Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Lacrimosa]

Palu would be fine; if you look at the results thread there are Palu faces everywhere:
Defend the North 2019 (437 entrants) (New York)


4. Gen |

13. Frozen

25. Phantom

25. Ice

Yeah, but that's still not the top of the top. Gen and Frozen aren't the most consistent players out there as well. At least they aren't as consistent as Naito.
It actually matters much more what the top-players choose for a character. Palu would probably "only" considered high-tier then. Of course they won't choose a character with more limited options but it still pushes certain a bit more forward than they actually deserve and latecomers like Bowser have a hard time getting in because a precedent of who's the best is already set.

 

[Iridium]

On a side note, the PGRU is going to start its top 50 reveal soon, but for now, we have the Area 51 out already. The last pick is definitely the most unfortunate.

Edit: Nevermind, we have 50-41 as well.

 

[The_Bookworm]

On a side note, the PGRU is going to start its top 50 reveal soon, but for now, we have the Area 51 out already. The last pick is definitely the most unfortunate.

Considering that SDX stopped competing as early as Frostbite 2019, I am sort of surprised that he made it to Area 51, but kudos to him. Wonder when he will ever appear in a (big) event again.
Also, ZD is pretty unfortunate. Almost made it to top 50, but left out due to sheer competition.

Edit: Numbers 41-50 is here too, so I will update that.


PGRU Season 1 (Will update as it continues)

41: ScAtt
42: Umeki
43: The Great Gonzales()
44: Tsu()
45: Nietono
46: Frozen()
47: T()
48: Fatality
49: Suarez
50: Captain L()
A51: ZD()
A51: Sonido
A51: SDX
A51: Gen()
A51: 8BitMan

 

[JustCallMeJon]

PGR 50-41
50. Captain L ()
49. Suarez
48. Fatality
47. T ()
46. Frozen ()
45. Nietono
44. Tsu ()
43. TGG ()
42. Umeki
41. ScAtt ()

 

[Nebunera]

Why is R.O.B not considered top tier?

 

[Routa]

ROB does have decent results in the states, but as far as I know he lacks them elsewhere. Also he does have one of the worst disadvantages in the game. His bad MUs from Sm4sh have stayed bad and his good MUs like Wario had become more tolerable for the opponent.

Also I remember seeing someone mentioning that Ganondorf' down-b being a good zone breaker or something. It has terrible hitbox and way too slow on the start up so it doesn't even do it's job as a zone breaker well due to either being interrupted before the move even starts or projectiles not colliding with the foot but rather going over the hitbox and hitting Dorf. Add to that it needing to be fresh and the opponent's move to be a bit staled to work and even then it doesn't beat the projectile all the time.

 

[SwagGuy99]

Bowser definitely has the tools of a high tier. Surprisingly good speed, broken neutral b, actual results, great kill power, good edge guarding, immunity to jab, an instant shield breaker move, an amazing OoS up b, decent recovery, amazing two framing, amazing down smash, a bunch of passive armor on moves etc.

Exactly what I've been saying for a while. Even if his disadvantage is mediocre and he has trouble getting off the ledge, he has way too many good tools to put him lower than low high tier.

I think some people might be hesitant to believe how good Bowser is because of how the community viewed DK when Ultimate released before realizing his strengths didn't make up for his weaknesses as many people (including me) thought they would. Having a decent kit with some combos, good kill power, and an amazing grab doesn't make up for a poor recovery, horrible disadvantage state (probably bottom 5), poor options to get off of ledge, lack of options OOS, and a hard time landing.

Bowser is kind of like that, but he can land easier due to his high falling speed which also makes his disadvantage better, recover better due to his better hitbox on his recovery and the increased vertical distance, and attack OOS better because up-b and he can even mix it up with down-b or side-b. His strengths also are better than DK, as he still has a decent kit with long ranged moves, some low% combos, high kill power, a decent grab game; however, he also has more strengths than DK such as having flame-breath, tough guy, an up-smash that grants a large portion of his hurtbox with invincibility, super-armor on all grounded moves, and faster ground movement.

 

[ZephyrZ]

Well I haven't had the time to watch all of the recent LeoN sets yet, but I did just watch him vs Marss and vs Samsora as those sounded like the two most notable.

I will say that I think Marss did get a little overly hasty when it came time to kill. There was a lot of bad grabs and hasty up smashes, especially in advantage. Hyper-aggression in advantage against Bowser works when he's in combo percent, but I feel like when it comes to ledge trapping and juggling you want to play a much more patient and reactive game. A big part of the reason his landing is so bad is because a lot of his more dangerous mix up options (namely Dair) are reactable. I feel like Samsora understood this, as I noticed him do bait out options in those situations.

Speaking of Samsora yikes that last game was a slaughter. Poor Bowser didn't get any breathing room. I can see Bowser being high-mid but after that game I have a really hard time seeing him as a proper high tier. At the very least, I think he's a character that can get counter picked pretty hard.

 

[G. Stache]

Well I haven't had the time to watch all of the recent LeoN sets yet, but I did just watch him vs Marss and vs Samsora as those sounded like the two most notable.

I will say that I think Marss did get a little overly hasty when it came time to kill. There was a lot of bad grabs and hasty up smashes, especially in advantage. Hyper-aggression in advantage against Bowser works when he's in combo percent, but I feel like when it comes to ledge trapping and juggling you want to play a much more patient and reactive game. A big part of the reason his landing is so bad is because a lot of his more dangerous mix up options (namely Dair) are reactable. I feel like Samsora understood this, as I noticed him do bait out options in those situations.

Speaking of Samsora yikes that last game was a slaughter. Poor Bowser didn't get any breathing room. I can see Bowser being high-mid but after that game I have a really hard time seeing him as a proper high tier. At the very least, I think he's a character that can get counter picked pretty hard.

Yeah I’ve been starting to pick up Chrom because characters such as Joker and Peach seem pretty brutal for Bowser honestly. I just got back from a weekly that I go to that has consistently ~90 entrants each time (want to do a write up soon because I have gotten a much clearer idea of a how I feel about a few of bowsers matchups and it would be cool to talk about Bowser with actual tournament experience under my belt) and I got smacked by a good joker main because I went solo Bowser the whole tournament. I honestly think Bowser can win against just about every character in the game, but there is a handful of characters that can just blitz Bowser’s disadvantaged state so hard that messing up even once nets a ton of damage that even Bowser has trouble catching up to. I don’t know where I’d put Bowser on a tier list personally atm. He has problems with a few characters that are definitely meta-relevant right now, and yet he’s shown that he can place very well. Top 8 or 16 are both very impressive achievements at these major events and Bowser has shown that he can reach that achievement. I think to answer the question if Bowser should be high tier or not should be based in large part around this question: does losing hard to a character like peach or joker negate Bowser from being relevant enough in the meta to be high tier in your mind? Just how bad do Bowser’s bad matchups affect his tier list placement in your mind? If you recall, Luigi back in smash 4 was considered high tier by the end of smash 4 despite losing very convincingly in the Rosalina and Mewtwo matchups. Two characters that were absolutely top tier and very meta relevant in smash 4. Personally, I still think Bowser absolutely has the tools to be a high tier threat. But I understand if someone sees something like the seemingly oppressive Peach MU as a huge roadblock for Bowser to be high tier

 

[Rizen]

Yeah I’ve been starting to pick up Chrom because characters such as Joker and Peach seem pretty brutal for Bowser honestly. I just got back from a weekly that I go to that has consistently ~90 entrants each time (want to do a write up soon because I have gotten a much clearer idea of a how I feel about a few of bowsers matchups and it would be cool to talk about Bowser with actual tournament experience under my belt) and I got smacked by a good joker main because I went solo Bowser the whole tournament. I honestly think Bowser can win against just about every character in the game, but there is a handful of characters that can just blitz Bowser’s disadvantaged state so hard that messing up even once nets a ton of damage that even Bowser has trouble catching up to. I don’t know where I’d put Bowser on a tier list personally atm. He has problems with a few characters that are definitely meta-relevant right now, and yet he’s shown that he can place very well. Top 8 or 16 are both very impressive achievements at these major events and Bowser has shown that he can reach that achievement. I think to answer the question if Bowser should be high tier or not should be based in large part around this question: does losing hard to a character like peach or joker negate Bowser from being relevant enough in the meta to be high tier in your mind? Just how bad do Bowser’s bad matchups affect his tier list placement in your mind? If you recall, Luigi back in smash 4 was considered high tier by the end of smash 4 despite losing very convincingly in the Rosalina and Mewtwo matchups. Two characters that were absolutely top tier and very meta relevant in smash 4. Personally, I still think Bowser absolutely has the tools to be a high tier threat. But I understand if someone sees something like the seemingly oppressive Peach MU as a huge roadblock for Bowser to be high tier

What would you say Bowser's MU chart looks like?

 

[Lacrimosa]

Well I haven't had the time to watch all of the recent LeoN sets yet, but I did just watch him vs Marss and vs Samsora as those sounded like the two most notable.

I will say that I think Marss did get a little overly hasty when it came time to kill. There was a lot of bad grabs and hasty up smashes, especially in advantage. Hyper-aggression in advantage against Bowser works when he's in combo percent, but I feel like when it comes to ledge trapping and juggling you want to play a much more patient and reactive game. A big part of the reason his landing is so bad is because a lot of his more dangerous mix up options (namely Dair) are reactable. I feel like Samsora understood this, as I noticed him do bait out options in those situations.

Speaking of Samsora yikes that last game was a slaughter. Poor Bowser didn't get any breathing room. I can see Bowser being high-mid but after that game I have a really hard time seeing him as a proper high tier. At the very least, I think he's a character that can get counter picked pretty hard.

For that to say, we should first look whether or not ZSS is a total different MU for Bowser than Peach.
It's possible that ZSS doesn't really have the tool to swipe Bowser away while Peach does have these tools to deal with him.

Yeah, he got slaughtered but maybe that MU is so up-hill for Bowser that LeoN has to play in literal god mode.
I don't know these MUs, but it'S still something to look at before making tier list assumptions.

 

[|RK|]

I feel like no one actually knows Bowser's MU chart. It's just the same guesses top player made until they ran up on LeoN and got cooked.

More, let's talk about Peach... We're talking about how LeoN getting bodied by Samsora (who has beaten him before, btw, and was able to adapt) shows Bowser's weaknesses & why he can't be high tier...

But Pikachu is one of the best in the game despite being mollywhopped by Peach. That's just weird to me.

 

[DelugeFGC]

Having one abysmal MU doesn't gate you out of high tier automatically, especially when that MU is a top tier many have trouble with.

2-3+ abysmal MU's in top tier, sure. But one..?

Top tier is the tier reserved for characters with mostly-unblemished MU spreads. High tier includes very viable characters who are still flawed in some way and have at least a few bad MU's, but are still very good. Bowser fits into that fine, albeit near the lower end imo.

 

[Frihetsanka]

But Pikachu is one of the best in the game despite being mollywhopped by Peach.

I'm not an expert on the Peach and Pikachu MU but don't many Peach and Pikachu mains think it's even? Like Samsora, MuteAce, ESAM.

 

[Lacrimosa]

Olimar MU chart from Myran:

Really good MU chart because he explains stuff relatively quick but still goes into details, so it's pretty fast paced despite the video length.
Characters are in alphabetical order, so the character you might be interested in should be easy to find.

 

[DelugeFGC]

Two losing MU's (slight ones, at that) and he still says he doesn't think he's top tier material and flawed?

Myran is strange.

 

[|RK|]

I'm not an expert on the Peach and Pikachu MU but don't many Peach and Pikachu mains think it's even? Like Samsora, MuteAce, ESAM.

Who knows? The tournament record says otherwise, which is my point here. We can't really just be like "ah, look at Bowser getting bodied by Peach" and ignore way more Pika/Peach sets, because one confirms what we think.

 

[Lacrimosa]

Two losing MU's (slight ones, at that) and he still says he doesn't think he's top tier material and flawed?

Myran is strange.

A trend I've seen in his MU chart (I partially watched his stream before going to sleep) is that he doesn't really loses MU but he also doesn't win the MUs that convincingly. Like, a lot of even MUs even against characters that are considered mid-tier with aspirations for high-tier ( ) and also the slightly winning section is littered with characters that still have good tools against Olimar ().
I guess that's probably why. If he's top-tier, I don't know but as far as I know, Myran also took Olimar's shield into consideration and that's clearly a big flaw in this patch version.

__________________________

Also ESAM still thinks Pika has no losing MU (except ) which is kinda questionable at the very least. Esamopinion is a meme in the community for a good reason and in Ultimate it seems to be the same way. I still think Pikachu is the best character in the game right now but ESAM is sometimes a bit too optimistic about Pika.

 

[G. Stache]

What would you say Bowser's MU chart looks like?

I’m definitely not comfortable sharing about all 70+ matchups with complete certainty lol, but I think what I’m finding is that Bowser can legit go toe to toe with almost any archetype of character. I even think Bowser wins a few matchups against top characters such as Fox and MAYBE inkling. The characters that Bowser struggles against, however, aren’t necessarily people who try to straight up camp Bowser, but rather people who can play Bowsers bait and punish game in a safer and better way than Bowser can. This is why I think Joker, for instance, will continue to be a big roadblock for the character as Joker’s game of bait and punish is much safer than Bowser’s, and honestly more rewarding once Arsene comes out. I’ll go more in depth when I get the time and talk about a few characters that I’ve been going up against for the past few weeks but a general trend I’ve been seeing is that usually characters who try to get in your face and press buttons, and characters who cannot match Bowsers damage output and cannot consistently body Bowser in neutral to make up for Bowsers damage racking have a much tougher time against Bowser. Unless you’re Luigi. Luigi just gets to press buttons against Bowser and rack up 80% off of one grab. But I guess this is what I get for using that character for the past 4 years and doing that exact same crap to others lol. But again, more on matchups and actual ratios later today

 

[DelugeFGC]

I think at this point & can be considered safely in the high tier, albeit not at the top of it.

Just my two cents. Totally not biased.

 

[Rizen]

I seem to remember Samsora beat ESAM 10-1 but that might just be Samsora>ESAM as players.

Like Shulk, I have Pikachu in high tier; he hasn't preformed anywhere near top tier levels. Part of that might be from being in Pichu's shadow pre nerfs. I've fought both Pikachu and Pichu after the patch and I'm more scared of fighting Pichu. Pikachu can be more annoying from a distance but Pichu has scarier vortexes and kills much earlier. Thunder in particular is better for Pichu because it always launches the direction he's facing, even from behind. You never have a lead vs Pichu because he can turn it around on a dime.
This might be a YL MU thing because YL outcamps them both so Pika's long range harassment isn't as bad.

 

[Frihetsanka]

I think at this point & can be considered safely in the high tier, albeit not at the top of it.

Current Falcon MU chart as of patch 3.1 now that I have plenty of data to support everything. pic.twitter.com/d8qo5FMAZf

— Griffin Miller @Frosty Faustings (@FatalityFalcon) July 23, 2019

After a lot of wishful thinking, I'm definitely convinced that Falcon is mid-tier right now. Might be bottom of high-tier once he's optimized, but its ok. That's what secondaries are for. Out at 5th at #offtherails to Wrath and Peabnut.

— Griffin Miller @Frosty Faustings (@FatalityFalcon) July 21, 2019

Fatality doesn't quite seem to agree with that idea. Interesting though that he things Lucina might lose to Falcon, while most Lucina mains seem to think she wins the matchup.

 

[bc1910]

OrionStats phase 2 should make for an interesting discussion point. After three weeks the results are starting to level out and trends are becoming clear.

Snake, Wolf and Pokemon Trainer are dominating with Peach/Daisy not too far behind. Not much has changed for three of those four but Pokemon Trainer is a new entrant into the upper echelons of the cast. Whether it's a FOTM thing, down to sheer popularity or the character is legitimately top tier, time will tell. I personally lean toward the latter but appreciate the difficulty in essentially having to learn three MUs in one, which I doubt anyone has really mastered yet.

From Zero Suit/Joker down to Mario the results are very similar with not even a 10 point difference between them. I was shocked to see Greninja at 10th after Venia's heartbreaking performance at DTN (mitigating circumstances notwithstanding, hope he is well), showing that there are still plenty of players out there putting work in with the frog and it's probably wise not to fall asleep on him just yet. Joker makes a strong storm up the rankings reaching joint 5th.

A similarly small gap is present from Inkling down to Mega Man, rounding out a clear top 19 at this point. No doubt LeoN's results are propping up Bowser's placement right now, it remains to be seen if he can hold on to his position. Fox is still doing pretty well sitting at 13th, though it's a far cry from his early top 5 dominance and shows how much his final score on phase 1 was bolstered by outdated results. I'm glad Orion is using phases to report results since it shows us a moving picture; results from the first couple of months of the game really aren't important now.

Pikachu is still floundering with only 22 points. It really does seem that his usual tier placement is not aligned with his results at all, and I honestly can't understand why since I'm completely on the side of this character being nuts. Perhaps his subtle weaknesses hold him back more than we appreciate, or it is simply down to unpopularity. Pika's results could well pick up once VoiD starts putting in work with him. The "overshadowed" argument certainly can't be used any more since Pichu has plummeted to the depths of the list with only 5 points to his name. Worth noting is that Olimar still comes in at a highly respectable 8th place, making it seem like the nerfs weren't too devastating after all.

 

[Tri Knight]

Does Chrom see more usage than Roy? I see that he's sitting on just about double the points right now.

Top 5 is exactly what I expected. Maybe even top 10. The top 10 trend is starting to settle I think.

Low key excited that LeoN is putting Bowser on the map.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

I seem to remember Samsora beat ESAM 10-1 but that might just be Samsora>ESAM as players.

Like Shulk, I have Pikachu in high tier; he hasn't preformed anywhere near top tier levels. Part of that might be from being in Pichu's shadow pre nerfs. I've fought both Pikachu and Pichu after the patch and I'm more scared of fighting Pichu. Pikachu can be more annoying from a distance but Pichu has scarier vortexes and kills much earlier. Thunder in particular is better for Pichu because it always launches the direction he's facing, even from behind. You never have a lead vs Pichu because he can turn it around on a dime.
This might be a YL MU thing because YL outcamps them both so Pika's long range harassment isn't as bad.

Nah Pikachu is not on the Shulk level of memeness, Think more more like Greninja where he has good results and is undoubtedly a strong character, but just falls shortsome super overpowering top-tier character they were hyped to be by so many players....yet
However Void has now picked up Pikachu and has been putting in work with him behind the scenes. So that can mean good things for Pika's results and current opinion. We can see if he can have a good run at EVO

 

[Lacrimosa]

Buff Corrin and the Orion stats "prove" why despite the Corrin "run" at LTC7.
She's so unfun to play right now :/.

Also buff Kirby. Also a character that appeals to me but isn't really fun in Ultimate, so I'm stuck with one character for now...

 

[Rizen]

I think long term results are always more important than short term. If we only look at Orion Stats phase 2, it shows Sonic at 20th place and YL at 26th place but that's only a 7 point difference. Looking at phase 1 YL had over 50 points more than Sonic. Seporating into a second phase helps in some ways due to patches but paints a deceiving picture for several characters, Fox being a big one. The FotM phenomenon is real and top players like Leo and Tweek, both who have been known to play several characters, have huge influences on results and popularity. If Tweek had gone mostly YL instead of PT, everyone would be claiming YL is top tier right now.

 

[The_Bookworm]

OrionStats phase 2 should make for an interesting discussion point. After three weeks the results are starting to level out and trends are becoming clear.

Snake, Wolf and Pokemon Trainer are dominating with Peach/Daisy not too far behind. Not much has changed for three of those four but Pokemon Trainer is a new entrant into the upper echelons of the cast. Whether it's a FOTM thing, down to sheer popularity or the character is legitimately top tier, time will tell. I personally lean toward the latter but appreciate the difficulty in essentially having to learn three MUs in one, which I doubt anyone has really mastered yet.

From Zero Suit/Joker down to Mario the results are very similar with not even a 10 point difference between them. I was shocked to see Greninja at 10th after Venia's heartbreaking performance at DTN (mitigating circumstances notwithstanding, hope he is well), showing that there are still plenty of players out there putting work in with the frog and it's probably wise not to fall asleep on him just yet. Joker makes a strong storm up the rankings reaching joint 5th.

A similarly small gap is present from Inkling down to Mega Man, rounding out a clear top 19 at this point. No doubt LeoN's results are propping up Bowser's placement right now, it remains to be seen if he can hold on to his position. Fox is still doing pretty well sitting at 13th, though it's a far cry from his early top 5 dominance and shows how much his final score on phase 1 was bolstered by outdated results. I'm glad Orion is using phases to report results since it shows us a moving picture; results from the first couple of months of the game really aren't important now.

Pikachu is still floundering with only 22 points. It really does seem that his usual tier placement is not aligned with his results at all, and I honestly can't understand why since I'm completely on the side of this character being nuts. Perhaps his subtle weaknesses hold him back more than we appreciate, or it is simply down to unpopularity. Pika's results could well pick up once VoiD starts putting in work with him. The "overshadowed" argument certainly can't be used any more since Pichu has plummeted to the depths of the list with only 5 points to his name. Worth noting is that Olimar still comes in at a highly respectable 8th place, making it seem like the nerfs weren't too devastating after all.

I saw the list. Some other notable things I noticed:

has skyrocketed to be 20th, outranking characters like Pac-Man, Yoshi, and Roy. Sonido's earlier performances has weighted him down from entering top 50 in the PGR, but his (plus KEN's) recent performances are really giving this character a great name for himself. Imagine when Sonic's multi-hits are fixed.
has also notably risen to 28th, outranking characters like Luigi, Lucario, and Pikachu. The small, but dedicated playerbase of Diddy has definitely put 3.1.0's buffs to good use.
has also notably risen to 34th and 38th, respectively. Cool to see that the characters seem to be revitalized after a pretty rocky start.
has curiously risen to 40th, from a previously very low placement from the previous stats. I am not entirely sure who is exactly around to push their results, especially this high, but it is cool to see.
Two of the three big faces of the early metagame (the third face being Wolf, who sits comfortably at 2nd place), has fallen off a big cliff. Ike is now at 54th (tied with Bayonetta of all characters), while Pichu has fallen off even deeper to be 57th, with characters like Sheik, Villager, and even Kirby and Piranha Plant, outranking him.


Of course, the rankings isn't completely accurate, and not a whole lot of events have occurred with season 2, but there're are something to note regardless

Does Chrom see more usage than Roy? I see that he's sitting on just about double the points right now.

Top 5 is exactly what I expected. Maybe even top 10. The top 10 trend is starting to settle I think.

Low key excited that LeoN is putting Bowser on the map.

That is strange, because I got the impression that Roy has greater representation than Chrom. A little bit confused why the two has this much of a gap.

I think long term results are always more important than short term. If we only look at Orion Stats phase 2, it shows Sonic at 20th place and YL at 26th place but that's only a 7 point difference. Looking at phase 1 YL had over 50 points more than Sonic. Seporating into a second phase helps in some ways due to patches but paints a deceiving picture for several characters, Fox being a big one. The FotM phenomenon is real and top players like Leo and Tweek, both who have been known to play several characters, have huge influences on results and popularity. If Tweek had gone mostly YL instead of PT, everyone would be claiming YL is top tier right now.

That heavily depends on how well Tweek performs with YLink. He has done decently well with the character, and has made some players express interest with him, but Tweek's performances with YLink pales in comparison to his Wario or PkMn Trainer by a big margin.

 

[NotLiquid]

Greninja is very popular at a local level so I'm not all too surprised that he's up pretty high on the list despite his downtrend in results at nationals. Even if I don't see that high spot sticking, he'll still be a decent high tier. The same goes for Ness. Mario is a character I predict is going to drop over time a little more, though I suspect he might still be in the realm of top 20, and I reckon Pikachu ought to be able to claw his way back to top 20 as well. There's quite a few characters on there that I feel do not have the theorycraft to realistically last in a more objective evaluation, including Bowser and Sonic (at least until he gets some critical things fixed), but like always, we'll see how things age.

I think the only notable thing to gauge from the stats this early is ZSS' placement. It's staggering how propped up the character has been on the back of Marss' performance alone. There's just nothing holding her down no matter what game she's in.

I also think it's high time we stop calling Pokémon Trainer a flavor-of-the-month just because they're not quite as incredible on paper as their best performance would have you think. The character is here to stay, and alongside Wolf, is probably the one character who's had the most consistent representation from day one in terms of people who play them and getting decent results. The fact that their theorycraft may not be top 10 doesn't preclude the fact that for a lot of people, they are the comfort pick, and they've earned that distinction since they get things done.

When did they began tracking for the latest phase?

 

[Rizen]

That heavily depends on how well Tweek performs with YLink. He has done decently well with the character, and has made some players express interest with him, but Tweek's performances with YLink pales in comparison to his Wario or PkMn Trainer by a big margin.

Tweek and Leo could probably win with any good character. Tweek's a wildcard. He could have picked up Roy, Bowser, YL, etc and won Low Tier City too. I'm not saying YL's top tier but rather how influential top player choices are. Tweek's also never gone solo YL like Wario and PT but his YL has won where his Wario lost.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfJLsoC-Ajo

 

[The_Bookworm]

Sorry if this is off-topic, but here is a funny little thing I found.

This only works in Pac-Man dittos (which pretty much never happens unless you live in Japan) and in a very specific situation. Nothing too notable, but it is another thing added to the devs' laundry list of glitches to fix.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

What characters would you exactly call "lower-high" tier anyway? Like... maybe. Characters cosnidered high tier either recently or since the start of the game, but do not quite have as good results as other high tiers? Thats all I got at this point with how big top and high tiers are now. Like with top tier being roughly 15 characters and top now like 20+

 

[Lacrimosa]

What characters would you exactly call "lower-high" tier anyway? Like... maybe. Characters cosnidered high tier either recently or since the start of the game, but do not quite have as good results as other high tiers? Thats all I got at this point with how big top and high tiers are now. Like with top tier being roughly 15 characters and top now like 20+

Basically everyone that has at least one player doing exceptional work with them. This of course excludes Marth.
Anyway, not going to make a list but these are characters that could potentially win an S-tier if the player repping them has a perfect day. That's quite a lot of characters but that's because this game is so balanced.

 

[bc1910]

I think long term results are always more important than short term. If we only look at Orion Stats phase 2, it shows Sonic at 20th place and YL at 26th place but that's only a 7 point difference. Looking at phase 1 YL had over 50 points more than Sonic. Seporating into a second phase helps in some ways due to patches but paints a deceiving picture for several characters, Fox being a big one. The FotM phenomenon is real and top players like Leo and Tweek, both who have been known to play several characters, have huge influences on results and popularity. If Tweek had gone mostly YL instead of PT, everyone would be claiming YL is top tier right now.

You want a moving average ideally. Short term raises the issue of FOTM characters being lauded as top tier then quickly falling off. Long term includes results from periods which become irrelevant (Fox’s early results being a big case in point) and inflates character’s positions from early success. There’s also the issue of characters like Joker getting added late and showing great results but still having lower numbers than many, simply because they were added later.

A moving average of around 4-6 months provides the best of both worlds. When Orion phase 2 is a few more weeks in we’ll have a good picture of the meta; the phase will then start to stagnate again as early performers are benefitted by outdated results.

That said, short term is arguably more important in regular sport and provides the most up to date picture of any meta. The fact that Leicester City won the Premier League 3 years ago has no relevance to their current standing.

 

[Nebunera]

are low high tier to me and i'm not biased cause i main them

other low high tiers to me are and possibly

What characters would you exactly call "lower-high" tier anyway? Like... maybe. Characters cosnidered high tier either recently or since the start of the game, but do not quite have as good results as other high tiers? Thats all I got at this point with how big top and high tiers are now. Like with top tier being roughly 15 characters and top now like 20+

i think are mid high tier and is top 20

 

[SwagGuy99]

What characters would you exactly call "lower-high" tier anyway? Like... maybe. Characters cosnidered high tier either recently or since the start of the game, but do not quite have as good results as other high tiers? Thats all I got at this point with how big top and high tiers are now. Like with top tier being roughly 15 characters and top now like 20+

I think that most people will have a pretty different list of low high tier as the line between low high tier and high mid tier (at least for me) isn't that much. For me, it's mostly characters who are clearly better than mid tier but struggle against everyone above them or characters who have tools that are comparable to a mid to high high tier but with more weaknesses.

I have more characters I believe to be low high tier than I'm listing here since I think some of them are a bit more controversial so I'm just going to list some of the more obvious ones that I think most people can agree upon. , , , , , and maybe and .

 

[boysilver400]

I thought a lot of people thought that Lucas was mid tier and that Ness was better. I don’t know that much about Lucas but I’m just wondering where high tier status comes from.

 

[Lavani]

When did they began tracking for the latest phase?

The new ranking period started June 16.

 

[KirbySquad101]

has always been interesting to me, because unlike other higher-mid/low-high tier characters and despite him being a pretty successful character for the most part, most Cloud mains seem to have a REALLY negative opinion about him, particularly Cheeks, Salt One, and Sparg0.

It's gotten to a point where people at Twitter are blowing up and rallying to make him as good as again (please no).


On a side note, be on the lookout for Smash Factor 8, which comes out in 3 days; it's got +500 players, and is fairly stacked, with players including MKLeo , Marss, Light , Maister , Sparg0 , Gluttony , NAKAT , Mr R , Mr E , and Abadango .

Hyuga, the best player in Mexico, is also going to be there, so he could get some work done.

 

[NotLiquid]

On a side note, be on the lookout for Smash Factor 8, which comes out in 3 days; it's got +500 players, and is fairly stacked, with players including MKLeo , Marss, Light , Maister , Sparg0 , Gluttony , NAKAT , Mr R , Mr E , and Abadango .

Hyuga, the best player in Mexico, is also going to be there, so he could get some work done.

I believe Palutena has been demoted to a secondary for Abadango. He primarily uses Inkling these days in most of his tournament sets and his secondaries tend to heavily rotate between Wario, MK and Palutena.