Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

?


  • Total voters
    517

DelugeFGC

Smash Stick Space Cowboy
Joined
Jan 30, 2019
Messages
737
Location
Tennessee (US)
Switch FC
SW-2582-1162-1537
I don't think Armada's wild opinion holds that much weight, to be honest. Especially in regards to Ultimate, I'd actually call that opinion sheer lunacy and I'd also point out that Armada shouldn't be the go-to for opinions specifically on Smash Ultimate.. a game he continually keeps threatening to drop and doesn't seriously compete in.

A character having counterpick potential is still good, this is a game with a roster of (when the DLC is done, at least) 80 characters and a lot of archetypes within that roster. This is the meta for counterpicks. I'd agree in part if we were discussing Melee, but we aren't.

Just my two cents on that.
 

The_Bookworm

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 10, 2018
Messages
2,348
Paradigm Shift 2019 (C Tier)

1st: Salem:ultsnake:
2nd: Dark Wizzy:ultmario:
3rd: yeti:ultmegaman:
4th: Myran:ultolimar:
5th: Wisdom:ultduckhunt:
5th: Ozone:ultduckhunt:
7th: Welfare Pickles:ultsnake:
7th: Gomakenpi:ultolimar::ultmario:


The biggest takeaway from this event is the double Duck Hunts that both got 5th. More importantly, Duck Hunt players that aren't named Raito.

I know that Wisdom and Ozone are probably the two best USA Duck Hunts out there, but this is still notable.
 
Last edited:

VenomSnake

Smash Rookie
Joined
Feb 19, 2019
Messages
8
KEN hasn't been placed yet on the rankings right? I saw Sonido in 50A but not KEN yet, which leads me to believe hes going to place pretty high up. Hes been placing 1st with :ultsonic: since the game's launch.
 
Last edited:

The_Bookworm

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 10, 2018
Messages
2,348
KEN hasn't been placed yet on the rankings right? I saw Sonido in 50A but not KEN yet, which leads me to believe hes going to place pretty high up. Hes been placing 1st with :ultsonic: since the game's launch.
Not really. KEN hasn't really participated that much, and he got a dubious 65th at Umebura Japan Major 2019.

KEN did recently won Sumabato SP 6. However, it is a season 2 tournament. Even if it is a season 1 tournament, his victory there and 3rd placement at Umebura SP 3 is most likely not enough for even A51.
 
Last edited:

Repli.Cant

Smash Cadet
Joined
Dec 8, 2018
Messages
62
Location
The Hills of Radiant Wind
USA Duck Hunts are finally starting to make a showing hm? That's nice; more representation outside of Raito is always welcome. I've been on and off with the character since Smash 4 but in Ultimate I really, really jive with the character and their playstyle. Moreso than with Bowser Jr., I might add. I'm excited to learn more with the Duo as I keep playing them.
 

boysilver400

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 7, 2018
Messages
129
Between Raito doing very well with Duck Hunt and the two Duck Hunts getting 5th at Paradigm Shift, I’m starting to think he could be at least on the lower end of high tier(maybe high mid tier?) what might be holding him back that makes people think otherwise?
 

SwagGuy99

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 28, 2016
Messages
454
Between Raito doing very well with Duck Hunt and the two Duck Hunts getting 5th at Paradigm Shift, I’m starting to think he could be at least on the lower end of high tier(maybe high mid tier?) what might be holding him back that makes people think otherwise?
Lack of kill power is arguably his main issue. Also, his moves aren't exactly fast and his recovery isn't that great.

However, Duck Hunt has a very specific set of tools and he is able to utilize those tools very well so I don't really see him as a bad character.
 

Repli.Cant

Smash Cadet
Joined
Dec 8, 2018
Messages
62
Location
The Hills of Radiant Wind
Between Raito doing very well with Duck Hunt and the two Duck Hunts getting 5th at Paradigm Shift, I’m starting to think he could be at least on the lower end of high tier(maybe high mid tier?) what might be holding him back that makes people think otherwise?
I think this too. :ultduckhunt: has:
-Solid walling
-Can that, much like :ultsnake: Grenades, is a frame 1 explosive that he can mash to break out of combos. Not only that, it allows a constant moving hitbox to travel above or with Duck Hunt as he is moving to create pressure, as well as the application of Shield Can (where Duck Hunt sits on top of a Can and holds shield. Should any attack make contact with the Can, and by extension Duck Hunt's shield, it'll explode for some kind of pseudo-counter)
-Ability rack damage quickly when he gets a leg up on the opponent
-Good to decent ranging frame data (a frame 4 jab, frame 6 dtilt, frame 7 utilt, frame 8 ftilt)
-Kill confirms if the Can is set up right, or off of his Clay Pigeon
-Gunmen provide a variety of ranged pressure, and can body block projectiles and their corpses can last a good amount of time, where they still have a hurtbox that blocks things
-Pretty good aerials, uair and bair for killing, fair for spacing, nair has a very long lasting hitbox, dair is... ok I guess as far as decent spiking moves go.

However, he does have notable weaknesses:
-Light weight means dying early, and he can't afford to trade with Can as often unlike :ultsnake: who can trade with Grenades because of his weight
-If an opponent goes too long without dying, they will be at a % that makes killing off of Pigeon incredibly hard to do, or even impossible
-No kill throws, meaning getting grabbed at high %s isn't as scary
-Killing consistently can sometimes be an issue
-Fsmash still isn't 100% accurate and you can still fall out of it
-Recovery is slow and can be abused, but it's distance isn't really terrible, since like :ultsnake: he can directional airdodge during it to avoid incoming attacks and snap to ledge.

These are all of the top of my head, it's kind of late but I think I got most of the main points about Duck Hunt down. I have a great deal of faith in this character however, and I think Raito has proven that :ultduckhunt: is not low tier or bottom tier.
 
Last edited:

Rizen

Smash Legend
Joined
May 7, 2009
Messages
13,990
Location
United States of Russia
Can we take a minute to talk about how lucky Samsora was, getting 2 stitch faces (1.7%) and a bobomb (0.4%) this set? I feel bad for Mr.E. He might have won if not for RNG. This isn't the only time I've seen Samsora get lucky items pulls on stream. IIRC he got a bomb vs Debuz at some point too.

Anyway, most top players use several characters. There's nothing wrong with it and it can help you mix up your game. The player who usually wins tournaments in my region uses several characters and it's hard to get a download. Even putting MU CPs aside, which are important, mixing up your playstyle is a big deal.
 

NotLiquid

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 14, 2014
Messages
1,098
KEN hasn't been placed yet on the rankings right? I saw Sonido in 50A but not KEN yet, which leads me to believe hes going to place pretty high up. Hes been placing 1st with :ultsonic: since the game's launch.
Speaking of KEN, he went down 5th at a recent Japanese local. This wouldn't be so significant outside of the fact that he was 2-0'd by Brood :ultpiranha:, who won the tournament after only dropping a single game.
 

Bronze

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 16, 2006
Messages
271
Location
London/Exeter
Armadas vid literally starts with "this is for people who want to be really good, but are not good yet".

It is about improving as a player as effectively as possible, not what is best for a pro trying to win Evo to do.

So I think how the topics been discussed here so far has missed the point. It's not about winning/losing your round 1 pools match right now, or what a top player does, its about how to improve best longer term if you are serious.

If you have to play the game more often than Armada, or be better than Armada to have an opinion, then not many people would be allowed to have an opinion.
 
Joined
Mar 31, 2019
Messages
967
Location
Germany
Can we take a minute to talk about how lucky Samsora was, getting 2 stitch faces (1.7%) and a bobomb (0.4%) this set? I feel bad for Mr.E. He might have won if not for RNG. This isn't the only time I've seen Samsora get lucky items pulls on stream. IIRC he got a bomb vs Debuz at some point too.

Anyway, most top players use several characters. There's nothing wrong with it and it can help you mix up your game. The player who usually wins tournaments in my region uses several characters and it's hard to get a download. Even putting MU CPs aside, which are important, mixing up your playstyle is a big deal.
You may call this luck but this only refers to the pulling.
If you get hit by it then it's not luck at all. It's a mixed bag but that doesn't mean Samsora needed to rely on luck in order to win these matches.
 

DelugeFGC

Smash Stick Space Cowboy
Joined
Jan 30, 2019
Messages
737
Location
Tennessee (US)
Switch FC
SW-2582-1162-1537
Armadas vid literally starts with "this is for people who want to be really good, but are not good yet".

It is about improving as a player as effectively as possible, not what is best for a pro trying to win Evo to do.

So I think how the topics been discussed here so far has missed the point. It's not about winning/losing your round 1 pools match right now, or what a top player does, its about how to improve best longer term if you are serious.

If you have to play the game more often than Armada, or be better than Armada to have an opinion, then not many people would be allowed to have an opinion.
The group of people who play Ultimate more often than Armada would include everyone here who competes. Armada isn't an authority on Ultimate in any way. Results wise he hasn't even done well with the game when he has actually bothered to compete, he's never took Ultimate seriously and has threatened to drop the game several times since it came out. 97th at Genesis 6 (a FAR cry from his early Sm4sh placings, one of which was 2nd), 9th at Summit and 4th at the invitational. Two of those events had a very limited pool of people and all three were about as early meta as it gets.

So anything in that video is basically theorycraft, and I'd say it's pretty flawed. Armada is a damned good player, but his opinions hold weight in Melee, not so much here where he keeps saying he'll probably quit playing the game and has only went out of his way to seriously compete once at Genesis 6, summit and the invitational I don't look at as going out of his way to compete.

Armada streams Ultimate, he doesn't really compete in it. Even those who primarily compete at a local / regional level like myself have more invested into the game than him, he's been transparent that he hasn't even really wanted to seriously jump into the game because he keeps saying he'll drop it (Though for what it's worth, he hasn't yet) on top of it not being Melee.

If it were say, Leffen, the opinion would hold a lot more weight in this game imo.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Jul 9, 2015
Messages
1,669
Can we take a minute to talk about how lucky Samsora was, getting 2 stitch faces (1.7%) and a bobomb (0.4%) this set? I feel bad for Mr.E. He might have won if not for RNG. This isn't the only time I've seen Samsora get lucky items pulls on stream. IIRC he got a bomb vs Debuz at some point too.

Anyway, most top players use several characters. There's nothing wrong with it and it can help you mix up your game. The player who usually wins tournaments in my region uses several characters and it's hard to get a download. Even putting MU CPs aside, which are important, mixing up your playstyle is a big deal.
its not as much luck as you might think. if peach has a chance to basically pull a kill move out of thin air it is in her interest to pull as much as possible. early in season 1 peaches didnt pull often as with fair being unerfed fair they'd rather position themselves to land it. Now with bair and fair toned down peach players have moved back to their other best unfair option. some peach players such as captain zack have been pulling turnips as often as possible for months and as a result has also gotten the "lucky" results in matches.
 

|RK|

Smash Marketer
Moderator
Premium
Joined
Jan 6, 2009
Messages
4,014
Location
Maryland
I've always agreed with what Armada said about sticking with one character to grow, and I can't really see how that's wrong. His statement is basically that MUs don't matter below the top level, which is accurate.

Many players below the top level kind of complain about how good or how bad a character is, and they put so much time into counterpicking to find a quick answer. It might work short term, but you don't end up getting better as a result. Many people end up staying the same level because of this, too.

I think I'm especially biased as a Kirby main, because I don't see how Kirby players who can't even get my (inconsistent) results can blame the character for their losses. Then they switch to a different character and stay about the same level in skill.

It all depends on your goals, natch, and how good you believe you and your character are.

If you just want to win a local, and you keep getting stuck on the same point, then sure. And, if like Tweek in S4, you're recognizing that you're better than many of your opponents but you would be top level if you switched... Then also go for that.

Outside of that, it's better to stick with the one character imo.
 
Joined
Mar 31, 2019
Messages
967
Location
Germany
I think Zelda, assuming she leaves untouched, will probably fall lower (slightly) since:
1. She’s not the most popular character to pick, and her popularity appears to diminish right now.
2. Her buffs weren’t as significant (though it’s still pretty big) as someone like Dedede or Wario.
Granted, I think there are some buffs she could need. It's mostly fixing moves that needs to be addressed first, though.
Anyway, looks like Meru (Peach player, probably Top 3 in Europe with Glutonny and Scr7) is "having fun" with her again after the Twitter I posted here. Too bad he won't be at EVO since there were some problems with his visa, apparently.
Still, it's a good sign but he's also right about the thing that Peach doesn't really need a secondary.
 
Joined
Sep 7, 2015
Messages
719
I feel like refuting Armada's points directly in the video is more effective than using his competitive status in Ultimate against him, if one should prove that he is wrong in his logic.

That's not to say secondaries aren't always a bad option: At top levels of play (or arguably maybe even lower levels of play), they can work as a surprise counterpick, but more importantly imo, they can sort of act as a "reset" button to clear your mind if you are too frustrated with the current situation to think straight. I've seen this happen most notably with Dabuz, who once he clears his mind and changes up his gameplan, can really puts the hurt on his opponent. After all, the number of times he's 3-0'd reversal someone is quite frankly too many to count.

However, if you are still learning the more basic fundamentals of the game (AKA haven't quite reached the mastery of top level players yet), I feel like taking the time to understand the match-ups you're struggling with, and learning from what you're doing wrong with the character you're using is more important. Trying to look for a secondary when you're still getting the hang of the game sort of feels like applying a Band-Aid or a temporary fix to a larger issue in the end.

Then again, I'm don't play too much, so this can just be a lot of hot air XD
 

DelugeFGC

Smash Stick Space Cowboy
Joined
Jan 30, 2019
Messages
737
Location
Tennessee (US)
Switch FC
SW-2582-1162-1537
I feel like refuting Armada's points directly in the video is more effective than using his competitive status in Ultimate against him, if one should prove that he is wrong in his logic.

That's not to say secondaries aren't always a bad option: At top levels of play (or arguably maybe even lower levels of play), they can work as a surprise counterpick, but more importantly imo, they can sort of act as a "reset" button to clear your mind if you are too frustrated with the current situation to think straight. I've seen this happen most notably with Dabuz, who once he clears his mind and changes up his gameplan, can really puts the hurt on his opponent. After all, the number of times he's 3-0'd reversal someone is quite frankly too many to count.

However, if you are still learning the more basic fundamentals of the game (AKA haven't quite reached the mastery of top level players yet), I feel like taking the time to understand the match-ups you're struggling with, and learning from what you're doing wrong with the character you're using is more important. Trying to look for a secondary when you're still getting the hang of the game sort of feels like applying a Band-Aid or a temporary fix to a larger issue in the end.

Then again, I'm don't play too much, so this can just be a lot of hot air XD
I only brought it up because people were using said status as a reason to give his opinions weight. I gave my reasons why I think he's wrong.

Saying MU's don't matter until the highest levels of play is also ignorant in my opinion, and wholely untrue.
 
Last edited:

Bronze

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 16, 2006
Messages
271
Location
London/Exeter
The more interesting question for this thread is more than 1 character at the highest level. There's plenty of the biggest names who either use 1 character, or only swap off it for very select match-ups:
Mkleo - all joker with lucina only for pikachu/pichu
Cosmos - all inkling
Marss - all zero suit with perhaps Ike for pikachu/pichu, or cpt falcon because he was salty over leo's joker
Leon - all bowser
Elegant - all Luigi
Raito - all duck hunt
Tea - all pacman
Light - all fox
ESAM/MVD/Gluttony/Wadi/Samsora
Actually, most of the Japanese players in general except Tsu.

I'm sure people can quote some counter-examples (Tweek?). But overall my general impression at the moment is that its more common for top players to have a very definite main, and a secondary who is only used in very specific minimal circumstances.
 
Last edited:
Joined
May 9, 2016
Messages
655
Location
Rock Hill, SC
Armada might not be a top ultimate player but you aren’t the greatest Melee player of all time for no reason. He is very analytical and knowledgeable about smash and competition in general and he isn’t completely wrong. Until you get to top level your losses aren’t entirely because of your character rather because of you, this is something many people struggle to come to terms with. The better you get the less your shortcomings matter and character limitations start to matter but even then at that level which only a fraction of a fraction of players are at mistakes, carelessness and under/overthinking still happens because we are all human, and none of that has anything to do with your character.

I know my character has shortcomings but switching to Wolf or Palutena isn’t going to make me a better player because I personally still have shortcomings to overcome. I’ve yet to blame a loss on my choice in character because until you are near flawless as a player there is always going to be something you personally could had did better that has nothing to do with the character you are using.

When people say tiers don’t matter this is what they mean, obviously they matter your chances are better when you have a better set of tools to accomplish your goal. But a tool is only as useful as the wielder. Stretching yourself over 6 tools isn’t useful when your ability with each tool is about the same.
 

NotLiquid

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 14, 2014
Messages
1,098
I suspect the only reason Tweek can't settle on a main is because of being restless about the way Ultimate plays. Both him and ZeRo had struggled to find a character to well and truly call their own, incidentally both having similar issues with the way the metagame around Ultimate was "shaped" due to its higher focus on defensive options that encourage aggression rather than Smash 4 favoring reaction based play styles where neutral wasn't as heavy of a concept.

Maybe PT is what he needs, he seemed exceptionally happy about the PT grind paying off with that LTC performance, but I wouldn't be surprised to see him stick with Wario. I feel like he can main any top tier he'd want (well except maybe Inkling, he's admitted that he doesn't think he's capable of playing her), but that him not sticking with any one character is down to a purely personal perspective.
 
Last edited:

Zachmac

But...DRAGONS!
Premium
Joined
Nov 2, 2014
Messages
6,973
Location
Southern California
3DS FC
4210-4109-6434
NNID
AbsolBlade
Switch FC
SW-1754-5854-0794
Saying MU's don't matter until the highest levels of play is also ignorant in my opinion, and wholely untrue.
He said they don't matter that much, which is kind of true. We do often overstate how important MUs are. Individual player skill will always be important. I'll defend him on that point.
 
Joined
Apr 26, 2016
Messages
1,690
Location
Sweden
There's actually a thread for solo maining vs dual maining so it might be a good idea to move discussion there: https://smashboards.com/threads/solo-maining-vs-dual-maining.486922/

It's an important enough subject to deserve its own thread imo (I think one of the issues with Smashboards is that too much discussion is centralized in this thread instead of getting the attention they deserve).

There's so much character variety in the PGR right now, and given that we pretty much can figure out who the remaining top 20 are we're going to see more of it. Balancing in this game is pretty nice and more characters are viable than ever before (though some are better than others, like it usually is).

Speaking of characters, I wonder what people here think about Ness these days? He was hyped early on but seems to keep falling in various tier lists, and doesn't seem to be a strong contender for top 25 anymore. Thoughts?
 

The_Bookworm

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 10, 2018
Messages
2,348
Speaking of characters, I wonder what people here think about Ness these days? He was hyped early on but seems to keep falling in various tier lists, and doesn't seem to be a strong contender for top 25 anymore. Thoughts?
Ness' placement in tier lists seem similar since the beginning. I think his placement is around the same placement as characters like Mario, Yoshi, and Cloud: characters that aren't generally known for getting really high peaks in big events, but is made-up for consistently placing high in events, especially in regional and local tournaments.

Saying that he is "in the lower end of high tier" is sort of weird, considering that people nowadays have differing opinions on the exact range of high tier.
 
Joined
Mar 31, 2019
Messages
967
Location
Germany
Ness' placement in tier lists seem similar since the beginning. I think his placement is around the same placement as characters like Mario, Yoshi, and Cloud: characters that aren't generally known for getting really high peaks in big events, but is made-up for consistently placing high in events, especially in regional and local tournaments.

Saying that he is "in the lower end of high tier" is sort of weird, considering that people nowadays have differing opinions on the exact range of high tier.
But that's more because his best players don't really show up that often at big tournaments, namely FOW and Awestin. The prior achieved a 25th(?) rank at G6, though.
Now's EVO and the big five Ness players (I also count PEW from France since he's really good) are also there. Yes, it's only one tournament but they are all there. I guess this will give us a better picture of Ness and if he can compete with the other high-tiers.
 
Joined
Apr 11, 2016
Messages
1,351
Ness' placement in tier lists seem similar since the beginning. I think his placement is around the same placement as characters like Mario, Yoshi, and Cloud: characters that aren't generally known for getting really high peaks in big events, but is made-up for consistently placing high in events, especially in regional and local tournaments.

Saying that he is "in the lower end of high tier" is sort of weird, considering that people nowadays have differing opinions on the exact range of high tier.

Ness is kind of on the same grey area as the likes of Greninja. They get amazing results at locals and C-B ranks events from skilled and dedicated mains I.e F.O.W, Awestin and Bestness for :ultness:
Venia, Stroder for :ultgreninja: etc. But have not really gotten a big breakout success or "wow That character did THAT well or holy s***, THAT big upset happened" moment in big majors on the likes of :ultpokemontrainer::ultzss::ultpacman: or even like :ultluigi::ultbowser:have recently . I mean Ness is a pretty good character all and all, but seems to be fading behind the accomplishments of other characters.
 
Last edited:

The_Bookworm

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 10, 2018
Messages
2,348
With the release of PGR #21-30, as well as remembering that Raito and WaDi exists (lol), time to update my predictions list.

1. MkLeo:ultjoker:(:ultlucina::ultike::ultwolf::ultgreninja:)
2. Tweek:ultwario: (:ultwolf::ultyounglink::ultroy:)
3. Marss:ultzss:(:ultike::ultmegaman:)
4. Samsora:ultpeach:(:ultdaisy:)
5. Ally:ultsnake:(:ultmario:)
6. Nairo:ultpalutena:(:ultlucina::ultzss::ultganondorf:)
7. Shuton:ultolimar:(:ultrichter:)
8. Dabuz:ultolimar:(:ultrosalina::ultpalutena:)
9. Cosmos:ultinkling:
10. VoiD:ultpichu:(:ultjoker::ultwolf::ultsheik::ultroy:)
11. Glutonny:ultwario:
12. Zackray:ultwolf:(:ultwario::ultrob::ultpokemontrainer::ultjoker:)
13. MVD:ultsnake:
14. Shoyo James:ultchrom:
15. Light:ultfox:
16. Tea:ultpacman:
17. ESAM:ultpikachu:(:ultsamus::ultyoshi:)
18. Myran:ultolimar:
19. Kameme:ultmegaman::ultwario:(:ultsheik:)
20. Raito:ultduckhunt:(:ultinkling::ultlucina:)

Everything above #14 is the exact same as before. Considering how many top players are left to choose from for #1-20, I am now confident that Ally will indeed be in the rankings. If not, then I am not sure who is left to fill it in.
 

Rizen

Smash Legend
Joined
May 7, 2009
Messages
13,990
Location
United States of Russia
Speaking of characters, I wonder what people here think about Ness these days? He was hyped early on but seems to keep falling in various tier lists, and doesn't seem to be a strong contender for top 25 anymore. Thoughts?
:ultness: was 16th on Orion phase 1 and 13th on phase 2 so he's preforming well. Ness has some good tools including a discount Nikita in PKThunder, magnet is good in certain MUs like Snake, strong kill throw, good disjoints in aerials like Fair, Dsmash guards ledges well and longer smash charging uniquely benifited Ness' yoyo. He's not without weaknesses but his recovery isn't as bad as some people claim. Overall Ness is the solid high tier he always was imo.
 
Joined
Mar 31, 2019
Messages
967
Location
Germany
:ultness: was 16th on Orion phase 1 and 13th on phase 2 so he's preforming well. Ness has some good tools including a discount Nikita in PKThunder, magnet is good in certain MUs like Snake, strong kill throw, good disjoints in aerials like Fair, Dsmash guards ledges well and longer smash charging uniquely benifited Ness' yoyo. He's not without weaknesses but his recovery isn't as bad as some people claim. Overall Ness is the solid high tier he always was imo.
Ness players, like FOW, have started to use PK Flash in order to recover better and right know it does wonders for Ness. Or the Vegas players just sugg at edgeguarding Ness, that's also a possibility.
However, they develop ways to make use of PK Flash, a move that's widely considered useless...
 
Joined
Apr 11, 2016
Messages
1,351
I think it was mentioned that Ness current weakness are less abour his recovery and more he can stuggle to approach or get an opening vs certain characters who both have have overall better mobility and range/airiel hitboxes than him.

:ultlucina::ultchrom::ultroy::ultpalutena: for example
 
Last edited:
Joined
Mar 31, 2019
Messages
967
Location
Germany
I think it was mentioned that Ness current weakness are less abour his recovery and more he can stuggle to approach or get an opening vs certain characters who both are have overall better mobility and range/hitboxes than him.

:ultlucina::ultchrom::ultroy::ultpalutena: for example
Apparently, ATATA :ultness:won a tournament where multiple Palus took part (placing 2nd to 4th place) and FOW has multiple Palus in Vegas and beating BestNess's Palu multiple times. I don't think that this MU is anywhere as bad as it's made out to be here.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Jul 9, 2015
Messages
1,669
Joined
May 9, 2016
Messages
655
Location
Rock Hill, SC
Ness’ results have stayed steady throughout Ultimate in the high teen mid twenties range and most people have him ranked around that range which I agree with. Unlike S4 he doesn’t have a MU he simply can’t do anything in like S4 Corrin or Cloud thanks to improvements to his neutral, PKF and just the overall faster game that ultimate is. Plus those characters losing their oppressive tools help a lot.

Make no mistake Palutena is definitely a MU that can give him trouble I credit this more to the Ness players being more prepared for a harder MU than the Palu players being practiced in a winning MU (something people make the mistake of often). FOW also is simply just better than his local competition currently.

We have his big four going to Evo which will finally be a test for him since Bestness is the only one doing some traveling with him but if I may be honest I only expect FOW and Gackt to be a legitimate threat for a top 16-8 finish. Bestness has been improving as a player recently but he’s not at that level yet nor is Awestin (who unfortunately suffers from health issues and critical player flaws that hold him back right now). Either way we should still get some good Ness footage and play from them all which will be exciting.


Regarding MUs: He doesn’t have any MUs right now that just stonewall him like in 4. The contenders for his worst MU :ultshulk: is rare, particularly at the level it would actually matter. From there you have :ultlucina::ultpalutena::ultchrom: which are bothersome but nothing that can’t be overcame, especially Chrom just because of how exploitable he is.

But other than that nothing else is an issue other MUs he loses are just slightly which has never been a big hindrance and doing well/good against characters like :ultsnake: and :ultpikachu: is a good to have. Overall I am very optimistic on Ness’ currently outlook and absolutely expect him barring patches and DLC MUs to be a character you can be successful with albeit a harder one.
 

Rizen

Smash Legend
Joined
May 7, 2009
Messages
13,990
Location
United States of Russia
He said they don't matter that much, which is kind of true. We do often overstate how important MUs are. Individual player skill will always be important. I'll defend him on that point.
MUs matter. For example, I played a match against someone who went Palutena. They won game one, I won the next two then they switched to Ness and won the set. Ness is a bad MU for YL. His Fair is more disjointed than YL's sword and his frame data's better in CQC. It's one of those MUs where one character has unique tools that shut down the other character. I grinded the MU and played friendlies but couldn't beat his Ness. Then I picked up Link as a secondary and used him to win the next set. My YL's much better than my Link but there are some MUs where he gets shut down.

Even top players like Leo have Lucina for the Pika/Pichu MUs.
 

Zachmac

But...DRAGONS!
Premium
Joined
Nov 2, 2014
Messages
6,973
Location
Southern California
3DS FC
4210-4109-6434
NNID
AbsolBlade
Switch FC
SW-1754-5854-0794
MUs matter. For example, I played a match against someone who went Palutena. They won game one, I won the next two then they switched to Ness and won the set. Ness is a bad MU for YL. His Fair is more disjointed than YL's sword and his frame data's better in CQC. It's one of those MUs where one character has unique tools that shut down the other character. I grinded the MU and played friendlies but couldn't beat his Ness. Then I picked up Link as a secondary and used him to win the next set. My YL's much better than my Link but there are some MUs where he gets shut down.

Even top players like Leo have Lucina for the Pika/Pichu MUs.
No one's saying that MUs don't matter, it's just the degree to which they matter that we don't agree on. I think that unless the MU is absolutely terrible for a character, MUs only make a large difference when you and your opponent are close to the same skill level. Otherwise an MU's effect might be more subtle.

Though in all fairness, I might would have disagreed when I played Solo Zard back in Smash 4. Now that I play a character who doesn't really have "unwinnable" match ups my perspective has probably changed.
 
Last edited:

Rizen

Smash Legend
Joined
May 7, 2009
Messages
13,990
Location
United States of Russia
I got around to watching Defend the North and agree that Leon's Bowser victories were probably influenced by MU inexperience. Light got punished by tough guy for rapid jabbing and threw himself at bowser's shield over and over. Debuz ate a lot of smashes and didn't seem to know Bowser's spacing. Then in GFs Samsora showed what happens when you don't fall for Bowser's tricks (and got a bob-omb, stitchface and Mr.Saturn IDC if he pulled a lot of veggies, the odds against that are ridiculously low).

I don't mean to take away from Leon's performance; he made the right call countless times with strong reads and great spacing. Bowser does have some good tools he lacked in SSB4 and lives for-freaking-ever. He might be a high tier but it's hard to say. Zaxel also got 25th with solo Bowser supporting the character and that it wasn't just Leon being amazing.
 
Joined
Apr 11, 2016
Messages
1,351
Ness’ results have stayed steady throughout Ultimate in the high teen mid twenties range and most people have him ranked around that range which I agree with. Unlike S4 he doesn’t have a MU he simply can’t do anything in like S4 Corrin or Cloud thanks to improvements to his neutral, PKF and just the overall faster game that ultimate is. Plus those characters losing their oppressive tools help a lot.

Make no mistake Palutena is definitely a MU that can give him trouble I credit this more to the Ness players being more prepared for a harder MU than the Palu players being practiced in a winning MU (something people make the mistake of often). FOW also is simply just better than his local competition currently.

We have his big four going to Evo which will finally be a test for him since Bestness is the only one doing some traveling with him but if I may be honest I only expect FOW and Gackt to be a legitimate threat for a top 16-8 finish. Bestness has been improving as a player recently but he’s not at that level yet nor is Awestin (who unfortunately suffers from health issues and critical player flaws that hold him back right now). Either way we should still get some good Ness footage and play from them all which will be exciting.


Regarding MUs: He doesn’t have any MUs right now that just stonewall him like in 4. The contenders for his worst MU :ultshulk: is rare, particularly at the level it would actually matter. From there you have :ultlucina::ultpalutena::ultchrom: which are bothersome but nothing that can’t be overcame, especially Chrom just because of how exploitable he is.

But other than that nothing else is an issue other MUs he loses are just slightly which has never been a big hindrance and doing well/good against characters like :ultsnake: and :ultpikachu: is a good to have. Overall I am very optimistic on Ness’ currently outlook and absolutely expect him barring patches and DLC MUs to be a character you can be successful with albeit a harder one.
What about :ultcloud:I wonder? It may not be as bad an MU for Ness as it was in Smash 4. But Cloud still genreally has the combintion of mobility and reach that Ness can stuggle with. .
Also :ultjoker:once Arsene comes out I can be pretty bad for Ness as well.

Well I guess Ness still has the tools to fight back well enough. Epsicially when it comes to exploting thier recoveries
 
Last edited:
Joined
May 9, 2016
Messages
655
Location
Rock Hill, SC
What about :ultcloud:I wonder? It may not be as bad an MU for Ness as it was in Smash 4. But Cloud still genreally has the combintion of mobility and reach that Ness can stuggle with. .
Also :ultjoker:once Arsene comes out I can be pretty bad for Ness as well.

Well I guess Ness still has the tools to fight back well enough. Epsicially when it comes to exploting thier recoveries
I considered Cloud but I personally lack experience in the MU in Ultimate and there isn’t a lot of Cloud-Ness footage out there aside Cheeks vs Awestin and they play so much they are starting to play the player MU rather than the character MU, which is why I didn’t add him.

I do know the MU isn’t nearly as bad as before. The pain points, Cloud’s bair doesn’t invalidate Ness anymore thanks to parrying, Jump squat buffs letting Ness OOS faster, Ness being faster overall. Cloud can’t also initiate juggles for free with falling up air which leads less moments Ness is above him. Limit nerfs allow Ness to play out the timer and give Cloud fewer moments he’s off stage with Limit. Due to air dodge changes Cloud is actually vulnerable off stage to PKT and PK Flash, the latter forces him to recover low or air dodge through it which Ness can immediately punish and send him back off stage. Cloud still has some troublesome things such as up b out of shield which hurts Ness’ ability to press on shield and corner Cloud something Ness is good at.

Overall the MU is similar to Chrom except without the oppressive ground game, Ness is able to exploit Cloud’s weakness better than in 4 and has more room to work in neutral than before.

Joker feels fine to me, the character doesn’t straight up out range Ness without Aresen. Magnet is good against Joker in getting whiffs and over commitments out him allowing Ness to punish stuff that would normally be safe on shield for Joker. This is also great particularly at lower percentages when Joker is looking for more grabs then at higher ones. Aresen is a bit of a headache but then again who actually has a good time against Aresen? I will say Aresen is horrible for Joker when he’s launched off stage, yo-yo completely invalidates Wings of Rebellion at the ledge and Joker doesn’t have a way to get ness off the ledge as he is coming back to it (Side B gets absorbed). A interesting MU development lately as to let Joker willingly get Aresen when he is off stage with PKT or Flash by letting him Rebel’s Guard it (full charge flash instantly fill meter) then denying any chance at recovery with yo-yo (since his grappling hook let’s him stall out the move).
 
Last edited:
Top