Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Not everything is made for competitive play. A better argument would be just how very few things turn you metal in general.

Considering that this is the "Competitive Character Impressions" thread I'd say the argument is sound. Besides, I also (basically) said that too. (If there are things other than a Metal Box and certain spirits that turn you metal I wouldn't know of them.)

 

[Lacrimosa]

Given Hero can get the correct speel for any situation is something that seems obvious.
You can switch through all the menus pretty fast. Granted, some aren't that useful in comp. play but it looks like you can just fish for Bounce against Mega-Man by trying to run away from him and you'll eventually get it. Once it wears of you retreat and continue the process. Hero doesn't look that slow as well.

Maybe you can't use the same spell twice in a row but then you just heal up or use Acceleratle to become even faster.


Well, we'll see but I've got a really bad feeling about Hero, not because of the 0% kill but everything else: Speed up, heal up, attack up, mobile while countering projectiles and zooming out of disadvantage.
He's basically impossible to gimp since the MP gauge fills up rather fast and I doubt a top-player will have a problem managing that.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Does anyone know when the patch (or at least the changelog) is going to drop?
I am thinking late evening, because Nintendo UK says that the Hero is going to be released at 7/31 for the UK.

 

[Lacrimosa]

Hero’s Down B menu requiring you to be able to read what it says might actually get him banned from Tournaments.

Imagine a Japanese player who doesnt read English vs an American player who can’t read Japanese in bracket, wtf are we gonna do?

— colinies (@colinies) July 30, 2019

Ban worthy?
I honestly don't think so because you can just learn it by doing. Nobody prevents you from setting your Switch to Japanese if you know you'll participate in Japan or vice versa.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Given Hero can get the correct speel for any situation is something that seems obvious.
You can switch through all the menus pretty fast. Granted, some aren't that useful in comp. play but it looks like you can just fish for Bounce against Mega-Man by trying to run away from him and you'll eventually get it. Once it wears of you retreat and continue the process. Hero doesn't look that slow as well.

Maybe you can't use the same spell twice in a row but then you just heal up or use Acceleratle to become even faster.


Well, we'll see but I've got a really bad feeling about Hero, not because of the 0% kill but everything else: Speed up, heal up, attack up, mobile while countering projectiles and zooming out of disadvantage.

Assuming that you have an equal chance of getting any given spell then there is 4 in 17 or 23%. That's not particularly high. Considering one of the spells straight up heals you I feel like this won't be the case. I still see him being very annoying though. If Bounce spam is a thing then dittos will be very amusing.

Ban worthy?
I honestly don't think so because you can just learn it by doing. Nobody prevents you from setting your Switch to Japanese if you know you'll participate in Japan or vice versa.

I wouldn't think so. There are only 17 spells so a dedicated enough player could probably memorize just those words.

 

[NotLiquid]

I'm not particularly worried about Down B. Between having to commit to a command select or cancel (which looks particularly punishable and is going to require some twitch reaction play in clutch situations), there's only a handful of times where the move pool is going to be a thing that's unable to be contested. Oomph, Psyche Up, Accelerate and Heal are the moves that most mains are going to be looking to get at any given situation given that a good chunk of the moves kind of seem like gimmicky variants of Hero's already solid set of regular moves ("Hatchet Man" basically seems to be a Warlock Punch but when is Hero ever going to go for it when his Smash attacks have random crits?).

Zoom looks like a good recovery move but RNG doesn't exactly make it one you can rely on. Bounce is only going to see use in select MUs, I can already tell Mega Man, Snake, and the Belmonts are not in a good spot. Magic Burst could pull through as a desperation move, particularly for two-framing recovering opponents, but it's going to be a risky exchange whenever the character isn't at a notably high stock or percentage advantage. Snooze's hitbox looks deceptively dangerous, I gotta admit, but at best I suspect that it's off-stage capability is only going to boil down to forcing opponents to recover high or low. Gotta admit, I can see FE Swordies hating this one.

I think what I'm more worried about is the crit frequency, and also his side special. I know Hero has a sword, but the mid-range coverage of the attack already seems to extend a generous amount. Between Zap, Frizz and any of the boost abilities from the command menu, Hero looks like a strong walling character and I kinda suspect he'll get some Olimar-level damage confirms if he plays his cards right. At the very least, it doesn't look like it'll be as braindead easy as it is to line up Olimar's formations.

 

[Rizen]

Not Hero related: Watching Smash Factor 8, it looks like people are finally figuring out Leo's Joker. Mr.R, Maister and that Inkling player, I forgot his name, all took a game off Leo and Mars beat him. Maister seemed to know the counterplay and timed Arsene out offstage by stalling and charged a smash to punish RG.

 

[Arthur97]

Considering that this is the "Competitive Character Impressions" thread I'd say the argument is sound. Besides, I also (basically) said that too. (If there are things other than a Metal Box and certain spirits that turn you metal I wouldn't know of them.)

That may be what this thread is for, but the larger picture needs to be taken into account as well for why things are the way they are (see most superheavies). Saying the move exists solely to counter the one way metal can show up in competitive is a bit narrow minded. Just because this thread only considers one aspect, doesn't mean the devs are.

And as far as I know, Metal Boxes, certain spirits, and the puddle on Kalos activate metal. I'm thinking a Pokemon might, but I have no confirmation. Might depend on if gold counts as metal. If that's the case, add Golden Plains to the list. There's also Classic mode, and I imagine there will be at least one metal battle there. And, of course, Special Smash. So, yes, it's pretty niche on all levels of play, and that's where the oddity lies.

 

[Lacrimosa]

That may be what this thread is for, but the larger picture needs to be taken into account as well for why things are the way they are (see most superheavies). Saying the move exists solely to counter the one way metal can show up in competitive is a bit narrow minded. Just because this thread only considers one aspect, doesn't mean the devs are.

And as far as I know, Metal Boxes, certain spirits, and the puddle on Kalos activate metal. I'm thinking a Pokemon might, but I have no confirmation. Might depend on if gold counts as metal. If that's the case, add Golden Plains to the list. There's also Classic mode, and I imagine there will be at least one metal battle there. And, of course, Special Smash. So, yes, it's pretty niche on all levels of play, and that's where the oddity lies.

You're probably thinking of Xerneas but this only makes you Golden, not Metal.
But the trailer/demo specifically mentioned Metal. Gold is a complete different status and I'll eat a broom if Metal Slash kills a Golden opponent.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

I notice the Hero's MP bar fills up reasonablly quick on its own, and fills up to when you git opponets with his regualr attacks. It looks like MP wont really be an issue unless you intenonally spam expensive spells, or use Magic Burst.

It looks like Hero will always have at least enough MP for a recovery move unless get paticulalry careless

 

[Θνεrτιmε]

On the topic of Metal Slash, it literally automatically kills the opponent. It sounds like something that has to be niche as hell. Imagine it was more common.

That’d be a tragedy.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

On the topic of Metal Slash, it literally automatically kills the opponent. It sounds like something that has to be niche as hell. Imagine it was more common.

That’d be a tragedy.

It will only kill Metal opponents instantly, the only competitive use it will ever have is in Hero mirror matches if they use Kaclang .

However he does have an actual move that can randomly kill you at like 0% with Thwack, but according to the vid that chance is greater depending on the amount of % the opponent has.

Also he has the cirical hit chance on his smash attacks. Wait, consider if The Hero Oomph/ Psyche Up and then manages to land a critical hit smash attack.....oh boy

Psyche Up is literally Inceneroar's Revenge. It will boost the power of your next attack nland will nto go away until you sucessfully hit the opponent

 

[Θνεrτιmε]

It will only kill Metal opponents instantly, the only competitive use it will ever have is in Hero mirror matches if they use Kaclang .

However he does have an actual move that can randomly kill you at like 0% with Thwack, but according to the vid that chance is greater depending on the amount of % the opponent has.

Also he has the cirical hit chance on his smash attacks. Wait, consider if The Hero Oomph/ Psyche Up and then manages to land a critical hit smash attack.....oh boy

I understand this but if it’s a guaranteed OHKO chance it should across the entirety of the be game, be limited in its range of effectiveness for balance purposes.

Thwack is already a 23.5% chance of even getting the move, on top of the chance for it to OHKO (undisclosed at this point) making the effectiveness in a vacuum even more limited. Not to speak on the situational aspect of it landing. It will land for sure, and salt will be poured and exaggerated but it won’t be anything crazier than pulling a 9. Can’t wait for the actual numbers to drop for this character gonna be fun to look in depth at.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

If you listen closely, you can hear the usage of Shulk, Robin, and Link all plummeting in the distance.

Seriously, I'm getting some "Ike mains when Corrin was revealed in SSB4" vibes right now. Sure you might be able to point to specific things that Shulk/Robin/Link have over Hero, but as a whole package its strongly looking like Hero just outclasses all of them.

Obviously some sort of flaw or issue could be found once we actually get hands on with him, but just judging by the presentation I'm... not sure you'd have a reason to use any of those three characters when Hero exists from a competitive point of view.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Hero looks great and is definitely not a character that will be understood quickly, with all the spell combinations and applications along with MP management it’s going to be a character that’s going to take a bit before their actual potential is realized.

I am however not really worried about his down B and the RNG factor might play against him more than help him. He has to cycle through commands fairly quickly recognizing the one he wants (or realizing he doesn’t have one he wants at all) and cancel and try again all while staying completely motionless. This isn’t something he’s going to be able to pull up on the fly. Since he can only shield out of it, that means he can jump, roll, spot dodge or use an OOS option as a means to defend himself is someone gets close enough before he can cast a spell he wants once he’s able to act out of his shield. We can already see how that can be pretty limiting on just how much terror he can inflict with his spells. The definitely look more like advantage tools (or neutral if your trying to cast a buff spell).

Things like Zoom (the warp spell) being reliable will depend on if he can cancel the menu without air dodging while off stage in the event he doesn’t roll it. Things like Sleep will depend on how well the opponent can react to it (in the video the CPU is shown cleanly jumping over Sakurai’s sleep spell and Sakurai is in a fair bit of cool down after using it). Hero’s opponents can see what your going to use as well, this can help with reactions.

Plus the whole MP management is a thing. I’d hate to see the look on ones face when they realize they tried to cast something without enough MP and getting blown up for it. (Or even misclicking on the wrong spell lol)

 

[Ziodyne 21]

If you listen closely, you can hear the usage of Shulk, Robin, and Link all plummeting in the distance.

Seriously, I'm getting some "Ike mains when Corrin was revealed in SSB4" vibes right now. Sure you might be able to point to specific things that Shulk/Robin/Link have over Hero, but as a whole package its strongly looking like Hero just outclasses all of them.

Obviously some sort of flaw or issue could be found once we actually get hands on with him, but just judging by the presentation I'm... not sure you'd have a reason to use any of those three characters when Hero exists from a competitive point of view.

Ok the Robin and Shulk comparisons are clear. But the only similarites Hero has with any of the Links is thar they have a sword and a sheild to block projectiles. I think at this point any player that mains the Link's will be sticking with them. None of them are all solid in their own right

 

[Vyrnx]

Hero's down b "language barrier" is an interesting point, but I can't imagine that the incredibly small number of people who will pour the time and resources into both learning Hero and traveling to a different country to compete with him wouldn't also be willing to put ~less than half an hour into memorizing sixteen phrases.

 

[Izanagi97]

Hero's down b "language barrier" is an interesting point, but I can't imagine that the incredibly small number of people who will pour the time and resources into both learning Hero and traveling to a different country to compete with him wouldn't also be willing to put ~less than half an hour into memorizing sixteen phrases.

Except that we already saw the spell list in English in the E3 direct

 

[Nekoo]

Or, we just make a simple rules to standardize the game in an universal language.Basically, just put all games in english, the time of the tourney.
Seems like the most simple rules to put in supermajor/International/ Continental (for Europe) tournament.

 

[Lacrimosa]

Next PGR is out:
https://www.redbull.com/us-en/pgru-spring-2019-20-11

20. Raito
19. Kameme
18. Rivers/Shoyo James
17. MVD
16. ESAM
15. TEA
14. Glutonny (wtf?)
13. Myran
12. Zackray
11. Cosmos

 

[Nekoo]

Next PGR is out:
https://www.redbull.com/us-en/pgru-spring-2019-20-11

20. Raito
19. Kameme
18. Rivers/Shoyo James
17. MVD
16. ESAM
15. TEA
14. Glutonny (wtf?)
13. Myran
12. Zackray
11. Cosmos

Glutonny only being 14 is a ****ing cime, wtf?

 

[ARISTOS]

The real question is what percentage does Psych Up powered critical hit F Smash kill Pichu at?????

 

[Ziodyne 21]

The real question is what percentage does Psych Up powered F Smash kill Pichu at?????

or the question, what would Psyche Up or Oomph powered critical hit F Smash kill Pichu at, if that will even be a thing

 

[Lacrimosa]

or the question, what would Psyche Up or Oomph powered Critical hit F Smash kill Pichu at, if that will even be a thing

Another question (maybe I missed it): Can you stack Oomph and Psyche Up or can only one spell at a time be used?


Like, if you use Acceleratle then you have to wait it out before using another downB spell?

 

[blackghost]

Hero looks great and is definitely not a character that will be understood quickly, with all the spell combinations and applications along with MP management it’s going to be a character that’s going to take a bit before their actual potential is realized.

I am however not really worried about his down B and the RNG factor might play against him more than help him. He has to cycle through commands fairly quickly recognizing the one he wants (or realizing he doesn’t have one he wants at all) and cancel and try again all while staying completely motionless. This isn’t something he’s going to be able to pull up on the fly. Since he can only shield out of it, that means he can jump, roll, spot dodge or use an OOS option as a means to defend himself is someone gets close enough before he can cast a spell he wants once he’s able to act out of his shield. We can already see how that can be pretty limiting on just how much terror he can inflict with his spells. The definitely look more like advantage tools (or neutral if your trying to cast a buff spell).

ings like Zoom (the warp spell) being reliable will depend on if he can cancel the menu without air dodging while off stage in the event he doesn’t roll it. Things like Sleep will depend on how well the opponent can react to it (in the video the CPU is shown cleanly jumping over Sakurai’s sleep spell and Sakurai is in a fair bit of cool down after using it). Hero’s opponents can see what your going to use as well, this can help with reactions.

first off the CPU got hit by the sleep spell in the air. it didnt dodge it. it affects aerial opponents making it rather unique.

second, i think you are thinking about it wrong. the hero cycling through his specials is closer in competitive application to smash 4 cloud charging limit. he forces you to approach if you dont he can get psych up, oomph (?), or accelerate off for free. yes he cannot move but it really doent matter you have to go to him. His down B is RNG but that rng is kinda neutral for both players. to play hero optimally you are going to have to not be looking for a one particular spell
you have to take what comes out of the goodie bag and make the best use of it in the moment WHILE being pressured, trying to edge gaurd, ledge trap and (god forbid) play doubles.

he's not about high execution on buttons like a bayonetta or a ken or ryu. he's a mental execution character. a series first.

 

[NotLiquid]

Pretty unfortunate that those 13 place finishes held back Cosmos in the rankings considering he's easily been one of the most consistent solo mains in the game so far, and possibly the earliest player to counter the notion that Ultimate would lean to being a game where secondaries are required. Hope he manages to put on a good showing for EVO.

Glutonny missing top 10 is a legitimate shock, but I guess he hasn't traveled enough compared to most.

 

[KirbySquad101]

From the looks of it, Tea and Gluttony haven't been to a lot of major tournaments, which is probably what kept both from reaching top 10; that said both have phenomenal track records, with Tea in particular never placing worse than 13th.

I'm a bit surprised VoiD reached top 10 over Cosmos given that his track record is more inconsistent in comparison, but stuff like getting 2nd at Genesis 6 probably helped him out a lot, I imagine.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

first off the CPU got hit by the sleep spell in the air. it didnt dodge it. it affects aerial opponents making it rather unique.

second, i think you are thinking about it wrong. the hero cycling through his specials is closer in competitive application to smash 4 cloud charging limit. he forces you to approach if you dont he can get psych up, oomph (?), or accelerate off for free. yes he cannot move but it really doent matter you have to go to him. His down B is RNG but that rng is kinda neutral for both players. to play hero optimally you are going to have to not be looking for a one particular spell
you have to take what comes out of the goodie bag and make the best use of it in the moment WHILE being pressured, trying to edge gaurd, ledge trap and (god forbid) play doubles.

he's not about high execution on buttons like a bayonetta or a ken or ryu. he's a mental execution character. a series first.

Really? I must had remembered wrong then again I watched the trailer at work so distraction likely occurred I could had sworn it jumped over it.

Fair point on the RNG factor, rather than trying to find one spell but rather using what you have is valid. My point wasn’t to illustrate Hero being stationary while his opponents camped at the other side or taking stage control while but rather the vulnerability Hero will be in when selecting a spell. Being a stationary target that cannot immediately defend themselves before getting their spell off can be troublesome when A character is coming down with an aerial and you need to do something to stop them but you wind up being stuck with the metal slash/killer spell because the pressure got to you and now your being launched off the stage. RNG will definitely favor Hero at times but also his opponents at other times.

 

[Tri Knight]

Wait, help me out here. The Hero Down-B mixes up EACH spell into one menu or is it preset menus that get switched?

Each spell seems a little too tough to get right. Especially if you have a certain playstyle you like to stick with. RNG and I do not have a great history at all.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Ok the Robin and Shulk comparisons are clear. But the only similarites Hero has with any of the Links is thar they have a sword and a sheild to block projectiles. I think at this point any player that mains the Link's will be sticking with them. None of them are all solid in their own right

Link was the weakest connection of the three to be sure. To me its the combination of blocking projectiles, using projectiles to try to force approaches (Fizzle looks reasonably rapid fire, comparable to Link's arrows and less like Robin's regular Fire spell), fairly strong sword attacks to back it up.

Less about a direct comparison and more Link maybe dropping outside outside of the top level dedicated mains? Obviously missing the bomb shenanigans or an equivalent but you get a lot of tricks out of Down B. idk like I said, weakest connection.

 

[blackghost]

Wait, help me out here. The Hero Down-B mixes up EACH spell into one menu or is it preset menus that get switched?

Each spell seems a little too tough to get right. Especially if you have a certain playstyle you like to stick with. RNG and I do not have a great history at all.

thats the skill gap. an optimal hero player will not have the option to stick with one playstyle. (s)he will need to be able to adapt to not just the opponent but whatever comes out of the goodie box. in theory heros base specials plus crits are sufficient to be an above-average character but like playing pokemon trainer if you cannot use all your options you arent maximizing what the character can do.

I really dont think RNG will play as big a factor as people think. like turnips the "low roll" isnt as bad as the high roll is good. and getting 4 bad options in a given roll seems very unlikely.

 

[blackghost]

Really? I must had remembered wrong then again I watched the trailer at work so distraction likely occurred I could had sworn it jumped over it.

Fair point on the RNG factor, rather than trying to find one spell but rather using what you have is valid. My point wasn’t to illustrate Hero being stationary while his opponents camped at the other side or taking stage control while but rather the vulnerability Hero will be in when selecting a spell. Being a stationary target that cannot immediately defend themselves before getting their spell off can be troublesome when A character is coming down with an aerial and you need to do something to stop them but you wind up being stuck with the metal slash/killer spell because the pressure got to you and now your being launched off the stage. RNG will definitely favor Hero at times but also his opponents at other times.

hero is going to get rushed down by the elite rushdown character for sure. but thats not a unique weakness. i think his biggest weakness is oos options, recovery, and his niche weakness is pocket/reflectors/psi magnet.

i cant dismiss the rng factor but i dont think hero having 4 bad options at any given time will happen nearly as much. but everyone is gonna get salty when he NEEDS to open with zoom to live and he gets it.

 

[Galgatha]

thats the skill gap. an optimal hero player will not have the option to stick with one playstyle. (s)he will need to be able to adapt to not just the opponent but whatever comes out of the goodie box. in theory heros base specials plus crits are sufficient to be an above-average character but like playing pokemon trainer if you cannot use all your options you arent maximizing what the character can do.

I really dont think RNG will play as big a factor as people think. like turnips the "low roll" isnt as bad as the high roll is good. and getting 4 bad options in a given roll seems very unlikely.

Pretty much this.

Also, I still think that most Hero mains, when pressured, will probably just abandon the command list all together for the time being. I can't read japanese, but I can say that it appears as though not only are the spells different each time you pull up the command list; but the spells are in different orders as well. Given that this literally gives you 0 chance at muscle memory like you would have with Shulk's Monado arts, having to read the list forces your view from the actual match to the command list on the bottom of the screen.

I feel like one of the problems Hero characters are going to have is when they start getting rushed down. Their other specials are good and all, but not enough to really keep somebody off you when you are in disadvantage.

hero is going to get rushed down by the elite rushdown character for sure. but thats not a unique weakness. i think his biggest weakness is oos options, recovery, and his niche weakness is pocket/reflectors/psi magnet.

i cant dismiss the rng factor but i dont think hero having 4 bad options at any given time will happen nearly as much. but everyone is gonna get salty when he NEEDS to open with zoom to live and he gets it.

Zoom's landing looks very laggy and rather predictable. Something you can punish easily if you guess where they are landing.

 

[Arthur97]

Hero's down b "language barrier" is an interesting point, but I can't imagine that the incredibly small number of people who will pour the time and resources into both learning Hero and traveling to a different country to compete with him wouldn't also be willing to put ~less than half an hour into memorizing sixteen phrases.

Why on Earth would you think they wouldn't translate the menu? Especially since as it's been pointed out, we've already seen a translated menu.

But, yay, another third party DLC fighter to do what other fighters do, but better! Gotta love obsolescence.

 

[|RK|]

Why on Earth would you think they wouldn't translate the menu? Especially since as it's been pointed out, we've already seen a translated menu.

But, yay, another third party DLC fighter to do what other fighters do, but better! Gotta love obsolescence.

They're talking about travelling to different countries, with different language settings.

Also, who does Hero make obsolete??

 

[Terotrous]

To be honest, I'm not really liking Hero's design, he basically just seems to be RNG the character. I especially hate that his attacks can randomly critical and kill you at much lower percentages than they're supposed to, like why the heck is that even a thing? Did we learn nothing from tripping?

A little RNG is occasionally fine (ie, misfire, stitchface), but I feel like there's far too much of it in the design of this character.

 

[Arthur97]

They're talking about travelling to different countries, with different language settings.

Also, who does Hero make obsolete??

Apparently the Robins. And Shulk, but that one doesn't hit me.

 

[blackghost]

Apparently the Robins. And Shulk, but that one doesn't hit me.

robin yes. shulk no. i can also make an argument for link.
also RIP robin. there's no reason to play her now.

To be honest, I'm not really liking Hero's design, he basically just seems to be RNG the character. I especially hate that his attacks can randomly critical and kill you at much lower percentages than they're supposed to, like why the heck is that even a thing? Did we learn nothing from tripping?

A little RNG is occasionally fine (ie, misfire, stitchface), but I feel like there's far too much of it in the design of this character.

we've had this since melee. peach, game and watch have been doing this for 20 years. why is this an issue now?

 

[The_Bookworm]

When checking around the Smash Bros social media about people's impression about Hero.

Online, I can see people doing nothing but talking about how broken Thwack is going to be, simply saying that it has OHKO potential at 0%. However, you then factor the fact that it is a low range, high startup move that is 99.5% of the time going to do pretty much nothing, and costs 30 MP.

Lets just say I am getting heavy King K. Rool vibes when they talk about how "ridiculous" the character is going to be.

He could be, or he could be not. He has some seemingly ridiculous strengths, but then you factor in the RNG, mobility (his aerial mobility seems very lackluster), and some aspects of his frame data.

Edit: Lets just that this character has very clear strengths, but I am sceptical on how good this character truly is.

 

[NotLiquid]

broke: Hero is just G&W, Shulk, Robin, Luigi and Link rolled into one character

woke: Hero is just Faust from Guilty Gear