her. Funnily enough she's probably unchanged or slightly buffed in 4.0

To be fair that always the case when one incredble plays picks a character and then gets most of said characters results
I.E Joker with MKLeo. Or whatever character Tweek decides he wants to play for a tournament

 

[Thinkaman]

Rather than speculate about the immediate future, let's reflect on the immediate past: Yeah Marss is cool and all, but I think the bigger story is . I didn't get to see SF8 (I'm super busy this week, no idea how I'm going to catch any of EVO...) but I'd be super curious to hear a deep but about Maister and Regi's games.

 

[NotLiquid]

Lol the nerf ZSS train appears to have left the station, specifically on down B. She wins something and all of a sudden everyone is up in arms about her. Funnily enough she's probably unchanged or slightly buffed in 4.0

If you think ZSS' Flip Jump hasn't been a hotly debated topic in this thread since way before Marss beat MKLeo, I don't know what to tell you. Shaya had some choice insight on the move quite some time ago just because of its mildly controversial traits (and imo probably the most fair evaluation of the move in terms of why "balancing it" is probably more harder than people give credit).

Your post kind of makes it sound like people are being vindictive about balancing when all that's really happening right now is some speculation on where a balance patch could take us. Almost no one is asking for any character from mid-to-top level to get shot down into the gutter. If 4.0 passes and none of the top tiers get nerfed, I'm pretty sure most of us would live with it. I know I would, given that I feel I've seen more than enough evidence that players that main "number one contenders" like Leo, Dabuz and Marss have done more to prove that the characters they main are mortal. We're a long ways from Smash 4 where the top tiers were frustrating for reasons out of our control.

 

[Nah]

people have been complaining about flip kick since smash 4 really

something I’ve been wondering about though:

Something I like people to take note of when they see the changelog for 4.0.0, is the stealth changes.

Ironically in 3.1.0, the single stealth buff applied to (manual faster jab that grants it combo potential from a frame 1 move) and (extra Witch Twist hitbox that makes the whole move connect better) turned out to be more significant than the improvements they show us through the patch notes.

The thing about stealth changes is that it is hard for people to realize it until people physically point it out to them. I bet a lot of people still doesn't know that the 3.0.0 Charge Shot shield-damage nerf also came with a stealth change that makes Charge Shot have increased shieldstun.

Why is it that they’d bother making “stealth changes” to the game now that they’re giving us patch notes?

 

[Lacrimosa]

To be fair that always the case when one incredble plays picks a character and then gets most of said characters results
I.E Joker with MKLeo. Or whatever character Tweek decides he wants to play for a tournament

I'm pretty sure people complained about Ivysaur before Tweek played PT.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Why is it that they’d bother making “stealth changes” to the game now that they’re giving us patch notes?

Either they forgot to add the change to the patch notes or the change may be an accident (the Little Mac jab buff might be an accident).

 

[NotLiquid]

Rather than speculate about the immediate future, let's reflect on the immediate past: Yeah Marss is cool and all, but I think the bigger story is . I didn't get to see SF8 (I'm super busy this week, no idea how I'm going to catch any of EVO...) but I'd be super curious to hear a deep but about Maister and Regi's games.

Maister and Regi are very good at approximating G&W's deceptively large hitboxes. F-Tilt is kind of a wack disjoint that kills at the proper percent. It's kind of scary to contest a lot of what G&W does, because on one hand he has some moves with exceptional recovery frames, or KO moves that come out really fast. You can't really visualize G&W's blind spots the same way you can on other characters without properly understanding him, and if he suspects you've found an opportunity for a hard read, up B is the way to go. Sure, he sets himself up in somewhat of a disadvantageous position for his escape option, but G&W actually has some decent landing options between a FAir that forces attacks to come out early, a DAir that's generally safe, and a NAir which covers a lot of aerial space.

Maister particularly got a lot of mileage out of DAir, specifically in his set against Abadango. The spike startup needs to be respected, even the non-spike version off-stage is dangerous.

Also, G&W proved to have some surprisingly good ledge trapping. A wild confirm he managed to pull off was using Chef to hit Abadango after the ledge grab invulnerability wore off, and comboing that into a DAir spike which killed him extremely early.

Actually, on the topic of G&W, Salem attempted to counterpick him against ESAM at Thunder Smash II. He lost that game, but I've never seen that many up Bs in one game.

 

[Flon]

I think Game & Watch might have the best shield in the game. His Fire combos just about anyone with its +10 frame hitstun modifier. It's also an amazing answer to any attack that isn't guaranteed, which you saw with Wario's neutral air getting punished on hit. It resets situations and it's... just genuinely an abusable option with very few downsides.

He's short and incredibly tricky to approach if you don't have large disjoints that KO. This is especially noticable if you need to approach from the air too, Gluttony and Abadango looked lost, no aerial approach worked, and the only glimmers of control they found were impressive reads with Bite when Maister had stopped. There's definitely lots of match-up inexperience there, but it also proves that you really can't fight Game & Watch like many other fighters. Hardly anyone can touch his shield or combo him properly.

And his punish game is incredible in how it always puts the opponents exactly where he wants them to be, and it's such a bad position to be in. I've lost count of how many times an opponent would take up to 80% trying to find a way to get back to the ground, in doing so exhausting their double jump and taking a back air to be edgeguarded (or a down smash on landing). Maister can make some match-ups look effortless in how he shuts every option down (it was quite humorous seeing a bacon piece throw Wario off his Bike).

When this game first released, I had a sour opinion on Game & Watch due to his changes, but over time you realize that the balance team must've been having a lot of fun seeing how far they can push some of his moves beyond what you'd expect. Something else to note is that a lot of more recent match-up charts are starting to realize how threatening Game & Watch is too, he's considered quite a troubling match-up for many relevant threats.

 

[KakuCP9]

Why is it that they’d bother making “stealth changes” to the game now that they’re giving us patch notes

I think it's more of an oversight with the patch notes since some changes may not have been documented properly and can slip through the cracks without getting listed in the notes. Take SFV, there's often a ton of changes not listed in patch notes and people often have to comb through the game to double check for anything missing or inaccurate.

 

[KirbySquad101]

Some notes about Smash Factor 8, particularly the two biggest things to come from it:

1. After trying to catch up to MKLeo for so long, Marss finally managed to win a Grand Finals tournament over him, and at an A tier tournament no less; MKLeo looked a little out of his element during GF (particularly when he anticlimactically SD'd at the end), but major props to Marss and ZSS for that matter. Does this mean that ZSS needs a nerf? Maybe, but for now, I do recall Shaya writing up a post on developing counterplay against Flip Kick; if Flip Kick isn't nerfed in patch 4.0.0, I think we should focus on that first and foremost, kind of like how people have been developing counterplay against Joker and Arsene. I do think she is probably a top tier character now, or at the very least the lower end of it (where I'd also put ). She's only got one major rep, but that rep is mad good, and just dethroned the King of Smash Ultimate.

2. The other major story, and the one that I've noticed hasn't been getting nearly as much attention, but there was not only one, but TWO 's in the Top 8, and one of them made top 3, at an A tier event. And even more, Maister only dropped both of his sets to MKLeo of all players, the best Smash Ultimate player around (or maybe not? Eeeehhhhh, we'll see). I don't know if I can say G&W is a high tier; part of me doesn't want to make a knee-jerk reaction, but at the same time... he didn't JUST beat Abadango and Gluttony: He pretty much mopped the floor with both of them, two-stocking Gluttony twice, and outside of MKLeo, he only ever dropped one game against Regi Shikimi, the other player that made it into top 8. This could've been just because of a lack of match-up experience, but it doesn't change the fact that this has probably been GnW's best performance at a tournament yet. Some notes watching some of Maister's and Regi's sets:

a. NAir is a REALLY scary ledge get-up option; it's not always going to work, but against players trying to read neutral or jump get-ups, the move WILL land, and when it does, chances are the opponent will most likely be eating 40~60% damage off of non-stop strings of NAirs and UAirs. That, and GnW can use the move to cross-up on shields and then return to neutral thanks to his nutty air acceleration. This isn't a get-up option you would want to throw out all the time, but it certainly works as a mix-up option to condition players to get off your grill.

b. This sort of leads me into my second point: GnW has some potentially really insane damage output; whether it's off of a grab or NAir, the little guy is netting so much damage off of either in the forms of strings consisting of NAir, UAir, Fire, especially against giant heavyweights like (poor LeSou, Regi just did NOT let him play the game); ledge-trapping in the form of Chef can net him potentially ~20% damage, because outside of pretty much Fire and his throws, GnW's damage output is actually pretty generous for someone of his weight class: NAir does 15.6% clean, UAir does 14.4% clean, FAir does 18%, FTilt does 14.4% clean (why is the move frame 8), the list goes on and on. It can be a bit crazy sometimes to see that 20 seconds in, someone's already at kill percentages.

c. Up B is a really strong option, not just as an OoS, but as a combo breaker and pressure breaker tool: this happened a lot in Abadango's and Gluttony's sets: Everytime Gluttony got a hit with FAir at low percents, Maister would just Up B out of it to stop whatever he was doing. Whenever Abadango tried to followup Wario's or Palutena's strings, GnW would just Up B out of it. And the thing is, Fire is punishable, but is also scary to punish because the move only lasts for 36 frames, has Mr. Game and Watch go high up in the sky in any of the three directions you can launch him in, and ALSO has a DAir that kills at 110~120% at mid-height because the move had its power jacked up from Smash 4. His DAir is a large part of why challenging GnW can be dangerous, and when auto-canceled, it's hard to punish as well.

d. GnW still has generally limited approaching options, but a lot of that is mitigated by NAir, which was honestly become a lot better in terms of approaching then I first realized. The move catches jump-ins very well thanks to its hitboxes completely covering GnW, it crosses up larger bodies and is quite fast (frame 7), and jump + NAir looks like a really decent option to answer opponents grounded aggression. I noticed this when Abadango tried to hit GnW with down tilt, but Maister jumped over it and landed with NAir, which you can do because the move just has really massive reach on any side that's not below him and because once again, Mr. Game and Watch has a really nutty air acceleration.

GnW does have major problems, and I think the biggest one (aside from his obvious frailty) is a lack of a consistent anti-air kill move: NAir and UAir are too weak to kill at reasonable percents, BAir and DAir only hit directly behind and below GnW respectively, and FAir isn't exactly the most reliable move out there. It's why I've always been suggesting a buff to his UTilt over buffs to his FAir, because I still think that's easily the worst move in his toolkit right now.

But I think G&W's best strength is that whatever the opponent's doing, he always seems to have an answer for it. If you try to hog the ledge, he'll ledge trap and either 30% damage off of it, or get a kill confirm off of it. If you try to throw projectiles at him, he'll reflect or absorb it with Oil Panic. If you try to shield against him as he's landing, he'll double FAir you and reduce your shield to a size of a pea. If you try and attack his shield, he'll Fire out of it and get his own combo off of it. If you try to land anywhere near him or a roll around him to get away from the ledge, he'll DSmash and get a kill at 70%. If you try to spotdodge against him after blocking an aerial, he'll throw an USmash to get a kill at 90%. If you try to jump, he'll throw out an NAir and get a ton of damage off of it. If you try to grab the ledge against him, there's a possibility you'll be two-framed by an FTilt or a Dash attack. I don't think this is enough to make him a really strong character, but I think it mainly contributes to why fighting against G&W can feel like such a frustrating experience.

I don't know if I'm ready to call him a high tier threat just yet (I would probably place him around the top of mid tier or the bottom of high tier), but there's no denying Maister was on his A-game this tournament, and he's definitely upper-mid tier at worst. If he does do as well at EVO as he did here, I could definitely see it.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I'll cautiously throw into the thread: wait until more people get MU experience before starting the " is high tier" parade. He's not exactly a common character. If he's still performing like this 3 months from now sure he's probably high tier. But you need long term results to be up there, not a short burst.

 

[Locke 06]

Until people get consistent experience against G&W I'd be highly hesitant to claim he's jumped out of low tier.

We had this song and dance with Palutena in SSB4 where she started doing well at several large tournaments and people started hyping her up into like, upper part of mid tier. And then after a few months all of the pros got experience with her and her results dropped like a rock to the point several of her top level mains dropped her completely and she ended up at the bottom of E tier (or 45th out of 55th if you prefer).

One or even a handful of good placements doesn't move a character up out of low tier (particularly with a roster this large). Long term consistency does.

4 months later...

I'll cautiously throw into the thread: wait until more people get MU experience before starting the " is high tier" parade. He's not exactly a common character. If he's still performing like this 3 months from now sure he's probably high tier. But you need long term results to be up there, not a short burst.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Its still not consistent experience at high level, not even remotely close. Its enough to say its not low tier at this point, but there's how many top level G&W players? 2, 4? With several of them being in the same region? Whole lot of top level players haven't ever ran into one before.

Its the same situation with Bowser where we saw MU experience mattered for a top level player within the very same tournament where they faced a Bowser for the first time.

Its basic logic. Nothing to be diving into history to quote over.

 

[Rizen]

The last minute of this game is a good example of why 's so dangerous. Pichu's down a stock then vortexes Inkling for 50% off one string, Fsmashes to kill Ink at 79%, then gimps Ink at 29% with Dair to win the game. The thing about Pichu is he's either killing you or you're killing him. Pichu takes about 1.5x the self damage post patch and is the lightest character in the game.

 

[Lacrimosa]

Ok, we've gone trough chars that could need nerfs but what about characters that need buffs to some extent?
And I mean buffs, not just mere fixes (, to some extent ). The latter is also some kind of buff but it's more towards "how the character should actually be in the game).
I think it's kinda obvious that the majority thinks of characters like or but are there some other characters that still could need some buffs, in like what feels underwhelming about said character.
I could start with really underwhelming movement options.
There isn't something besides Pin that lets her do all that much and her overall speed is also toned down im comparison to Sm4sh, I believe. Don't pin me on this, I haven'T played Sm4sh all that much, especially after Corrin released. I also feel that her fAir shouldn't send the opponent upwards but instead forward. It has pretty much the same effect as her upAir but fAir doesn't really send the opponent away from the stage. Dunno, it just doesn't make sense to me how the knockback of that move works. Also, some throw combos would be really nice and make dThrow kill earlier than it does know. The animation looks much stronger than what it actually does. I don't think these buffs would make her busted really, especially now that Pin isn't that good anymore.

 

[Rizen]

Ok, we've gone trough chars that could need nerfs but what about characters that need buffs to some extent?
And I mean buffs, not just mere fixes (, to some extent ). The latter is also some kind of buff but it's more towards "how the character should actually be in the game).
I think it's kinda obvious that the majority thinks of characters like or but are there some other characters that still could need some buffs, in like what feels underwhelming about said character.
I could start with really underwhelming movement options.
There isn't something besides Pin that lets her do all that much and her overall speed is also toned down im comparison to Sm4sh, I believe. Don't pin me on this, I haven'T played Sm4sh all that much, especially after Corrin released. I also feel that her fAir shouldn't send the opponent upwards but instead forward. It has pretty much the same effect as her upAir but fAir doesn't really send the opponent away from the stage. Dunno, it just doesn't make sense to me how the knockback of that move works. Also, some throw combos would be really nice and make dThrow kill earlier than it does know. The animation looks much stronger than what it actually does. I don't think these buffs would make her busted really, especially now that Pin isn't that good anymore.

doesn't have good pokes. He's supposed to be a zoner but his projectiles are too laggy and don't lead into anything. Crown should appear back on his head automatically and both projectiles could use an endlag reduction. I think they were so scared of making K.Rool over powered that they went too far the other way.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Honestly I think buffing and improving low tiers would be the best way to handle things.

Most top-tier characters are prefectly fine and beatable the way they are moment but some can maybe have certian overtuned moves and options weakned a bit. That seems to be the way many top-tier characters are being adressed anyway.... Sans


up-tilt, DA
damage output in exchange for fixing his sheild
Flip-Kick maybe since its becoming a thing people are complaining about now.. but I think people still need to develop counterplay for it.

 

[Rizen]

I've been working on my as a secondary and this is what playing him is like: Wolf's at 120% and Pika's at 80%, it sucks, then suddenly you land a Bair and have a stock lead. Wolf's definitely more honest now but he's still over tuned in kill power. That plus his ability to be threatening at close and mid range with great air speed and tools for most any situation keeps him in top tier, imo. His recovery's not good but it gets the job done. The main thing it hurts is Wolf's ability to chase opponents offstage and thank goodness for that.

 

[Arthur97]

Even if he isn't considered the best, I'd still tone down how fast Joker gets Arsene. Perhaps make it a flat rate instead of giving pity gauge.

 

[ZephyrZ]

Oh boy, buff and nerf talk.

- Nerf my least favorite character's most annoying move. That move is just stupid and degenerate and needs to be deleted from the game.

- Fix my main's everything. Oh, and give them a few buffs while we're at it.

Okay yep I think that just about covered all my bases.
This is going to be a fun next couple days.

Spoiler

For some actually productive discussion, I do think it's a great sign that we've finally seen MKLeo's Joker fall to someone. I still feel like a character with that much versatility and clutch factor is a recipe for a top tier, but hopefully this is a sign people are starting to figure out the match up. I'll have to go take a second look at that match to see if there's anything I could possibly learn from it.

 

[boysilver400]

Could use better frame data in general, especially on his airials. Increasing his airspeed slightly could help, but I think better frame data(and fixing the stupid f-throw plat issue on BF, Lylat and PS1).

As for , he shouldn’t be nerfed too hard, but I feel like U-smash should be less spamable and maybe tone down up tilt.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

I like that the general consenus now is that people think that even the characters considered the best in the game should not be nerfed too badly, depsite how annoying they can be.

Meanwhile near the end of Smash 4 everyone was NERF BAYO TO THE GROUND, NERF CLOUD TO THE GROUND!, NERF Whomever I do not like fighting!!.

It know I keep saying this but it really is amazing how well-balanced this game is so far. We did not have any characters considered "low-tier" ever crack top 8 at relatively big events like did at Albion 4.

The best characters in the game, say Snake are no where near as dominating as Brawl MK or Smash 4 Bayo. While most low tier characters comsidered low-tier here do not seem as utterly hopless as the likes of Brawl Gannondorf or Smash 4 Puff. They at least have a fighting chance no matter how small it seems

 

[bc1910]

Kirby's frame data is already very good, he'd be better off with other buffs i.e. mobility. I don't see significant mobility buffs happening for him though. A reasonable buff might be to increase his Uthrow's KO power back to Smash 4 levels or slightly better, right now it barely kills heavies at 160 on Battlefield's top platform.

Snake is one of the most unique characters in the game and I wouldn’t want nerfs to his trapping play style. However, his CQC is far too strong for how quick it is and dash attack is a disgustingly good mid range option on a character who is already very strong at long and close range. At the very least, Utilt needs a launch power reduction and dash attack needs a few more frames of ending lag or perhaps to be made worse (or at least more predictable) at crossing up shield. Nikita is still dumb despite the previous nerfs though people seem to be getting better at dealing with it. Jury’s out on Usmash, I like the way the move works, it's extremely strong at ledge but without gutting the move completely I don't see a way for it not to be.

I wouldn't hold your breath for Flip Jump nerfs, that move has been utterly ridiculous since Smash 4 and nothing was ever done about it. At least the auto-jump is more punishable on shield now that she doesn't launch herself half the stage away when she bounces off it. There's a few ways the move could be adjusted. I think having the initial invincibility start later would be sensible to prevent its use as a free combo breaker whilst not hurting the overall utility of the move. Other options include greater ending/landing lag, shorter distance and shorter bury time, none of which I'd oppose but none of which I'd expect.

I'm fully expecting at least slight Palutena nerfs given her dominance since the game's release, though I personally don't think she needs any.

As much as I enjoy asking for buffs for a top 15 character, Greninja is in a good spot where he is. At this point he'd realistically benefit more from other top tiers getting nerfed, particularly Snake (which I'd say is rather likely).

 

[Arthur97]

Also, I'm going to call a needless Lucina nerf if just because of people complaining about poor Marth.

 

[The_Bookworm]

I know that this question is sort of off-topic, but does anyone know where to go tomorrow for the livestream of Hero's demonstration? The announcement itself didn't really give me a specific place to go.


In terms of balance of updates, basically the gist here: buff low/mid tiers and slightly nerf top tiers, as well as fixing multi-hit/move inconsistencies. Nothing unusual.
I personally really want some buffs to . She is one of my favorite characters to play in SSB4 and she is in a pretty sorry state right now.

 

[boysilver400]

Kirby's frame data is already very good

Only on his normals and bair. He has a frame 10 nair, frame 10 fair, frame 10 uair, which are all frame 13 oos, and frame 18 dair for his airials. As for specials, he has frame 14 inhale, frame 11 hammer which is frame 28 in the air, frame 23 final cutter, and frame 11 stone which is frame 29 in the air. Some of these should absolutely be faster.

In comparison, (I'm not comparing him with Jigglypuff because Puff has top 2 airspeed, and the comparison is overdone in general. Luigi has slow airspeed but fast airials for the most part) has frame 3 nair, frame 7 fair, frame 5 uair, and frame 10 dair. If Kirby has this kind of frame data he'd rise for sure. A mobility buff would be the icing of the cake.

Up-throw could definitely use an improvement as well, though.

 

[Rizen]

Only on his normals and bair. He has a frame 10 nair, frame 10 fair, frame 10 uair, which are all frame 13 oos, and frame 18 dair for his airials. As for specials, he has frame 14 inhale, frame 11 hammer which is frame 28 in the air, frame 23 final cutter, and frame 11 stone which is frame 29 in the air. Some of these should absolutely be faster.

In comparison, (I'm not comparing him with Jigglypuff because Puff has top 2 airspeed, and the comparison is overdone in general. Luigi has slow airspeed but fast airials for the most part) has frame 3 nair, frame 7 fair, frame 5 uair, and frame 10 dair. If Kirby has this kind of frame data he'd rise for sure. A mobility buff would be the icing of the cake.

Up-throw could definitely use an improvement as well, though.

Does Kirby ever use his hammer in serious matches? What are the functions if so?

 

[The_Bookworm]

Does Kirby ever use his hammer in serious matches? What are the functions if so?

Hammer Bash (and Dedede's Jet Hammer) is fairly useless in competitive play. The one main function would be shield break punishes, which the move does fairly well fortunately.

His Hammer in Brawl, however, is another story. It doesn't charge up like in SSB4/Ultimate, but the aerial version is much faster and has more favorable aerial drift, making it a deadly edgeguarding and a situational (but deadly) aerial approach option in that game. The move is overall much more practical in Brawl.

 

[boysilver400]

Does Kirby ever use his hammer in serious matches? What are the functions if so?

RK mentioned on twitter once that it's useful for ledgetrapping and I've seen him try to do so before. I hardly ever use it myself though, and just mentioned it in my post to showcase his subpar frame data.